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micro coil frustration

LoveVanilla

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Hey Vanilla,
with the winding rods provided with the Gizmo thing, it seems that you're either winding a nano-coil (1.5mm) or a mini coil (3mm). I kinda like my coils at about 2mm, do they provide 2 mm rods as far as you know?

No, I wish. You're exactly right -- they're missing the best one in the middle (at least in my "Deluxe" set"). Likely great feedback to the manufacturer. I ordered, received and then fashioned an additional 2mm mandrel using this item. Also plan for a 2.2mm mandrel. Result works great with the gizmo. Bonus was I had plenty to make mounting jigs (2-3" sections) for dual coils.

Note this is not soft steel and took some heavy pliers, hammer, vise and Dremel to form and cut. Probably could get by with just vise grips and dremel (or angle grinder) for cut-off. As it's hardened steel, most cutoff tools will NOT get the job done.
 

MacTechVpr

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a5f986253a0a41aefc8d7fe9396ad71b.jpg

It's not that hard actually...

That's purdy dandy dude. I got 47 mods. I should have a damned machine! Truth is though a do an awesome variety of builds with all kinds of wicking material. I kinda dread the day I might be confined to using a jig. I do have some motor control problems. For now a pin vise gives me the versatility (I have a variety) of hand holds, leverage, but diameter (I use to constrain and manage coils while installing) and…an tremendous of assortments of diameter. And it's only a few turns away.

While it's harder for me to sense when adhesion actually occurs I think both devices are indispensable. Either will suffice but there's always an application where one or the other will do best.

Keep up the great vape D. Love them pixels.

Good luck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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I greatly appreciate the efforts by all of you to post pic's of your results if you use tension to get to adhesion. It helps a great deal for folks to see what "sticky" means. Also, pics of your winds as you pulse and afterwards of your finished t.m.c. As most of you have likely realized it takes less effort and fewer fires for them to go micro.

I'll note here to try to keep the voltage low as you start. It's a slow and deliberate process. And once you hit the red-orrange glow end to end (end turns will be slightly darker, normal, no hot legs) back it down to very brief short pulses. If you wound consistently, you will see the wire turn a uniform color when cool. You're there.

Be careful using a jig not to apply too much tension. As the above video noted, you can damage the wire actually stretching it. And imperfections in the wire (of diameter) can be made worse. These things can perceptibly affect your resistance and vaping results. If too much the res of your leads, then wind overall, may shoot up and you'll lose the benefits of uniformity by adhesion. In fact, you get the opposite.

Good luck and vape on!

:)
 
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MrScaryZ

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The pic I posted of the two parallels was actually 31 AWG on 2.2 mm. A demonstration of something I'd yet not seen…twisted leads to stabilize parallels. If there was a predecessor, I'd appreciate knowing who so I could thank him/her.

Good luck, vape on!

:)
Yeah that was impressive now I have to try and duplciate hahaha ohh dear ;)
 

MacTechVpr

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Yeah that was impressive now I have to try and duplciate hahaha ohh dear ;)

Thanks. As I started to experiment with parallels last year it became obvious maintaining their symmetry was going to be a problem. I opted for a time to focus on twisted pair. However, unless your wind is absolutely perfect be it by hand or on a jig it's quite difficult to interlace the knurls created by twisting. Without that consistent contact between the turns is insufficient to see the advantages of adhesion and the parallels will tend to separate with use requiring re-firing. I didn't see a solution out there. And parallels with inherent thermal shorts don't cut it.

The twisted leads prevent their inevitable separation which can nullify the efficiency of parallels with hot legs. The twist and tension helps to maintain the geometry of the twained tensioned pairs. Not to mention that it's far and away easier to handle the leads at the set.

You will need something to suitably clamp the coil. The same pin vise you used for the wind now becomes the Swiss Army knife you use to twist the leads right to the point you need coming off top or bottom of the bit. Dare I say it…easy peasy...with the additional benefit that you can dial up the precise exit point (or angle) that you require for your set and it's fixed as well. Great for verticals.

Good luck. Enjoy the vape.

:)
 
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Jackson

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Thanks fella's for all the interest and curiosity. And you're right I'm short of time.

Super_X_drifter on ECF last spring conceived of and later coined the term popularly in use all over the internet for the continuously shorting contact coil…or as more commonly known in the vernacular, the microcoil.
Maybe I ain't reading this right. But it was Cisco of Avid vapor who first went with thicker gauge/more wraps and micro coils many years ago with his 510 LR atties, long before the rebuildable craze..

Avid_Aero_ta4m84.jpg
 

MacTechVpr

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If you define a micro coil by its diameter strictly perhaps. But the most important aspect of super_X_drifter's adaptation wasn't merely the Ø but the effect induced by forcing the wire together into a continuous short. It is this which promotes a more optimal delivery (more evenly distributed temperature) across the contact area of the wick and so more effective vaporization. All of these may be optimized by the even greater uniform tightness at pulsing of a wind created with tension which brings the turns as close together as possible to the point stretch or strain. And there's the rub. Why I spent the time on researching tension.

"What makes microcoils more temperamental is the fact that the contact must be flush, and even, or hotspots will murder your coil."

Gaps or breaks in contact or force applied to form a coil by external pressure reduce it's efficiency. The coil remains in a shorted state as gaps many of them too small to see prevent the creation of a uniform insulation layer. So segments of the coil remain hotter than others. Too much resistance resulting from the eccentricity and leads may go hot as well. This can't always easily be resolved by further compression of the coil. It is what it is. Tension winding perfects that contact to as near as perfect as possible in practical terms to ensure uniform contact and turn insulation when the coil is pulsed. Best thing is…it's easy to do, even for a beginner. And that's where my interest lies in getting more of them to a reliable, repeatable vape quickly.

We need 'em in our ranks. An evolving vaping industry needs that growth to survive opposition. The learning curve with standard winding was too long. And those producing them commercially fail to see this is not in their best interest. Those I've taught to tension wind are experimenting with a wide variety of vaping options in weeks…not months or years. Proficiency advances rapidly once you can build a dead-to-nuts rock solid circuit as a baseline. And that's what I promote.

Thanks for askin' Jackson. Good question. Give it a try. I think you'll be impressed.

Good luck.

:)

p.s. J. if that's a picture of one it needs to be in a ceramic cup. It's got accordion spread across the bottom disrupting turn-to-turn contact and end-turns are fowling symmetry. A thermal short on several levels. No doubt a hot vape. But that's not necessarily efficiency. In comparison to standard winding it's orders of magnitude better I'll grant you. I've vaped a few CISCO's.
 
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LoveVanilla

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Member For 4 Years
Mac, any thoughts on center-draw vertical coils i.e. a vertical microcoil with wick around the outside? Tried this thinking that greater surface area via outside wicking and direct airflow through the center might be great. Tried a couple iterations and decided vape through the center (of the coil) was getting too hot. Didn't feel hot, but tasted overheated. Thinking there must be too much heat build up in the center with 8-wrap coil (i.e. so of like an oven versus and a stove-top) so tried using 32g and only 6-wraps -- but same result.

Have you played with an external w/center wicking; especially in verticals? Thinking that maybe a vertical cone build might bypass this issue -- but couldn't get a good tension build in cone configuration. Have you tried or have any insights?
 
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Amir_Wazir

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Just an FYI for anyone who is reading this thread and wants to try it out but doesn't have a whole spool of wire, I've had decent success doing this with one end of the wire fixed in a desktop vise. I've found that tilting whatever you're winding on down and to the right just enough so that the winding end slides over the already-rolled coils and into place helps keep it tight. Wrapping it off a spool would certainly be superior because there is less room to introduce error by moving your wrapping instrument relative to the fixed end of the wire, but I'm still getting much better results from this than the traditional method that's ubiquitous in video tutorials and reviews.

Now if I could only install them on my Fogger v4.1 without pulling the coils apart when I torque the screws down...
 

MacTechVpr

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Just an FYI for anyone who is reading this thread and wants to try it out but doesn't have a whole spool of wire, I've had decent success doing this with one end of the wire fixed in a desktop vise. I've found that tilting whatever you're winding on down and to the right just enough so that the winding end slides over the already-rolled coils and into place helps keep it tight. Wrapping it off a spool would certainly be superior because there is less room to introduce error by moving your wrapping instrument relative to the fixed end of the wire, but I'm still getting much better results from this than the traditional method that's ubiquitous in video tutorials and reviews.

Now if I could only install them on my Fogger v4.1 without pulling the coils apart when I torque the screws down...

You're absolutely right. A spool is best but use what you can. Anything! Just tension it! LOL

A forceps or vise grips will hold an end too held under your left hand. Anything really. Good friends don't throw away their empty spools. LOL Give 'em to noobs and tell 'em to tension it!

I use a vise grips under my left knee to do parallels and twisted pair placing my forearms on both legs. Very comfortable sitting forward relaxed. But it's really great if you can put that wire too or any wire on a a full sized spool. The edge of the spool is a formidable pivot or fulcrum which allows you to subtly add or withdraw tension or to adjust the angle of wire to the bit very slightly…all with slight movement of the wrist. A spool is a very versatile tool. But as long as man has been winding wire, for millennia, we've known that.

Thanks Amir and good luck!

:)
 

Eric DeCastro

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Member For 4 Years
mine separate a little but not by much. I leave the drill bit on when mounting. and after its all mounted, i fire it off (pulsing) and squeeze the remaining bits together. not hard at all.
 

Amir_Wazir

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mine separate a little but not by much. I leave the drill bit on when mounting. and after its all mounted, i fire it off (pulsing) and squeeze the remaining bits together. not hard at all.

Yep keeping them on a drill bit or something during mounting definitely does help, but they continue to separate more than I'd like. It is the case that with a contact coil, the less separation you get the more efficient the resulting heating element will be, correct?

Question for the more experienced coil builders here: I have seen pictures of many builds where a coil's first lead is on the inside of one post, and the second lead is wrapped around the outside of the other. Why is this done? Does it help prevent separation? I've tried to do this on my Fogger v 4.1, but the build deck is too small for it to be done easily.
 

Eric DeCastro

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are you torching the coils while squeezing them together before mounting? I don't have any problem with them separating unless it's a small coil like 5 turns and the build deck is big. I haven't mastered the art of bending the coil legs to reach the posts yet. but if it were an 8-10 turn coil, they stay stuck together like a coke can.
 

LoveVanilla

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The coils will spread if their length is less than the distance between posts. Because when you then pull leads into/to the posts, the coils are stretching to reach. If leads exit on the same side of the coil, do this: using needle nose, bend the leads away from the coil (~45 degrees or less) before removing from the mandrel. Now when the leads are pulled into post holes, this bend will cause compression, rather than stretching, of the coil. Here's a crude text art picture: \==/ And as mentioned, keeping the mandrel in the coil during mounting helps prevent deformation -- particularly of end wraps. Cheers
 

Amir_Wazir

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The coils will spread if their length is less than the distance between posts. Because when you then pull leads into/to the posts, the coils are stretching to reach. If leads exit on the same side of the coil, do this: using needle nose, bend the leads away from the coil (~45 degrees or less) before removing from the mandrel. Now when the leads are pulled into post holes, this bend will cause compression, rather than stretching, of the coil. Here's a crude text art picture: \==/ And as mentioned, keeping the mandrel in the coil during mounting helps prevent deformation -- particularly of end wraps. Cheers

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I'll try what you've suggested and also making my coils closer to the length of the posts.

I would assume that the RDAs/RBAs that have holes you insert the leads into and then tighten down the post screw are better about this?
 

Amir_Wazir

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Just got the best coil yet doing 20 wraps around a 1.5mm instrument screwdriver with 28ga Kanthal for a 1.2ohm dual coil setup and mounting it in my Fogger, the geometry stayed together really well. I tried both making a coil that was closer to the distance between the posts in length and twisting the leads outwards at a 45 degree angle. The wicking is proving to be a little tricky but otherwise it's working great.

Thanks for the help LoveVanilla. Wish I had a camera that worked ATM.
 

Amir_Wazir

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are you torching the coils while squeezing them together before mounting? I don't have any problem with them separating unless it's a small coil like 5 turns and the build deck is big. I haven't mastered the art of bending the coil legs to reach the posts yet. but if it were an 8-10 turn coil, they stay stuck together like a coke can.

I've tried both torching+pinching and not torching but wrapping the coil under tension as MachTechVpr recommends. The second method has worked better for me so far.
 

MacTechVpr

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I've tried both torching+pinching and not torching but wrapping the coil under tension as MachTechVpr recommends. The second method has worked better for me so far.

Once you reach the point of adhesion, the point in physics that objects can come no closer, the wire will stretch. Characteristically, the coil will retain it's shape rather than spreading. However, it can come undone. If more energy is afterwards applied to the coil than what was initially input it will distort if the geometry is altered. So baby steps and gently. Don't let the girls show us up. And they do! It's about fine motor control. Also the appropriate tools. When we were torching everything we could wind to smithereens wrenches and pliers were adequate. This is more about finesse. Think fine motor control and good hand control at the shooting range.

So amir, a forceps and a fine tip tweezer are more suitable for the small adjustments and bending that may be required. Typically if the wind is uniformly tensioned you will fire full microcoil the first or second pulse. If you've wound dual coils they will likely be balanced or nearly so if you matched the lead geometry. That's where the right tools make a difference. A ceramic tweezers will allow you to compress a coil or bend a lead while firing and the element is warm. Very delicately and not too much. This is often enough to cure small imperfections created in the setting or set of the coil/s or uneven tension of the wind or leads.

If not, wind another one. It takes seconds. It's not worth hours of our lives trying to fix anomalies. They are artifacts in the way of a great vape. Fixing and twiddlingwas what we did trying to fix imperfect coils interminably as we did.

Stop it. Just wind another that is. That's reasonable and takes a lot less time.

So a good practice is to wind an extra one or two coils. You have a backup. If not extra/s for the next build. It costs pennies! Our time is precious.

Good luck all.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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The coils will spread if their length is less than the distance between posts. Because when you then pull leads into/to the posts, the coils are stretching to reach. If leads exit on the same side of the coil, do this: using needle nose, bend the leads away from the coil (~45 degrees or less) before removing from the mandrel. Now when the leads are pulled into post holes, this bend will cause compression, rather than stretching, of the coil. Here's a crude text art picture: \==/ And as mentioned, keeping the mandrel in the coil during mounting helps prevent deformation -- particularly of end wraps. Cheers

Great point. I support the end turns always when I make such adjustments with the end turn buttressed by the face of the pin vise's collet. If the pin vise is too wide for the adjustment, I use a screw driver of the same or slightly smaller diameter being very careful not to compress the diameter of the end turn. So for example using this technique you can insert the bit and using pressure from the vice move it towards center and better alignment with an air hole. Or, in the opposite direction. By using the open or opposite side of the coil, you can tug at the lead and form or tighten it against the bit.

Then you can end up with something like this…

IMG_1070a.jpg


Good luck all.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Mac, any thoughts on center-draw vertical coils i.e. a vertical microcoil with wick around the outside? Tried this thinking that greater surface area via outside wicking and direct airflow through the center might be great. Tried a couple iterations and decided vape through the center (of the coil) was getting too hot. Didn't feel hot, but tasted overheated. Thinking there must be too much heat build up in the center with 8-wrap coil (i.e. so of like an oven versus and a stove-top) so tried using 32g and only 6-wraps -- but same result.

Have you played with an external w/center wicking; especially in verticals? Thinking that maybe a vertical cone build might bypass this issue -- but couldn't get a good tension build in cone configuration. Have you tried or have any insights?

No I haven't I bypassed all of the experiments on ECF and elsewhere on enclosed verticals. But I'm far too busy working on stuff beginners and folks migrating to rebuilding. Stuff they can more easily attempt and succeed with. I personally experiment with everything edgy. Just little time. I did conclude though after much reading that the success ratio for verticals in say Protanks was not as high as I'd like to see. I attributed this to the dissimilar lead length as it's hard to maintain end turn tension in such a redic closed space. I love ceramic cup devices and verticals would be awesome in them. Just not thrilled with the idea of the effort vs the return. If it were purely a hobby for me, lol, it'd probably be all that I'd be doin.

Alll I can say bro is good luck! You're a better man than I for tryin'.

:D

I'll stick to vertical duals and quads in the tamer big deck drippers. And let you young bucks have at it.
 
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smacksy

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Is there a trick to keep a micro coil from separating when installing? I typically do a 9/10 wrap on 3/32" drill bit and frequently end up with the coil separating when pushing the wire through the posts. I know they need to be placed a bit further away from the post to keep this from happening, but no matter how far away I attempt to install I still end up with the separation too often.
08d981d71f7dcc16a0bdc24c6452a6b1.jpg
f4cafee2abbbef9e90bf6d7d0a795f39.jpg

These are parallel 26g micro coils in my 28.5 mm Stillare... I've found it easier to leave them on the 3mm bit that I wrapped them on while installing the legs into the post holes..then simply tighten down the screws and gently pull the bit out...works for me every time with perfectly installed coils.. Hope this helps..

from Droid Maxx using Tapatalk
 
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Anus Braun

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Anyway, thought I'd get back to ya Jeep. Does the above pic I posted look like something created by a poser? Could you do one in 15 seconds that stayed like that (without torching)? Just sayin'. I wasn't cryptic. I described the adaptation of another branch of physics. I can tell you a considerable amount of time and other resources were spent to establish that it worked reliably, predictably and wasn't going to waste your time. The picture does say a lot about what you can expect…if you use a little imagination.

Given the number of these I've created and the probable numbers the thousands that have learned to do this so far suggests it is a very effective art. Methods of applying it, that's a different story. Maybe you'll contribute one. At least that's been my hope and many are using the adaptation to come up with new and varied techniques themselves.

One of the first to apply the adaptation was super_X_drifter on ECF who had the guts to put it all out there and hazard the skepticism. I read his stuff carefully before I quit and joined the forum to perfect the mechanics. Here's his second video. A good effort but it doesn't adequately show how to reach the point of adhesion. He definitely gets there though towards the end…




My primary purpose in doing this was to create the means for newcomers to transition quickly to the vaping lifestyle and bypass the gauntlet of devices and failed solutions many of us go through. Sometimes for years. As a community we have a lot of challenges from our opposition. I am confident this may help improve our chances by improving the numbers.

I hope you'll join me in my efforts popularize this innovation once you see the benefits. A minimum of 20% efficiency advantage translates to a very good vape in and of itself (and rich dense clouds too if that's what you're chasin'). Being able to reproduce it reliably is priceless.

Good luck.

:)

p.s. Thanks super!
Reminds me of the fine art of coiling springs, manually
 

MacTechVpr

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Just got a torch .... +100 on this advice.

Yeah, but 30 seconds gets you a tensioned microcoil that ends up like this…


IMG_1416a.jpg


And then you get chaining like this on 15 Watts...


IMG_1431a.jpg


Or, you can keep your torch. Your choice. Wouldn't want to tell ya what to do.

Good luck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Hey smacks, how ya doin'. The vape's off a Kanger Mini RBA accessory. Very easy to build as it traps the wire (no wrapping). So it's very sympathetic to the stiff twisted lead tensioned parallels I build. I love that arrangement as my fav flavor device is the Immortalizer. Got four. The APV's the Smok BT50 and I kinda looked at testing it (I do self-funded product eval) as kind of a gimmick with the Bluetooth thing but it's shown' me some very smooth and consistent power delivery. Anyway, some info here on this wind. On the two threads where I live on ECF. But if you need some help gettin' there gimme a shout.

Good luck.

:)


IMG_1418a.jpg
 

Cloudz4Days

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Hey smacks, how ya doin'. The vape's off a Kanger Mini RBA accessory. Very easy to build as it traps the wire (no wrapping). So it's very sympathetic to the stiff twisted lead tensioned parallels I build. I love that arrangement as my fav flavor device is the Immortalizer. Got four. The APV's the Smok BT50 and I kinda looked at testing it (I do self-funded product eval) as kind of a gimmick with the Bluetooth thing but it's shown' me some very smooth and consistent power delivery. Anyway, some info here on this wind. On the two threads where I live on ECF. But if you need some help gettin' there gimme a shout.

Good luck.

:)


View attachment 14533
What gauge are you using mac? Tensioned coils are amazing btw. Been doing it for a while now. Couldn't be more pleased
 

MacTechVpr

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What gauge are you using mac? Tensioned coils are amazing btw. Been doing it for a while now. Couldn't be more pleased

Cloudz posted the specs on the Post Your Builds a few days back…

30AWG TLP 6/5, 2.5mm i.d., 9mm L/L, t.m.c. = .0.4345Ω
^ MAJOR TYPO HERE, should be 26-guage!

The original version of this wind I posted earlier here, a counter-wound dual center post oxidized into a single tensioned micro. The most powerful, durable wind I've ever done.

I'm hopeful peep's will find this one easier to build and get a great vape from it. Put this together for low power variables capable of hitting that res mark and to deliver good production in the 15-20W range which it does profusely. Obviously, change of wire gauge for different power modes but the Sub's do real well there with this wind. And it seems like twice the power.

This one fires very fast smooth and relatively hot for a dual right in that zone and converts the incredibly airy SubMini to a reasonable facsimile of a flavor density tank at the same time. Good balance for me since I enjoy both volume and flavor. Moderate chaining which I couldn't reliably get on the Mega with higher power. This allows higher power. The coil's def capable of it but with a longer draw requirement to provide sufficient airflow/vaporization and avoid drying out the wick. Long smooth vaporful chucks. Lot of quick hits at high power will dry it. Cotton can't keep up with that with this build given the juice channels.

Note, on the Subs you can restore flow quick enough if you dry out chaining. Just reduce the vacuum pressure with a slight puff holding the air hole slit and your back in biz. On the Mega that would risk flooding the base with the v2.

Hope this helps. Enjoy the vape!

Good luck.

:)

IMG_1396a.jpg
 
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CrazyVpr

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Yeah, but 30 seconds gets you a tensioned microcoil that ends up like this…


View attachment 14527


And then you get chaining like this on 15 Watts...


View attachment 14528


Or, you can keep your torch. Your choice. Wouldn't want to tell ya what to do.

Good luck.

:)
No way does that only take you 30 seconds with the twisted ends and all. I think you need a new watch. Video for proof.
 

MacTechVpr

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No way does that only take you 30 seconds with the twisted ends and all. I think you need a new watch. Video for proof.

Thirty seconds to wind…never said build. But it's not too much beyond that no. And I have motor control issues. Not a droid yet, LOL.

The PIA with parallels is keeping the damn leads parallel through the build. That's the focus here and well worth the effort in time for the performance advantage stable geometry yields for the workin' part.

My bad if I gave the wrong impression.

Good luck.

:)
 

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