Seriously, we should ban them

domyz · Jul 7, 2015

I'm tired of browsing through recipes websites to get some inspiration and almost 50% of the recipes contains diketones ingredients. On kritikal mass, people seem to be addict to bavarian cream. One recipe out of 3 contains it. Seriously websites like that should ban those ingredients. It's as simple as that. Evolve.

I can't believe people are still vaping diacetyl, or diketones. I know americans love butter, but it's not a reason to breathe it haha! And personally, I find that smell and taste disgusting. I detect it easily, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

I had to share my thoughts today...

Dominic

edit:
I agree with my misuse of the word "ban". I see that the community is not so much "health" concerned.

I'll definitely try to contact e-liquid-recipes to see if he can add an attribute to some flavorings, just like he did with those known to crack tanks. This way we could report a flavoring by checking "Known to contain diketones" (or something like that). This will raise a flag to the misinformed people, and won't bother people who don't care. Best of both worlds.
I think will put back my effort doing my own recipes and finding my inspiration elsewhere from all the awful recipes listed on the websites.

Pauly Walnuts · Jul 7, 2015

Im way on the other side of the fence. I simply dont give a shit. I vape a wide variety of recipes, some have baddies and some do not. I assume most people who mix are like myself, where they arent vaping tons of baddies, by virtue of being aware of what they are.
Its never consistent, I vape a little sometimes, more other times, and none some other times.

If your that hung up on it, switch to all FA and use all FA recipes. That takes alot of guess work out and doesnt infringe on anyone elses ability to make what they want.

Mike H. · Jul 7, 2015

All bow down to FA

Pauly Walnuts · Jul 7, 2015

There are some really good FA recipes out there.
Honestly, their flavorings are the most consistent, true to life flavors on the market. Other companies have great flavors, but no company is as spot on as often, without the shit people want to stay away from.

outwest · Jul 7, 2015

I have some flavors that have acetoin in them, but I don't fret over it. After all, all the cig smoking did tons of damage. Diacetyl? No way. AP? No way. Acetoin? meh.

I do think all manufacturers have a responsibility to at least inform the consumers, though, so that we can decide for ourselves. #Dont5PawnsMeDude

OBDave · Jul 7, 2015

I certainly try to avoid as much of the bad stuff as I can personally, but I don't feel like I need to tell other people what they are and aren't allowed to vape.

domyz · Jul 7, 2015

I understand people like you that don't care, but in my opinion there is too many recipes website that don't care either. We should have a website that has an option to filter out recipes that contains unwanted ingredients. And it should be activated by default. It's more a "morale" thing than a simple functionality.

In my opinion, this industry must to become clean and healthy, and stay like that. The most common reason people stop smoking is be health, not money, not habits, not smell, etc. That's why there should more websites, flavorings and e-liquids manufacturers concerned about health issue of vaping. For the vaping industry to survive the negative propaganda, it should driven with health of his users in mind.

I'm sorry for my english, i'm trying to be as clear as I can here...

zaroba · Jul 7, 2015

You don't like it, so you think websites should ban it?

Isn't that the same logic a lot of the anti-vape people use?
And the anti-pitbull people.
And the anti-reptile people.
And the anti-gay marriage people.
And the anti-meat people.
And the anti-video game violence people.

If you don't like it, then just ignore it and go on with your life enjoying the things that you *do* like.

Pauly Walnuts · Jul 7, 2015

Its easy to give up options we dont agree with.
For instance, @zaroba loves his snakes. A 'snake law' that prohibited snakes from being pets would impact him alot, and impact me very little.
Many people love their dogs. I cant walk down the street in my home town without a dozen dogs barking their heads off at me, and a few running up to fences with the intent to bite my daughters head off. I hate this shit, but dog owners would be furious about a 'no dangerous dog law' that prohibits 'aggressive' breeds from being pets. I would be furious about an 'anti weapon' law that would give me less of a chance against a rampaging dog.
(I realize we are talking about internet policy and not laws, but its very similar in action)

But all this begs a question, whats dangerous and who decides? We have decent proof that DA and others are no good for us, but thats about it. We are talking about thousands of chemical compounds that our juice contains, and singling out the few that we know are bad.
At any time any study could claim that 90% of the food flavorings we use are hazardous if inhaled, then what? Are we going censor the entire vaping industry?

When we choose safety over freedom we deserve neither.

soulshine · Jul 7, 2015

Take the "freedom of choice" out of it. What OP doesn't understand (because only people who aren't educated about an issue are so rash in their responses), is that the flavor companies could give a SHIT about vaping. They make their flavorings to be consumed in FOOD. Not inhaled. Even FA has the "Kitchen Line" full of bad things to inhale, but not harmful when used in food. So while you're butt hurt about this issue, they don't answer to you. You are in THEIR house. They never sent you an invitation to "Come vape our Bavarian Cream!". Not sure who said it...but "better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

We all like to say important stuff on message boards, but if you don't have all the facts, you'll end up getting tons of responses like you've gotten..LOL

OBDave · Jul 7, 2015

I see a great opportunity for the OP to start the first diketone-free DIY recipe website...

Discobob · Jul 7, 2015

I'm not smoking I don't care. Ignorant attitude...sure but I'm not smoking. Put your effort into getting people to quit smoking, it would help more.

soulshine · Jul 7, 2015

OBDave said:
I see a great opportunity for the OP to start the first diketone-free DIY recipe website...

HIC pretty much already did that. It's called the Vaping Underground DIY Recipes thread

Well most of the recipes anyway..LOL

Zamazam · Jul 7, 2015

OBDave said:
I see a great opportunity for the OP to start the first diketone-free DIY recipe website...

That's a great idea!

UncleRJ · Jul 7, 2015

Just have a little warning mark beside the flavors that have those chemicals..

Then the buyer knows up front that they need to make a decision on whether to purchase those flavors or not.

Just like if you don't like a TV or Radio program.

Don't' watch or listen! You don't have to ban it.

Our elected officials are already banning lots of stuff to protect us.

Don't add to the mess.

outwest · Jul 7, 2015

I can see what @domyz is saying. It would be nice if the recipe sites would have a filter you could toggle on/off, same with a TFA/FA/CAP/etc brand filter. Would be handy for lots of folks. I think the hardest part would be identifying which flavorings have what. Kinda like the situation now where some retailers have 'this contains acetoin' for one flavoring, but other retailers don't say anything about the same, exact, flavoring.

OBDave · Jul 7, 2015

While were at it, can I get a website that'll read the Excel workbook where I keep my flavor inventory, then only suggest recipes I have everything on hand to make? And will it tell me before I mix if I'll like it or not?

Jasonfox1988 · Jul 7, 2015

Diacetyl AP Acetoin? I dont even know what these are? Anyone cere to enlighten me?
Before i know i could be vaping these yes smoking is bad but i mived to vaping to make it as healthy as possible and I definitely agree that manufacturers should inform people that what concentrates contain these or at least label it on the bottle!

happy vaping

soulshine · Jul 7, 2015

At this point though...don't we pretty much KNOW. I mean you know what flavor profiles these are most commonly found in. If you don't want to take the chance of being exposed to it...say goodbye to Vanilla, Bavarian Cream, Custard and all other flavors in that category. I guarantee you that if people just stopped buying those flavors, the companies would be QUICK to add that info if they thought that's why flavors weren't selling. Whether they tell the truth or not (hello Flavorwest!)...would remain to be seen,

With regard to recipes....WAHHH. Free recipes posted by a generous person who wants to share what they like? That's a bit over the line with the hand holding. Like a thread I saw the other day, a guy wanted them to give HIC a subforum because he couldn't gather all of the recipes fast enough to suit him because the threads had too many comments...lol REALLY??? I'm seriously waiting for a thread to show up where a vaper asks "Can somebody give me a mod and atty, make me a wicked coil, mix me some juice and then come over and vape it for me??" LMAO This seems to be where we are headed!

domyz · Jul 7, 2015

I was hard about banning those ingredients, yes. They should not. But the idea of having an option to hide them would be great. No one can argue with that. It's really simple. I did some HTML websites in my life and yes it's easy, and should be done. People that doesn't know much or simply do not have the time to read on forums about these ingredients, should have this option. There is a random-I-don't-care-about-my-health way to DIY. Then there is a much cleaner and safer way to do it. I'm sure there is a lot of people who thinks like me.

By the way congratulations to some of you for the brillant sarcasm and constructive answers I got. It really helps a conversation.There is a proper way to maintain and develop a good discussion and it seems that some of you simply don't have this ability.

zaroba · Jul 7, 2015

domyz said:
I was hard about banning those ingredients, yes. They should not. But the idea of having an option to hide them would be great. No one can argue with that. It's really simple.

I agree, having the option in your profile to just hide recipes including them is a good idea.
That way those that want to avoid them can, and those that don't mind them can still see them.
Everybody is happy. Everybody wins.

Have you tried contacting the owners of the various websites with that idea?
It would purely be up to the owners of each site.

zaroba · Jul 7, 2015

Actually, that is already possible on http://e-liquid-recipes.com/

Create a profile, add all the flavors you own to your profile, hit the button to display all recipes that you have the flavors to create. Most sites I've seen that sell flavors do include notes as to what flavors have bad stuff in them, so if you don't buy any, and don't have any to add to your profile, then you wont see any recipes that include bad things.

outwest · Jul 7, 2015

Jasonfox1988 said:
Diacetyl AP Acetoin? I dont even know what these are? Anyone cere to enlighten me?
Before i know i could be vaping these yes smoking is bad but i mived to vaping to make it as healthy as possible and I definitely agree that manufacturers should inform people that what concentrates contain these or at least label it on the bottle!

happy vaping

diacetyl causes what's known as popcorn lung. No cure. The only treatment is lung transplant.

AP (acetyl propionyl) - most food flavoring companies started substituting this for diacetyl. It's a similar chemical to diacetyl and thought to be as bad.

acetoin - some food flavoring companies began using this instead of the other two chemicals for buttery/custard notes for flavorings for inhalation, but not enough is known about it to know if it's safe or not, and it's considered a chemical of concern. Also, trace amounts of diacetyl may be created during the production of acetoin (diacetyl and acetoin are both naturally found in butter). As a result, flavoring agents using acetoin to achieve a buttery flavor may contain trace amounts of diacetyl even if diacetyl was not specifically added.

side note - there is a flavoring known as acetyl pyrazine that is often abbreviated as AP in recipes. This is a completely different chemical from acetyl propionyl and provides a roasted, nutty, or yeasty/bread flavor.

soulshine · Jul 7, 2015

Domyz, sorry if my response was harsh, but I stand behind it. All I see is these "woe is me", "why can't somebody do this for me..or that for me to make my life easier?" posts. Now mind you I got in just at the beginning of the "Protank 1" era...but the people in the "vape generation" right before mine were jerry rigging atty's with COFEE FILTERS and all kinds of other ridiculous stuff chasing just a decent vape so they didn't have to go back to smoking. Yes, there are a few ingredients that contain some very bad stuff. If you are into DIY, you can go through the threads and actually find most of the answers to all of your burning questions there. But if you have an idea of "something someone should do"...why can't YOU be the change you seek? If you can't do it.,..find someone who can do what you need done. It wasn't us that started a thread called "Seriously we should ban them..." LOL

Teresa P · Jul 7, 2015

My choice to vape is my responsibility. What I choose to vape is my responsibility. Most of us here do our own research, then weigh the pros and cons. These flavorings we use were designed for oral consumption, as food flavoring, not for inhalation. Some of them are safe for vaping, some are not. It's up to no one but ME to determine what is safe for vaping and what is not. It's not unlike all these stupid lawsuits floating around - "Why didn't someone tell me that McDonald's food would make me fat????"
Somewhere down the line people stopped taking accountability for their own actions. You look at a house before you buy it. You do your homework before you buy a car. You take a test before you carry a gun. But a food flavoring manufacturer is supposed to tell me not to put their product in my lungs? Some of them do inform us, since it's a known fact that the products aren't just orally consumed anymore, and that's great. But in the long run, it's up to ME to do my homework.

wllmc · Jul 7, 2015

lol because holding a battery and a hot coil to you face is safe to, are any ingredients safe to vape or just untested ? I believe its the vendors responsibility to reveal if these ingredients are being used or the new ones that become considered unsafe to vape that we dont know about. The big problem is juice makers not informing people of the ingredient and not encouraging people to do their researching first before purchasing the product, they just want a quick buck and thats whats wrong. I dont drink alcohol and dont see why someone would want to get wasted everyday but its none of my business either what an educated adult does with their life. All of us on this forum knew without a doubt the damage we were doing with every cigarette we smoked but we still did it and if anyone tried to take them away there would be a riot on every street in America.

I understand your passion for a healthier alternative but we cant just go around banning things we personally dont like either, and if we are I have a pretty long list.

soulshine · Jul 7, 2015

The first thing I want to ban....are threads...about banning things! They have GOT to go!!!! (There was something very "Monty Python" about the way I said that in my head...LOL)

wllmc · Jul 7, 2015

Zombiewoof · Jul 7, 2015

I add more Diacetyl and AP to everything because Stanley the Viking told me I'd get "more vapor"

f1r3b1rd · Jul 7, 2015

Why is it that whenever I see the word 'diketones' I think of softball?

wllmc · Jul 7, 2015

f1r3b1rd said:
Why is it that whenever I see the word 'diketones' I think of softball?

what ! hahahaha

domyz · Jul 7, 2015

soulshine said:
Domyz, sorry if my response was harsh, but I stand behind it. All I see is these "woe is me", "why can't somebody do this for me..or that for me to make my life easier?" posts. Now mind you I got in just at the beginning of the "Protank 1" era...but the people in the "vape generation" right before mine were jerry rigging atty's with COFEE FILTERS and all kinds of other ridiculous stuff chasing just a decent vape so they didn't have to go back to smoking. Yes, there are a few ingredients that contain some very bad stuff. If you are into DIY, you can go through the threads and actually find most of the answers to all of your burning questions there. But if you have an idea of "something someone should do"...why can't YOU be the change you seek? If you can't do it.,..find someone who can do what you need done. It wasn't us that started a thread called "Seriously we should ban them..." LOL

I agree with my misuse of the word "ban". I understand your point. I see that the community is not so much "health" oriented

I'll definitely try to contact e-liquid-recipes to see if he can add an attribute to some flavorings, just like he did with those known to crack tanks. This way we could report a flavoring by checking "Known to contain diketones" (or something like that). This will raise a flag to the misinformed people, and won't bother people who don't care. Best of both worlds.
I think will put back my effort doing my own recipes and finding my inspiration elsewhere from all the awful recipes listed on the websites.

soulshine · Jul 7, 2015

There you go Domyz! That's some THINKING! And just so you know, there are some unbelievable BAD STUFF FREE recipes right here in our own DIY recipe section. Mostly try the FA ones by HIC, wllmc, Cramptholomew and many others. FA ROCKS!

domyz · Jul 7, 2015

soulshine said:
There you go Domyz! That's some THINKING! And just so you know, there are some unbelievable BAD STUFF FREE recipes right here in our own DIY recipe section. Mostly try the FA ones by HIC, wllmc, Cramptholomew and many others. FA ROCKS!

I know about the bad recipes, gosh this is the majority of posted recipes. I still laugh when I see in example: Flavourart X 20% or TPA X 17%, 16drops of this and 37 drops of this + 6% sucralose.. hahahaha sorry

I love HIC and wllmc recipes. I love my own too !

I'm more knowledged than I seem maybe, but it's not important

I have my own local ecig commerce starting here, so I know a bunch but there is always a need to learn more and VU is by far the best website. Much better than ECF for the non starters

wllmc · Jul 7, 2015

domyz said:
I'll definitely try to contact e-liquid-recipes to see if he can add an attribute to some flavorings, just like he did with those known to crack tanks. This way we could report a flavoring by checking "Known to contain diketones" (or something like that). This will raise a flag to the misinformed people, and won't bother people who don't care. Best of both worlds.
I think will put back my effort doing my own recipes and finding my inspiration elsewhere from all the awful recipes listed on the websites.

that would be a good idea !

Zamazam · Jul 7, 2015

f1r3b1rd said:
Why is it that whenever I see the word 'diketones' I think of softball?

Hmm, when I think that word, a Girl Punk Band comes to mind.

Jasonfox1988 · Jul 8, 2015

This is interesting maybe i should stick to fa flavours from now, is diketones unsafe around others aswell then i take it

happy vaping

OBDave · Jul 8, 2015

Jasonfox1988 said:
This is interesting maybe i should stick to fa flavours from now, is diketones unsafe around others aswell then i take it

happy vaping

You're going to have to do a little searching around the forum, there's plenty of good info on acetoin, diacetyl, and diketones in general, and why they're suspected to be bad for your health. Going all FA with their vape-friendly line is the easiest way to avoid the nasties, though other companies are forthcoming to some extent or another (Flavor West falls at the opposite end of the "trustworthy" scale as compared to Flavour Art) and don't necessarily need to be written off entirely.

Of course, in the long run anything vape-related is relatively new tech and we're all essentially guinea pigging what works and doesn't for the next generation...keep that in mind at all times.

Jasonfox1988 · Jul 8, 2015

Ok then cool cheers il have a look around after work

happy vaping

Pauly Walnuts · Jul 8, 2015

Jasonfox1988 said:
Diacetyl AP Acetoin? I dont even know what these are? Anyone cere to enlighten me?
Before i know i could be vaping these yes smoking is bad but i mived to vaping to make it as healthy as possible and I definitely agree that manufacturers should inform people that what concentrates contain these or at least label it on the bottle!

happy vaping

Now that you have an understanding of what this stuff is, its time to think about it rationally.
Just the mere mention of these chemicals make people lose their fucking minds. Im not one of those people.

I get it, bronchitis obliterans (google popcorn lung) is a deadly condition and its had been linked to diacetyl in the air. The fact that diacetyl was so common and popcorn lung so rare gives me pause though.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Just be aware of what your vaping. If a recipe has caps vanilla custard, bavarian cream, butter, and five other ingredients known to have bad stuff in it, go easy or dont make it at all. If a recipe has five 'clean' ingredients and 1% of bavarian cream, theres no reason to push the panic button. Vape what you enjoy but keep a balance.
I used to vape custards exclusively, now I dont. Because of diacetyl? NO. I just moved on.

wllmc · Jul 8, 2015

you have to watch for the sub to. I can vape caps custard @20% day in and day out for the next year and be fine, 1 day of vaping caps custard V2 the "clean"version and my chest is heavy and Im ready to put the custard down.

Pauly Walnuts · Jul 8, 2015

wllmc said:
you have to watch for the sub to. I can vape caps custard @20% day in and day out for the next year and be fine, 1 day of vaping caps custard V2 the "clean"version and my chest is heavy and Im ready to put the custard down.

butyric acid? (spelling?)

zaroba · Jul 8, 2015

When it comes down to it, it is all a matter of the qty consumed.

Pretty much anything can kill you if you consume too much of it.

Just some examples.
-If you drink to much water, your electrolytes can become imbalanced and you can die. You only need to drink a few gallons in an hour to overdose. Your body can absorb water far faster then your bladder can eliminate it, so don't go thinking that you will just piss it out. Takes far less water to overdose if you've been doing any type of intense physical activity. Despite all that, we need it to survive.
-Eat too much turkey and you can die from an overdose of L-Tryptophan. But, you'd need to eat 50lb at once to get enough. What about other FDA approved uses of it as an additive?
-Eat too much calcium can result in kidney stones or worse, Hypercalcemia. But, that wont make you stop eating meat because it would be incredibly hard to eat so much meat you have calcium issues.
-What about over the counter medicine such as painkillers? All it takes is 1200mg of ibuprofen to get an overdose and get sick. And it's often sold in 200mg tablets. That's only 6 pills at once. 2400mg can kill you. But it's fine to take a lot if it's spread out over the day, like 600mg in the morning, afternoon, and night.
-Formaldehyde causes cancer. It's used in the manufacture of plastics, wood paneling, paint, fabric, even medicine. And items made with this stuff leech formaldehyde into the air long after being made. But, all cancer related cases involved people working with industrial strength quantities of it on a daily basis. So no need to fret over your couch giving you cancer.
-The chemical that makes ceder smell great is highly toxic to your esophagus and lungs. People who work in ceder mills have something like an 80% chance of developing asthma. But, it's perfectly fine in normal occasional exposure. Need to be in a concentrated environment for a long period of time to have issues.
-Sugar and Fat aren't healthy for us. But neither will cause harm for a healthy person without very long term consumption.

While yea, something *can* be dangerous, that doesn't mean you have to go to the extreme of complete abstinence to stay healthy. Life isn't just all or none. If you drink too much water, you can die. If you don't drink enough water, you can die. Moderation is the key to healthy living.

wllmc · Jul 8, 2015

lol I take waaaaaaay to much IB... 6 in the morning 6 in the afternoon and 6 at night.

burley · Jul 8, 2015

Pauly Walnuts said:
Its easy to give up options we dont agree with.
For instance, @zaroba loves his snakes. A 'snake law' that prohibited snakes from being pets would impact him alot, and impact me very little.
Many people love their dogs. I cant walk down the street in my home town without a dozen dogs barking their heads off at me, and a few running up to fences with the intent to bite my daughters head off. I hate this shit, but dog owners would be furious about a 'no dangerous dog law' that prohibits 'aggressive' breeds from being pets. I would be furious about an 'anti weapon' law that would give me less of a chance against a rampaging dog.
(I realize we are talking about internet policy and not laws, but its very similar in action)

But all this begs a question, whats dangerous and who decides? We have decent proof that DA and others are no good for us, but thats about it. We are talking about thousands of chemical compounds that our juice contains, and singling out the few that we know are bad.
At any time any study could claim that 90% of the food flavorings we use are hazardous if inhaled, then what? Are we going censor the entire vaping industry?

When we choose safety over freedom we deserve neither.

I kind of want to join your fan club. You aren't running for office, are you?

Jasonfox1988 · Jul 8, 2015

wllmc said:
you have to watch for the sub to. I can vape caps custard @20% day in and day out for the next year and be fine, 1 day of vaping caps custard V2 the "clean"version and my chest is heavy and Im ready to put the custard down.

Iv got the v1 steeping at 20% i do hope its nice lol

happy vaping

f1r3b1rd · Jul 8, 2015

Pauly Walnuts said:
Now that you have an understanding of what this stuff is, its time to think about it rationally.
Just the mere mention of these chemicals make people lose their fucking minds. Im not one of those people.

I get it, bronchitis obliterans (google popcorn lung) is a deadly condition and its had been linked to diacetyl in the air. The fact that diacetyl was so common and popcorn lung so rare gives me pause though.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Just be aware of what your vaping. If a recipe has caps vanilla custard, bavarian cream, butter, and five other ingredients known to have bad stuff in it, go easy or dont make it at all. If a recipe has five 'clean' ingredients and 1% of bavarian cream, theres no reason to push the panic button. Vape what you enjoy but keep a balance.
I used to vape custards exclusively, now I dont. Because of diacetyl? NO. I just moved on.

Sort of along the lines of 'everything in moderation.'
Except beer, a lot of beer and women of course

Jasonfox1988 · Jul 8, 2015

f1r3b1rd said:
Sort of along the lines of 'everything in moderation.'
Except beer, a lot of beer and women of course

I second that beer and women is the key just not to much women though because you will loose alot of hair haha

happy vaping

f1r3b1rd · Jul 8, 2015

Jasonfox1988 said:
I second that beer and women is the key just not to much women though because you will loose alot of hair haha

happy vaping

Its all good, im kickin the 'q' ball already. Lmao

Pauly Walnuts · Jul 8, 2015

burley said:
I kind of want to join your fan club. You aren't running for office, are you?

Ill only run for office after I have been bought by big corporations, succumbed to a corrupted party line, and completely lost all my human morality.
Real libertarians never get into office.
That doesnt rule out a fan club though

Seriously, we should ban them

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