Eleaf iStick ... compact 20w box mod

Hermit · Oct 18, 2014

The reason most of this discussion is in voltage terms is simply because it's simpler! In the end, voltage is the only variable that any device can control. VW mode reads the resistance of the coil to work out what voltage to use (that calculation is done correctly), but after that the same errors are still present (by using mean voltage instead of RMS voltage calcs to determine the PWM duty cycle).

So while the actual vs displayed voltage graph had one trace, for wattage there's a trace per coil ohms.

This chart is correct when the battery has more than 2/3 charge in it:

(right click the image and then View Image to see it full size).

InMyImage · Oct 19, 2014

I understand what has been said, what I'm asking is whether or not anyone with the issue has tried putting it in VW mode to see if they experience the same issue. Test is a process that requires attacking a problem from multiple angles. Everything I've read so far has been approaching the problem from the VV side, but nothing has been said about whether the behavior of the regulation gives the same results when controlled from the other end.

Hermit · Oct 19, 2014

Indeed, we can only deduce what is going on inside the black box by poking it and seeing what comes out. But there's only so many ways to code the VW part of it, and they all involve outputting a voltage. Really what you seem to be hoping for is a second flaw that allows a different range of voltages to be output! But I haven't heard of anyone spotting any bugs other than that it uses mean voltage for calculations.

I read the whole of the thread on ECF a week or two ago. I was mostly skimming, looking for 'scope measurements and the like, but also slowing to read what people who already had one were saying about it. Pretty sure some who were unhappy said they'd tried both VV and VW, to no avail. Certainly didn't note anything that hinted at it behaving differently in either mode.

Subjectively, to get about the same vape as I would from a freshly charged mech mod, with the same RDA, I'm having to set about 3.0 to 3.2V on the iStick (with it fully charged). If I set it to 3.0V and then switch the VW mode, it says 5.6W (with this 1.6 ohm coil) - the vape is identical to the 3.0V setting. 5.6W is the lowest it will let me set in VW mode because at 5.5W the voltage would be less than 3.0V.

Lefty · Oct 19, 2014

Short answer is no. Setting by wattage makes no difference. All Isticks do it (certainly both of mine do) as it's an inherent design choice. If you have another variable device (unless it's a very early model it uses rms) make a direct a/b comparison with the same topper and the same voltage or wattage settings. The lower the ohms and voltage/wattage, the bigger the difference. The higher the ohms and voltage/wattage the lesser the difference. If you find a setting that corresponds to your equipment and tastes then there is no issue. As Pbusardo said "If it works for you then it's perfect.". I do find it curious that any discussion of why it may not be perfect for some users and how it might be made perfect for a wider range of equipment and users makes some people (not you) respond as if you beat their puppy. Human nature I guess.

Hermit · Oct 19, 2014

More graphs

I've redone the displayed vs actual watts graph slightly, so the scales are square and to make room for the below 2/3 battery charge version using the same scales. I decided two graphs was the right way to do it, you'll see why in a moment...

With the battery meter showing more than 2/3 full:

With the battery meter showing 2/3 or less:

Yup, that's what the gap on the power range graph looks like from this angle. Say you have a 2.5 ohm coil, and set the power to 9.2. You might actually get 9.2W out of it at that point! But click it up to 9.3W, and you'll get 11.2W.

Also updated the actual vs displayed voltage graph to show a below 2/3 charge trace:

(right click and then View Image or similar to see images full size).

Hermit · Oct 19, 2014

Yet more graphs, because I made a mistake before on the power range graphs

I'd applied the amp and wattage limits incorrectly at the low-ohm end of the actual max power trace.

Available power settings shown in green....

With the battery meter showing more than 2/3 full:

With the battery meter showing 2/3 or less:

So set up a 1.2 ohm coil and get 23.7 Watts out on the 20W or 4.9V setting, all the way from full to empty battery.
If it doesn't melt first, lol.
Disclaimer: I am not recommending that anyone do this!
With a 1 ohm coil you could still get 23.7W, but the output current would be 4.87A - well over the intended limit of 4A.
Outputting 23.7W with a nearly empty battery, say 3.2V, it would be drawing about 7.4A from the battery.

InMyImage · Oct 19, 2014

Thanks @Lefty

@Hermit looks like you have some really nice testing equipment. Is this all for your job or is it a rig for hobby?

Mommay · Oct 20, 2014

On another iStick topic - make sure to keep your threads conditioned & in good shape. Don't overtighten. I've noticed some wearing of mine already, so I'm being extra aware of how much I tighten down my atty and every couple of days, give the threads a little dose of protection.

misswish · Oct 20, 2014

I'm keeping adapters on mine, don't want any thread problems!

Hermit · Oct 20, 2014

InMyImage said:
@Hermit looks like you have some really nice testing equipment. Is this all for your job or is it a rig for hobby?

The waveforms were captured on my PC-based hobby scope. It's not the classiest, but it's the easiest to grab screenshots from

The graphs are calculations verified by taking measurements. I still need to verify that power hike at max power with, say, a 1.2 ohm coil - wish I had a big selection of low valued 20+ Watt resistors handy!

James · Oct 20, 2014

This thing has quite a few places ware it falls short . What makes it better then a dna20 or dna30 other than it is cute and there is some reason to flog it ? I guess it is the shameless floging it that has me feeling creeped out by this thing . It has so many problems yet it is getting talked up by some here . I just dont get it . I would think with all its problems it would get a bad rap yet it is getting sold hard here . Is there something i am not in the know about here , as far as i can tell . Short of buying one , this thing is junk compared to anything with a dna30 chipset ?

Midniteoyl · Oct 20, 2014

Because, despite its 'flaws', it works, and works good. Its cheap. Its small. It has great batt life.

James · Oct 20, 2014

Well " works good " seems to be what it dosent do .

Midniteoyl · Oct 20, 2014

But in 'real life' use, it does.. Thats why people are saying it does..

Mommay · Oct 20, 2014

I agree that it works well. It is all that I have used since I received it, almost a month ago. I love the small form factor & plan on picking up another, just as soon as v2 comes out. I use my mini-nauti on it and RBAs. The threading was just a "heads-up". Honestly, I haven't found any threads as bad as those on Innokin products - that's what makes me super observant and careful on threads.

Hermit · Oct 20, 2014

I think it's great in every respect apart from not giving the range of voltages/powers that it claims it will. I'll make sure to be gentle with those threads though!

DNA20/30 can't fire below battery voltage, so for DNA20 at least your looking at much the same power range, but a bulkier device with a clunkier UI. Cute... is small size such a bad thing?

richardrpsgt · Oct 20, 2014

I love mine. It's paired with a mini nautilus and I have no problems with it. I understand it's putting out more power than it displays so I adjust to taste. I burnt some coils but that was the thick juice I was using.
I have yet to find a DNA 30 device for under 40 dollars. The hana mini and vaporshark are quite a bit more expensive and have a smaller battery. New stuff comes out all the time though and I hope the success of this device despite its faults encourages the building of more tiny mods with all day battery life.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Randy Lahey · Oct 22, 2014

Anyone know if there's an Eleaf atomizer that will fit the iStick?

moecat · Oct 22, 2014

Randy Lahey said:
Anyone know if there's an Eleaf atomizer that will fit the iStick?

https://www.eleafus.com/atomizer

US customer service 1 855-569-3168

moecat · Oct 22, 2014

My replacement iStick just arrived.

Will use the included adapter to attach my tanks in hopes to preserve the connector.

Whiskey · Oct 22, 2014

Let us know how it goes, Moe

robtest · Oct 22, 2014

and just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water ...

Sparks · Oct 24, 2014

Anyone who loves that adapter I found some for sale and damn cheap $3 you have to be kidding, I order 5, has to be something wrong with them at that price, but what???
http://sweet-vapes.com/apvs/eleaf/eleaf-joyetech-510-ego-adapter.html
Looks to have a copper pin and not the aluminum like what came with this piece of junk, I have two Eleaf Igotstucks for sale, one black one silver but they won't come with adapter or charging cord, just want them out of my collection, there lightly used in good shape and I'll sell both for maybe $50 plus shipping I'm easy make an offer.
Set this thing at 3.0v with a mini nautilus and it works great, then at half bar you can up regulate fairly well, but sure wasn't as advertised, maybe they will get it together in V2, and ya I'll probably take that $50 and I'm looking hard at that IPV mini, I have a couple of their products and no squawk from me on anything with them, kind of spendy products so I'm real interested to see how much this device is, oh ya today at 11am PST VapeRev will have the Skeleton Keys, and I have some clones for sale also if anyone is interested, make an offer, I need to clean out some mods, have way to many and I'm damn tired of cleaning them all.

Sparks · Oct 24, 2014

Hermit said:
I think it's great in every respect apart from not giving the range of voltages/powers that it claims it will. I'll make sure to be gentle with those threads though!

DNA20/30 can't fire below battery voltage, so for DNA20 at least your looking at much the same power range, but a bulkier device with a clunkier UI. Cute... is small size such a bad thing?

I've been using an airflow adapter to protect those soft threads, I've had to drill out and use inserts to repair 510's to many times so it's almost automatic for me now to use an adapter on everything and the air flow adapter,http://www.madvapes.com/tank-airflow-controller.html does look good on the Istick, I think I have a picture of it. To the right.. with a mini nautilus works good with all the voltage problems and the nautilus is about it really, set the stupid thing at 3.0v and forget it's supposed to be a variable volt, I'm trying to sell these stupid things, and by the way Mr. Hermit I think you like that adapter that came with this POS if I recall and I found some for on the cheap $3, dang that's cheaper than what a regular 510/ego goes for, here's the link pal, http://sweet-vapes.com/apvs/eleaf/eleaf-joyetech-510-ego-adapter.html
I ordered a bunch and it looks to have a copper pin and not the aluminum like what came with the Igotstuck mod

Bye the way I was just looking at those adapters and they say their 16.5mm so measured the Istick one and they are the same size but do look to be better with the copper pin

Hermit · Oct 24, 2014

Sparks said:
..... by the way Mr. Hermit I think you like that adapter that came with this ....

Must admit I haven't used the adapter at all since briefly trying a mini protank on it!!! Didn't hardly look at it, but yeah, the style of it is good, rather than permanently having the eGo connector like the MVP.

Just got an Erlkonigen clone that I'll set up for iStick use later. Perfect width for it at 20.7mm (but will still overhang the display edge of course).

So you've noticed that step down in power at 2/3 battery level too, huh? I've been noticing it more and more, having to bump up from 3.0V to about 3.6V to keep the same output after it changes.

moecat · Oct 24, 2014

Artemis said:
I'm still on the fence on getting one for my sister. Is this better than a mvp2 or a ksd vamo 30? Can anyone sum up the positives/negatives? I just want to find something that is easy to use but not a disappointment for her. I know its cheap and I should just buy one I don't trust her with something like a dna 30 where one has to actually place a battery in. It will be used with kanger evod 2 or nautilus minis at 1.5-1.8. Will this give her a good vape?
Thank you for any advice.

Yes, better than those mods you mentioned, in my opinion at least.
Biggest negative in my opinion: weak connector. You should really consider using the included adapter to attach your tanks.

Tripster · Oct 24, 2014

robtest said:
and just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water ...

Nope, not getting any of my money...they're releasing way to many product variants in such little time...they already have the IPV+ Mini and IPV Mini 300w device coming out 2 months after the release of the IPV Mini.

Sparks · Oct 24, 2014

Hermit said:
Must admit I haven't used the adapter at all since briefly trying a mini protank on it!!! Didn't hardly look at it, but yeah, the style of it is good, rather than permanently having the eGo connector like the MVP.

Just got an Erlkonigen clone that I'll set up for iStick use later. Perfect width for it at 20.7mm (but will still overhang the display edge of course).

So you've noticed that step down in power at 2/3 battery level too, huh? I've been noticing it more and more, having to bump up from 3.0V to about 3.6V to keep the same output after it changes.

Yep, I think you and I talked about it awhile back, it's a POS basically.

Edited out rant: , venting about being pissed off major at Fn VapeRev over ripping me off on a Skeleton Key purchase is probably not what you want to hear about, so I deleted my rant, and FUCK VapeREV

Sparks · Oct 24, 2014

Two Isticks for SALE, black and silver, NO adapters or charging cord, but just about any of the charger cords like the MVP or Hana, Clouper with the micro usb connector and a 1amp wall module works.
You can buy the adapter here,
Will sell both for $50 plus the cost of shipping in one of those old vape mail boxes that has a fixed price??
I've never sold anything to someone on the net so will have to figure out how to do it, but I want those useless things gone and they are in great shape

Sparks · Oct 24, 2014

Artemis said:
Thank you! She is currently using a Mvp 2. If she was more tech savy I would buy her a dna 30 but I don't think I can trust her.
So I'm stuck with a more plug and play idea. Well I suppose I can pick one up and try it.

Use a airflow adapter like this one, http://www.madvapes.com/tank-airflow-controller.html
Saves your threads from the damage that will occur on this device really soft and will cross thread in a second and this air flow adapter is shiny so it matches real nice to the Istick shine and it looks good to, just the right size actually if you need a better pic let me know

Midniteoyl · Oct 24, 2014

Tripster said:
Nope, not getting any of my money...they're releasing way to many product variants in such little time...they already have the IPV+ Mini and IPV Mini 300w device coming out 2 months after the release of the IPV Mini.

Ya, but I'm liking the replaceable batt

Whiskey · Oct 24, 2014

Sparks said:
Two Isticks for SALE, black and silver, NO adapters or charging cord, but just about any of the charger cords like the MVP or Hana, Clouper with the micro usb connector and a 1amp wall module works.
You can buy the adapter here,
Will sell both for $50 plus the cost of shipping in one of those old vape mail boxes that has a fixed price??
I've never sold anything to someone on the net so will have to figure out how to do it, but I want those useless things gone and they are in great shape

On here, this is where we sell our items, maybe start a thread in this area to sell them http://vapingunderground.com/forums/hardware.64/

Mommay · Oct 25, 2014

It looks like eleaf (or at least Sweet-Vapes) has recognized that the iStick doesn't step-down... I wonder if this means that v2 is in the works??? Here's their Min/Max wattage chart that's posted with the item description:
http://sweet-vapes.com/apvs/eleaf/eleaf-istick-20-watt.html

Sparks · Oct 25, 2014

Whiskey said:
On here, this is where we sell our items, maybe start a thread in this area to sell them http://vapingunderground.com/forums/hardware.64/

Thanks Whiskey didn't know that, thanks again, you changed your avatar..LOL Ms. Whiskey

Mommay said:
It looks like eleaf (or at least Sweet-Vapes) has recognized that the iStick doesn't step-down... I wonder if this means that v2 is in the works??? Here's their Min/Max wattage chart that's posted with the item description:
http://sweet-vapes.com/apvs/eleaf/eleaf-istick-20-watt.html

I really like this company, some prices are a bit high but they are honest and they have that ego/510 adapter that came with these Isticks, made me happy to see a vendor telling the facts finally

Hermit · Oct 25, 2014

Mommay said:
It looks like eleaf (or at least Sweet-Vapes) has recognized that the iStick doesn't step-down... I wonder if this means that v2 is in the works??? Here's their Min/Max wattage chart that's posted with the item description:
http://sweet-vapes.com/apvs/eleaf/eleaf-istick-20-watt.html

That's just sweet-vapes... and it's wrong! iStick does step-down (after it steps up), but by the wrong amount.

That chart was posted by peraspera on ECF as speculation of what the istick was doing... peraspera noted that it was speculation (or at least said it was calculations based on info known so far) in the very same post! The info it was based on turned out to be unreliable.

Sparks · Oct 25, 2014

Hermit said:
Yet more graphs, because I made a mistake before on the power range graphs I'd applied the amp and wattage limits incorrectly at the low-ohm end of the actual max power trace.

Available power settings shown in green....

With the battery meter showing more than 2/3 full:
View attachment 7488

With the battery meter showing 2/3 or less:
View attachment 7489

So set up a 1.2 ohm coil and get 23.7 Watts out on the 20W or 5.5V setting, all the way from full to empty battery.
If it doesn't melt first, lol.
Disclaimer: I am not recommending that anyone do this!

You did a damn awesome job there my brother, don't know if you saw that a company Sweet Vapes came clean on this issue, really nice to see a company say up front that these are really Mean and not RMS and YOUR work pal is dead on IMO just buying my experimenting even when you and I seemed to be the only ones who saw this issue way way early on when these first got in our hands, I was so relieved to find someone who agreed with me that these were way to hot and that was before you did all this great work, it's solved and you know what really gets me is that I sent a email to Ismoka Eleaf Istick in China and they denied it flat out, this is marketing fraud of some minor proportions but it's not variable volt in the true sense. Thanks for all your great work it's certainly been a pleasure to watch and knowing I wasn't really crazy after all as some were saying, except you..!!

Sweet Vapes.com Eleaf Istick coming clean Honest Co..jpg

Midniteoyl · Oct 25, 2014

That chart is incorrect.. It does step down.. it just does it incorrectly for our use.

Sparks · Oct 25, 2014

Hermit said:
That's just sweet-vapes... and it's wrong! iStick does step-down (after it steps up), but by the wrong amount.

That chart was posted by someone on ECF as speculation of what the istick was doing, who noted that it was speculation (or at least said something like it was calculations based on assumption) in the very same post!

Ah ha, OK, I follow you and see that now, thanks Hermit, but you know just the mention is worth the mention.. At least they are making a statement unlike all other vendors or most, I guess, right or wrong is what I'm trying to say, they should have posted your testing..!!

Hermit · Oct 25, 2014

@Sparks - thank you very much!

Yes, it's good of Sweet Vapes to make an effort to inform customers. The chart may be wrong, but it gives a much better idea of the utility of the iStick than the specs do!

The trouble with asking eleaf or joyetech anything is you'd have to be very specific, or they can weasel out of it without quite lying.

As in.... It is variable voltage. It is variable wattage. Every different setting on the device (for voltage and wattage) does produce a different output level. It can step down to a [mean] voltage that's less than the battery voltage.

Those are not lies (even if the word 'mean' is omitted).

As a variable voltage device, they could just say "meh, it's mean voltage, so what?", and then it's hard (for us) to claim that the voltage display is incorrect, since in that sense, it's not.

As a variable wattage device, the displayed levels are definitely incorrect, since correct power levels requires that calculations be done using RMS voltage (since it has an unfiltered PWM output). Further, this flaw is reducing the range of available wattages (for any given coil ohms, other limit(s) notwithstanding).

I mean, damn, it is a real effort to be that precise with the language!

Hermit · Oct 25, 2014

Actually.... in RMS terms, I think there's only one or two brief moments throughout the entire discharge cycle where the iStick can even get down to battery voltage!

The first is when the battery is absolutely fully charged, let's say it's at 4.2V. From there until the boost reduces the iStick's minimum output is 4.17 Vrms. So the time where it's close to battery voltage there lasts perhaps a puff or two.

The second might be when the battery has just gone below the level where the iStick switches to using less boost. From there until empty the iStick's minimum output is 3.8 Vrms.

Now, I don't know exactly what the battery level is at that second point (the gauge shows 2/3). It could well already be less than 3.8V, but assuming it calls 'empty' at 3.2V then the 2/3 level calculated linearly is 3.86V. I would guess 3.9V is probably the highest it could be. So perhaps for a while it's below (by 0.1V!) or close to battery voltage. Whatever, that state isn't going to last long either.

The rest of the time - virtually all of the time - the minimum RMS voltage output is above battery voltage.

Yooperdad · Oct 28, 2014

I have a confusing (to me ) Eleaf situation.

On the way to lunch today, I took the Eleaf out of my pocket for a hit, and it seemed dead. And it was. I had been vaping on the device most of the morning with a Russian RBA mounted on it. The Eleaf sported a message that said "short" or something like that and would not work. After lunch, I took another Russian off of an MVP and it worked fine on the Eleaf. The RBA from the Eleaf that wouldn't work, then went on to the MVP and it worked fine too. Then of course, I tried it again on the Eleaf but still a no go.

Obviously a contact issue of some kind. Tried 2 different Aerotanks on the Eleaf and they worked fine as well. So what could cause the one RBA to not work on the Eleaf when it works on an MVP? I'm stumped.

Tripster · Oct 28, 2014

Yooperdad said:
I have a confusing (to me ) Eleaf situation.

On the way to lunch today, I took the Eleaf out of my pocket for a hit, and it seemed dead. And it was. I had been vaping on the device most of the morning with a Russian RBA mounted on it. The Eleaf sported a message that said "short" or something like that and would not work. After lunch, I took another Russian off of an MVP and it worked fine on the Eleaf. The RBA from the Eleaf that wouldn't work, then went on to the MVP and it worked fine too. Then of course, I tried it again on the Eleaf but still a no go.

Obviously a contact issue of some kind. Tried 2 different Aerotanks on the Eleaf and they worked fine as well. So what could cause the one RBA to not work on the Eleaf when it works on an MVP? I'm stumped.

Try...

Q-Tip
Gently Clean the iStick's Threads and Contact
If need be, use only your breath to blow into the 510 Connection

The threading with the iStick is rather soft and from threading on/off device atties will cause ever so slight metallic shavings which can/does cause error's and or degrades connection operation.

Yooperdad · Oct 28, 2014

Tripster said:
Try...

Q-Tip

Gently Clean the iStick's Threads and Contact

If need be, use only your breath to blow into the 510 Connection

The threading with the iStick is rather soft and from threading on/off device atties will cause ever so slight metallic shavings which can/does cause error's and or degrades connection operation.

I understand what you are saying, but why would one RBA work on the Eleaf and the other RBA not work? And then both work on the MVP?

Tripster · Oct 28, 2014

Yooperdad said:
I understand what you are saying, but why would one RBA work on the Eleaf and the other RBA not work? And then both work on the MVP?

Not all are manufactured equally...

Lefty · Oct 28, 2014

Yooperdad said:
Obviously a contact issue of some kind.

Not all "Russian" clones have an adjustable 510. (They should but not all do.) If yours does it could be a minor 510 adjustment.

moecat · Oct 29, 2014

Yooperdad said:
I have a confusing (to me ) Eleaf situation.

On the way to lunch today, I took the Eleaf out of my pocket for a hit, and it seemed dead. And it was. I had been vaping on the device most of the morning with a Russian RBA mounted on it. The Eleaf sported a message that said "short" or something like that and would not work. After lunch, I took another Russian off of an MVP and it worked fine on the Eleaf. The RBA from the Eleaf that wouldn't work, then went on to the MVP and it worked fine too. Then of course, I tried it again on the Eleaf but still a no go.

Obviously a contact issue of some kind. Tried 2 different Aerotanks on the Eleaf and they worked fine as well. So what could cause the one RBA to not work on the Eleaf when it works on an MVP? I'm stumped.

I think the connector is the iStick's weakest feature. I recently got a replacement device because the connector completely crapped out on me after less than 2 weeks of vaping.

I now use the included adapter with the hope of preserving the connector over the long haul. Even today I just started getting the "Atomizer Short" message, but was able to resolve it by slightly unscrewing the tank from the adapter.

I think maybe Eleaf needs to consider improving the iStick's venting capabilities - in addition to improving the connector itself - because it does warm up a bit ... definitely more noticeably than the Hana clone. I'm thinking that the extra heat warps the metal in the connector to the point of affecting overall performance.

Note that this is just my opinion based on personal experience. Others have had theirs for longer periods of time and have expressed no such issues.

Tripster · Oct 29, 2014

It's been quite a good minute utilizing my iStick strictly and absolutely a pleasurable vapin' session/s with no serious hiccups on the iStick itself (besides cleaning the 510 Connector periodically).

Patiently awaiting for any official acknowledgements of an iStick V2 or variant...

Yooperdad · Oct 29, 2014

Artemis said:
I am looking for a istick as a present. I just found this on their site. They obviously know the connector is a piece of crap.
http://www.eleafworld.com/product/detail.php/istick-bending-adaptor.html

The adapter is on their website but I couldn't find it on-line for sale anywhere ??

Tripster · Oct 29, 2014

Yooperdad said:
The adapter is on their website but I couldn't find it on-line for sale anywhere ??

http://sweet-vapes.com/accessories/thread-covers-adapters/eleaf-joyetech-510-ego-adapter.html

Yooperdad · Oct 29, 2014

Tripster said:
http://sweet-vapes.com/accessories/thread-covers-adapters/eleaf-joyetech-510-ego-adapter.html

Thanks. That's not the "bending adapter" but I ordered it anyway

Eleaf iStick ... compact 20w box mod

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