1,3-Propanediol - what is it?

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - General Discussion' started by HeadInClouds, May 3, 2015.

  1. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    Let's gather information on Propanediol in a single thread for people interested in researching this proposed new alternative to PG in vaping. I'll start the ball rolling with an overview of Propanediol production.

    Five Pawns announced plans to use this in place of PG: https://fivepawns.com/five-pawns-to-introduce-a-new-line-of-pg-­alternative-vapor-liquids/

    PG is also known as 1,2-Propanediol. This new alternative is 1,3-Propanediol. DuPont is a major source for both. This link shows the structure of both molecules (and comparisons of skin sensitization): http://duponttateandlyle.com/pdf/CT_Skin_Sensitization_Reprint.pdf


    REALLY QUICK SUMMARY
    Vegetable oil (commonly corn oil) is used to produce biodiesel. Glycerol is a byproduct of that production process. Various bacteria can be used to ferment glycerol into 1,3-Propanediol (PG) or into 1,2-Propanediol. The latest developments include DuPont's custom modified strain of E. coli for 1,3-Propanediol production.


    DUPONT'S PRODUCTION METHOD
    DuPont (and 13 others) patent information: http://www.google.com/patents/WO1998021339A1?cl=en
    DuPont's brief description from that document: "1 ,3-Propanediol is a monomer having potential utility in the production of polyester fibers and the manufacture of polyurethanes and cyclic compounds."
    Also from their patent information:
    "BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF BIOLOGICAL DEPOSITS AND SEQUENCE LISTING The transformed E. coli W2042 (comprising the E. coli host W1485 and plasmids pDT20 and pAH42) containing the genes encoding glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase (G3PDH) and glycerol-3 -phosphatase (G3P phosphatase), glycerol dehydratase (dhaB), and 1,3-propanediol oxidoreductase (dhaT) was deposited on 26 September 1996 with the ATCC under the terms of the Budapest Treaty on the International Recognition of the Deposit of Micro-organisms for the Purpose of Patent Procedure and is designated as ATCC 98188."

    My summary of DuPont's description: DuPont genetically altered E. coli bacteria to use in fermentation of glycerol to produce 1,3-Propanediol. Their stated purpose: "rapid, inexpensive and environmentally responsible source of 1,3-propanediol monomer useful in the production of polyesters and other polymers."


    OTHER MODERN METHODS
    Other bacteria can be used, and the field is a hotbed of innovation.
    Klebsiella pneumonia can be used: www.gjesm.net/article_10775_1612.html
    (research paper, Spring 2015, from Agharkar Research Institute's Microbial Sciences Division in India)
    Background on klebsiella pneumonia: http://www.klebsiellapneumoniae.org/

    A good overview of the progression of methods of 1,3-Propanediol production up through 2011: http://www.pfb.info.pl/files/kwartalnik2/1_2011/13.Drozdzynska.pdf (This 2011 research paper predates DuPont's patent of their custom E. coli.)


    SOME MORE LINKS
    Technical data for the chemistry experts here: http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.13839553.html?rid=38d00bd5-7c4a-4a67-a1f8-47c177de8b7e (synonyms, properties, vendors, links to numerous articles)

    Generic MSDS for 1,3-Propanediol: http://datasheets.scbt.com/sc-320321.pdf (OSHA)

    DuPont's product safety summary sheet: http://www.dupont.com/content/dam/a...ts/1,3-Propanediol Product Safety Summary.pdf
     
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  2. cindycated

    cindycated Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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  3. RocketPuppy

    RocketPuppy Gold Contributor

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    On the forum that shall be nameless, there were a few discussions on it quite awhile ago. Can't seem to find the good one now. My sleuthing skills are lacking. I wonder why 5 Pawns just started using it since it's not new. Or rather, I wonder what prompted them to start using it. There are a few European companies that have been for some time. When I'm not on my phone, hopefully I can pull up some of my old notes.
     
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  4. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    Last edited: May 3, 2015
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  5. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I have a vaping buddy who is a toxicologist,and another whose a chemist and I have request into them regarding this stuf....I doubt 5 pawns and the other juice companies in europe would use it without vetting it first.....
    The real question is getting your hands on the stuff..both DOW and DuPont have gotten on their high horses about not supporting vaping and so getting stuff like PEG400 was impossible in the US though you could get it europe. I think it is funny a company that supplies probablly most of the chemicals for tobacco production as well as agent orange suddenly got a social conciousness. more likely they support big tobacco.
    I am wondering if anybody's heard of any place to procure the stuff.
     
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  6. Huckleberried

    Huckleberried Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Thank you for starting this up!
     
  7. Callipleura

    Callipleura New Member

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    Thanks for starting this thread HIC.
    Sure there is - that one place that has the bargain pricing that everyone is tripping over themselves to get. (Bad joke and I am sorry for bringing the quality of the thread down).
    ...

    So is Zemea USP is what is being used for inhalation (vaping) and not the other grades?
    There are samples that can be had, any chemist/someone with knowledge planning on getting a sample and reporting back here?
    The proprietary nature and name turns me off - (it seems to be against the DIY ethic) but maybe that is just my problem/lack of information.
    Cheers

    Edit: To clarify my first question: Are all 1,3-Propanediol USP equivalent, regardless of the brand name or the manufacturing processes used to get it there. And is the USP label/grade one would look for if one wanted to inhale it for vaping purposes?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
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  8. Zanaspus

    Zanaspus New Member

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    My question is; if you're not allergic to PG, what's the point? It's more viscous and has a higher vape temperature than PG. Are we really only targeting the PG sensitive, or am I missing something?
     
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  9. AmandaD

    AmandaD Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    From reading the Five Pawns blurb I had the impression it was for people who wanted clouds and flavor without the harshness of PG. I rarely go over 50% PG because high VG makes me cough. But high PG is much harsher, and there's no way I can do lung hits with that. So perhaps this will solve that problem?
     
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  10. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    for alot of us it's about PG sensitivity....the only reason I got into DIY was because after a year and a half of vaping I had to face the truth I was sensitive to PG..I had tapered off, but I finally had to start vaping high VG juices...and they were all total crap.The only 100% VG juice I could stomach were NET juices,and so I vaped them,and then I decided to just start doing my own tobacco extractions and mix my own juice.....if there was an alternative base to PG that didn't cause an allergic reaction and could carry flavor better than VG it would be a godsend.
     
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  11. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    well,it's about time someone started making juice that provided for those of us sensitive to PG....most high VG juices target cloud chasers,drippers with huge airflows washes out flavor,compared to a genny,and so the flavors are usually overly sweet and overly flavored, and not very nuanced,because drippers don't really excel at nuanced juices.If there was a base that was a better flavor carrier and didn't cause allergic reaction you could craft the sort of complex flavored juices like 5 pawns make.....I was a real 5 pawns fanboy(absolute pin and gambit),but I just had to give it up because of their high PG %.......
     
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  12. Zanaspus

    Zanaspus New Member

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    I meant no offense to the PG sensitive. I'm truly glad there's an alternative for you.
     
  13. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I didn't precieve any offense from you....none taken....It's kinda of a rare condition most people have no problem with PG.and I'm just sensitive to it....some people it causes rashes,mouth sores,....I get slightly itchy eyes and sinus irritation,but if I vape it over time..I get extreme fatigue,and body cramps.fuzzy headed.
     
  14. Callipleura

    Callipleura New Member

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    I'm am not an expert at all on chemical structures, and none of this is fact, but maybe nicotine uptake would be better or worse, purity %'s, known consistent manufacturing methods, air quality factors maybe different verses PG etc. It might be like the difference between cis or trans fats or not - I don't know, but I'd like to. I guess it would add more to the researchers plate to have to study PDO as well... lol.

    I found a few papers (links to pdf's) that touched on some aspects of Propylene Glycol (I'll just stick them here if it's ok, maybe to compare against, as I'll never find them again).
    Werley et al (2011) - abstract only, first in man study using aerosol
    Schripp et al (2012) - touches on PG and air quality/second hand vape
    Romagna et al (2012) - touches on PG and air quality/second hand vape
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
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  15. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Corn = transgenic. It is made from corn form what I heard elsewhere. Is it true ? I don't know.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  16. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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  17. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Information on REDDIT about Five Pawns, using propanediol :
    • This "new" base, 1,3-propanediol is in the same glycol family as PG. Technically PG is 1,2-propanediol – so calling this base just "propanediol" is sort of a misnomer.
    • The blog post mentions that their PD is "EcoCert approved", which means it's DuPont's Zemea® brand.
    • The production process involves bacterial fermentation by a special GMO strain of E. coli DuPont owns – neat!
     
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  18. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    first off how do you know "ecoCert is neccessarily Zema, as far as I've read there are numerous ways of making propanediol 1,3... this product seems to not cause alot of the allergic reactions that PG causes so it is in fact for our purposes somthing quite different and not simply a misnomer....I understand your concerns especially when it involves a multinational corporation with a damn shady past,as well as your concerns about GMOs....but to try and bring the product itself into disrepute by assocciation serves no purpose and could be a real boon to vapers..after all alot of our VG is a byproduct of the biodesil process and have some nasty stuff attached to it.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
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  19. BigNasty

    BigNasty Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Joy another winning gem brought to you by DuPont.
    Forget the bright shining stars of their winning cancer causing line ups with beacons like Agent Orange and Aspertaime (which was trying to weaponize e.coli shit)
     
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  20. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    First off, I just report what I saw on Reddit.
     
  21. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    But good luck to find numerous Ecocert cetfified propanediol manufacturers
     
  22. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    actually I have friend whose a chemist and a has a Phd in toxicology who sent me a list...but thanks ...I know it's not Reddit, but I'll listen to what he has to say on the subject.
     
  23. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    You will not find true organic product in this category for now, phd or not.
     
  24. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Yep, they'll sell you all that shit you want ,but they won't sell you anything that is in any way related to the vaping industry...I tried to buy PEG400 of them and they got all high and mighty and grew a social conciencous....
     
  25. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    really...and other than your intimate and indepth study of Reddit what leads you to believe this.My search into this has a long way to go,I'd hate to have my hopes dashed so early.As for "true" organic whatever that means... I don't need organic, just lots safer than smoking will do.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  26. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    You said you have a list, but you can't name anything. This is always the same source cited on Google.
     
  27. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    UUHHMM no it's not..he sent it to me and as far as I know nobody else...nobody else asked him about it...and he's not all that interested in it, I just asked him as a favor....I haven't told anyone, becuase it's a lot of information and I haven't sat down and gone through it as I have a few other more pressing issues in my life.....but some guy who reads a half dozen Reddit threads and pawns himself off as an expert doesn't deter me in the least. I believe everything should be looked at with diligence,but hysteria is not diligence.....there have been fear mongering over....ss mesh..kanthal...nichrome...cotton...rayon....aluminum oxide....Titanium wire...naval brass....ect.....
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  28. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    To me VG and PG feels better than GMO corn syrup or GMO bacterial poop sourced propanediol.
     
  29. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    you just never got your hands on some real outstanding "organic" bacterial poop.and as far as I know GMO corn iss not allowed within the EU....
     
  30. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    The corn isn't, but Dupont GMO E Coli is. :(
     
  31. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    OTHER MODERN METHODS
    Other bacteria can be used, and the field is a hotbed of innovation.
    Klebsiella pneumonia can be used: www.gjesm.net/article_10775_1612.html
    (research paper, Spring 2015, from Agharkar Research Institute's Microbial Sciences Division in India)
    Background on klebsiella pneumonia: http://www.klebsiellapneumoniae.org/
     
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  32. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    There is some hope.
     
  33. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    yes some hope.....maybe....the technology is there .....but the goverments are doing alot to put the hammer down on everything...I just read that north carolina just introduced a tax on all nicotine products,and so one of the only sources for VT nicotine in the US shutdown selling nic.because they were located in NC,
    also apparently the cubans and russians and americans are using viruses to help create drugs that fight cancer.
     
  34. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    ummm no.

    from their fb:

    Bull City Vapor
    Dear Customers:
    As some of you may be aware North Carolina has introduced new regulations affecting the vaping community that will be enacted beginning June 1, 2015. This includes a new tax that will be assessed on sales of products containing nicotine. As a result, we are suspending all sales of nicotine, effective immediately. We are in the process of working out an arrangement where VapersTek nicotine, DIY supplies and an even larger selection of flavorings will be available to order all in one place! Our facility in Durham will become singularly focused on meeting the rapidly growing demand for flavorings suitable for DIY. We thank you for being loyal customers and look forward to handling all of your DIY needs in the weeks to come.
    Sincerely,
    Your friends at Bull City Vapor

    https://www.facebook.com/BullCityVapor/posts/661625307315329
     
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  35. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    well from this it seems that bull city will no longer sell nic.....just flavorings...
     
  36. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    doesnt sound like that to me, @pulsevape
    bet you could call and ask them, they'd be more than happy to answer any questions..
    just give them time to sort it all out..
     
  37. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    So, you think they are moving their operations outta state, and leaving the Durham facility to just focus on flavorings.
     
  38. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    Their note said nothing on moving..
     
  39. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    have you spoken with them, about all this?
     
  40. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    no, but you could.. i merely passed the note they shared in a group that I am in with them.
     
  41. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    So, it appears it's anybody's guess......I'll drop them a note, as I really like the VT nic, and would like to have a reliable american source.
     
  42. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    that will work, or you can contact vt, either way, it is not being threatened..
    only that now, there is a 5% tax in state.
     
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  43. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I found 3 products in this category available (but information is very limited)

    DKS Zero base (Italia) (made from corn)
    PGV Solubarôme (France)
    Illixir (0 or with nic.) (France) (made from cereal ?)
     
  44. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    There is also a propanediol called XXX (removed regarding the lack of information).
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
  45. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    O.K...there is something that is eing called biobased PG....I can't tell if it's 1,3 propanediol or something completely different.though they both are being derived from corn.
     
  46. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Radianol 4713 seems popular in Europe.
     
  47. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Finally Radianol is a popular subject of discussion but is NOT good. Bad aftertaste. It involves heavy metal in the process. So this is worse than regular PG.This is a chinese invention to make PG with VG.
     
  48. Jimi D

    Jimi D Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    I have some ordered to try
     
  49. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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  50. VinceV1

    VinceV1 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016

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