Lets discuss studies!!!!

So I was looking at some studies that suggest at certain temperatures the levels of formaldyde increase to unsafe level (seriously 430c is where your coil would probably be glowing red and burning the cotton I think) Would that mean chain vaping on a sub ohm would cause the same reaction? Its quite plausible considering sub ohm from what I understand can heat up higher but cools down quickly enough that the heat created doesnt burn. Its pretty interesting to think about (I'm a newer vaper so my knowledge isnt very large if I'm not understanding correctly I would love to hear more about it. Its very interesting )

What studies do you guys find interesting or maybe have one that you think is cool?

The studies I have seen are not recreating real world vaping and are just a bunch of shit. Like that fool on another forum who is testing temperatures but will not listen to any constructive criticism of his testing methods.

SteveS45 said:

The studies I have seen are not recreating real world vaping and are just a bunch of shit. Like that fool on another forum who is testing temperatures but will not listen to any constructive criticism of his testing methods.

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Oh I see so how do they test them because they dont really release that information I thought they were having someone blow into a test tube o.o

My own study. Vaping over 7 years, and still healthy

Bodytemp said:

Oh I see so how do they test them because they dont really release that information I thought they were having someone blow into a test tube o.o

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What I have seen and had to stop even reading anymore is they flame out coils to produce bad chemicals which no one would actually continue vaping. Want to see me make carcinogens then watch while I dry burn a coil until it lights on fire. Do you really think anyone vapes burnt hits? There is no combustion when I vape..........

SteveS45 said:

What I have seen and had to stop even reading anymore is they flame out coils to produce bad chemicals which no one would actually continue vaping. Want to see me make carcinogens then watch while I dry burn a coil until it lights on fire. Do you really think anyone vapes burnt hits? There is no combustion when I vape..........

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Oh I see sorry I made an assumption I'll definitely keep that in mind when I'm reading other studies. I've never experienced a dry hit but I've experienced gunky coils before.

Bodytemp said:

Oh I see sorry I made an assumption I'll definitely keep that in mind when I'm reading other studies. I've never experienced a dry hit but I've experienced gunky coils before.

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Have you changed a coil because it tasted burnt or not like it should? In my opinion that is how they test and collect the data in those studies using flaming gunked up and wasted coils. Remember this is just my opinion and not based on any scientific studies. But I have checked the external temperature of my own coils and the temperatures I recorded were so much lower than what is claimed and in my opinion you should be checking the temperature where the vapor is produced and not the internal temperature of the metals. The vapor is produced on the external surface area and not inside.

AGAIN I MUST STRESS this is my personal observations not scientific studies.

Thanks for posting this because it proves my point exactly. "No one would vape like this"..........

SteveS45 said:

Have you changed a coil because it tasted burnt or not like it should? In my opinion that is how they test and collect the data in those studies using flaming gunked up and wasted coils. Remember this is just my opinion and not based on any scientific studies. But I have checked the external temperature of my own coils and the temperatures I recorded were so much lower than what is claimed and in my opinion you should be checking the temperature where the vapor is produced and not the internal temperature of the metals. The vapor is produced on the external surface area and not inside.

AGAIN I MUST STRESS this is my personal observations not scientific studies.

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Usually if I taste weird then I throw the coil and replace it. I see what you mean though I'll actually look at doing my own studies as well

JuicyLucy said:

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This makes so much more sense than the studies wow thank you for the video!!

600°C? You must be fucking kidding me but most who see the study only see 600° and do not realize what that actual temperature is. Thanks for posting that video @JuicyLucy because it was one I could actually watch! Suck my MOD!

Bodytemp said:

Oh I see so how do they test them because they dont really release that information I thought they were having someone blow into a test tube o.o

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They had one where a machine pulled steadily on a mod for umpteen hours straight that they released to try to prove vaping was dangerous - I forget the foregone conclusion of that debacle, but it is just one of many

There is big profit for dishonest "scientists and researchers" to scoop up grant money to create very bad studies that are later trumpeted out by clueless media outlets and personalities (Dr Oz is my favorite but there are many others ) "proving" vaping is dangerous or even more deadly than smoking

None have held up water under real scrutiny, but they are repeated ad naseum - the popcorn lung study is probably the most enduring; very shoddy work and big profit

When I've tried to discuss this with some folks, they say things like "but why would they do that? They WANT people to quit smoking!"

NO, THEY ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO QUIT SMOKING. Why else would those patches and gum be so fucking laughably useless? If BP added WTA to patches and gum and especially, those Nicotrol inhalers, their effectiveness would increase. Why wouldn't they want that, you ask? Why do you think?!?! If they actually worked, people would quit, and NOT NEED THEM ANYMORE! They wouldn't BUY them anymore! This is the entire problem of them treating smoking as if it's a medical condition to be "treated" -- if they "treat" it successfully, people quit and don't need that "medicine" anymore! People who quit smoking also tend to not need so much medication for asthma and COPD, or hey.. CANCER! Do you know what that shit costs?!?!?! Guess who profits?!?!?!

Plus the fact that if everyone quit smoking, all those useless ANTZ in "tobacco control" WOULD BE OUT OF JOBS!!! And worst of all... who would they demonize and belittle, if there were no more smokers??? God knows, they can't demonize and belittle fat people, they might get their widdle feelings hurt and eat another bag of donuts.

Andria

AndriaD said:

When I've tried to discuss this with some folks, they say things like "but why would they do that? They WANT people to quit smoking!"

NO, THEY ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO QUIT SMOKING. Why else would those patches and gum be so fucking laughably useless? If BP added WTA to patches and gum and especially, those Nicotrol inhalers, their effectiveness would increase. Why wouldn't they want that, you ask? Why do you think?!?! If they actually worked, people would quit, and NOT NEED THEM ANYMORE! They wouldn't BUY them anymore! This is the entire problem of them treating smoking as if it's a medical condition to be "treated" -- if they "treat" it successfully, people quit and don't need that "medicine" anymore! People who quit smoking also tend to not need so much medication for asthma and COPD, or hey.. CANCER! Do you know what that shit costs?!?!?! Guess who profits?!?!?!

Plus the fact that if everyone quit smoking, all those useless ANTZ in "tobacco control" WOULD BE OUT OF JOBS!!! And worst of all... who would they demonize and belittle, if there were no more smokers??? God knows, they can't demonize and belittle fat people, they might get their widdle feelings hurt and eat another bag of donuts.

Andria

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Sadly, this is true

I enjoy reading the studies, I learn a lot from the actual data rather than the erroneous claims. The truth about aldehyde formation in vaping is quite interesting. One study showed that aldehydes are formed by VG at temperatures lower than with PG.. The question is how hot our juice actually gets at a given coil temperature - a saturated wick doesn't suddenly go to 400 deg when the coil does, but likely the juice just beneath the coil reaches that temperature. I suggest reading for yourself, In my opinion, the truth is somewhere between "aldehydes are higher vaping than smoking" claims and the "nothing is there, the studies are false" claims

Testing of actual vaping devices:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5377270/

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0169811
This study used a "reactor" to heat liquids to the temperatures noted, this tesitng was not with actual vaping devices. Still its of interest since it shows VG and PG alone producing aldehydes.

"In this study, the amounts of formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, and acrolein from GL were 21.10±3.80, 2.40±0.99, and 0.80±0.50 μg/mg-GL at 318°C, respectively. It is noteworthy that the level of formaldehyde was about ten times higher from GL than from PG at the same temperature. Furthermore, the evolution of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde began at relatively lower temperatures (108 and 215°C, respectively), while the development of acrolein began at a relatively higher temperature (~270°C) (Fig 3b). "

As noted, this study also indicates that the formation of aldehydes and Acrolein can come from VG ("GL" below), and aldehydes from PG alone, with no flavorings. Keep in mind the study below heated the liquids to those temperatures, therefore the results are not indicative of the carbonyls generated from a vaping device with the COIL at those temperatures (indeed, other studies have shown low amounts for modern devices at normal power levels):



So, somethings there. How much? Likely not much at low power levels, moderate temperatures. But if you're vaping high VG at high power, high coil temperatures, there's little doubt in my mind your getting some amount of aldehydes, though I would suspect far less than smoking (if you've vaping at 600F you might be close, lol).

David Wolf said:

I enjoy reading the studies, I learn a lot from the actual data rather than the erroneous claims. The truth about aldehyde formation in vaping is quite interesting. One study showed that aldehydes are formed by VG at temperatures lower than with PG.. The question is how hot our juice actually gets at a given coil temperature - a saturated wick doesn't suddenly go to 400 deg when the coil does, but likely the juice just beneath the coil reaches that temperature. I suggest reading for yourself, In my opinion, the truth is somewhere between "aldehydes are higher vaping than smoking" claims and the "nothing is there, the studies are false" claims

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5377270/
"In this study, the amounts of formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, and acrolein from GL were 21.10±3.80, 2.40±0.99, and 0.80±0.50 μg/mg-GL at 318°C, respectively. It is noteworthy that the level of formaldehyde was about ten times higher from GL than from PG at the same temperature. Furthermore, the evolution of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde began at relatively lower temperatures (108 and 215°C, respectively), while the development of acrolein began at a relatively higher temperature (~270°C) (Fig 3b). "
And this study also indicates that the formation of aldehydes and Acrolein can come from VG ("GL" below), and aldehydes from PG alone, with no flavorings. Keep in mind the study below heated the liquids to those temperatures, therefore the results are not indicative of the carbonyls generated from a vaping device with the COIL at those temperatures (indeed, other studies have shown low amounts for modern devices at normal power levels):
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0169811

So, somethings there. How much? Likely not much at low power levels, moderate temperatures. But if you're vaping high VG at high power, high coil temperatures, there's little doubt in my mind your getting some amount of aldehydes, though I would suspect far less than smoking (if you've vaping at 600F you might be close, lol).

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Reading shit like that makes me SOOOOOO glad a) I vape 86% PG, and b) I vape it at <10w.

Andria

AndriaD said:

Reading shit like that makes me SOOOOOO glad a) I vape 86% PG, and b) I vape it at <10w.

Andria

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ahaha same here, I'm at 80pg/20vg, 10 to 11W. I have actually tested my coils with a thermocouple at 11W, and I'm around 380F, a decent place to be in vaping. If I did vape high VG, I would definitely add 5% or so of water to reducing the vaporization point

David Wolf said:

ahaha same here. I have actually tested my coils with a thermocouple at 11W, and I'm around 380F, a decent place to be in vaping. If I did vape high VG, I would definitely add 5% or so of water to reducing the vaporization point

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I tried adding water when I was trying out higher VG, so it wouldn't glue my airways closed so badly, but I didn't like it, it made it too poppy/splatty.

I've tried out 2 versions of TC vaping, and didn't like either one; titanium was just plain underwhelming as hell, no TH at all and very little flavor, and stainless... well, the Coolfire4-TC-18650 won't use a ramp-up wattage lower than 25w... and that's just too damn hot for me! Evfen when I set it at its lowest temp setting, that 25w ramp-up just totally fucked it up, so I figure, vaping at <10w is the very DEFINITION of "temperature control": -- it's not hot at all!!!! It's barely fucking WARM! Plus I just don't like the flavor I get, using stainless; all I can taste is the cotton wick, not the juice at all. 29ga kanthal for me, <10w, that's all the temp control I'll ever need.

Andria

Hmm so maybe vaping on a smok v8 stick with 70VG 30 PG may not be a good idea hmm I may look into PG based but I get itchy throat from too much pg oh well Im going to die anyway may as well enjoy it hahah

Yeah i read a study once when i started and thought "arrrgghhhh...what am i doing to myself!?" :
Then i later read a follow up where someone with a brain confronted them and said something like this "you know at those stated temps the vape device itself would melt?" They apparently in a sheepish slimy way virtually agreed it was not in normal vaping parameters and conducted at exagerated temperatures. Dipsticks.

AndriaD said:

God knows, they can't demonize and belittle fat people, they might get their widdle feelings hurt and eat another bag of donuts.

Andria

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AndriaD said:

I tried adding water when I was trying out higher VG, so it wouldn't glue my airways closed so badly, but I didn't like it, it made it too poppy/splatty.

I've tried out 2 versions of TC vaping, and didn't like either one; titanium was just plain underwhelming as hell, no TH at all and very little flavor, and stainless... well, the Coolfire4-TC-18650 won't use a ramp-up wattage lower than 25w... and that's just too damn hot for me! Evfen when I set it at its lowest temp setting, that 25w ramp-up just totally fucked it up, so I figure, vaping at <10w is the very DEFINITION of "temperature control": -- it's not hot at all!!!! It's barely fucking WARM! Plus I just don't like the flavor I get, using stainless; all I can taste is the cotton wick, not the juice at all. 29ga kanthal for me, <10w, that's all the temp control I'll ever need.

Andria

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I'm convinced you don't need temperature control for safer vaping by the tests I've done showing that a lower power setting of 8 to 12 W can keep the coil temperature for my MTL devices at 400 deg F or less. For those vaping moderate power DL worth a lot of air the same is probably true as well though I haven't tested those.

Bodytemp said:

Hmm so maybe vaping on a smok v8 stick with 70VG 30 PG may not be a good idea hmm I may look into PG based but I get itchy throat from too much pg oh well Im going to die anyway may as well enjoy it hahah

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Depends on your power level and coil temperature. If your vapors not real hot I wouldn't worry it's still better than smoking by far.

David Wolf said:

Depends on your power level and coil temperature. If your vapors not real hot I wouldn't worry it's still better than smoking by far.

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its warmish like not unbearably hot like when i close the air for mtl its a 3.7v device

http://www.smoktech.com/kit/stick-v8 all specs are in this link

I vape as harm reduction over smoking, so I'm most interested in the actual impact on human tissue. That's why I wish the ecig industry standard would move beyond measuring a few isolated components in the liquids we vape and towards formal toxicology studies like FEM2-Ambiente is doing with FlavourArt (http://www.clearstreamonward.com/test-on-the-model/). Results from their studies are more relevant & meaningful to me than knowing the percentage/presence of 2 or 3 individual chemicals in the liquid I'm vaping:

HeadInClouds said:

I vape as harm reduction over smoking, so I'm most interested in the actual impact on human tissue. That's why I wish the ecig industry standard would move beyond measuring a few isolated components in the liquids we vape and towards formal toxicology studies like FEM2-Ambiente is doing with FlavourArt (http://www.clearstreamonward.com/test-on-the-model/). Results from their studies are more relevant & meaningful to me than knowing the percentage/presence of 2 or 3 individual chemicals in the liquid I'm vaping:
View attachment 88794

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I agree that *would* be a lot more useful than trying to test a CE4 at 11w! But by the same token... that kind of testing could also be taken completely out of context; if they find ONE *part per billion* of *anything* even remotely harmful, the media will act like there's an F5 tornado right outside the door... because the media are bloody idiots who shouldn't be allowed in public without a leash and a muzzle and a keeper.

The "diketone debacle" is an excellent case in point -- bronchiolitis obliterans is STILL vanishingly rare, despite the fact that 40 yrs ago, nearly half the entire population smoked... and tobacco has a LOT of naturally-occurring diacetyl -- a lot more than would be found in ANY ejuice or flavoring. By this point, with millions of people vaping, if diketones in ejuice was going to be a real problem, it would have already shown up, and it hasn't. A quote from Lestat seems in order: "You keep saying that... and it KEEPS NOT HAPPENING!"

Andria

Actually to be honest the only issue Ive had with vaping thus far was when the toxins were coming out of my system and causing me to have laryngitis (rip me) not really linked to vaping but the side effect of quitting but so far thats the only thing. My doctor is encouraging me to continue because I used to have severe bronchitis from smoking now I don't Positives upon positives;

Bodytemp said:

Usually if I taste weird then I throw the coil and replace it. I see what you mean though I'll actually look at doing my own studies as well

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Same here ... I like mixes that tend to gunk my coils quickly. Gunk is highly correlated with acrolein and aldehydes (nasty stuff cited earlier) ... so, frequent coil changes no only make for a more pleasurable vape, it is 'safer'. How much safer? That part is debatable and needs more research.

iVapeDIY said:

Same here ... I like mixes that tend to gunk my coils quickly. Gunk is highly correlated with acrolein and aldehydes (nasty stuff cited earlier) ... so, frequent coil changes no only make for a more pleasurable vape, it is 'safer'. How much safer? That part is debatable and needs more research.

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Maybe that's why my husband objects to the smell so much, if I vape my strawberry & cream till the coil is black and the wick brown -- he says it smells like "burnt shit." That's why I had to move from a tank to an RDA for that ejuice, so if there was wastage from gunk backwashing, it was only a few drops rather than a few ml. Also much easier for frequent re-wicks.

Andria

AndriaD said:

Maybe that's why my husband objects to the smell so much, if I vape my strawberry & cream till the coil is black and the wick brown -- he says it smells like "burnt shit." That's why I had to move from a tank to an RDA for that ejuice, so if there was wastage from gunk backwashing, it was only a few drops rather than a few ml. Also much easier for frequent re-wicks.

Andria

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to be honest that gunk must be caused by sweeteners because my non sweet juice doesnt gunk but the sweet juices do.

Bodytemp said:

to be honest that gunk must be caused by sweeteners because my non sweet juice doesnt gunk but the sweet juices do.

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I thought the sweetener was the biggest reason, too, because at first I used 2.5% sweetener. But now I use .1% sweetener, and it's still pretty bad. It just depends on the flavorings.

Andria