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Temperature Control? Temperature Protection? They are both WRONG!

VapeJohn

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Quick and short, TC and TP is NOT what we should be calling it. It's temperature limitation... Thoughts?
 

M5amhan

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if you limit the temp you are controlling it, so both work there. temperature protection is typically viewed (in this industry at least) as protecting the chip itself from overheating.
 

BoomStick

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Who cares what you call it when evolv can't make it work right or give it a proper power limit?

Sorry for the asshole response, but some of these companies are seriously dropping the ball. Temperature limiting seems accurate as that's what it does.
 
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BoomStick

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if you limit the temp you are controlling it, so both work there.
In my mind controlling it means not too high or too low. The temp control chips only restrict the max temp it can reach. That's not controlling it, that's limiting it. Controlling it would mean it hits the target temp when you hit the button. That doesn't happen. Just how I see it.
 

M5amhan

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In my mind controlling it means not too high or too low. The temp control chips only restrict the max temp it can reach. That's not controlling it, that's limiting it. Controlling it would mean it hits the target temp when you hit the button. That doesn't happen. Just how I see it.
agreed but limiting is still controlling to a degree. just means there is farther to go in the temp control idea, not that what we are calling it is inaccurate
 

Jaaxx

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If temperature limiting isn't the same as temperature controlled I would like to hear an example of what is controlled. Oven- nope. HVAC- nope. Thermostat in the car - nope. Refrigerator - nope.
 

M5amhan

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If temperature limiting isn't the same as temperature controlled I would like to hear an example of what is controlled. Oven- nope. HVAC- nope. Thermostat in the car - nope. Refrigerator - nope.
yea lol but what hes saying is that if your watts wont get your coil up to temp, there is no boost to get it there so it just says at however hot it can get at the wattage setting. so thats where i would agree that we have farther to go, at that point it wouldnt be about wattage at all only temperature. also id like to see some tests at how accurate these temperature gauges are with the various temp controlled chips that are out now using different builds, conditions, etc.
 

Jaaxx

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Well the whole thing is kind of a crapshoot anyway considering that the chip measures the temp by judging the resistance change in the wire as it heats up. This really requires extreme precision. That's why you must use Ni200 wire. It's only calibrated for that specific wire. I imagine that Kanthal's resistance change vs temp is too tiny for these chips to measure.

That being said, there is potential boost. Up to 40 watts, which exceeds what a mech could provide at nominal voltages and at middling resistances that the DNA40 requires. If you want to "temp control" a .15 build you are SOL. 1.3 is easily doable, but the accuracy just isn't there IMHO which is why so many are having problems. True temp control will come when we have some way to directly measure the coil surface temp.
 

M5amhan

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Well the whole thing is kind of a crapshoot anyway considering that the chip measures the temp by judging the resistance change in the wire as it heats up. This really requires extreme precision. That's why you must use Ni200 wire. It's only calibrated for that specific wire. I imagine that Kanthal's resistance change vs temp is too tiny for these chips to measure.

That being said, there is potential boost. Up to 40 watts, which exceeds what a mech could provide at nominal voltages and at middling resistances that the DNA40 requires. If you want to "temp control" a .15 build you are SOL. 1.3 is easily doable, but the accuracy just isn't there IMHO which is why so many are having problems. True temp control will come when we have some way to directly measure the coil surface temp.
the theory behind it is that these algorithms are already well documented, very precise, and accepted and thats where the idea to use it in ecigs came from. so the precision is already built into the algorithm, its just that i want to know how accurate it is in application with airflow cooling the coil at varying degrees, different amounts of wick and juice, etc. there is just an ass load of testing to prove the accuracy in application that im not so sure evolv did anymore. testing that requires real equipment too so its not like i could do this stuff at home
 

Jaaxx

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The algorithms can be spot on, but the device has to have the precision to measure what is going on. Garbage in, garbage out. My $200 Fluke multimeter cannot differentiate between a 1.2 ohm and a 1.25 ohm coil. Do you really think a $60-70 chip can measure it? I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, I'm just saying that it's not going to work well until the accuracy of the device itself can be improved. I figure you need to be accurate to at least 3 decimal places with a very high sample rate to accurately control a coils temp and still be able to use whatever wire you like.
 

Tripster

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FWIW...

"Introducing the latest evolution of the Vapor Shark
rDNA; now with the Evolv 40D board under the hood!
The First board to measure and limit temperature."
 

Jaaxx

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FWIW...

"Introducing the latest evolution of the Vapor Shark
rDNA; now with the Evolv 40D board under the hood!
The First board to measure and limit temperature."

Nice try, but if it doesn't have a dedicated temperature sensor in the atty it can't measure anything. It can only attempt to extrapolate the coil temp by sensing the resistance change in the wire as it heats up. Limit it can though, LOL.
 

Tripster

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Nice try, but if it doesn't have a dedicated temperature sensor in the atty it can't measure anything. It can only attempt to extrapolate the coil temp by sensing the resistance change in the wire as it heats up. Limit it can though, LOL.

Um, that is from VaporSharks site..."Nice try, but if it doesn't have a dedicated temperature sensor in the atty it can't measure anything."...I ain't trying anything here, just copied and pasted what it states.

FWIW stands for For What It's Worth...

I digress...
 

Jaaxx

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to sound confrontational. :oops:

Just irritated with Evolve's claims about this tech. I think it's a great first step, but IMHO they released it into the wild before the device they sell could actually do what they say it can.
 

Tripster

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to sound confrontational. :oops:

Just irritated with Evolve's claims about this tech. I think it's a great first step, but IMHO they released it into the wild before the device they sell could actually do what they say it can.

I am one of the Vapers out there that despises Evolv entirely for my own reasoning which I won't get into online...

I absolutely love the design and concept behind the VaporShark, just despise everything Evolv...not knocking VS at all...I'd buy a VS if and only they walkaway from doing their business partnership with Evolv while lowering their prices to a reasonable and affordable amount and incorporating legitimately lower cost non-Evolv boards...no fucks given if they're made in China and or the Death Star.

I digress...
 

M5amhan

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The algorithms can be spot on, but the device has to have the precision to measure what is going on. Garbage in, garbage out. My $200 Fluke multimeter cannot differentiate between a 1.2 ohm and a 1.25 ohm coil. Do you really think a $60-70 chip can measure it? I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, I'm just saying that it's not going to work well until the accuracy of the device itself can be improved. I figure you need to be accurate to at least 3 decimal places with a very high sample rate to accurately control a coils temp and still be able to use whatever wire you like.
i hear you, i misunderstood. thought you meant the formula has to be precise. yea i would agree with you, to be as accurate and efficient as possible it should be reading 3 decimal places dead on. and the attys we use need to have the most solid connections possible which is already the case.

still though, even at that point i would want to see thermal tests in real world applications, across many different scenarios for proof the theory even works for what we are doing. not doubting it, just want to see more
 

Tripster

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For me...I like this concept vs the concept of what Evolv is failing at...

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Yeah, 158°F is rather high IMHO for a device to get but at least Eleaf is addressing this concern openly. I could careless about limiting and or controlling the temp of a coil, that to me just sounds so gimmicky and downright silly.
 

Jaaxx

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I dunno. I like the idea of temp control. A dry hit is nothing more than a coil getting too hot because there is not enough liquid around it to keep it cool. Also there is a line between vaporizing and combustion. Granted we usually are smart enough to not get into the combustion range, but accidents happen, then we choke and then we cry. I would like to see some better power regulation but I'm afraid Evolve's TC is not gonna cut it as it is currently implemented. Maybe the clones will get it right at some point?
 

M5amhan

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my hopes arent high for the clones. maybe they fix the glitches but i bet the power regulation still sucks, i would trust evolvs chips over theirs even with the glitches. unless i see otherwise of course
 

Mike H.

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Ive always found adjusting wattage is my favorite temperature control...if its too hot i turn it down..not enough i turn it up.

I dont see why the technology is such a craze....maybe just a way to market higher prices....soon we will be able to change channels on our tv's for just 50 dollars more.
 

Giraut

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Nice try, but if it doesn't have a dedicated temperature sensor in the atty it can't measure anything. It can only attempt to extrapolate the coil temp by sensing the resistance change in the wire as it heats up. Limit it can though, LOL.

There is a sensor: it's the wire itself. In fact, it's the best possible sensor, since it measures its own temperature. As for the mod, it doesn't "attempt to extrapolate" the temperature, it *measures* it, and rather accurately too.
 

Giraut

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Ive always found adjusting wattage is my favorite temperature control...if its too hot i turn it down..not enough i turn it up.
I dont see why the technology is such a craze....

VW is your favorite temperature control because it's the only one you know: you don't see why the technology is such a craze because *you haven't tried it* - like the majority of people who have an opinion on the subject on this here board, sadly.
 

Mike H.

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VW is your favorite temperature control because it's the only one you know: you don't see why the technology is such a craze because *you haven't tried it* - like the majority of people who have an opinion on the subject on this here board, sadly.
Ive never tried alot of things i have opinions on but fair enough.

So as you've tried one...explain how its better than just finding a wattage that works for ones particular set up?

Is it that you want to set your device to 50 watts of power(whatever temp that gives off) but it regulates back down to less watts or voltage (the temp that works)so you dont burn up your coil or get dry hits?

Im just trying to understand what makes it so much better and justifies the added cost.
 

Giraut

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Ive never tried alot of things i have opinions on but fair enough.

So as you've tried one...explain how its better than just finding a wattage that works for ones particular set up?

Is it that you want to set your device to 50 watts of power(whatever temp that gives off) but it regulates back down to less watts or voltage (the temp that works)so you dont burn up your coil or get dry hits?

Im just trying to understand what makes it so much better and justifies the added cost.

Okay, here's the best analogy I can come up with: a VW device is lke a car without cruise control, while a temp control device is like a car with cruise control. Sure you can drive 100 miles on the freeway and maintain your speed manually, but once you've tried CC, you realize it's much more relaxing, and better at maintaining your set speed than you are. Only people who've never tried cruise control think maintaining your speed by hand is equivalent.

Regarding temperature control: if you don't have it, if your overheat your juice, you think you'll notice because of the unmistakable taste of acrolein in the vapor. Only there are two problems with this:

- When you taste acrolein, it's already too late: the atomizer has cooked your juice and you've inhaled the stuff - which is toxic.

- Even if you can't taste acrolein, it doesn't mean your atomizer hasn't produced any. It just means you can't taste it. Your atomizer may be producing just a little of it (because you're not overheating the juice very much), but the flavoring in the juice masks the taste, or you mistake the sting for throat hit. Me, I *know* this happens. If you want all the details of how I know this, read this post.

With temperature control, it's easy: the mod itself stops the juice from overheating. And let me tell you, the first thing you notice when you get your first temp control mod is how early it hits TP - well before you yourself can detect anything wrong in the vapor.

I'm a big fan of temperature control because it's a fantastic *health* tool, not just a convenience. Sure it's nice to never get dry hits, and it's nice to never have to wonder if you have to recharge your atty before vaping, but the real added value is that it produces vapor that's guaranteed to be acrolein-free.
 
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Mike H.

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Okay, here's the best analogy I can come up with: a VW device is lke a car without cruise control, while a temp control device is like a car with cruise control. Sure you can drive 100 miles on the freeway and maintain your speed manually, but once you've tried CC, you realize it's much more relaxing, and better at maintaining your set speed than you are. Only people who've never tried cruise control think maintaining your speed by hand is equivalent.

Regarding temperature control: if you don't have it, if your overheat your juice, you think you'll notice because of the unmistakable taste of acrolein in the vapor. Only there are two problems with this:

- When you taste acrolein, it's already too late: the atomizer has cooked your juice and you've inhaled the stuff - which is toxic.

- Even if you can't taste acrolein, it doesn't mean your atomizer hasn't produced any. It just means you can't taste it. Your atomizer may be producing just a little of it (because you're not overheating the juice very much), but the flavoring in the juice masks the taste, or you mistake the sting for throat hit. Me, I *know* this happens. If you want all the details of how I know this, read this post.

With temperature control, it's easy: the mod itself stops the juice from overheating. And let me tell you, the first thing you notice when you get your first temp control mod is how early it hits TP - well before you yourself can detect anything wrong in the vapor.

I'm a big fan of temperature control because it's a fantastic *health* tool, not just a convenience. Sure it's nice to never get dry hits, and it's nice to never have to wonder if you have to recharge your atty before vaping, but the real added value is that it produces vapor that's guaranteed to be acrolein-free.

With mention of "burning the juice",..what temperature is considered hot enough to cause this?
 

Giraut

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With mention of "burning the juice",..what temperature is considered hot enough to cause this?

Glycerin (VG) degrades into acrolein at around 520 degrees. If you set your temperature below that (or, say, 20 degrees below that for added safety) in your temp control mod, you're guaranteed to be safe on that front - unless your build is messed up and you have a hot spot.

PG doesn't degrade into anything harmful. It simply vaporizes at 380 degrees. No problem there.

As for the flavorings... who knows. That's why I tend to vape unflavored juice whenever I can.
 

BoomStick

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An accurate, reliable, affordable and high power capable tc chip would be something I would seriously consider. I would like to be able to dial in a number and know that every time i hit the button my coils will hit that temp whether I'm running a thin wire single coil or multiple thick wire coils. Seems that would be one step better than wattage control. I don't think tc is going away. I think it will only improve.
 

VapeJohn

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to sound confrontational. :oops:

Just irritated with Evolve's claims about this tech. I think it's a great first step, but IMHO they released it into the wild before the device they sell could actually do what they say it can.
Mind you this board is revision 4 or 5 now. I can't keep up
 

VapeJohn

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A few things...

http://www.epa.gov/airtoxics/hlthef/acrolein.html Read the exposure limits and duration for even accute effects...

Temp Limitation/Control/Protection can be done with kanthal as stated VIA pbusardo in his recent video

Why did evolv choose to use nickel? Ponder this everyone....
 

Jaaxx

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Why did evolv choose to use nickel? Ponder this everyone....

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the temperature coefficient (ie the change in resistance vs temperature) of kanthal would be too small to be measured accurately by the chip.
 

VapeJohn

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I don't know for sure, but I suspect the temperature coefficient (ie the change in resistance vs temperature) of kanthal would be too small to be measured accurately by the chip.
Pbusardo in the video states kanthal has such little change in resistance as it heats. So why not just make it an easier calculation with roughly %5 fluxuation? I'll admit some of this stuff is over my head but it doesn't make sense the more I look into it. It just seems gimmicky as hell the way it's being presented when there are others ways to accomplish such things. I think YiHi are on point with using joules as a measurement for heat calculations and am anticipating it's release. It could very well be programed for kanthal too I believe
 
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Jaaxx

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If the change in resistance is very small then the chip is going to go nuts constantly adjusting the voltage to keep a "constant" temperature. Plus you have to throw in the reaction time of the coil which would vary greatly from one gauge to the next. It just gets incredibly complicated quickly and is likely the reason Evolv calibrated it for one wire type in a very specific resistance range.

Like I said before it's a good idea, but I just can't see it being ready to goto market yet. To really do it right would take a much more expensive and complicated chip than a DNA40. Think along the lines of a menu that would allow you to input the wire type, gauge, etc coupled with a much more powerful processor that would have a very, very high sample rate with extreme accuracy. Would also need to some very good firmware which could do some predictive modeling to make up for the inherent lag in on the fly adjustments.
 

Giraut

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[...]Temp Limitation/Control/Protection can be done with kanthal as stated VIA pbusardo in his recent video

Credit where credit's due: that's a really well researched, intelligent and informative Busardo video. He's a little confused over the watt setting in temperature control mode (which shouldn't really exist at all), but otherwise he's got all his facts right. Impressive!

Why did evolv choose to use nickel? Ponder this everyone....

Because the temperature coefficient of kanthal is too low. Busardo even demonstrates it in his video - did you watch it?

The lower the temperature coefficient (and the lower the cold resistance of a nickel coil, incidentally, which is why I always build mine kind of high), the more the static resistance of the atomizer's connectors, the 510 connector and the mod's wiring come into play and skew the temperature measurement.
 

VapeJohn

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Credit where credit's due: that's a really well researched, intelligent and informative Busardo video. He's a little confused over the watt setting in temperature control mode (which shouldn't really exist at all), but otherwise he's got all his facts right. Impressive!



Because the temperature coefficient of kanthal is too low. Busardo even demonstrates it in his video - did you watch it?

The lower the temperature coefficient (and the lower the cold resistance of a nickel coil, incidentally, which is why I always build mine kind of high), the more the static resistance of the atomizer's connectors, the 510 connector and the mod's wiring come into play and skew the temperature measurement.
I did watch it but it's a lot to digest in one sitting and it was very late at night and I was falling asleep at the time. I'll watch it again to pick up what I missed.
 

Jaaxx

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PBusardo did a very good job with this review. Long winded - check. Thorough - check.

I just fast forward to the graphs and then to the final assessment.
 

Giraut

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PBusardo did a very good job with this review. Long winded - check. Thorough - check.
I just fast forward to the graphs and then to the final assessment.

Most people will do that. Unfortunately, that's too bad because one of the cons he has against temperature control - the lack of stability of the temperature - is something I have not experienced at all. Looking at how he installs his nickel coil, I believe it comes from the poor way he connects the coil legs to the atomizer posts: in my experience, that's just not good enough for TC to work flawlessly..

If people skip through the video - in which, for once, the real meat is in the middle - all they see is "DNA40? Thumbs down." But I guess he's right: if he himself is looking for a plug-and-play temp control device, or if he's not willing to pay more attention to his nickel build than to his kanthal builds, then yeah, the DNA40 ain't for him.
 

VapeJohn

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Nice to see some youtube reviewers call it what it is... Temperature limiting :p
 

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