Flavor Percentages?

zeeter · Sep 7, 2017

I'm going to start small with building my first batch. Just getting small amounts of nicotine/VG, PG, and VG, plus a couple of flavorings and equipment. I don't want to spend a lot of money if it's something I don't like doing.

What I'm wondering is what's a good percentage of flavorings versus the base? And I realize it all depends on various factors, such as the strength of the concentrate, the intended flavor, and numerous other things.

Really, it's where is a good percentage to start if I'm not sure? I've seen recipes where people are putting in 3% flavorings and others where they go up to 15%. Once I have a starting point I can adjust from there.

I've been using the Steam Engine and that site is great for figuring out the ratios.

kross8 · Sep 7, 2017

zeeter said:
I'm going to start small with building my first batch. Just getting small amounts of nicotine/VG, PG, and VG, plus a couple of flavorings and equipment. I don't want to spend a lot of money if it's something I don't like doing.

What I'm wondering is what's a good percentage of flavorings versus the base? And I realize it all depends on various factors, such as the strength of the concentrate, the intended flavor, and numerous other things.

Really, it's where is a good percentage to start if I'm not sure? I've seen recipes where people are putting in 3% flavorings and others where they go up to 15%. Once I have a starting point I can adjust from there.

I've been using the Steam Engine and that site is great for figuring out the ratios.

welcome,, i would advise to first find an established recipe,, buy the flavors to get a feel for it. i made the mistake of buying lots of FA flavors,,, and not being real happy with my voodoo mixing (not bashing FA)............so my advise is find something like DIY or DIe's 'funfetti' recipe,, and make that ((if you like bakery/cookie recipes/flavors),,,,,what i like about his recipe,, you can delete parts of it and still be just fine),,,,,,,,,,you can delete half of the recipe and add fruit and it becomes something very tasty in another theme.

i think its normal to start 'high' with 20% flavorings,,, and discover over time that 10% is good for you as your tastebuds heal..........some people use as little as 1%,, there is no perfect number

sometimes i would find a recipe that had high numbers,, i would still make it the way the person noted,, but only the flavors part,,,,,,,then i would use that part to 'dose' my base mix.

anyway,, have fun with it,,,,,,,,,but i really would find 1 recipe at a time to find your way and save yourself frustration and money

SteveS45 · Sep 7, 2017

When starting DIY in my opinion, I think it is best to start off with standalone flavors so you can perfect them before making complex recipes. Pick one flavor like a fruit and start off at a low percentage and taste it, then you tweak it until you get it how you like it. Once you get a couple of standalone flavors then do a tank mix to see how they work together and before you know it your recipe file has grown beyond your imagination.

PS: For percentages try to see if the manufacturer has recommendations.

The Cromwell · Sep 7, 2017

I do between 7 and 10%. Using mostly Capella flavorings.
Many recipes are between 15 and 20%.
With a little maths and a mixing app you can adjust the percentages.
When trying a new recipe i usually adjust the percentages down towards 10% total flavorings and then nix up a 10 ml batch.
I use 1 ml syringes for flavorings unless mixing a large batch then use either a 3 or 5 ml syringe. The smallest syringe that will hold the quantity desired will give more accurate results than say using a 5 ml syringe fo say .75 ml.

zeeter · Sep 7, 2017

Good plan starting with a stand-alone flavor rather than trying to mix it up and complicate things.

SteveS45 · Sep 7, 2017

zeeter said:
Good plan starting with a stand-alone flavor rather than trying to mix it up and complicate things.

It worked for me because I was able to perfect the flavors to my liking and then started mixing them together. You can also buy flavors that are already mixed like Strawberry Cheesecake and Orange Banana for examples.

AndriaD · Sep 7, 2017

zeeter said:
Good plan starting with a stand-alone flavor rather than trying to mix it up and complicate things.

All that will really do is familiarize you with the taste of the flavorings, which isn't a bad thing at all, but it doesn't lend itself to a great vape; for something you want to vape all the time, or a lot of the time, you need something maybe more complex, maybe more subtle, with shadings of flavor that rise and fall as the juice stands in the bottle,the wattage, the build, the atty, the airflow, or just depending on your taste/smell that day.

Some brands of flavors were never intended to be used alone, such as The Flavor Apprentice flavors; the only TFA flavor that was actually vapable as a stand-alone flavor is the Banana Nut Bread, which obviously is already compounded of quite a few discrete flavors that go together nicely. Pretty much all their others are meant to be building blocks, not entire buildings.

Andria

The Cromwell · Sep 7, 2017

If you like vanilla custard vapes. Capella vanilla custard v1

gopher_byrd · Sep 8, 2017

Some good tips already given in this thread for you. An easy way to get started on a proven recipe is to head over to Bull City Flavors and check out their Community Recipe Packs if you're in the US. They have some great choices there and with one click you'll get all the flavors to make that recipe. Here's the link: http://www.bullcityflavors.com/community-recipe-packs/ I don't work for them, it would be fun though, just a happy customer.

Check out VU's huge DIY forum for ideas, recipes, tips, and tricks as well. Actually this thread should be there, there may be some mixers that don't venture out of the DIY forum that won't see it here. @Huckleberried @Markw4mms maybe move this to DIY General Discussion for more eyes?

Markw4mms · Sep 8, 2017

gopher_byrd said:
Some good tips already given in this thread for you. An easy way to get started on a proven recipe is to head over to Bull City Flavors and check out their Community Recipe Packs if you're in the US. They have some great choices there and with one click you'll get all the flavors to make that recipe. Here's the link: http://www.bullcityflavors.com/community-recipe-packs/ I don't work for them, it would be fun though, just a happy customer.

Check out VU's huge DIY forum for ideas, recipes, tips, and tricks as well. Actually this thread should be there, there may be some mixers that don't venture out of the DIY forum that won't see it here. @Huckleberried @Markw4mms maybe move this to DIY General Discussion for more eyes?

Annnnnnnd it's moved!

RonJS · Sep 8, 2017

To get an idea where to start with a single flavor...Google it.

For example...the results for INW Peach include...

e-Liquid Calculator :: Flavor :: Peach (Inawera) - e-Liquid Recipes
e-liquid-recipes.com/flavor/2307
Peach - Inawera Flavours. 1 2 3 4 5. (56). Percentages in recipes. Average mixing quantity: 2.3% (Median: 2%) Minimum used quantity: 0% Maximum used ...

Ron
---
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."- Marcus Aurelius

jambi · Sep 8, 2017

zeeter said:
I'm going to start small with building my first batch. Just getting small amounts of nicotine/VG, PG, and VG, plus a couple of flavorings and equipment. I don't want to spend a lot of money if it's something I don't like doing.

What I'm wondering is what's a good percentage of flavorings versus the base? And I realize it all depends on various factors, such as the strength of the concentrate, the intended flavor, and numerous other things.

Really, it's where is a good percentage to start if I'm not sure? I've seen recipes where people are putting in 3% flavorings and others where they go up to 15%. Once I have a starting point I can adjust from there.

I've been using the Steam Engine and that site is great for figuring out the ratios.

If you've already got some flavors in hand, tell us what brands/flavors they are, and you'll get a lot of suggestions specific to those particular flavors.

When I test new flavors, I don't always research them first. Sometimes I determine rough starting percents by brand, but that's still not an entirely foolproof way to go about it. When in doubt, start low.

zeeter · Sep 10, 2017

jambi said:
If you've already got some flavors in hand, tell us what brands/flavors they are, and you'll get a lot of suggestions specific to those particular flavors.

When I test new flavors, I don't always research them first. Sometimes I determine rough starting percents by brand, but that's still not an entirely foolproof way to go about it. When in doubt, start low.

NicVape E-Flavors:
Bourbon
Whisky
Carolina Tobacco

DIY E-Liquid Supplies:
Sour (TFA)
Sweetener (TFA)
Smooth (TFA)
English Toffee (FW)

I'm going for a bourbon tobacco flavor with a bit of sweetness in it. Thinking smooth, sweet, tobacco, and bourbon. I'll probably go very light on the enhancers and maybe 60/40 bourbon/tobacco for the rest.

They also sent me Tiramisu as a free gift. It got me thinking of a bourbon/Italian desert flavor.

Bourbon goes with everything.

Yes, I like bourbon.

jambi · Sep 10, 2017

NicVape is not a brand I've experience with, so dug and found these:
http://e-liquid-recipes.com/flavor/24889?exclsingle=0&filter=0&sort=score&direction=desc#recipes
http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/437771/Kentukolina
http://e-liquid-recipes.com/flavor/145310

Looks like people favor the higher end for the Carolina. Still, I'd start testing at something low like 2%, to get a feel for how it's going to work. While you're at it, test the Bourbon too.

Once you've got an idea how to get those two in balance, go ahead and try combining them. I wouldn't try to incorporate any sweetener or additives in at this point, since you really don't know if it's even needed. Get your main profile sorted out, go from there.

Just my opinions...

zeeter · Sep 11, 2017

Yeah that seems like the way to go. No additives until later.

Been reading up on the steeping process. Looks like I have to wait a week or two before vaping it.

jambi · Sep 11, 2017

Steeping...I taste it fresh, (Tsunami running simple dual Clapton SS316, nothing fancy), toss it into the dark, then try it every 7 days. After a couple weeks I start tank-testing it, since that's where I do the majority of my vaping. Again nothing fancy, Griffins and TFV8s running various dual SS316 Clapton configurations.

If I feel it needs additives at this point, I'll mix another tester with those. If I'm just sweetening, I'll start playing with drops of CAP Super Sweet in the original tester. It's pretty rare for me to use additives, other than tiny amounts of EM to smooth rough edges. 99 % of the sweetener I use is in stuff I make for other people.

Post back with your progress. I'm curious about the NicVape tobaccos.

zeeter · Sep 12, 2017

Made three batches. First at 10ml - 1% each of Bourbon and Tobacco. First batch failed because I first had the nicotine level set at 25 mg/ml when it should have been 18 mg. Was going to just go with it until the decision was made for me by knocking over the mixing bottle.

Second try - much better and it is steeping now. Overnight with the lid on, today for an hour so far with the lid off. Will let it go for another two hours and put the lid back on.

Cleaned out and dried a couple of 30 ml bottles and made two new batches today. This time 6% bourbon and 4% tobacco. Went much smoother though I need to pay more attention to what I'm doing. A couple of times I was looking at the wrong columns and put 5 ml of the VG in when that was in the nic/vg column. A little adding straightened it out, but need to watch in case I get one that isn't so easy to correct.

Third one I had some fun. 5% Whiskey and 3% Tiramasu. This one went smoothly.

Lessons learned: VG is hard to draw out of the bottle. Maybe a larger gauge needle will help. Also, Steam puts the Nic value at the top. I like to put the Nic in last because it's the most expensive and if I screw up I'd rather it be on the cheaper ingredients. Yet I like to go in order so I read it wrong.

Also realized my flavors are PG based rather than VG, as I put in the recipe. I doubt this will affect the mixture in any noticable way.

zeeter · Sep 12, 2017

Begs the question: should I use a PG or VG base with my nicotine? PG seems easier to work with, but most recipes I've seen assume a VG base.

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

If you are going for max VG then use VG base since most flavorings are in PG.
If you are going for a max of 75 VG or so then use PG base.

AndriaD · Sep 12, 2017

The Cromwell said:
If you are going for max VG then use VG base since most flavorings are in PG.
If you are going for a max of 75 VG or so then use PG base.

This... but as you've seen, VG is a real pain in the ass, in a syringe, so you'd need to take VG-based nicotine out of the fridge for an hour or so to have any hope of drawing it up in a syringe. I use 14ga needles for VG, but it's still time-consuming; if I was using max-VG, I don't think I'd stick to syringes, but maybe use the by-weight measuring that a lot of folks seem to like -- it requires another piece of equipment, a very sensitive scale which measures grams and very small fractions of them, but apparently those can be had nowadays without breaking the bank.

Andria

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

Oral medicine syringes like this can be useful for handling base.
I get mine at a local Krogers for under $2.

zeeter · Sep 12, 2017

The Cromwell said:
If you are going for max VG then use VG base since most flavorings are in PG.
If you are going for a max of 75 VG or so then use PG base.

Now that I think of it, it's all going to come out even in the end. The calculators take into account if I'm using PG or VG bases and will adjust the pure PG or VG amounts accordingly. Unless I'm trying to go completely without PG, which I don't plan on doing, I don't think it matters.

zeeter · Sep 12, 2017

AndriaD said:
This... but as you've seen, VG is a real pain in the ass, in a syringe, so you'd need to take VG-based nicotine out of the fridge for an hour or so to have any hope of drawing it up in a syringe. I use 14ga needles for VG, but it's still time-consuming; if I was using max-VG, I don't think I'd stick to syringes, but maybe use the by-weight measuring that a lot of folks seem to like -- it requires another piece of equipment, a very sensitive scale which measures grams and very small fractions of them, but apparently those can be had nowadays without breaking the bank.

Andria

I'm using 14 gauge. Guess I'm stuck with the hassle. I mean, it's not the end of the world; just a little harder to deal with.

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

One thing to consider.
The higher the VG level the longer steep times required and more flavoring is required to get the same result as you would get with say a 50/50 mix.

SteveS45 · Sep 12, 2017

zeeter said:
Begs the question: should I use a PG or VG base with my nicotine? PG seems easier to work with, but most recipes I've seen assume a VG base.

I buy my Nicotine in VG because I make High or MAX VG and I do not have any problems with dispensing it with a syringe.

zeeter · Sep 12, 2017

SteveS45 said:
I buy my Nicotine in VG because I make High or MAX VG and I do not have any problems with dispensing it with a syringe.

It's not a problem, so to speak. More like it's hard to get it up into the syringe since it's so thick. Just something I learned and will have to get used to.

AndriaD · Sep 12, 2017

zeeter said:
It's not a problem, so to speak. More like it's hard to get it up into the syringe since it's so thick. Just something I learned and will have to get used to.

You can find higher-gauge, fatter needles, but most that I've seen aren't as long as those green-base 14ga luer locks. I got some 13ga and 12ga for making mods to some attys, narrowing their airholes; you can find 'em on ebay and amazon. Or, if you intend to stay with max-VG, maybe look into mixing by weight, with a scale. I personally find that pretty damn weird, measuring liquids by weight, but I don't use much VG, so it's not something I really *need* to do.

Andria

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

It would be nice if we had a mixing app that would afjust the flavoring percentages up or down based on the PG/VG ratio that the user desires to use.

SteveS45 · Sep 12, 2017

Another thing to consider when buying flavorings is VG Dominant flavors so you can make MAX VG and not have any PG at all.

AndriaD · Sep 12, 2017

The Cromwell said:
It would be nice if we had a mixing app that would afjust the flavoring percentages up or down based on the PG/VG ratio that the user desires to use.

Wouldn't suit me at all; though I've used 85%+ PG for more than 2 yrs, maybe closer to 3, I still need to use a lot of flavoring, to taste anything. It's weird how my nose is the next thing to a damn bloodhound's, yet my tastebuds so horribly impaired. Maybe it's a case of one sense becoming more acute to make up for the deficiencies of another... like blind people who develop keener hearing and sense of touch -- to me, braille just feels like "bumpy paper", no way I can make any sense of it.

Andria

jambi · Sep 12, 2017

Double post

jambi · Sep 12, 2017

zeeter said:
I'm using 14 gauge. Guess I'm stuck with the hassle. I mean, it's not the end of the world; just a little harder to deal with.

No hassle. I use VG nic. No syringes or pipettes for me thanks. Mix by weight, 150 ml bottle of nic in the fridge, when it's empty refill it from my freezer stash, easy.

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

I mix my PG and VG using a measuring cup and mixing in a 1 liter bottle.
I fill a plastic condiment bottle from that.
Then after placing nic and flavorings in a bottle I fill to the shoulder of the bottle using the premixed PG/VG in the condiment bottle.

I will use an oral medication syringe as pictured above when mixing small trial sizes of a recipe.

fozzy71 · Sep 12, 2017

zeeter said:
Went much smoother though I need to pay more attention to what I'm doing. A couple of times I was looking at the wrong columns and put 5 ml of the VG in when that was in the nic/vg column.

The diy juice calc I use has an option to bold the preferred mixing column - http://www.diyjuicecalculator.com/

zeeter said:
Lessons learned: VG is hard to draw out of the bottle.

mixing by weight is far easier for me. I keep my pg and vg (and working bottle of nic) in squeeze bottles and use a small funnel in my mix bottle

zeeter said:
Begs the question: should I use a PG or VG base with my nicotine? PG seems easier to work with, but most recipes I've seen assume a VG base.

vg nic seems to oxidize slower from what I have read and seen in a test recently on another forum here - https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...orage-freezer-vs-room-temp-experiment.791603/

That being said: I went with 50/50 for the bulk of my nic stash as it is easier to work with and the research I did at the time was up in the air about which was best for long term storage

gopher_byrd · Sep 12, 2017

If you know where 10 ml, 30 ml, 50 ml sit in a finished bottle here's a trick for your VG dilemma: put in your flavors, nic, and PG into your bottle first then add the VG to the place where it normally sits in the bottle when full. It's not precise, but for me it's close enough for government work*. That way you can use a condiment bottle, like you use for mustard or catsup at a picnic, for your VG. The condiment bottles are cheap at Walmart or Target or the equivalent where you live.

If you really get into this and fall down the rabbit hole like the rest of us, invest in a scale. They are relatively inexpensive, like $20 or so on Amazon. This thread will tell you everything you need to know about mixing by weight: http://vapingunderground.com/threads/guide-to-mixing-by-weight.22891/ I use the scale called out in that thread. It is so much easier than dealing with syringes IMHO...

* Definition of close enough for government work: measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk, and cut it with an axe.

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

Only problem I have mixing by weight is that you measure it AS you put it in the mix not BEFORE you put it in the mix.
If fumbly like me how do I get some of an ingredient out if I put too much in?

AndriaD · Sep 12, 2017

The Cromwell said:
Only problem I have mixing by weight is that you measure it AS you put it in the mix not BEFORE you put it in the mix.
If fumbly like me how do I get some of an ingredient out if I put too much in?

An excellent point. Using syringes does enable you to know just how much you're adding, before you actually add it. I like that idea of using an oral-medicine type syringe; alternately, you could use a 10ml syringe (the fat ones) and just hold your finger over the tip, while you pour the VG into the top of the syringe.

Andria

RonJS · Sep 12, 2017

The Cromwell said:
.... how do I get some of an ingredient out if I put too much in?

You might try mirrors & magic,

but I just put a bigger bottle on the scale and ramp up the recipe.

Ron
---
"He who takes the wrong road, makes the journey twice." -Paladin (Have Gun - Will Travel) 1960

gopher_byrd · Sep 12, 2017

The Cromwell said:
Only problem I have mixing by weight is that you measure it AS you put it in the mix not BEFORE you put it in the mix.
If fumbly like me how do I get some of an ingredient out if I put too much in?

Nic I'm really careful about, but if it's a Caps or TFA flavor and I put in a little too much I say the heck with it and vape it. Now if it is FLV Rich Cinnamon where one extra drop can really mess things up then it's time to double the recipe...

fozzy71 · Sep 12, 2017

The Cromwell said:
Only problem I have mixing by weight is that you measure it AS you put it in the mix not BEFORE you put it in the mix.
If fumbly like me how do I get some of an ingredient out if I put too much in?

I just try to be as precise as I can and don't worry if I go a few hundredths over on a flavor/nic or a tenth or two over on pg/vg. I normally make 100ml or larger batches so that little bit won't make a significant difference in the final product. I try to be as precise as possible when doing 20ml testers but again if I go a little over I don't worry about it.

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

AndriaD said:
An excellent point. Using syringes does enable you to know just how much you're adding, before you actually add it. I like that idea of using an oral-medicine type syringe; alternately, you could use a 10ml syringe (the fat ones) and just hold your finger over the tip, while you pour the VG into the top of the syringe.

Andria

The oral medicine syringes I use comes with a poly cork that fits 120 ml bottle tops and a bit larger.
So I just keep one 120 ml bottle with PG/VG mix and a cork and oral syringe stuck in the top.
Hold syringe and invert bottle and suck desired amount into syringe.
And I like the cost been getting them at Krogers for $1.47 ea with the Korc thingy.
I just leave them stuck in the tops of my 120 ml juice bottles. It is sealed up around them and sanitary.
Unless testing I always make 120 ml bttles of juice.
For testing I usually make 15 ml in a 30 ml dropper bottle.

I use the same setup for filling my squonk bottles with juice.

The Cromwell · Sep 12, 2017

My juice bottles in the back with oral syringes stuck in them.

Flavor Percentages?

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