Become a Patron!

Testing for Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl, How its done, What is meaningful testing? Flavor Vendors

UncleRJ

Will write reviews for Beer!
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Reviewer
Moderator
Thanks for your input HIC!

It will be a while yet before I take the plunge into DIY.

Which will give me plenty of time for study before I start purchasing the gear and liquids I will need.

But I do think that eventually, there will be list to be found here with all of the good DIY folks like yourself contributing what they find.
 

cherrycakes

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
9. The easiest way to remove the issue, is to test the flavor vendors. And have branding of the flavor vendors, on the finished juices. Liquid Company X, we use exclusively Cappella V2, and Flavour Art E-Cig line.
Juice vendors won't even disclose their proprietary vg/pg percentage. I have trouble seeing them revealing their exact flavoring brands because then everyone will realize they can clone the stuff at home for far cheaper
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
Diacetyl detection during the 1940-50s - some enlightening information!

By the 1950s, several chemical methods were used to detect and measure diacetyl concentrations in different solutions, from food products to human blood, with sensitivity down to a single part per million. Prill and Hammer's method accurately detected diacetyl at concentrations as low as 0.2 parts per million.

Several available methods are briefly mentioned in this 1953 article from the journal of Analytical Chemistry: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac60081a020 . Although you can view only the first page for free, the names of the scientists who developed earlier methods (and a brief description of each) are included on that page.

One chemical method was published in 1943 by Stolz and Raborg. Here is their full article from the 1943 Journal of Biologic Chemistry: http://www.jbc.org/content/150/1/25.full.pdf . It described their methods for detecting and measuring acetoin and diacetyl. When they determined that this method (which detects amounts to 1 ppm) was accounting for only 88% of the actual diacetyl in a solution, they determined that wasn't accurate enough.

Two thoughts:
* parts per million precision on diacetyl detection has existed more than 60 years - it's not unreasonable to expect ppm testing now - especially when a typical modern lab can now measure to parts per billion or better. In other words, this ain't rocket science.

* Who knows - maybe a home chemistry hobbyist will read those articles and devise a method vapers or vendors could use as an alternative to expensive lab spectrometry services. Even a rough measure (ppm) is better than the "it's not there - trust that or not" we get from most manufacturers and vendors.

I've long wished a chemical dipstick could be developed to detect diketones - sure would make it easy, wouldn't it?
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
What I don't understand is the other flavoring manufacturers. They are not providing lab tests. They should be held accountable as well. Most of these flavor companies only produce for ecig companies.

Examples of flavoring companies such as: Inawera, Hangsen and so forth.

Why in the world would a company pay Big Bucks for testing - when they don't have to? No law exists, and their sales aren't hurting. We may find that ethically distasteful, but if there is no legal- or profit-related motivation, they have no reason to spend the money.

(Even IF there were regulation here, remember Inawera and Hangsen are not U.S. companies. Neither of them is suffering massive loss of sales due to lack of ingredient disclosure, either.)
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Unlisted Vendor
Why in the world would a company pay Big Bucks for testing - when they don't have to? No law exists, and their sales aren't hurting. We may find that ethically distasteful, but if there is no legal- or profit-related motivation, they have no reason to spend the money.

(Even IF there were regulation here, remember Inawera and Hangsen are not U.S. companies. Neither of them is suffering massive loss of sales due to lack of ingredient disclosure, either.)
I agree, except for one thing. If an e liquid company claims to be 100% diacetyl free, as has been said, they are opening up the door for litigation. I'll be interested to see if that claim quietly drops from some sites.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Unlisted Vendor
Also... I know we live in a society that is litigation happy, and excessively so, however if I am being told I'm purchasing something that is free from a chemical harmful to my health, by all means, they deserve what they get. If I were a vendor, at this point I would at least rephrase things, though sales might decline, it is the ethical thing to do, and cheaper than fighting a class action lawsuit. Simply a change to "all our liquids are free of diacetyl as per the knowledge provided to us" would suffice. I know it won't happen, but these companies better be careful if serious health consequences arise as a result.

I am choosing to vape, and to vape flavors that are known to be common offenders, but my liquid claims to be diacetyl free. From Mod Envy on Saturday, and this thread, I doubt the truth of that. I will acknowledge that I am still making the decision to vape, though. I just don't like false claims. If they don't receive transparency from their flavoring sources, don't make a claim that can't be backed up.
 
I agree, except for one thing. If an e liquid company claims to be 100% diacetyl free, as has been said, they are opening up the door for litigation. I'll be interested to see if that claim quietly drops from some sites.


Its already happening. When I heard about the SB fiasco last week. I looked to one of my Eliquid Suppliers that will remain unnamed. I have asked them why it has changed, no response as of yet.

Their site last week read the following -

We do not use the following:

Acetoin
Diacetyl
Acetyl Propionyl
Food color agents
Artificial Sweeteners


Now it reads -

We do not use the following:


Food color agents
Artificial Sweeteners
 

InMyImage

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I agree, except for one thing. If an e liquid company claims to be 100% diacetyl free, as has been said, they are opening up the door for litigation. I'll be interested to see if that claim quietly drops from some sites.
Probably. It is the safest thing to do right now.
 

InMyImage

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
BTW, I went back and read the Dr F results and watched his presentation again last night and couldn't see/hear a statement that any companies claimed to be D and AP free but were found to contain them. I saw that they tested juices and flavoring that tested positive, but no statements that any of those positive had previously claimed to be free of them.

I may be looking at an abridged version of the report though... can someone give me a link to a copy of the document that has findings stating that companies reported to be free of D and AP were tested positive?

Thanks
 

Bold Vapor

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Its already happening. When I heard about the SB fiasco last week. I looked to one of my Eliquid Suppliers that will remain unnamed. I have asked them why it has changed, no response as of yet.

Their site last week read the following -

We do not use the following:

Acetoin
Diacetyl
Acetyl Propionyl
Food color agents
Artificial Sweeteners


Now it reads -

We do not use the following:


Food color agents
Artificial Sweeteners

Big tobacco has already played the "confusion card" regarding e-liquids in it's effort to influence the FDA and any other entity they can influence including our elected officials and representatives. I am certain that several e-juice manufactures follow these forum's and I would hope they are seeing the writing on the wall.

This is exactly why threads, opinions and the truths provided in this forum and hopefully others WILL ultimately separate the sheep from the goats in the vaping "e-juice" industry and start eliminating the confusion.
 

cherrycakes

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
BTW, I went back and read the Dr F results and watched his presentation again last night and couldn't see/hear a statement that any companies claimed to be D and AP free but were found to contain them. I saw that they tested juices and flavoring that tested positive, but no statements that any of those positive had previously claimed to be free of them.

I may be looking at an abridged version of the report though... can someone give me a link to a copy of the document that has findings stating that companies reported to be free of D and AP were tested positive?

Thanks
Flavor West is one that claimed to have no diacetyl some Canadians analyzed their custard I believe and found it did have it.
Do not know if they brought that up, pretty sure it was a different study
 
Last edited:

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
If an e liquid company claims to be 100% diacetyl free, as has been said, they are opening up the door for litigation.

Well, they have several legal loopholes in their favor.

There is NO limit on how much of a GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) substance can be present in a food product. In fact, you can legally buy and have a barrel of pure diacetyl delivered right to your doorstep, because it is considered safe for ingestion. FDA defines GRAS: "adequately shown to be safe under the conditions of its intended use." So here we have:

Loophole #1, do not mention inhalation. Any food can contain any amount of diacetyl. Food with over 1% diacetyl must include "artificial flavor" on the ingredient list, so:

Loophole #2, label the product "artificial flavor." Artificial butter (I Can't Believe It's Not Butter) contains staggering amounts of diacetyl and GRAS substitutes, but look at the ingredient list and diacetyl is not listed. It's just "artificial flavor." If it's less than 1% of the product, it doesn't even have to be mentioned at all, thus:

Loophole #3, use less than 1% diacetyl. Now, that's all for food products. For e-liquid, there are NO regulations whatsoever. I suppose the FDA might consider them food product and subject to the regulations above, but if they are explicitly and clearly intended for inhalation and NOT ingestion - no laws or regulations exist, so:

Loophole #4, market it for inhalation and put whatever the heck you want in there. Smack on a sticker that says it's "diacetyl free!" while you're at it. It could possibly be argued that FTC's Fair Packaging and Labeling Act is violated, but even that is a stretch. Certainly no e-cig-related vendor has been prosecuted under that (or any other) regulation.

...so no - I don't think e-liquid vendors have ANY legal repercussions to fear!
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
I looked to one of my Eliquid Suppliers that will remain unnamed. I have asked them why it has changed, no response as of yet.

Their site last week read the following -

We do not use the following:

Acetoin
Diacetyl
Acetyl Propionyl
Food color agents
Artificial Sweeteners


Now it reads -

We do not use the following:


Food color agents
Artificial Sweeteners

So one would logically assume this vendor is (or thinks they may be) using acetoin, diacetyl, and aceyl propionyl, right?
But you want to protect their reputation and don't name them....because... why?

I'll name one: Halo. The statement on their website used to include one or more of the substitutes, but it now claims only to avoid diacetyl. (Screen captures of their before/after disclaimers are posted elsewhere online. I personally witnessed the change, but I was not the one to capture those images.)
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
Flavor West is one that claimed to have no diacetyl some Canadians analyzed their custard I believe and found it did have it.
Do not know if they brought that up, pretty sure it was a different study

Should be brought up again for anyone who doesn't know.

Quite a few months ago, a Canadian vendor had FW Butterscotch tested at their own expense, because they used FW flavorings for their own liquids and had doubt of the diacetyl-free claim.

"1797ug or micrograms of diacetyl where found in an eliquid that contained 10% butterscotch flavouring. This would work out to 1.797mg per ml. The concentrate they offer contains 17970ug or 17.97mg/ml diacetyl based on the amount in the eliquid tested converted to full concentration.”

(that has been quoted and requoted now so many times, I don't know who to attribute!)

With some google-fu you can find a scanned in copy of the lab report. Formaldehyde was pretty high, too.

FW's webpage for this flavoring: http://flavorwest.com/index.php/butterscotch.html says right at the bottom: "Independently laboratory tested Diacetyl free."
 

InMyImage

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I don't think e-liquid vendors have ANY legal repercussions to fear!

Not sure I agree with you on this one, product liability cases do not require that the vendor or manufacturer have knowledge of the defect before being held liable for the defect. It hurts the case if they the defendant does something known to be harmful, ignores it, and continues to market the product.

I believe wholeheartedly that e-liquid manufacturers should be doing everything in their power to protect themselves. It is irresponsible not to. The benefit to consumes is an effect of business taking the CYA approach, not due to altruistic actions for the most part.
 

Hermit

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Interesting thread on reddit about Grant's Custard, for three reasons:
1. screencap of its testing result
2. ;)
3. some calculations trying to relate concentration in juice to concentration in vapour (probably over-complicated and incorrect, but still kinda interesting).
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
Interesting thread on reddit about Grant's Custard, for three reasons:
1. screencap of its testing result
2. ;)
3. some calculations trying to relate concentration in juice to concentration in vapour (probably over-complicated and incorrect, but still kinda interesting).

:rolleyes:
Diacetyl was not detected perhaps because "limit of detection of 0.1%" (that's 1000 parts per million)


I've said it before: set the detection limit high enough, suddenly everything is diacetyl-free.
 
Last edited:

AmandaD

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Grants custard certainly tastes as if it's full of diketones (or did almost a year ago when I tasted it) - pretty sure he was using Caps V1...
 

KKen

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Sent off an email to VCV re: D & AP. Its not the specific answer I was hoping to get, but at least they communicate quickly. Will do a follow up shortly.

"We’ve gone long out of our way to have our flavors custom made for us by the finest manufacturers and we can assure you that none of those ingredients appear in our flavoring / liquid. I know it is a big concern especially with custard flavors and creams, but we have only routed through suppliers able to make similar enough flavors without the use of any dikatones, etc.
That’s the best reason to shop at Velvet Cloud! :) All natural, organic ingredients - and never anything like diactyl (OR similar such things) :p "
 

AmandaD

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Sent off an email to VCV re: D & AP. Its not the specific answer I was hoping to get, but at least they communicate quickly. Will do a follow up shortly.

"! :) All natural, organic ingredients - and never anything like diactyl (OR similar such things) :p "

Diketones occur naturally, so there's even less control using 'organic' flavorings!
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
Not sure I agree with you on this one, product liability cases do not require that the vendor or manufacturer have knowledge of the defect before being held liable for the defect. It hurts the case if they the defendant does something known to be harmful, ignores it, and continues to market the product.

Yes, I realize a vendor can be held liable for defects they did not know about. But would it be considered a defect?
You say "known to be harmful" - yet it is officially a GRAS substance, which covers it as a flavoring.
Known to be unsafe for inhalation? At what percentage or ppm? Using how much per day? There is dispute about those questions!
 
So one would logically assume this vendor is (or thinks they may be) using acetoin, diacetyl, and aceyl propionyl, right?
But you want to protect their reputation and don't name them....because... why?

I'll name one: Halo. The statement on their website used to include one or more of the substitutes, but it now claims only to avoid diacetyl. (Screen captures of their before/after disclaimers are posted elsewhere online. I personally witnessed the change, but I was not the one to capture those images.)

I don't want this to become a Vendor Bashing thread.

Its a well known Company that many people like and use!

The only way I know it was changed is that I copied the text to chat it to a friend with it saying that they didnt contain that and went back during the Mod Envy broadcast and it was changed. I've asked whether or not it was because they were unsure, or if they are awaiting full testing results or what. Still no response.
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
I don't want this to become a Vendor Bashing thread.

Its a well known Company that many people like and use!

The only way I know it was changed is that I copied the text to chat it to a friend with it saying that they didnt contain that and went back during the Mod Envy broadcast and it was changed. I've asked whether or not it was because they were unsure, or if they are awaiting full testing results or what. Still no response.

You definitely have the right to keep your info to yourself. I won't nag you about it or ask again.
 

KKen

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Diketones occur naturally, so there's even less control using 'organic' flavorings!

So whether or not flavorings contain diketones, its sort of irrelevant correct? Well, I guess the only way to know anything for sure now is to send off the e-liquids yourself to have it tested. I suppose "group buys" for specific juice brand testing would be the next best step.

IDK, this is getting really confusing for me...

MartianHeadExplodes.gif
 

InMyImage

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Yes, I realize a vendor can be held liable for defects they did not know about. But would it be considered a defect?
You say "known to be harmful" - yet it is officially a GRAS substance, which covers it as a flavoring.
Known to be unsafe for inhalation? At what percentage or ppm? Using how much per day? There is dispute about those questions!

True, but there are precedents and given the current debate over the subject, a manufacturer cannot claim to not have knowledge of the topic and potential hazards, emphasize potential. If questioned as to why they did not change their formulas to avoid those ingredients, their butts will be hanging in the wind if they cannot show that they did. The whole issue of flavorings being meant for inhalation versus consumption will be a secondary factor, as the first step will be showing that they made the switch to flavorings documented to be free of those substances. Part of a liability case's success is based on the efforts of the manufacturer to correct a problem when it is made aware of an issue and potentially issuing a recall if necessary. However even that doesn't insulate a manufacture from all culpability.

Keep in mind that realistically this is only going to become a significant issue financially for the major manufacturers because of the deepest pockets "rules". Boutique makers will be affected by the fallout and resulting regulations and packaging requirements but their financial exposure will be limited simply because it won't be worth an attorney's time to pursue them because the odds of them getting paid are highly likely to be nil as the companies will go bankrupt and leave the fees and settlements in the wind.

Bill
 

InMyImage

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
So whether or not flavorings contain diketones, its sort of irrelevant correct? Well, I guess the only way to know anything for sure now is to send off the e-liquids yourself to have it tested. I suppose "group buys" for specific juice brand testing would be the next best step.

IDK, this is getting really confusing for me...

MartianHeadExplodes.gif

Your image is apropos, I think that the basic answer is that flavorings meant for food will most likely never have a requirement for certify as D and/or AP free.

Flavorings marked for inhalation products should and most likely will.

Manufactures of e-liquids should and most likely will.

Right now the industry is attempting to self-regulate, more than likely as an attempt to stave off federal regulation, but even AEMSA does not require testing for D and/or AP in their standards document. They only require that manufactures not use ingredients:

Section 2.05
The following will not be added or used in the creation of e-liquids
(a)
Including but not limited to:
(i)
Diacetyl
(ii)
WTA (whole tobacco alkaloids)
(iii)
Medicinal - or prescription medicinal
(iv)
Illegal or controlled substances
(v)
Caffeine
(vi)
Vitamins or Dietary supplements (other than for preservative purposes)
(vii) Acetyl Propionyl (2,3-
‐Pentanedione)
(viii) Artifical Food Coloring
1)
AEMSA members will not add any artificial coloring or dyes during the e-liquid manufacturing process. Non vendor
manufactured flavorings containing artificial food coloring will identify food coloring information to include coloring
number in advertising and product descriptions
(iv)
AEMSA reserves the right to review, evaluate and deny/approve any potential substance used in the creation of e-liquids
at any given time

They only require testing for nicotine. Additionally, AEMSA is not a true regulating body, meaning nobody is required to meet their standards. It's more like getting a Consumer Reports seal of approval certifying that your manufacturing standards are clean and sanitary and that the nicotine is good. Today there are currently only 22 certified members, and yes I am glad to see that a couple of the brands of e-liquid that I have are on that list. I personally believe that sane, reasonable regulation is good for all of us, but I don't want it to be so strict that it regulates small business out of the eco-system.

Bill
 

Sully

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Diketones occur naturally, so there's even less control using 'organic' flavorings!
I would agree with this. I used to vape Natures Flavors Organic exclusively. Now, since switching flavoring vendors, I can taste diketones in almost every single NF flavor! Including fruits! Needless to say organic is not better in this case.
 

InMyImage

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
ugh bad experience with NF carrot cake. *shudders*
I don't personally understand the interest in custards, but carrot cake? Would not have thought of that ever. :eek:
 

cherrycakes

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
yea it was bad. it was like pumpkin pie spices without the pumpkin-
or in this case, carrot cake spices without the carrot and/or cake
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Unlisted Vendor
I love butterscotch, caramel, custard, sweet cream, cake and then fruits and candies. Basically, I'm definitely vaping diacetyl, even though my vendor claims it's not used. Kinda sucks, and I have some real thinking to do. Problem is, apparently they're finding diacetyl in fruit flavors, too, to my understanding any flavor can have it. Though, buttery creamy custard types I gather are more likely.
 

Hermit

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
:rolleyes:
Diacetyl was not detected perhaps because "limit of detection of 0.1%" (that's 1000 parts per million)


I've said it before: set the detection limit high enough, suddenly everything is diacetyl-free.

Yep, absolutely! Nowhere near a useful level of testing. And one could easily argue that it's worse than not having any test results shown, since it looks 'formal'.

(Not saying that as an attack on the vendor, just giving it as an example for discussion).
 

InMyImage

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
A note that should probably be clarified is that I do not think that any lawsuit in this arena has much chance of prevailing simply because of the general lack of brand loyalty among users.

What I see coming down the pike is regulation, and potentially fines if the FDA or even ATF can find grounds for them. The big question will be whether the regulations are realistic for the current crop of refillable e-liquid manufactures to meet without pricing them out of the market, or dramatically increasing the end price to consumers.
 
Last edited:

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
I love butterscotch, caramel, custard, sweet cream, cake and then fruits and candies. Basically, I'm definitely vaping diacetyl, even though my vendor claims it's not used. Kinda sucks, and I have some real thinking to do. Problem is, apparently they're finding diacetyl in fruit flavors, too, to my understanding any flavor can have it. Though, buttery creamy custard types I gather are more likely.

So whether or not flavorings contain diketones, its sort of irrelevant correct? Well, I guess the only way to know anything for sure now is to send off the e-liquids yourself to have it tested. I suppose "group buys" for specific juice brand testing would be the next best step.

IDK, this is getting really confusing for me...

calm....breathe... don't let your head explode inside that helmet, lol.

Without reliable vendor info, one thing we can ALL do is learn to detect diketones ourselves - by scent. I swear you can learn to do it! It's not hard. Many homebrewers learn to check for concentrations lower than most flavor manufacturers ever test for, just by scent. So can you!

How to detect diketones with your own nose !!!

Linda at The Flavor Apprentice recommended this method (used to be on the website, but I can't find it now). (edit: oh - Amanda found it! see post 86) Whether you DIY or not, you can learn to detect the scent of diketones in flavoring or e-liquid.

1. Buy TFA Vanilla Custard and TFA Vanilla Swirl flavorings. They use the same formula, but Vanilla Custard has 2%+ of diketones added (noted here on their website; it's acetoin + acetyl propionyl, and yes the main page for flavoring warns you of the 'custard notes').

2. Open that Vanilla Swirl bottle first and sniff it ... a lot. Really experience that scent.

3. Next open the Vanilla Custard bottle and do the same. You WILL notice it's the familiar scent of Vanilla Swirl, but also a blast of something else.
The 'something else' is diketones. If you smell the difference, you can already detect 2%. (Everyone can do this, really!)

4. Now smell your most 'suspect' flavorings or e-liquids (got FW Butterscotch? lol). Compare it to Vanilla Custard and to Vanilla Swirl. If it has that 'something else' in common with Vanilla Custard, you've detected diketones. If you have one you're not sure about, take a break - and to back to step 2. Don't try to check more than a few different flavors without taking a good, scent-free break.

5. If you are a DIYer with some TFA flavorings, you can verify your results here: http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx . Do the scent test, see which ones you suspect, then check your results on the website. Look for acetoin + aceylpropionyl in the component list and see what percent you were able to detect.


Other ways to train yourself !!!

Brewers try to avoid the buttery flavor of diacetyl in their beer (except for a few specialty beers). Here's a way home brewers learn to detect diacetyl. It is said the average person can easily detect diacetyl at under 100 parts per billion (less than most companies ever test for). This is the page for beer drinkers: http://www.winning-homebrew.com/diacetyl.html in the 'learn to detect it in your beer' section.

Cheap, fast method: Look in the baking aisle for artificial butter flavoring...(of course diacetyl won't be on the ingredient list). Smell it, smell your most suspected flavors. If you smell that butter flavor in your flavoring or juice, it has diketones. See step 5 on the previous section if you DIY with TFA flavorings.


Once you've learned the distinctive scent of diacetyl/subs, it's just a matter of getting better at detecting smaller amounts. The longer you avoid using them, in my experience, the easier it becomes to detect them when you do. If I can help anyone out learning to do this, just let me know.
 
Last edited:

Cloudy Peak Vapes

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Unlisted Vendor
@HeadInClouds thanks. I have done reading in the DIY section about this, people saying it almost smells of vomit to them after a while. I'm gonna read up on that, and see what I can smell. I've been wanting to DIY for a long time, now might be the time to start, I keep saying that lol. For now, I'm not freaking out at all, I just do need to do my diligence, and you've helped me find a start to that. Just sucks that my ADV's tend to be the worst offenders.
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Something disconcerting mentioned on Mod Envy Saturday was if I remember correctly, the mixing of some flavorings free of diacetyl and AP can actually result in it "developing" so to speak, in the end product. Someone correct me please if I'm wrong, and I can't remember if it was AP or diacetyl that was developed, but that was troublesome to hear.
Perfurmers Apprentice says it Much differently on the MSDS

This product contains no added diacetyl as an ingre dient. However, because diacetyl can occur in small amounts as an artifact of the production process in other ingredients, "No Added Diacetyl" products may not be "Diacetyl Free" , as trace amounts may be present.
That says the don't take raw Diacetyl and dump it in, but the do add other flavors, which have in them diacetyl. The mechanism is in the PRODUCTION of the flavor that they add. Since they know it, they know it exists in some of the what they are adding.....they do know they are adding in Diacetyl.

The term Trace, can have all sorts of meanings, so unless they quantify somehow how much Diacetyl is in the end flavoring, after all the ingredients are combined in the bottle, the claim is pretty weak.

Its not happening from adding ingredients together, the Diacetyl is formed in the process of creating the flavor. They cook up a flavor, the end result has diacetyl, but not from a jug of Diacetyl they added. They are entirely quiet on AP still.

 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
I have done reading in the DIY section about this, people saying it almost smells of vomit to them after a while.

Not everyone gets that vomit smell, but whether or not you do, you can still learn to detect those chemicals reliably.

It didn't use to bother me unless there was a lot. Now my stomach heaves just smelling large amounts, and I can detect it in very tiny concetrations most of the time. Sometimes I vape unflavored for a day or two, and that seems to make my diacetyl-radar especially sharp.

There are a couple flavorings that I know have some custard notes - but I can not detect them. So I have to rely on vendor info to back up my own hunches.
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Mine in Blue
[QUOTE="InMyImage, So you insult me and then use a four year old case to argue your point after pointing out previously that a 2 year old case was basically irrelevant?
oh boo-hoo! You lean into me calling me a know nothing, I lean back calling you a clown. Only difference is you are pouting for the crowd.

If you read what I posted, it was the judge tossing out the case on the merits after failing a Daubert challenge to the worth of the expert testimony
.

You had said the Watson verdict would be enabling as precedent. That is why i replied it not a strong precedent at all. My post 23 your 27 and 31.

Forgot what you said: Here is your fuzzed up Crystal ball.

"Diacetyl lawsuit precedents have started outside of the vaping industry, they will become more common now that someone has won a very large settlement."​

In post 34 I showed you how the Doctor in the Watson case was all used this case. The judge rejected it "you precedent case" could be used. That Judge already said you are wrong. Dr. Rose said said heck we can not really be sure, but Watson won, some days you get a great jury.

Dr. Rose herself qualified her conclusions: “It is difficult to make a causal connection based on a single case report. We cannot be sure that this patient’s exposure to butter flavored microwave popcorn from daily heavy preparation has caused his lung disease.”
So yes, I did say your case as precedent was BS. The expert witness for the Plaintiff said the same. A judge reviewing reliance on that evidence ruled that all of it was worthless, tossed it out of the other case, and shut that case down.

So sure you tell me I know nothing on the law. How about you show how and why that case can be used for anything meaningful going forward? The judge will keep junk science out, via Daubert.

You then go about pointing out the information got into the Watson case. Fine, and so what. When it was attempted to be used as information and precedent, it was REJECTED, and the case was dismissed.

So please, now, explain how its a good precedent. Way too many of your predictions and opinions are stated as fact, when they are a layman's speculations. Speculation all you want, but they are not facts. You will go on to say lawsuits are coming, then say they won't work, and predict and reject your own predictions on the whims.
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
Perfurmers Apprentice says it Much differently on the MSDS

This product contains no added diacetyl as an ingre dient. However, because diacetyl can occur in small amounts as an artifact of the production process in other ingredients, "No Added Diacetyl" products may not be "Diacetyl Free" , as trace amounts may be present.​

And on the short-form MSDS they all say "Avoid inhalation" - even Menthol.
 

Vangrl

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
BTW, I went back and read the Dr F results and watched his presentation again last night and couldn't see/hear a statement that any companies claimed to be D and AP free but were found to contain them. I saw that they tested juices and flavoring that tested positive, but no statements that any of those positive had previously claimed to be free of them.

I may be looking at an abridged version of the report though... can someone give me a link to a copy of the document that has findings stating that companies reported to be free of D and AP were tested positive?

Thanks

start listening at around 1:25 (regarding whether vendors claimed they were A&D free)

https://soundcloud.com/soundcloud.com%2Fvp-live%2Fsmoke-free-radio-episode-3
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
oh boo-hoo! You lean into me calling me a know nothing, I lean back calling you a clown. Only difference is you are pouting for the crowd.

When a post starts off like that, I have a mental block that prevents me from reading the rest.
I'll never know if you had some good points to make after that opening.
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
There is already a thread dedicated to information on that topic. The latest info I've seen is from back in July, post #30 in this thread: http://vapingunderground.com/thread...yl-and-acetoin-in-flavorings.3351/#post-42554
So you do not believe that Capella's V2 line is clear of Diacetyl and AP like they say? ... Or are you saying you don't trust their representations.
Are you aware of anyone who has tested and POSTED the results of tests saying Capella V2, or Flavour Art has D and AP where they said they have not.

Dr. F has said multiple time that some vendors have been saying Diacetyl free but are not. Others say Diacetyl Free but replaced it with AP. So its clearly understood that the Flavoring Companies are being shady, as a group.

If someone wants to point out Flavour Art as lying or Capella V2, by all means, until then I believe they are doing as they say. How much is trace is open to concern still, an actual ppm number would be nice
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Diacetyl detection during the 1940-50s - some enlightening information!

By the 1950s, several chemical methods were used to detect and measure diacetyl concentrations in different solutions, from food products to human blood, with sensitivity down to a single part per million. Prill and Hammer's method accurately detected diacetyl at concentrations as low as 0.2 parts per million.

Several available methods are briefly mentioned in this 1953 article from the journal of Analytical Chemistry: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac60081a020 . Although you can view only the first page for free, the names of the scientists who developed earlier methods (and a brief description of each) are included on that page.

One chemical method was published in 1943 by Stolz and Raborg. Here is their full article from the 1943 Journal of Biologic Chemistry: http://www.jbc.org/content/150/1/25.full.pdf . It described their methods for detecting and measuring acetoin and diacetyl. When they determined that this method (which detects amounts to 1 ppm) was accounting for only 88% of the actual diacetyl in a solution, they determined that wasn't accurate enough.

Two thoughts:
* parts per million precision on diacetyl detection has existed more than 60 years - it's not unreasonable to expect ppm testing now - especially when a typical modern lab can now measure to parts per billion or better. In other words, this ain't rocket science.

* Who knows - maybe a home chemistry hobbyist will read those articles and devise a method vapers or vendors could use as an alternative to expensive lab spectrometry services. Even a rough measure (ppm) is better than the "it's not there - trust that or not" we get from most manufacturers and vendors.

I've long wished a chemical dipstick could be developed to detect diketones - sure would make it easy, wouldn't it?
fail to see the entire point of this. Are you saying that you don't think accuracy down to 5 ppm testing is not good enough for you, for the liquid???
Dr. F disagrees.

But lets take the 5ppm and then combine that with number of molecules in a liter of air.
My research says there are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules, in a liter of air. So you mix that all up with 5 ppm, and you get a pretty dilute mixture. Yes?

So What----IF ANY, level of accuracy in testing the finished E-Liquid do you think is appropriate?
I still say you are confusing Parts in the Air/Vapor, vs the parts in the flavoring itself, vs the diluted flavoring in the E-Liquid, and then the E-Liquid is tested.

If I have a splinter in my finger, a dollar store magnifier glass will work. You seem to thing because an electron microscope exists, it therefore is the best tool to use....for the splinter
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Why in the world would a company pay Big Bucks for testing - when they don't have to? No law exists, and their sales aren't hurting. We may find that ethically distasteful, but if there is no legal- or profit-related motivation, they have no reason to spend the money.
I may blow you mind with this, but one reason is the world is not entirely filled up with evil money grubbing assholes.
Some people like to make good products, that they would use, and some people see no need to lie, and even believe a good business deserves a good profit at the same time.
I have no issue at all with DIY, this thread is not for DIY. DIY think they need nobody but their own hands. Something I appreciate. But if a DIYer starts a company to sell to their friends (like has been done 1000s of times in Vaping) it does not make them Evil.
 

HeadInClouds

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Unlisted Vendor
Tom, what is publicly known about Capella v2 flavors is already in that other thread. Please feel free to add to it, but I don't see the point of reposting all the conversation here.

The point of posting the 1940-50 methods was to show that ppm diacetyl was the standard all the way back then, and it it didn't require the expensive equipment that's used by today's labs. Just an interesting resource that perhaps a chemist could use to develop a handier method than spectroscope. Not I, but you never know who finds info on the web. Some entrepreneur could make a small fortune selling ppm diacetyl dip-stick test kits to vapers.

5ppm sounds very tiny, I agree. Yet it's enough that beer is a complete failure and Cheddar cheese is rejected during the production process.
Does 5ppb sound just unfathomably tiny to you? Most American mass-market beers assure such small amounts. It's common to measure in ppb - check your local water-quality report. Yes, if the tool is commonplace, why not use it?
 

tombaker

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
BTW, I went back and read the Dr F results and watched his presentation again last night and couldn't see/hear a statement that any companies claimed to be D and AP free but were found to contain them. I saw that they tested juices and flavoring that tested positive, but no statements that any of those positive had previously claimed to be free of them.

I may be looking at an abridged version of the report though... can someone give me a link to a copy of the document that has findings stating that companies reported to be free of D and AP were tested positive?

Thanks
tumblr_lx0bl35Lm51qmrb9o.gif
 

Vangrl

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
So one would logically assume this vendor is (or thinks they may be) using acetoin, diacetyl, and aceyl propionyl, right?
But you want to protect their reputation and don't name them....because... why?

I'll name one: Halo. The statement on their website used to include one or more of the substitutes, but it now claims only to avoid diacetyl. (Screen captures of their before/after disclaimers are posted elsewhere online. I personally witnessed the change, but I was not the one to capture those images.)
Oddly, a link right on this page revealed that vendor. Personally I think it's a positive, at least now they aren't lying. I think every vendor that doesn't do testing themselves at the proper MDL should delete that claim
 

VU Sponsors

Top