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Very Alarming News Dr. Farsalinos found that diacetyl was in 74% of the e-liquids that were tested.

CaFF

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In total, 159 samples (refill liquids and concentrated flavors) were purchased from 36 manufacturers and retailers from 6 European countries and the US; they were tested for the presence of DA and AP by HPLC.

Well, considering the semi-legal status of vaping in most of the EU, who knows what those liquids may have in them. Not saying that our liquids are inherently better or safer, but it really has little relevance to OUR vaping supplies when the majority of the samples aren't from U.S. vendors.
 

Celtic Fog

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edited by me...enjoy them while you can.
 
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Celtic Fog

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edited because i give up on this subject...enjoy them while you can.
 
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Celtic Fog

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edited by me.
 
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5150sick

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I have known about these results for close to 2 months now.
So have the vendors who's juice came up dirty.
What have they done to correct the problem? Absolutely nothing!!!!

http://theohmpage.com/news/long-anticipated-research-study-results/

Dr. Farsalinos is on our side and we (vapers & vendors) actually paid for this study so we could solve this problem BEFORE the ANTZ could figure it out first. That way we are the ones that self police ourselves. We haven't been doing a very good job.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/517858-donate-dr-farsalinos-new-study.html



"Dr Farsalinos 2014-09-02 23:41
Many liquids with diacetyl came from vendors who specifically and clearly mentioned in their websites that all products are diacetyl-free. Thus, only proper testing and presentation of the testing report will ensure that these products are indeed free from these chemicals."


Dr Farsalinos posts his research on this site and this is the link to this study

http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2014/178-da-ap
 

5150sick

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Dr. F has been doing all this for us. He is the one behind the "50 scientists" pro vaping letter about the EU TPD:

http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research

THIS MAN IS ON OUR TEAM!!!

http://gfn.net.co/downloads/2014/posters/122 Farsalinos - DA_AP.pdf

"DA and AP were found in a large proportion of sweet - flavored EC liquids, at levels that were higher than the strictest safety limits but significantly lower compared to smoking."

10 to 100 times lower than smoking from what I read a month ago.
.
 

EthelMaltol

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I remember when they were first asking for donations. I planned to donate, but so much money came in so fast that the amount went over the limit. I assumed the flavors tested were to be made public. However, when the results were released, only the vendors were notified, not the customers. I was told that they were not going to tell the public to protect those vendors and to allow them to make changes. Who are they and did they make any changes? Looks like we will never know! As far as the fda goes, I do not believe they have any interest at all in keeping vapers away from diacetyl. It is vapers that are concerned. If you choose to vape diacetyl, it should be your choice, but with your knowledge, imho!
 

5150sick

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5150sick

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I remember when they were first asking for donations. I planned to donate, but so much money came in so fast that the amount went over the limit. I assumed the flavors tested were to be made public. However, when the results were released, only the vendors were notified, not the customers. I was told that they were not going to tell the public to protect those vendors and to allow them to make changes. Who are they and did they make any changes? Looks like we will never know! As far as the fda goes, I do not believe they have any interest at all in keeping vapers away from diacetyl. It is vapers that are concerned. If you choose to vape diacetyl, it should be your choice, but with your knowledge, imho!

I heard Dr. F. is not listing the vendors because he doesn't want them to be afraid to participate in the future.
I also heard that he is planning on retesting the juices that came up dirty in the future and if they aren't below the recommended allowance then he will release the names of the vendors and juices.
 

EthelMaltol

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Afraid to participate in the future? I thought the juices were purchased without the vendors knowledge that they were going to be tested? We are paying to have vendors send juice to be tested? Why aren't they paying? They are the only ones getting the results! This whole thing is starting to sound like a scam to me.
You also mentioned "below the recommended allowance", which says to me a vendor can still claim to be diacetyl FREE, if the juice is below the limit. Argh!
 

5150sick

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Afraid to participate in the future? I thought the juices were purchased without the vendors knowledge that they were going to be tested? We are paying to have vendors send juice to be tested? Why aren't they paying? They are the only ones getting the results! This whole thing is starting to sound like a scam to me.
You also mentioned "below the recommended allowance", which says to me a vendor can still claim to be diacetyl FREE, if the juice is below the limit. Argh!

I didn't speak to the doctor directly. That is just what I read elsewhere. They are trying to get the vendors to clean up their act before the FDA does it for them. The recommended allowance would be the amount that is allowed in the air at the popcorn plant where the workers would be directly inhaling it 40+ hours a week. There is also heavy metal particles in vapor but the fall below the FDA's standard for the nicorette inhaler so they are no longer a concern. We exhale some bad stuff without vaping of smoking but since it is such a small amount it doesn't matter.

http://www.churnmag.com/news/scientists-find-ecig-toxins-regular-human-breath/

Also if you want to message the Doctor he will be more than happy to answer your questions. You can post you question directly on the page where the study was announced:

http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2014/178-da-ap

Or hit him up on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/konstantinos.farsalinos

He usually gets back to people within 24 hours.
 

5150sick

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BTW He used a previous poll of vapers on ECF's favorite flavors then took the top answers and purchased many bottles from a whole bunch of different very popular vendors. Many liquids with diacetyl came from vendors who specifically and clearly mentioned in their websites that all products are diacetyl-free. So I guess the vendors didn't know as much as they thought they did. I am sure they went by what the flavor vendors told them but as long as it's under 1% the flavor vendors don't even have to mention it. This is the whole problem. Especially since some ejuices contain 20% flavoring.
 

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The main issue is that vendors (of e-liquid) take [flavor] manufacturers at their word with zero test results to prove otherwise. For those that use FlavourArt and The Flavor Apprentice, this really shouldn't be an issue as they both provide details. TFA even provides MSDS's and CAS #'s and from what Linda has repeatedly told me, their manufacturer isn't even allowed to have Diacetyl in their factory due to insurance restrictions, so if Diacetyl is present, the resulting trace amounts have catalyzed from Acetoin, even though she has also stated that it's unlikely once a flavor is mixed.

When it comes to flavors from LorAnn, Capella, FlavorWest, Fairies Finest and other select flavor providers / vendors, you're pretty much SOL as they either make a blanket statement or they won't say anything / provide proof. With these vendors, you either have to test or make a blanket statement stating that the e-liquids sold may contain X, Y, Z (better than saying nothing, or making a broad claim that you can't backup).

Hangsen & Inawera are iffy. They claim Diacetyl free (via e-mail - I've been in touch with them both), though there are flavors from both that I feel contain Diacetyl or, at the very least, Acetoin and/or Acetyl Propionyl. I did receive a report on Hangsen Vanilla, which is one that I was the most iffy on based on taste, but the report which listed the chemicals didn't indicate the presence of any of the 3; not even butyric acid which is one of the newer chemicals to surface that's being used in place of D-A-AP (which, IMO, is equally as bad if you're going to compare it - just take a look at the description of the chemical).

FlavorWest, IMO, is the biggest offender and many companies use them from what has been said. Their butterscotch flavor was one of the flavors tested by a Canadian vendor only to find that Diacetyl-Free actually meant more Diacetyl than most other flavors on the market that still contain it, which was a bit shocking.
 

Warhawk-AVG

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I heard Dr. F. is not listing the vendors because he doesn't want them to be afraid to participate in the future.
I also heard that he is planning on retesting the juices that came up dirty in the future and if they aren't below the recommended allowance then he will release the names of the vendors and juices.
That is "fair" to a point as long as the vendors that participated are informed and correct the problem, with re-submitted samples ASAP for retesting

The ones that DON'T respond for retesting...THEN go public with the list

wonder which is worse for you...tiny amounts of Diacetyl or a dozen or more mg of TAR and Carbon Monoxide
 

Jonathan Tittle

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ok well flavor west can suck a dick for lying about it

FlavorWest is, from what Sarah (a FlavorWest Rep.) said, working to test their flavors, though ultimately, the only evidence of testing at this time is an extra image upload on the flavor product page that reclaims what they were originally stating before the fiasco. They're still not providing an actual report to showcase how much D-A-AP is in each of the tested flavors.

TFA & FlavourArt are still leading the way when it comes to testing and disclosure. I'm hoping others will follow suite, though from what I've been told via e-mail from other companies, it may not happen anytime soon, if at all.
 

5150sick

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FlavorWest is, from what Sarah (a FlavorWest Rep.) said, working to test their flavors, though ultimately, the only evidence of testing at this time is an extra image upload on the flavor product page that reclaims what they were originally stating before the fiasco. They're still not providing an actual report to showcase how much D-A-AP is in each of the tested flavors.

TFA & FlavourArt are still leading the way when it comes to testing and disclosure. I'm hoping others will follow suite, though from what I've been told via e-mail from other companies, it may not happen anytime soon, if at all.


The backlash of this for the flavor companies won't only be felt from the ecig industry.
What is going to happen when their 'regular' non vaping customers decide they do not want to be cooking or baking with these sorts of chemicals.
If anything good comes of this then the public, politicians, FDA will be scaremongered into forcing these companies to do proper testing.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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The backlash of this for the flavor companies won't only be felt from the ecig industry.
What is going to happen when their 'regular' non vaping customers decide they do not want to be cooking or baking with these sorts of chemicals.
If anything come good of this then the public, politicians, FDA will be scaremongered into forcing these companies to do proper testing.

I try to be optimistic, but the FDA doesn't exactly have the best track record. Best case scenario, they require vendors to properly label products (should be a given - we shouldn't *need* the FDA to tell us to do that - it's common sense), worst case, they do absolutely nothing (not likely, they will do something, but that something is questionable at this point) in regards to chemical composition of an e-liquid.

Of course, they could require testing, though given their track record on requiring products to be tested before they hit the market and the sheer number of recalls, lawsuits and deaths that occur from products they "approve", approval isn't honestly something to tout.

We've had decades (on a smaller scale) to work with tobacco, yet the best they can come up with is remove flavoring to "save the children." In the mean time, tobacco companies continue to release new blends to market.
 

AmandaD

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I was going to say, given the previous questionnable conclusions about diacetyl inhalation, wouldn't the FDA do a definitive study showing that inhaling diacetyl actually causes popcorn lung? But, wait....it's the FDA....I guess not LOL
 

Jonathan Tittle

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I was going to say, given the previous questionnable conclusions about diacetyl inhalation, wouldn't the FDA do a definitive study showing that inhaling diacetyl actually causes popcorn lung? But, wait....it's the FDA....I guess not LOL

The FDA knows about Diacetyl. They have access to R&D teams that far exceed what Dr. Farsalinos has access to and (no offense to the Dr.) could ever dream of, yet the best we have right now are NIOSH REL's. Comparing the concentration that has been stated versus REL's, the vast majority of tobacco smokers should already have popcorn lung. So either Diacetyl is not as big an issue as is being stated, or there's more to it than just Diacetyl being present and inhaled over a period of time in certain concentrations.

Coming from the NCBI, the MS (mainstream) concentration levels of Diacetyl found were between 32.2 & 50.1 PPM, which works out to 32,200 PPB to 50,100 PPB. NIOSH REL is 5 PPB as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week and a short-term exposure limit of 25 PPB for a 15-minute time period. So that's 6,000 to 10,020x higher than the REL on the high end and 1,288 to 2,004x higher on the low end with the STEL.

If there was truly an issue and the FDA cared as much as some hope, given we have ways of modifying plants and we do it daily (whether you agree or not, GMO's are a prime example - weatherproof crops that can also fend off insects), they would do a little more.

I'm not saying there's no risk, there's risk with everything we do. But IMO, there has to be more to it than just Diacetyl is present, now you're at risk of X.
 

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I was going to say, given the previous questionnable conclusions about diacetyl inhalation, wouldn't the FDA do a definitive study showing that inhaling diacetyl actually causes popcorn lung? But, wait....it's the FDA....I guess not LOL
But the fda is omnipotent.
Lets see the giant list of safe stuff the FDA has approved (taken massive monies for) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
 

AmandaD

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The FDA knows about Diacetyl. They have access to R&D teams that far exceed what Dr. Farsalinos has access to and (no offense to the Dr.) could ever dream of, yet the best we have right now are NIOSH REL's. Comparing the concentration that has been stated versus REL's, the vast majority of tobacco smokers should already have popcorn lung. So either Diacetyl is not as big an issue as is being stated, or there's more to it than just Diacetyl being present and inhaled over a period of time in certain concentrations.

Coming from the NCBI, the MS (mainstream) concentration levels of Diacetyl found were between 32.2 & 50.1 PPM, which works out to 32,200 PPB to 50,100 PPB. NIOSH REL is 5 PPB as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week and a short-term exposure limit of 25 PPB for a 15-minute time period. So that's 6,000 to 10,020x higher than the REL on the high end and 1,288 to 2,004x higher on the low end with the STEL.

If there was truly an issue and the FDA cared as much as some hope, given we have ways of modifying plants and we do it daily (whether you agree or not, GMO's are a prime example - weatherproof crops that can also fend off insects), they would do a little more.

I'm not saying there's no risk, there's risk with everything we do. But IMO, there has to be more to it than just Diacetyl is present, now you're at risk of X.

Exactly, and that's what I was trying to say. Since correlation isn't cause, more studies need to be done.
 

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Ok I am somewhat of a noob when it comes to DIY liquid and juice ingrediants. I buy some house blends but mainly name brand juice. My BIG question is this: Is there a LIST somewhere that has a proven lab result showing which juice and which vendors use this stuff?
I use Five Pawns, Space Jam, and Suicide Bunny (among others) for instance. I love custards and caramel stuff... should I be worried?
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Exactly, and that's what I was trying to say. Since correlation isn't cause, more studies need to be done.

Indeed. Every single vendor in the US, UK and every other country can send their liquids off for testing and spend hundreds of thousands of $$ doing it and it means very little until we know more about how these chemicals truly affect us. REL's are nice to have, but they are just numbers at this point. Maybe they're valuable, maybe they're not, but given the number of "popcorn lung" cases versus the number of smokers that still smoke and the number of vapers that vape custards and heavily creamy flavors daily - that go through 15-30ml per day - they mean very little as the just numbers don't add up.

At the concentrations stated by the NCBI, tobacco smokers should be hit the hardest, as in right now. We should be seeing cases of this disease popping up at a rapid pace. At the very least, we should be seeing more cases of popcorn lung development. Unless doctors aren't sharing info and none of the doctors know what to look for (IMO, not the case), then we should have more information.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Ok I am somewhat of a noob when it comes to DIY liquid and juice ingrediants. I buy some house blends but mainly name brand juice. My BIG question is this: Is there a LIST somewhere that has a proven lab result showing which juice and which vendors use this stuff?
I use Five Pawns, Space Jam, and Suicide Bunny (among others) for instance. I love custards and caramel stuff... should I be worried?

Vendor wise, you'd have to go to the vendor to ask for certification if you're in doubt - some will have them, the majority most likely will not. The vast vast majority of all custards on the market are going to contain Diacetyl, Acetoin and/or Acetyl Propionyl - it's nearly impossible to create a custard flavor without the use or one or more of those chemicals (most use Acetoin & Acetyl Propionyl as Diacetyl itself is frowned upon due to the potential for "popcorn lung" from inhalation) as that's what gives custard it's buttery vanilla flavor. Butyric Acid is making it's "debut", so to speak, as an alternative to those chemicals, but IMO, it's no better and not a viable substitute.

While speculation is that Diacetyl = Popcorn Lung, IMO, the numbers are skewed. The # of Popcorn Lung cases .vs. the # of Smokers pales in comparison when you compare it to even one drug on the market today. Yes, we're talking inhalation versus swallowing a pill or ingesting a syrup concoction, but if tobacco smoke truly has the Diacetyl concentration levels as is stated, we should be seeing more cases of popcorn lung popping up.

Maybe we will in the future, but tobacco isn't new. It being bad for our health isn't new. Researching chemical compounds isn't new. We should have better information available.
 

EthelMaltol

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As far as I understood it, the diacetyl in tobacco is somehow being destroyed during the combustion process.
 

Vangrl

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ok I can't listen to this right now
cuz no speakers
what is their conclusion?

I wanted to try their stuff
but $22 a bottle ehhhhh

at about 1:47 on in the podcast they talk about people doing independent lab tests on M.M with positive results for diacetyl. I don't believe that S.B has responded yet. People have been asking on their facebook page but the comments get deleted immediately according to a bunch of reddit peeps.
 

cherrycakes

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well the primary flavor for mother's milk
is custard right?
not really surprised.
 

AmandaD

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Mother's milk is very custardy....draw your own conclusions. I do hope, though, that this doesn't turn into a witch hunt. And I don't *think* SC ever suggested their juice was free of this stuff, did they?
 

cherrycakes

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I would still buy their stuff
just not a custard
then again
I don't really like custard vapes so...
 

Vangrl

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Mother's milk is very custardy....draw your own conclusions. I do hope, though, that this doesn't turn into a witch hunt. And I don't *think* SC ever suggested their juice was free of this stuff, did they?
Sure just google "suicide bunny diacetyl free" you'll see almost every reseller stating that it is, as well as some ECF members claiming that they contacted her and she said no.

Agree about the witch hunt, but if there is any truth in the podcast then it should not be labeled as such.
 

AmandaD

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Sure just google "suicide bunny diacetyl free" you'll see almost every reseller stating that it is, as well as some ECF members claiming that they contacted her and she said no.

Agree about the witch hunt, but if there is any truth in the podcast then it should not be labeled as such.

True. But then again I suspect they were using flavors that they were told were diacetyl free...
 

Vangrl

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True. But then again I suspect they were using flavors that they were told were diacetyl free...
well ya but even the average vaper has known for a very long time that the flavour vendors can't be trusted and that independent testing is the only way to be truly sure. It's been plastered all over every vaper forum for the last year. Certainly the owner of one of the hottest selling e-juice companies was privy to this?
 

Warhawk-AVG

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As far as I understood it, the diacetyl in tobacco is somehow being destroyed during the combustion process.
The diacetyl molecule just like with any other molecule containing hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen change during combustion
180px-Butandion_-_Butanedione.svg.png


yeah...I did REALLY well in organic chemistry in high school...

This is why they see thousands of different chemicals in trace amount in cigarette smoking...sure each puff can be different due to the chemical chaing combining different every time, but the THREE MAJOR chemicals you get each and every time is the problem...Tar, Carbon Monoxide, and a small amount of nicotine, other than nicotine, vaping has none of that.

Remember...It's not the nicotine that is the bulk of the chemical you are getting in cigs
 

BigNasty

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The diacetyl molecule just like with any other molecule containing hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen change during combustion
180px-Butandion_-_Butanedione.svg.png


yeah...I did REALLY well in organic chemistry in high school...

This is why they see thousands of different chemicals in trace amount in cigarette smoking...sure each puff can be different due to the chemical chaing combining different every time, but the THREE MAJOR chemicals you get each and every time is the problem...Tar, Carbon Monoxide, and a small amount of nicotine, other than nicotine, vaping has none of that.

Remember...It's not the nicotine that is the bulk of the chemical you are getting in cigs
And another one you did not mention Benzene
 

MrScaryZ

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Very Alarming News Dr. Farsalinos found that diacetyl was in 74% of the e-liquids that were tested.
LINK: http://www.scribd.com/doc/238345295/Dr-Farsalinos-study-on-diacetyl-in-e-liquid
View attachment 4923
I saw the logical fallacy right off the bat what was the sample size? I love statistics they can be bastardized any way one see's fit but if the sample size was 1 or even 10 its not a large enough sample size to come to a median or any kind of statistical reality its funny as hell
 

BigNasty

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I saw the logical fallacy right off the bat what was the sample size? I love statistics they can be bastardized any way one see's fit but if the sample size was 1 or even 10 its not a large enough sample size to come to a median or any kind of statistical reality its funny as hell
it started small I think it mentioned it ended up being over 159 different juices.
 

MrScaryZ

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it started small I think it mentioned it ended up being over 159 different juices.
That is an inadequate test.. It would have to be broken down by flavor , flavor manufacturer, Nicotine provider, PG /VG vendor etc...
159 what juices? who's? it begs the question even if they had that was it tested once twice for flaws was the lab testing equipment up to spec was it certified... Just propaganda someone is being paid to put this crap out
 

BigNasty

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I was going to say, given the previous questionnable conclusions about diacetyl inhalation, wouldn't the FDA do a definitive study showing that inhaling diacetyl actually causes popcorn lung? But, wait....it's the FDA....I guess not LOL
Sure if you want to be a lab rat for them to test it out on you.
I know for a damned fact they pushed the same chemo regime on certain cancers no matter what... only 5 years after they started to say "hey this is fucked they are all dead anyways! maybe we pushed to much of this toxic shit!"

Hey they approved phen phen also and thalomide looks how god damned fantastic those turned out... even with their testing.
 

MrScaryZ

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Sure if you want to be a lab rat for them to test it out on you.
I know for a damned fact they pushed the same chemo regime on certain cancers no matter what... only 5 years after they started to say "hey this is fucked they are all dead anyways! maybe we pushed to much of this toxic shit!"

Hey they approved phen phen also and thalomide looks how god damned fantastic those turned out... even with their testing.
Yes in humorous how some jump on a bandwagon just look at any prescription drug there are more harmful then the benefit they provide. This may increase you chance for cancer, high blood pressure... Ohh by the way you head may explode.. like in the movie Scanners weeeee!
 

BigNasty

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Yes in humorous how some jump on a bandwagon just look at any prescription drug there are more harmful then the benefit they provide. This may increase you chance for cancer, high blood pressure... Ohh by the way you head may explode.. like in the movie Scanners weeeee!
Except when you are facing cancer and the MDeity looks you in the face and tell you without the FDA mandated poison in these FDA mandated levels that they have to give everyone because the FDA deems it so no matter what or you are fucking dead in 6 months.... Or they will refuse to treat you further.
I know and have witnessed this bullshit first hand and wish many of pain filled slow deaths on the MDeities and the entire FDA daily because of it.
 

MrScaryZ

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Except when you are facing cancer and the MDeity looks you in the face and tell you without the FDA mandated poison in these FDA mandated levels that they have to give everyone because the FDA deems it so no matter what or you are fucking dead in 6 months.... Or they will refuse to treat you further.
I know and have witnessed this bullshit first hand and wish many of pain filled slow deaths on the MDeities and the entire FDA daily because of it.
So have I my friend.... Whats sad is oversees there are treatments and cures for many things the FDA will not approve political agenda's money talks bullshit walks... I always ask people if I get into a fray about this topic... I ask them Why are syringes made of plastic? And they say its safer they can be disposed..... Actually the truth is its cheaper for them to make them you cannot sterilize them and in the long run they know that people that have aids or illnesses or cannot affort to buy them will resuse them spread disease and make more money... Not my opinion a fact... :)
 
If these kinds of studies are done, Whoopee. They only do any good if the companies that test positive are outed. Diacetyl is YUMMY. It is the crack of the vaping world. Slimy capitalists will never give it up cause it SELLS juice. This Doctor and any other Doctor that runs tests like this, If they are truly on OUR side then they won't continue this type of "FEARMONGERING" that happens when you tell a large group of people that there is "something" bad out there, but then not tell them where. Only consumer pressure with force these companies to change their ingredients, and hurt their bottom line. And the companies that "SWEAR"" their eliquid is Diacetyl free and ISN'T should be prosecuted. Come on realy people, ANY experienced vaper can crack the seal on a bottle that contains just a few % DA AP and know immediately. And yet companies like 5 Pawns "SWEAR" that none of their juice contains it. Gimme a Break, I love Gambit, but it sure as he!! contains DA.

If these scientists are on our side they need to quit Protecting the unscrupulous vendors and manufacturers.

BTW, It is nice to meet you all, This is my first post :)
 

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