nadalama
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Yes. Well said.
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Michigan first state to ban flavored ecigs
- Thread starter MC5
- Start date
Yes. Well said.
" I'm from the government and I'm here to help you".
I used to be in Aviation and had on occasion had to deal with the FAA. To be honest, they were a pretty decent bunch...
I am surprised they were not regulated and inspected...I don't have a problem with regulation. without it consumers would not have any type of assurance of the product they re using. Self regulation seldom works, there are too many companies/ people who would cut corners.
That will be the really sad thing in this. There are a lot of cool small companies out there (that I like) and I hate to think of them getting shut down for this bs.
jwill
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I largely disagree. In a free market consumers would be able to make decisions on what they wanted to put their money towards. Shady businesses would be outed and people would shop elsewhere, they might get over on a few but when someone has skin in the game they will do their homework and be a little more cautious as to what they use and put into their bodies.
Compound pharmacists were modern-day alchemists and they can whip up medicine for cheap and without certain ingredients if you react poorly to one. I rather liked the pharmacists I used then and since have refused pharmaceuticals largely. They were no more shut down for being dirty than vaping is getting shut down for killing people. Its all about money and power.
Big pharma did not want to compete on price, so they 86ed the competition. The companies that are "approved", regularly get sued for cutting corners. They are trying to squeeze the maximum amount of profit from everything and as such the quality suffers but the product is still "approved". Like with anything, I would rather take my chances with people I know and trust than to trust someone else to tell me that it is the best option because 100% of the time it is financially motivated to be the right choice if someone in the government is making that decision because lets be honest. To the government, cost and quality do not matter.
Pharmaceutical cuts every corner imaginable. People die constantly and the list of side effects is longer than the benefits. They make money hand over fist so the loss is considered acceptable. Lots of these companies actually build in lawsuit budgets to the products. For this same reason tobacco started adding all the chemicals that make tobacco so terrible. They want to use lower quality tobacco to produce more profit and so forth. Same for mass-produced food, automobiles, clothes, pick an industry and you can find something they are cutting corners on that will kill people.
Self regulation is the only thing that works. It is the only thing that has your own best interests in mind.
I certainly agree with you that Big P is behind most of this. I believe they are behind the news reports and lobbying gov agencies on both a state and federal level. They buy a lot of advertising on Tv and print media and donate to ACA, ALA and others. Though when a product is ingested, inhales or applied to the body there should be some sort of assurance of safety. Unfortunately some times regulation goes overboard.
jwill
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But to be fair "assurances of safety" are merely lip service. Arsenic was said to be safe for wallpaper at one point, same for lead paint, asbestos and a bajillion other things. Turns out they were/are killing people.
Regulations are a form of cancer. They start small and once the regulators realize how financially profitable they are the cancer spreads. Fun fact, there are so many regulations on the books and so many new ones and so many amendments to the existing and new ones, no one actually has a count of how many there are active. Due to these regulations, every single one of us breaks the law every single day and a felony is not out of the question by just doing what we do in the course of each day.
Also, just to be clear. I am not riding you or arguing for the sake of arguing. Hope I don't come across like that, sometimes meaning and tone get lost in words on a page. I am enjoying the conversation.
Oh there is absolutely no doubt about this.
I'd seriously rather have zero regulation of ANYthing than what we have today. The profit motive of business is no less honorable and in the long run no less reliable than the profit motive of bureaucracy. Which at bottom is just another form of business anyway and maybe an even less honest one.
The only thing I trust less than big business is big government. Put them in bed together and it's a recipe for... well.. take a look around.
I'll agree with you guys in spirit, and I don't trust government or business large or small.
jwill
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Businesses themselves are not bad. Its the people who get greedy and when that greed becomes their motivating factor is when they are corrupted. Governments are corrupted by nature.
WarpedFactor
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I think you misunderstand me... I don't want "the powers-that-be to protect us from ourselves", I am afraid they will anyway, and there is nothing I can do about it. I vape responsibly, I mix responsibly, I take care of myself. I don't expect anyone else to do it for me... I don't want anyone else to do it for me. I just want to be left alone to do my thing. The problem is there are too damned many who do want the government to "protect them", and when they get their wish, I lose my dream. Tell me what we can do to to prevent that, cos I am not seeing a path there. I think there are a lot of people here in that boat with me.
Please read my attached photo. Feel free to message our governor, our senator and our house representative.
Also, feel free to spread this picture around. What happens here in Michigan will impact all of you. Let's all stand together and fight this in any way we can.
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Also, feel free to spread this picture around. What happens here in Michigan will impact all of you. Let's all stand together and fight this in any way we can.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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Seems to me that for petitioning, or any form of protest for that matter, to have any hope of doing anything at all, we need to have the highest numbers we can in the same place. People who are starting petitions need to forget about who gets the credit and voluntarily decide on a single outlet to get all the signatures possible.
10 petitions with 100 names each isn't as effective as 1 petition with 1000.
THIS is one I found.
10 petitions with 100 names each isn't as effective as 1 petition with 1000.
THIS is one I found.
Thank you for that link!
My info isn't for a petition. I know there are several out there right now. The info I shared is so we can voice our frustration and disappointment directly to those in charge in the state of Michigan. Phone numbers to the offices, emails and social media. Petitions are good, but direct voicing of feelings is also a good way to fight for change. They can't ignore every email or social media message directed right at them.
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I wasn't addressing you personally. Just speaking in general
It's said to be good to live a rich Fantasy Life. Good luck with that.
nadalama
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No, I didn't misunderstand you. I totally agree with you. The problem comes from people who want to do whatever they decide to do and then blame someone else when things go pear-shaped. That's where the government et al take the opportunity to step in and treat everyone like they are incapable of looking after themselves.
It's become a societal problem, not just related to vaping. And I'd love to suggest remedies for it, but I'm afraid that the real, down-in-the-dirt reality of it is that there aren't any, at least not right now, not that I can see. You'd have to be able to change what has become the basic nature of an awful lot of people in ordder to accomplish that change.
It begins at home. People do what they see, what is modeled for them.
This is almost comical ... she is the same governor that has a flavored beer named after her!!
It's an orange and tangerine flavored beer named The Gov.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2019/05/15/the-gov-gets-her-beer/1164647001/
Hypocrite much?
It's an orange and tangerine flavored beer named The Gov.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2019/05/15/the-gov-gets-her-beer/1164647001/
Hypocrite much?
WarpedFactor
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OK, this might seem a little off topic, but it goes to example...
Do you remember "The Assault Weapons Ban of 2015"? Yeah, everybody in the media said, "The NRA killed that"... and you believed them? Nope, nothing could be further from the truth! What really happened with that piece of legislation was that the whole time it was in debate, the Capitol Switchbard was completely swamped with calls about the legislation, overwhemingly opposed. Individual action, all in concert is what stopped that.
I am not saying don't organize and sign petitons. On the contrary, sign as many as you can, but dont stop there! Be as big an individual PITA to your representatives as you can, without making yourself irrelevant. No, you won't talk to them directly, but engage in cordial, relevant discussion with their call center staff. If you are rude or offensive, you will only hurt your cause, so be calm, present your case cogently, get personal with them. Normally, calls are condensed into a primarily, "yay or nay" report, but if you really engage with them, and impress them, they are more likely to remember your call, and make your case to your representative in their staff meetings. We need to do everything we can to get the facts, the true facts, to those we pay to represent us.
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Good point, WF. And it relates to all of us. Thanks.
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Oh I know that, and I'm sorry if it seemed as tho I took offense to your post. I appreciate all the feedback, input and helpful links in these threads relating to these recent bans on our flavors.I wasn't addressing you personally. Just speaking in general
Funny, I've been a member on this forum for a couple years, and barely posted much of anything. Now I feel I have a reason to post, and I'm hoping my posts regarding these bans are constructive, helpful or anything but annoying. I feel part of the community that is here on this forum, and I feel there is a purpose here greater than what I could have imagined. We are all fighting the same battles. Some of us are just fighting it in different stages. What happens with these Michigan bans, will spread and affect more states and more people. If we band together, and I'm seeing that we are very capable of banding together in a constructive manner, we can stop this before it affects the whole of our country. Hopefully.
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You weren't being annoying at all friend and I'm sure I speak for everybody else too in welcoming your increased participation here
I just wanted to make sure you understood that I wasn't pointing my remarks at you personally is all.
You weren't being annoying at all friend and I'm sure I speak for everybody else too in welcoming your increased participation here
Thanks man! I don't have any friends that vape, and my wife quit vaping last year. This place is full of friends I've never met, and have yet to talk to. I like it.
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So to you in Michigan or others that might be privy, was there any notice or warnings that the ban introduced could indeed happen? Was this out of nowhere? I'm appalled and concerned as a vaper who thought had until the May regs to get my stuff in order. I am SO UPSET for you in michigan and when thinking of all the B and M's going bust.......DAMMIT!!!! This shit is going to spread, who's next?
No warning. Came totally out of the blue. Appalling and disgusting.
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That might be why it will be up for renewal in six months. But I agree it’s appalling.
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wildgypsy70
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Apparently, Illinois is next.
I don't really follow the news generally anymore because there really isn't any news. It's been versions of the same thing for quite a while.
I can say with some confidence though that the citizens of Michigan did not see this coming.
Well said, much better than I could. I was on FB last night and a friend posted the weekends news: "
CDC Says to Stop Vaping as Fifth Person Dies and Severe Lung Illness Cases Hit 450"
I was so pissed that all I could post was "Bullshit", she replied by telling me that is true. So I went on to explain what was actually happening and why those kids were getting sick and supplied her with several links to explain it. She replied"They say only 90 of the 450 were THC users."...So I posted this "Don't believe it, funny how it occurs in clusters,and almost all are minors . I smoked for 45+ years, I have used vape products for the 4.5 years,. my last dr visit she told me have the lungs of a 20 yr old...",.... Haven't heard from her since. People will believe what they want to.
That sucks so horribly bad. I'm right next door to Il in the St Louis region. I really hope this isn't a domino situation for us all. We'll know soon enough.Apparently, Illinois is next.
wildgypsy70
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I hope you’re right....but if Wisconsin succeeds, the dominos will fall.....I’m stockpiling now. I was doing it before, but the timetable has changed. I’m in Virginia and no word here, but it’s a matter of time....and May 11 is not far from now.
You're right, May 11 is not set in stone anymore. It will prob be sooner and different for all of us in different states. I shouldn't have been so gullible as to believe I'd have time to stock up until the "date" which seems to be a forgone conclusion by now. The FDA will not change their mind this time and tack on another year or two as the anti-vaping snowball is reaching the bottom of the mountain with lightning acceleration. It's going to be difficult for folks like myself (single dad, mortgage, etc.) to gather the needed items we thought we had time to accumulate within budget constraints. I know I shouldn't have been so naive to think I'd have time so that's on me. This whole thing is depressing for us vapers.
On another note I love Virginia I've spent many summer vacations there growing up as family lives there. Smith Mountain Lake, beautiful, and Virginia Beach in the years prior. Great place
On another note I love Virginia I've spent many summer vacations there growing up as family lives there. Smith Mountain Lake, beautiful, and Virginia Beach in the years prior. Great place
WarpedFactor
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This all so STUPID.
"CDC Says to Stop Vaping as Fifth Person Dies and Severe Lung Illness Cases Hit 450"
CDC says that in 2018 there were 47,000 opiate overdoses in the US, in 2018. It’s a national tragedy! Something must be done! The federal government is reportedly ready to spend almost $1,000,000,000 (that’s 1 Billion Dollars) for methadone therapy to treat opiate addiction.
That is less than 10% of the number of smokers dying every year. Smokers are willing to pay for their own treatment, and the government wants to take what is arguably, the most successfull treatment plan for smoking cessation away from them.
CDC says that every year, 480,000 die from smoking cigarettes...
Where is THAT outrage?!?
"CDC Says to Stop Vaping as Fifth Person Dies and Severe Lung Illness Cases Hit 450"
CDC says that in 2018 there were 47,000 opiate overdoses in the US, in 2018. It’s a national tragedy! Something must be done! The federal government is reportedly ready to spend almost $1,000,000,000 (that’s 1 Billion Dollars) for methadone therapy to treat opiate addiction.
That is less than 10% of the number of smokers dying every year. Smokers are willing to pay for their own treatment, and the government wants to take what is arguably, the most successfull treatment plan for smoking cessation away from them.
CDC says that every year, 480,000 die from smoking cigarettes...
Where is THAT outrage?!?
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I've often thought a good comedy routine would be a comedian reciting an absurd list of a popular pharmaceutical's side effects. Like explosive diarrhea, growing another head, or waking up 200 years in the future. Unfortunately, many modern medicines do indeed produce bizarre side effects.
I will back you up with this. We actually saw it happen with CASAA stepping in as the advocate for customers to the vaping industry. What "regulation" there has been involved so far, has been from CASAA, volunteers who as customers started drives to get childproof caps, removal of some chemicals. "Customers won't buy your juice if X is left in and we'll tell them. We also want childproof caps. Our customers are responsible parents." That gist come from them and the vaping industry took note, started following suit and giving into customer desires. If they didn't they got out of business, one way or another.
Because spectacular falsehood is much easier to disprove than partial truths.
The very first leading sentence is an easily demonstrable falsehood. E-Cigarettes are not a tobacco product. Right off the bat the state shows that it doesn't even understand the most fundamental aspects of vaping. That's useful in attempting to convince citizens that these people are not credible.
Totally agree.
They have no experts on their panel that actually know anything about vaping, the differences between vaping nicotine, thc or cbd, nor do they understand the differences in how each of those are made, nor do they know anything about the different devices that are used or what they might be used for. Because of this, it's all lumped together as an electronic tobacco product, or "vaping " to keep it as simple as possible for not only themselves, but the troves of uneducated voters and concerned citizens, otherwise known as "sheeple".
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All of the above...
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Even if you see this first line as false in respects to how you define a thing, you're still correct in point this out as a good thing. No, I'm not attempting to be argumentative in stating you define a thing differently than others. It is merely statement of fact, you do, they do.
For example what you call a dresser, a free standing cabinet with drawers for clothing. Me and my wife at one time called a bed and used it to have some passionate intercourse on top of it. Does mean we were wrong in that instant to define bed as the top of a dresser? No, not really. If anything it meant we were both rather aroused and did not care where we had sex, so long as we did what in the vernacular is called some serious bumping of uglies.
How people define things, ideas, places is subjective factually stated. There is no need to argue over it except in a few rare cases. Murder will always be murder, rape is always rape, spades are always spades. In those cases there is no need to argue either as they are self-evident, anyone can see the spade for what exists as being. No one has to define it.
Now, to how you are correct point this out as a good thing and my quote of "What does the law say about ecigarettes?" You are correct it is a good thing first to point out good information. Second you are correct because the information shows me that some who are legislating, regulating vaping in authoritative positions actually "get it".
How is that evident from the information? Well Michagan Public Act 18 of 2019;
"Defines e-cigarettes, alternative nicotine products, vapor products, and other emerging tobacco products separately from tobacco products;"
Look at that they clearly and emphatically state they define vapor products separately from tobacco products. Even further so, they leave the gap open for "other emerging tobacco products", that will be still be defined as separate from tobacco products.
Yes it also seems they are highlighting that adults should act as adults, and avoid allowing minors to have vaping products. That to me seems perfectly reasonable, sane, legitimate. We normally do not allow minors to go happily play with thermite, C4, symtex, dynamite, flash bang grenades, heavy artillery either and that seems to work out well. Nor are minors supposed to be allowed to use firearms unsupervised and if that is the case it usually does well too.
All in, I think you are correct, this is a good thing.
If you live there handily enough. Go right now, volunteer as an expert. Educate them, create material to disseminate so others can be educated. Instead of bitching they are not educated, do something about it.
How would it be if I said to you "you must defend yourself" knowing there was a mob around the corner coming for you, and then did not offer to teach you how to defend yourself or arm you? I bet that would make me look totally shitty, huh? See the way I see, now?
You use this stuff. When we face ignorance the onus (obligation,chore) falls on us to teach, to offer explanation because we use the products. When you see a brother starving but know how to plant and grow food, and do not share that knowledge with a starving brother, how can you say you are not committing murder?
If you know how to fish to eat and see the same or a different starving sister, how is it not murder to not teach them how to fish? And forget them needing to ask you to be taught. No, they will never ask. Their pride and self respect will not allow for that, they rather steal if need be. You teach them or start to teach them. Wait and let them tell you it is alright, then go on your way.
And yes, there are ways sisters can fish without using gross, yucky worms as bait. They can use nets, baskets, spears. So yes sisters can be taught as well as brothers. Even children and the elders can be taught. There is always a way to adapt, to solve a problem. Always a way to help.
Instead of lobbing off a complaint about a problem, fix it if you can. Do not expect even a thank you. Do it, move on your way. Find another problem, try fixing it, if others are having problems, pitch in and help fixing it. This is how we keep living, how we unite, how we thrive, how we find love and keep hope, how we honor what we think of as Providence or Divinity. We are all brothers and sisters from one family, the human family.
Read what I quoted from the article. Did you read the same words I read? Did it seem to you the people in Michigan are trying to put vaping with tobacco or keep it apart? Keeping things apart is what the word separate means to most people. Some encyclopedias and dictionaries seem to think that is what is meant by it too.
I apologize if it seems I am talking down to you. That is not my intention. I honor you with respect, I sincerely do. In respect I see others as equals. This means to me that others can read like I read, can understand like I understand, can see like I see.
Sometimes though through no fault of our own the universe can get tricky on us. This is an absurdity of life, not worth tears or mean words. Sometimes we need to help each other along. I know I am grateful for all the help I get. I might have ended up dead without help. If we all remember being grateful we can find a happy feeling real soon.
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I hate this. Greedy companies with money shouldn't be allowed to influence the law and the way I live. I have a limited stash of diy but haven't tried mixing anything yet. Once this craziness spreads to all the states and I use up my stash I'll be stuck vaping 0nic or smoking again. Just had to get a new car and refrigerator so I can't stash any more nic than the bottle I already have. Have I said how much I hate this?
Whatever happened to America and where was I when it happened?
Whatever happened to America and where was I when it happened?
I'm not sure I'm followingEven if you see this first line as false in respects to how you define a thing, you're still correct in point this out as a good thing. No, I'm not attempting to be argumentative in stating you define a thing differently than others. It is merely statement of fact, you do, they do.
For example what you call a dresser, a free standing cabinet with drawers for clothing. Me and my wife at one time called a bed and used it to have some passionate intercourse on top of it. Does mean we were wrong in that instant to define bed as the top of a dresser? No, not really. If anything it meant we were both rather aroused and did not care where we had sex, so long as we did what in the vernacular is called some serious bumping of uglies.
How people define things, ideas, places is subjective factually stated. There is no need to argue over it except in a few rare cases. Murder will always be murder, rape is always rape, spades are always spades. In those cases there is no need to argue either as they are self-evident, anyone can see the spade for what exists as being. No one has to define it.
Now, to how you are correct point this out as a good thing and my quote of "What does the law say about ecigarettes?" You are correct it is a good thing first to point out good information. Second you are correct because the information shows me that some who are legislating, regulating vaping in authoritative positions actually "get it".
How is that evident from the information? Well Michagan Public Act 18 of 2019;
"Defines e-cigarettes, alternative nicotine products, vapor products, and other emerging tobacco products separately from tobacco products;"
Look at that they clearly and emphatically state they define vapor products separately from tobacco products. Even further so, they leave the gap open for "other emerging tobacco products", that will be still be defined as separate from tobacco products.
Yes it also seems they are highlighting that adults should act as adults, and avoid allowing minors to have vaping products. That to me seems perfectly reasonable, sane, legitimate. We normally do not allow minors to go happily play with thermite, C4, symtex, dynamite, flash bang grenades, heavy artillery either and that seems to work out well. Nor are minors supposed to be allowed to use firearms unsupervised and if that is the case it usually does well too.
All in, I think you are correct, this is a good thing.
My point is that they are defining and classifying as a "tobacco product," one which in fact contains no tobacco. (almost always)
This is so easily demonstrated that a child could do it. That's what I see as a good thing. Not that it's a game changer by itself, but it is a good thing. The credibility of a person or institution contending that grass is purple is quite easily called into a question.
I agree mostly. But there are always those of us who call it a fuckin' shovel...
