advanced study?

Discussion in 'Battery Junkies / Chargers' started by susieqz, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    ok, tutors, i've been studying what you told me.
    some stuff, i think i get.

    amps is just rate of electron flow n the rate coming from the battery must be the same as that coming back.
    that makes no sense, but i take your word fort it.
    now, volts is the number of electrons passing in the current.,
    multiplying them gives me watts.

    ok, fine.
    but what is the mod regulating to give me the watts i want?
    is it adjusting volts or amps?
     
  2. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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  3. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    ok, thanks. so, ohms get involved.
    i'll go look.
     
  4. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    You tell a regulated mod how much wattage you want. It calculates how much voltage and amperage that will require and looks at the battery/ies, and assuming that voltage and amperage is available, manipulates the battery power to send that wattage to the coils. Once it gets there, how the coils behave (heat, ramp up) depends on their resistance and mass.
     
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  5. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    1. "current" (flow) as in "that's one goddamned FAST river!"
    2. "vollts" (potential) as in: that's just a little pond vs "gawdamn, that's the Hoover DAM!"
    3. "ohms" (resistance) is the pipe diameter/angle. But with water, it's usually too cold to "heat up" via friction, and friction/resistance is what this is about.
    4. "watts" (power) is about the ratios of above, not even "work" (I'd chuckle at 'work' as a def anymore ;-) A def is: "the power produced by a current of one ampere across a potential difference of one volt". And frankly, you can trust WATTS more than VOLTS for any given atty setup. (You'll still twiddle it for assorted reasons)
     
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  6. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    so, it regulates both volts n amps.
    is there another way to do that without a computer?
     
  7. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Are you discussing mods/boards? Sure: PWM, rheostats (wasted energy), CMOS transistors, etc.

    On the whole, I find PWM at high-frequencies interesting in a way that <proprietary-never-you-damned-mind> Regulation will never match.
     
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  8. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Ohms-Law-Formula-Wheel.png

    For the math inclined.
    For the rest of us watch out for cranial implosion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  9. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    This is a bad analogy, but think if you blew up a balloon and pinched the end keeping the air in. The air will stay in as long as you keep the end pinched. That's a charged battery sitting in a case.

    As soon as you open your fingers a little, the air starts rushing out. It doesn't care what you point it at, it just wants to get out. This is KINDA like what happens when you close a battery circuit by letting the positive and negative ends reach each other by putting them both the same path. (closed circuit). One end is full of pressure (voltage) that pushes the electrons out of the battery and down the path of whatever conductive materials are touching it on both ends.

    Along that path it does whatever work the circuit was designed to do. In this case heat resistance wire. It passes through the wire, producing heat due to the resistance and back into the other side of the battery. When the first side is empty and the other side is full, there isn't enough pressure to do the work any more. We put them on a charger that moves the electrons back into the side they started in so they can do more work for us.

    That's a rushed explanation of how the electrons go "back into" to the battery.
     
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  10. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Yeah, that visual is bad for several reasons, like the pressure, ballon-size, etc. Needs work ;-)
     
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  11. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I said it was bad :)

    But what's been hanging her up most of all it seems up is the idea of electrons returning to the battery. That's what I was focusing on and It was all I could think of off the top of my head. A balloon doesn't have positive and negative air and there is no circuit. ALRIGHT!! I take it back :D.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  12. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    ahh.. Well, ok.. I got a simple view of this:
    1. It's a CLOSED CIRCUIT - like a fun-ride at a water-park.. All the water is contained in the CELL (at one end)
    2. All the water runs thru all of the park to the OTHER END
    3. You have now exhausted the battery.
    Plug in the pumps and "recharge" the other end.

    Oh, and every year or two you need to replace the tank, if not the pump ;-)
     
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  13. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Yes, this is what I was talking about last night when she was asking about electrons being "turned into" heat. They're not turned into heat. They produce heat by producing friction as they pass though the wire.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019 at 12:23 AM
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  14. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    MUCH better indeed.
     
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  15. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    BTW @susieqz

    Good for you not giving up on learning. Not that somebody can't vape without knowing all this, but clearly you are interested and I doubt you would be if it was actually beyond your powers.
     
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  16. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    THis is why I also sorta' left kanthal/ni80 - once you do the math and see that SS316L and friends can do the job with only an extra loop or so, then why bother buying toaster-wire? ;-)
     
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  17. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    ok, ohms is just resistence, like in my coil n i suppose the wires to n from.
    i knew it was in there somewhere.
    that's what drives me crazy.
    that kirchoff guy say the speed out is the same as that coming back. logically, resistance should slow a flow.
    where did you guys find the omega symbol?

    i was kinda wondering if i need the computer board.
    i don't need all those adjustments, if the battery would deliver a constant 40 watts to my coils,
     
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  18. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Yes. It's good to pursue this, own a copy of the PVIR chart, do the math, and know a site or two to do what you want.

    Next up: current-sensors and shunt-resistors ;-)

    Joking aside, if you grok the basics, then you can stock a few different wires, crank thru the steamengine, and get in the park w/i a few watts or volt.
     
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  19. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I like NI80, but that's a different discussion :)
     
  20. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I'm sure it "slows it" as well, but when yer dealing with Lightspeed, the "slowing" is in fractions we basically ignore.

    If you are thinking this has to do with LAG/heatup-time, yes: it does - it relates to the power you are dumping into and thru the material.
     
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  21. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Well, it's the same discussion: I still stock ni80/kanth, but almost never use it.

    That said, the pair of Noisy Cricket v1's are boxed and stored for the Pockylisp.
     
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  22. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    It won't unless you build your coils at about .34 all the time and it will change as the battery loses voltage. The computer and the regulation circuitry take care of all that for you.

    EDIT: You're describing an unregulated mod btw. Battery/ies direct to the coil/s.
     
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  23. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    A balloon is more like a capacitor.
     
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  24. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    hohoho, pmw requires calculus,
    no way.
     
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  25. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    RIght. This is the main and major reason why VW/VV is "more better" (and more complicated): something, be it a RC circuit or an MCU, is watching output to keep it "in range".

    This is also the reason a LOT of people see mechs as "mobetta" - because they wind the exact coil they want, vape it, and then swap cells.

    I don't fault folks for the latter view or the former view: but the latter view means they are taking Responsibility - we all know folks hate to do that.

    No, PWM is more ratios - easy-peasy. You can even get a cheap PWM board for less than $15, (I did and it works really, really well - but it's "stupid" and needs 2 or 3 cells in series).
     
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  26. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    oops. unregulated mod!
    no way i can be trusted with that.
    my version of murphy's law is:
    IF IT CAN GO WRONG, IT WILL.
     
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  27. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Damn. Calculus? I've taken it 4 times and never did better than a D on the finals - my memory is always screwed by question 3. It's just RATIOS
     
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  28. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I think you mean PWM. (pulse width modulation).

    Very interesting, but well beyond what is normally practical for even the enthusiast vapor to master. I know I haven't .
     
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  29. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    My dentist said that calculus is a bad thing.
    And will result in gum disease and tooth loss.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  30. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    /sigh

    Look, I don't care what you decide you won't do - we offered up the basics, and discussed a few alternatives to buck-boost regulation is all.
     
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  31. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    No, I just meant that if you take the computer and it's related circuitry out of the equation, what you have is an unregulated mod. Where whatever is available in the battery is sent straight to the coil.
     
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  32. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Ahh but fun for electronics nerds to play with :)

    I manage to deal with PWM and I am a math moron.
    PWM is just turning the voltage on and off really fast.
    And varying how long it is off and on.

    Now calculating the wattage from it is another matter. I mostly use it to vary electric motor speed.
     
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  33. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    TC: "I am clueless and I am praying you know better"
    VW: "I know what I built, gimme the temps I expect"
    VV: "I'm too fundamental for VW"
    Non-Regulated: "Magic Mosfets will save my world!"
    Mechs: "I'm too busy killing zombies to give a damn"
    PWM: "I'm too cheap to overpay for TC/VW/non-regulated/mechs"
     
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  34. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    LOL!
    There might be just a smidgen of oversimplification in there.
     
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  35. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Very, very little.
     
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  36. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    That's what it does, but how it does it is where the fun begins.
     
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  37. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    now that i know all this stuff, does anyone have the formula for determining
    how many amps i need in a battery to give me 40 watts?

    i have all the batteries i need but it would be fun to be able to calculate.
     
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  38. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I don't worry about generating, redirection and focus of microwaves; or radio xmit/recv. How the car is doing what it does: just start and stop ;-)

    I program, the rest is "omgwtf whothehellwrotethisshit?"
     
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  39. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    steam engine
     
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  40. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Seems weird maybe for a computer guy, but I hate math :D
     
  41. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    thanks tons guys.
    each thread teaches me more n more.
    i do think i should understand even unregulated mods.
     
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  42. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I enjoy juggling up as far as trig and alegbra, but I am not paid to do math - it's either "natural", or some damned plot to make me rage.
     
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  43. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I use either a 555 chip or an Arduino.
     
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  44. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Calculators are the only way to go.
     
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  45. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    99% of this nonsense is: battery? capacity+max-discharge-rate. Coil? current-required-at-voltage.

    The FUN is when idiots design switches that can't take a little heat or amps, and NOW you need a way to get a big, steaming pile of current from A to B - thru a teeny little switch at .ab. or .ba. - oh, much fun now.
     
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  46. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Unregulated mods are actually the easiest to understand.
    Straight forward Ohms law.
    Well except for the varying battery voltage output due to discharge and load.
    :)
     
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  47. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Steam Engine or the Vape Tools app will do it quickly like these guys said. if you want to learn more, maybe THIS
    Mooch goes over it alot in his videos too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019 at 9:37 PM
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  48. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    True.
     
  49. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    amps = volts/ resistance?
    if the coil is .2omega, how much resistance is in the rest of the mod?
    then i still gotta translate to watts?
    is that right?
     
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  50. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    The mod and the batteries themselves also have some resistance. (internal resistance)

    I'm too tired at the moment, but Mooch goes over the triangle method of figuring ohm's law in one of his videos. I can't remeber which one it was where he went into a lot of detail.
     
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