Become a Patron!

A critique of 18 bad studies

stevegmu

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Smokers continuing to smoke is killing smokers, not opposition to electronic cigarettes...
Just based on this forum, e-cig use among adolescents is rampant...
 

skoony

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Smokers continuing to smoke is killing smokers, not opposition to electronic cigarettes...
Just based on this forum, e-cig use among adolescents is rampant...

So here's where you've been hiding.
Happy Turkey Day Steve.
Regards
Mike
 

stevegmu

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
The problem with studies and counter points, is each side will only believe what they want and what suits their purpose. There rarely is a middle ground anymore...
 

robot zombie

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Smokers continuing to smoke is killing smokers, not opposition to electronic cigarettes...
Just based on this forum, e-cig use among adolescents is rampant...
Haha, the scary part is that most of them are most likely grown adults.

The problem with studies and counter points, is each side will only believe what they want and what suits their purpose. There rarely is a middle ground anymore...
Yeah, just as studies can be constructed in such a way as to produce a certain result, language and rhetoric can be used to convince people of completely unrelated ideas. On one hand, there are scientists and journalists spinning facts to oppose vaping, while vapers have their dogmatic rhetoric to convince others that they are beng lied to by the opposition. The automatic reaction to a study is "They're lying and here's how." Both sides live by their agendas and that dictates how their arguments and counter-arguments are formed.

I imagine that we look the much same from their side of the fence as they do from ours.

This makes it difficult to separate arguments from facts. The crux of most arguments relies upon deciding the truth. We don't know the truth... ...in reality, it has yet to be seen, so we instead extrapolate it with logic. This can be a dangerous thing.

People, in general, are to blame for the lack of the middle ground. Lots people out there are intellectually lazy and don't like doing the footwork to draw their own conclusions. They prefer to borrow from someone else's point of view. This inevitably leads to the "with us or against us" fallacy running rampant. Personally, I think people should look at the facts on their own and try to discern the truth for themselves, rather than letting an article tell them what truths have been decided... ...who's wrong and who's right isn't what the discussion should be about. That's why we go in circles. We need to instead examine what is real and what is not. Facts do not lie, but people sure do.

But then again, the assumption that there must be a middle ground is also a fallacy. The world doesn't necessarily operate that way. Facts are absolutely black and white. Only the interpretations are gray.
 

stevegmu

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Haha, the scary part is that most of them are most likely grown adults.


Yeah, just as studies can be constructed in such a way as to produce a certain result, language and rhetoric can be used to convince people of completely unrelated idea. On one hand, there are scientists and journalists spinning facts to oppose vaping, while vapers have their dogmatic rhetoric. The automatic reaction to a study is "They're lying and here's how." Both sides live by their agendas and that dictates how their arguments and counter-arguments are formed.

I imagine that we look the much same from their side of the fence as they do from ours.

This makes it difficult to separate arguments from facts. The crux of most arguments relies upon deciding the truth. We don't know the truth... ...in reality, it has yet to be seen, so we instead extrapolate it with logic. This can be a dangerous thing.

People, in general, are to blame for the lack of the middle ground. Lots people out there are intellectually lazy and don't like doing the footwork to draw their own conclusions. They prefer to borrow from someone else's point of view. This inevitably leads to the "with us or against us" fallacy running rampant. Personally, I think people should look at the facts on their own and try to discern the truth for themselves, rather than letting an article tell them what truths have been decided... ...who's wrong and who's right isn't what the discussion should be about. That's why we go in circles. We need to instead examine what is real and what is not. Facts do not lie, but people sure do.

But then again, the assumption that there must be a middle ground is also a fallacy. The world doesn't necessarily operate that way. Facts are absolutely black and white. Only the interpretations are gray.

The biggest problem I see on the vape forums is the Group Think mentality. Anyone dare have a differing opinion and they are attacked. Normal vapers and those looking in from the outside can't help but have a poor image of vaping and the vape world. It is the all or nothing mentality which takes any credibility from vaping and relegates it to the same level, if not below that of those who promote other vaporizers. At least the other industry has grown up. The electronic cigarette world hasn't. Perhaps the online e-cigarette world is simply dominated by the Millennial generation, which is easily influenced and seemingly has trouble coming to conclusions on their own...

Studies today are essentially meaningless, as they find what the sponsor of the study is looking for, or come with the expectation of proving or disproving something which may well take decades and many 1000's of subjects to come to a conclusive scientific result...
 

robot zombie

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
The biggest problem I see on the vape forums is the Group Think mentality. Anyone dare have a differing opinion and they are attacked. Normal vapers and those looking in from the outside can't help but have a poor image of vaping and the vape world. It is the all or nothing mentality which takes any credibility from vaping and relegates it to the same level, if not below that of those who promote other vaporizers.
Very well said. This has been a problem I've seen for years. Honestly, the dogma almost turned me off from vaping for good back when bottom coil clearos were all the rage! I thought to myself "Woah! Vaping is interesting, but vapers are loony! I don't know if I can get behind this..." This is not a new problem and nothing has changed. There's a very cult-like mentality to the culture... ...perhaps an almost religious way of thinking that people get indoctrinated into.

At least the other industry has grown up. The electronic cigarette world hasn't. Perhaps the online e-cigarette world is simply dominated by the Millennial generation, which is easily influenced and seemingly has trouble coming to conclusions on their own...
It's eerily reminiscent of the internet PC craze, isn't it? It's bordering on narcissism. Some people just want to feel like they're fighting the good fight.
 

stevegmu

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Very well said. This has been a problem I've seen for years. Honestly, the dogma almost turned me off from vaping for good back when bottom coil clearos were all the rage! I thought to myself "Woah! Vaping is interesting, but vapers are loony! I don't know if I can get behind this..." This is not a new problem and nothing has changed. There's a very cult-like mentality to the culture... ...perhaps an almost religious way of thinking that people get indoctrinated into.


It's eerily reminiscent of the internet PC craze, isn't it? It's bordering on narcissism. Some people just want to feel like they're fighting the good fight.

It is difficult to comprehend and looks ridiculous from the outside looking in.
Very much so. Even if they don't know what the good fight really is...
 

skoony

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Haha, the scary part is that most of them are most likely grown adults.


Yeah, just as studies can be constructed in such a way as to produce a certain result, language and rhetoric can be used to convince people of completely unrelated ideas. On one hand, there are scientists and journalists spinning facts to oppose vaping, while vapers have their dogmatic rhetoric to convince others that they are beng lied to by the opposition. The automatic reaction to a study is "They're lying and here's how." Both sides live by their agendas and that dictates how their arguments and counter-arguments are formed.

I imagine that we look the much same from their side of the fence as they do from ours.

This makes it difficult to separate arguments from facts. The crux of most arguments relies upon deciding the truth. We don't know the truth... ...in reality, it has yet to be seen, so we instead extrapolate it with logic. This can be a dangerous thing.

People, in general, are to blame for the lack of the middle ground. Lots people out there are intellectually lazy and don't like doing the footwork to draw their own conclusions. They prefer to borrow from someone else's point of view. This inevitably leads to the "with us or against us" fallacy running rampant. Personally, I think people should look at the facts on their own and try to discern the truth for themselves, rather than letting an article tell them what truths have been decided... ...who's wrong and who's right isn't what the discussion should be about. That's why we go in circles. We need to instead examine what is real and what is not. Facts do not lie, but people sure do.

But then again, the assumption that there must be a middle ground is also a fallacy. The world doesn't necessarily operate that way. Facts are absolutely black and white. Only the interpretations are gray.
The biggest problem with your opinion is there are good studies showing vaping to be magnitudes of order safer
than smoking. Do those that oppose vaping critique them? No. They cant. Did you read the link I posted?
Virtually every study that those that oppose use as reference is flawed. Where is there list of our flawed studies?
There isn't any. This in and of itself should convince most reasonable people which side is closer to the truth.
One can in fact say vaping is relatively safe. If one wants to wait until the vaunted long term studies are complete
fine. Just remember they are more likely to prove vaping is as safe as drinking tap water than causing cancer.
Regards
Mike
 

skoony

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
The biggest problem I see on the vape forums is the Group Think mentality. Anyone dare have a differing opinion and they are attacked. Normal vapers and those looking in from the outside can't help but have a poor image of vaping and the vape world. It is the all or nothing mentality which takes any credibility from vaping and relegates it to the same level, if not below that of those who promote other vaporizers. At least the other industry has grown up. The electronic cigarette world hasn't. Perhaps the online e-cigarette world is simply dominated by the Millennial generation, which is easily influenced and seemingly has trouble coming to conclusions on their own...

Studies today are essentially meaningless, as they find what the sponsor of the study is looking for, or come with the expectation of proving or disproving something which may well take decades and many 1000's of subjects to come to a conclusive scientific result...
The problem is you Steve. When you call people a bunch of mindless addicts it tends to rub people the wrong way.
When you accuse vapers of behavior (cloud chasing) as the reason the FDA is going to regulate it rubs people the wrong
way. The FDA is regulating us all because of all our behavior. We are not smoking cigarettes ergo, we are all bad.
Regards
Mike
 

stevegmu

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
The problem is you Steve. When you call people a bunch of mindless addicts it tends to rub people the wrong way.
When you accuse vapers of behavior (cloud chasing) as the reason the FDA is going to regulate it rubs people the wrong
way. The FDA is regulating us all because of all our behavior. We are not smoking cigarettes ergo, we are all bad.
Regards
Mike
Perhaps it is because so many act like mindless addicts... Public cloudchasers do make vaping look bad, and probably do spur local regulation, but e cigs are going to be regulated because they are a product which is inhaled, which contains a tobacco product. All tobacco products are regulated...
 
Last edited:

skoony

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Perhaps it is because so many act like mindless addicts... Public cloudchasers do make vaping look bad, and probably do spur local regulation, but e cigs are going to be regulated because they are a product which is inhaled, which contains a tobacco product. All tobacco products are regulated...
Okie Dokie Steve. i'll be back later. I have to pierce some skin ulcers and pull a loose tooth.
Regards
Mike
 

robot zombie

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
The biggest problem with your opinion is there are good studies showing vaping to be magnitudes of order safer
than smoking. Do those that oppose vaping critique them? No. They cant. Did you read the link I posted?
I did read the article. It was a well-compiled collection of notoriously bad studies/reporting and counter-arguments.

Virtually every study that those that oppose use as reference is flawed. Where is there list of our flawed studies?
There isn't any. This in and of itself should convince most reasonable people which side is closer to the truth.
Vapers know this very well. Other people do not, because they don't care. These sorts of articles only impact vapers... ...we are the only ones who care to read them. It doesn't influence the public perception much because people don't want to sit and read about studies.

The counter-arguments to those studies don't change the hearts and minds of people, let alone the politicians in power, many of whom know it is not this monstrous public health concern that it has sometimes been made out to be, but will motion to have harsh regulations placed on it regardless. The debate has never been about public health.
 

stevegmu

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
I did read the article. It was a well-compiled collection of notoriously bad studies/reporting and counter-arguments.


Vapers know this very well. Other people do not, because they don't care. These sorts of articles only impact vapers... ...we are the only ones who care to read them. It doesn't influence the public perception much because people don't want to sit and read about studies.

The counter-arguments to those studies don't change the hearts and minds of people, let alone the politicians in power, many of whom know it is not this monstrous public health concern that it has sometimes been made out to be, but will motion to have harsh regulations placed on it regardless. The debate has never been about public health.
It really boils down to vaping looks like smoking and 'normalizes' the act of smoking. Politicians don't want that; neither does the public at large. Thanks to the efforts of those who make a living being 'antis', like B. Goodshall, smoking, and that which looks like smoking in the US has been demonized and relegated to being a taboo addiction...
 

zaroba

Gold Contributor
Member For 5 Years
People always talk about ecigs 'normalizing' smoking.
in 2005, 20% of americans smoked.
in 2013, 17% of americans smoked.
Globally, 13% of the worlds population smokes.

E-cigs are making the number go down, sure, but cig smoking wasn't exactly unusual to begin with.
It was pretty damn common to see people smoking before ecigs were common, and it still is.
 
Last edited:

efektt

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Yes, I probably see 50 smokers to 1 vaper.
 

skoony

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I did read the article. It was a well-compiled collection of notoriously bad studies/reporting and counter-arguments.


Vapers know this very well. Other people do not, because they don't care. These sorts of articles only impact vapers... ...we are the only ones who care to read them. It doesn't influence the public perception much because people don't want to sit and read about studies.

The counter-arguments to those studies don't change the hearts and minds of people, let alone the politicians in power, many of whom know it is not this monstrous public health concern that it has sometimes been made out to be, but will motion to have harsh regulations placed on it regardless. The debate has never been about public health.
I agree the general public is apathetic when it comes to many things. The reason I posted is for those here
that continue in our struggle to have good information concerning what vaping is and, isn't. Some folks
simply can't or, won't change their minds. However I have found that by having a good foundation concerning
the facts I have been able to convince quite a few non-smokers that second hand vapor is nothing to fear and,
I am quite confident any harm from vaping to vapers would be trivial compared to cigarettes.
As more people switch or start vaping the word will spread. The ANTZ fear this the most.
So keep on vaping and spread the word
Regards
Mike
 

VU Sponsors

Top