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Substituting and adjusting for strength levels across brands

marter

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I'm really new at this but enjoying what I've mixed so far. Not being familiar with the different flavoring makers and their typical strength levels, are there any general guidelines for substituting across different brands? I realize the flavor and the result will be different, but as an example when I come across a recipe for something that calls for Bavarian Cream using Flavor West but I have TFA, do I use more or less?

Beyond the specific example, any guidance for this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 

Huckleberried

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This is the part where testing single flavors can be helpful, yet super annoying, LOL. If that's a route you don't want to take, you can start low, too. IMO, FW takes more flavoring than TFA, sometimes by twice as much, or more, even. Also depends on your taste buds. If you're a super taster, start really low with the brand you have, til you get the desired flavor.

Yeah. All for science.
 

marter

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This is the part where testing single flavors can be helpful, yet super annoying, LOL. If that's a route you don't want to take, you can start low, too. IMO, FW takes more flavoring than TFA, sometimes by twice as much, or more, even. Also depends on your taste buds. If you're a super taster, start really low with the brand you have, til you get the desired flavor.

Yeah. All for science.
Thanks @Huckleberried. I'm too lazy to SFT all my flavors (over 100 so far). I've done a few but it's time consuming. Maybe this winter when the snow flies.

I thought there may be some general rules of thumb, like I think I've read that FA is really strong compared to others. Just looking for the easier softer way. LOL.

Thanks
 

Heartsdelight

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You can use the percentage guidelines for a specific flavor on eliquidrecipes.com. They have a database. I’ve also heard Reddit has one but I’m not really a Reddit user.

It lists the % to use on each flavor based on the recipes posted on ELR.
 

Huckleberried

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Thanks @Huckleberried. I'm too lazy to SFT all my flavors (over 100 so far). I've done a few but it's time consuming. Maybe this winter when the snow flies.

I thought there may be some general rules of thumb, like I think I've read that FA is really strong compared to others. Just looking for the easier softer way. LOL.

Thanks
That sounds familiar :)

Yes, I find FA stronger than FW, TFA and Caps. Can't really give you any suggestions on Wonder or Vape Train. I have some of those, but haven't used them enough to know much. I've seen that Flavorah is also a super concentrate, but that one is also out of my wheelhouse.

I tell ya what taught me alot about flavorings, and how they play together, was mixing other people's recipes. Learned a lot that way, really.
 

Heartsdelight

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That sounds familiar :)

Yes, I find FA stronger than FW, TFA and Caps. Can't really give you any suggestions on Wonder or Vape Train. I have some of those, but haven't used them enough to know much. I've seen that Flavorah is also a super concentrate, but that one is also out of my wheelhouse.

I tell ya what taught me alot about flavorings, and how they play together, was mixing other people's recipes. Learned a lot that way, really.
Ditto!
 

marter

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You can use the percentage guidelines for a specific flavor on eliquidrecipes.com. They have a database. I’ve also heard Reddit has one but I’m not really a Reddit user.

It lists the % to use on each flavor based on the recipes posted on ELR.
So if this what you mean?
upload_2019-10-16_12-1-42.png


upload_2019-10-16_12-2-15.png

So that's telling me that FW is stronger than TFA by around 0.5%? Is that how you would use this?

Thanks
 

nadalama

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This is an area where it's really unwise to make too many rules, because the first thing you start running into is the exceptions to those rules.

FW Wintergreen blows TFA's out of the water, strength wise, but TFA's has a better flavor (to me)
FW Marshmallow is the weakest of any of the marshmallows I've used (DIYFS and FA)
I have yet to find a spot where Flv's Cinnamon Crunch is too strong, yet more than 2% of TFA Cinnamon Red Hots would send me howling.

In order of strength, for the brands I've tried, the rough rule, strongest to weakest, is probably: Flv, Inw, FA, WF, Caps/MB/LB, TFA, FW

Trial and error has been the only way I've worked this question out. To add to the quandary, everyone's taste buds are different. I usually mix between 15 and 20 percent, and think I'm one of the few here at VU who mix that heavy, but even for me there are a few recipes that are fine at 8 or 10 percent.

Your equipment and vaping style will make a difference, too.

Over time you'll get a rough idea of where your mixes end up, for the most part. Say it's around 12%. You see a HIC's recipe that totals 7.5%. In that case, I'd mix the 7.5% with a little room left in the bottle (maybe mix 25ml instead of 30). Give it a few days, depending on what sort of recipe it is, and then taste it. If it tastes wimpy, use the ELR calculator to figure out the difference between 7.5% and, say 9%. If it tastes REALLY wimpy, go to 10%. Add the extra flavors and try again. Keep working it like that until it gets where you want it. If you know that 12% is where you're (mostly) happy, then at 12% you can see where you are with a particular recipe, whether you want to keep working with it or not.

When you let ELR change the percentage on a recipe that's already balanced, unless you get up into the stratosphere, the recipe will stay balanced. Just tweak it until the flavor level is good for you.

I wouldn't go crazy and try to convert a 7.5% recipe to a 25% recipe. No telling what that would taste like, and you'd probably just be wasting your supplies. It is true with a lot of flavors that, past a certain point, they go mute or the flavor changes entirely, and you pick up chemical and other notes you wouldn't taste at lower levels.

ETA: Added @wildgypsy70 's additions Inw, WF, MB, LB to the strongest-to-weakest list. Thanks ladybug!
 
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marter

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This is an area where it's really unwise to make too many rules, because the first thing you start running into is the exceptions to those rules.

FW Wintergreen blows TFA's out of the water, strength wise, but TFA's has a better flavor (to me)
FW Marshmallow is the weakest of any of the marshmallows I've used (DIYFS and FA)
I have yet to find a spot where Flv's Cinnamon Crunch is too strong, yet more than 2% of TFA Cinnamon Red Hots would send me howling.

In order of strength, for the brands I've tried, the rough rule, strongest to weakest, is probably: Flv, FA, Caps, TFA, FW

Trial and error has been the only way I've worked this question out. To add to the quandary, everyone's taste buds are different. I usually mix between 15 and 20 percent, and think I'm one of the few here at VU who mixes that heavy, but even for me there are a few recipes that are fine at 8 or 10 percent.

Your equipment and vaping style will make a difference, too.

Over time you'll get a rough idea of where your mixes end up, for the most part. Say it's around 12%. You see a HIC's recipe that totals 7.5%. In that case, I'd mix the 7.5% with a little room left in the bottle (maybe mix 25ml instead of 30). Give it a few days, depending on what sort of recipe it is, and then taste it. If it tastes wimpy, use the ELR calculator to figure out the difference between 7.5% and, say 9%. If it tastes REALLY wimpy, go to 10%. Add the extra flavors and try again. Keep working it like that until it gets where you want it. If you know that 12% is where you're (mostly) happy, then at 12% you can see where you are with a particular recipe, whether you want to keep working with it or not.

When you let ELR change the percentage on a recipe that's already balanced, unless you get up into the stratosphere, the recipe will stay balanced. Just tweak it until the flavor level is good for you.

I wouldn't go crazy and try to convert a 7.5% recipe to a 25% recipe. No telling what that would taste like, and you'd probably just be wasting your supplies. It is true with a lot of flavors that, past a certain point, they go mute or the flavor changes entirely, and you pick up chemical and other notes you wouldn't taste at lower levels.
Excellent info and great advice, @nadalama , that's the experience I'm looking for and able to leverage here on VU. So many great mixers here.

So when you talked about over flavor percentage and the need to adjust it, that turned on a light bulb for me. I've been looking at it as though I either like a recipe or not, but since you mentioned that I looked at ELR and there's an option in the Edit menu to adjust overall flavor percentage. Ding Ding.

Thanks. So much to learn. I'm really glad I started DIY.
 

wildgypsy70

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Everything above is so true! The only thing I could add is squeeze INW between FLV and FA and WF is gonna be between FA and Caps. Molinberry is probably equal to Caps. Liquid Barn is also probably equal to Caps.

There is a lot to learn, but it’s soooo worth it!
 

wildgypsy70

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This is an area where it's really unwise to make too many rules, because the first thing you start running into is the exceptions to those rules.

FW Wintergreen blows TFA's out of the water, strength wise, but TFA's has a better flavor (to me)
FW Marshmallow is the weakest of any of the marshmallows I've used (DIYFS and FA)
I have yet to find a spot where Flv's Cinnamon Crunch is too strong, yet more than 2% of TFA Cinnamon Red Hots would send me howling.

In order of strength, for the brands I've tried, the rough rule, strongest to weakest, is probably: Flv, Inw, FA, WF, Caps/MB/LB, TFA, FW

Trial and error has been the only way I've worked this question out. To add to the quandary, everyone's taste buds are different. I usually mix between 15 and 20 percent, and think I'm one of the few here at VU who mixes that heavy, but even for me there are a few recipes that are fine at 8 or 10 percent.

Your equipment and vaping style will make a difference, too.

Over time you'll get a rough idea of where your mixes end up, for the most part. Say it's around 12%. You see a HIC's recipe that totals 7.5%. In that case, I'd mix the 7.5% with a little room left in the bottle (maybe mix 25ml instead of 30). Give it a few days, depending on what sort of recipe it is, and then taste it. If it tastes wimpy, use the ELR calculator to figure out the difference between 7.5% and, say 9%. If it tastes REALLY wimpy, go to 10%. Add the extra flavors and try again. Keep working it like that until it gets where you want it. If you know that 12% is where you're (mostly) happy, then at 12% you can see where you are with a particular recipe, whether you want to keep working with it or not.

When you let ELR change the percentage on a recipe that's already balanced, unless you get up into the stratosphere, the recipe will stay balanced. Just tweak it until the flavor level is good for you.

I wouldn't go crazy and try to convert a 7.5% recipe to a 25% recipe. No telling what that would taste like, and you'd probably just be wasting your supplies. It is true with a lot of flavors that, past a certain point, they go mute or the flavor changes entirely, and you pick up chemical and other notes you wouldn't taste at lower levels.

ETA: Added @wildgypsy70 's additions Inw, WF, MB, LB to the strongest-to-weakest list. Thanks ladybug!
:blowkiss:
 

lirruping

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Just want to second Huckleberried and Heartsdelight's note about mixing other people's recipes when you're starting out. It's much more fun than single flavor testing (by a long shot!). Use recipes by experienced mixers instead of randomly picking mixes that sound good off of e-liquidrecipes.com or something. If you aren't sure whose to look at, definitely ask! Lots of people can point you in the right direction. I started out mixing mostly HeadinClouds' recipes from here on VU, as well as some reddit mixers.

You can also check out the Bullcityflavors.com site for some simple recipes to begin with in their community recipe section.

Even if you don't mix every recipe you read, there is a lot to be gained from just noting down or studying recipes from reputable mixers that look appetizing to you. Over time, the relative percentages/ brand names will stick in your head.
Seriously, I think I have spent at least twice as much time reading recipes and about flavors as I have mixing over the years!
 

marter

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Just want to second Huckleberried and Heartsdelight's note about mixing other people's recipes when you're starting out. It's much more fun than single flavor testing (by a long shot!). Use recipes by experienced mixers instead of randomly picking mixes that sound good off of e-liquidrecipes.com or something. If you aren't sure whose to look at, definitely ask! Lots of people can point you in the right direction. I started out mixing mostly HeadinClouds' recipes from here on VU, as well as some reddit mixers.

You can also check out the Bullcityflavors.com site for some simple recipes to begin with in their community recipe section.

Even if you don't mix every recipe you read, there is a lot to be gained from just noting down or studying recipes from reputable mixers that look appetizing to you. Over time, the relative percentages/ brand names will stick in your head.
Seriously, I think I have spent at least twice as much time reading recipes and about flavors as I have mixing over the years!
Thanks for the reply and totally understand the point. I'm reading and using other peoples recipes before I reinvent my own wheel. My question was around substituting flavors, where someone may have used one brand of vanilla cream but I don't have that brand, so would want to substitute the brand I have, and wondering if I should go up in percentage or down based on that brand change. Not sure I'm explaining that very well.
 

lirruping

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Thanks for the reply and totally understand the point. I'm reading and using other peoples recipes before I reinvent my own wheel. My question was around substituting flavors, where someone may have used one brand of vanilla cream but I don't have that brand, so would want to substitute the brand I have, and wondering if I should go up in percentage or down based on that brand change. Not sure I'm explaining that very well.

You explained it great. As others have indicated, it really depends on the flavor. That's such an unsatisfying answer, I know! There are sort of guidelines, already described above--Inawera, FlavourArt, Flavorah and some of called "super concentrates", by various manufacturers are in general stronger than The Flavor Apprentice, Flavor West and Capella. (And sometimes A LOT stronger, so it pays to research every flavor at least a little before adding it to a mix, even if it's at 0.5%.) But within those stronger brands, there is a lot of variation flavor to flavor.

I've learned a lot from watching a youtube show called "Noted". Each episode has mixers reviewing a certain type of flavor across all brands. The issue of substitution isn't usually discussed directly, but you can glean a lot of valuable information about relative strengths, comparisons, subjective descriptions and so on. You can find episodes by searching: "Noted: " It's a subsection of DIYorDIE, another possibly helpful youtube channel.
 
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Jinx'd

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I'm reading and using other peoples recipes before I reinvent my own wheel.

My question was around substituting flavors, where someone may have used one brand of vanilla cream but I don't have that brand, so would want to substitute the brand I have, and wondering if I should go up in percentage or down based on that brand change.

Not sure I'm explaining that very well.

thats what i do. and a few times i mix 2 juices together. i started using RY4 when i drink, it was good. one night i found i didn't have enough. so i took some Blueberry Smoothie WF and mixed it in. now, this is what i use while drinking.

this is one of those things that 100 people can say "do this". you do and don't like it. really, you have to just try stuff and see if you like it. just make small batches.
then make adjustments, or not. i have found just adding some SS makes a big difference.

i knew exactly what you asked.
 

marter

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You explained it great. As others have indicated, it really depends on the flavor. That's such an unsatisfying answer, I know! There are sort of guidelines, already described above--Inawera, FlavourArt, Flavorah and some of called "super concentrates", by various manufacturers are in general stronger than The Flavor Apprentice, Flavor West and Capella. (And sometimes A LOT stronger, so it pays to research every flavor at least a little before adding it to a mix, even if it's at 0.5%.) But within those stronger brands, there is a lot of variation flavor to flavor.

I've learned a lot from watching a youtube show called "Noted". Each episode has mixers reviewing a certain type of flavor across all brands. The issue of substitution isn't usually discussed directly, but you can glean a lot of valuable information about relative strengths, comparisons, subjective descriptions and so on. You can find episodes by searching: "Noted: " It's a subsection of DIYorDIE, another possibly helpful youtube channel.
thats what i do. and a few times i mix 2 juices together. i started using RY4 when i drink, it was good. one night i found i didn't have enough. so i took some Blueberry Smoothie WF and mixed it in. now, this is what i use while drinking.

this is one of those things that 100 people can say "do this". you do and don't like it. really, you have to just try stuff and see if you like it. just make small batches.
then make adjustments, or not. i have found just adding some SS makes a big difference.

i knew exactly what you asked.
Thanks for the replies, and I get what you're saying. I want this to be a science, and it's an art.

I've been watching a lot of DIYorDie's videos; I'll look at the Noted episodes. Thanks for the tip. And most importantly, I'll keep reading here. Great resource. Thanks again.
 

Smoky Blue

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I rarely if ever mix anyone else's recipes.
I do do a lot of solos and let my thinking take me places to where I want to taste what and when.
Guess I am the odd ball here.. but I wont have it any other way.. ;)
 

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