advanced study?

Discussion in 'Battery Junkies / Chargers' started by susieqz, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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  2. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Yep. In his test report on the 30Q he said that as long as they are run below 160 something celsius I think he said it was, thy are legit 20 amp batteries. No battery should ever be run that hot anyway.

    And you just hit on something. Susie hasn't been vaping that long.

    Everybody here who started out thinking that this was the only kind of vape they'd ever want and now have a zillion setups for a range of different styles, please raise your hand.

    I rest my case :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019 at 10:09 PM
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  3. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    Thats why we have multiple mods. Attys and bat types. Different set ups for different needs and wants. Well and we all just like buying new gear. Lol
     
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  4. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    well, i just went over to the mech sub forum.
    that cured me of wanting a mech.
    entirely too much maintenance involved.
    i don't need to find out i need a new vape anyway.
    i have 5 sigelei sobras n hope to just stay with them.
    my other one is just for cdb.
     
  5. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Nope. If there is a problem with the mod causing these batteries to be discharged continuously at 20 amps each, then the battery temperature will rise above 80 degrees Celsius so that's why you should stay at or below the CDR of 15 amps each... it's simply because the built-in safety protections of a regulated mod can fail, and can fail in such a way that the mod discharges batteries continuously, and also it's because the overheat protection of a regulated mod protects only the circuit board inside the mod, not the batteries inside the mod. If you need a 20 amp battery go for the LG HG2 instead, but be advised that this is only about the safety, not the performance of course.

    1/ the Sony VTC5A used at 20 amps outperforms the LG HG2 used at 20 amps, and, in addition to this,
    2/ the Sony VTC5A used at 20 amps ages slower so it's cheaper in the long run than the LG HG2 used at 20 amps, and, also in addition to this,
    3/ the Sony VTC5A used at 20 amps is a bit safer than the LG HG2 used at 20 amps (despite that both are within recommended safety limits), AND,
    4/ the Sony VTC5A isn't even the best performing 25 amp battery anymore (we have a new kid in town... it's called the Molicel P26A) so if you need anywhere close to 20 amps per battery you should probably just forget about the 3000mAh batteries excepting only maybe you don't have a better option than the LG HG2 available to you due to where you live, but even then you could decide instead
    5/ to go for a bigger mod that uses a bigger number of batteries.

    So there's 5 perfectly good reasons to not try to push the limits too far. The manufacturer's upper limit for the Samsung 30Q is 15 amps. That's already the upper limit... the upper limit is something you should try to stay away from, when the batteries being pushed close to their limit do not perform better than other battery choices the CDR of which significantly is higher. I mean, what's the whole point if the actual run time is shorter despite the mAh rating is higher? Too many people are confusing the mAh rating with the Wh rating, and they don't understand anything about the importance of the voltage sag of the batteries or about how that has a noticeable effect on which battery is the better peformer in a given use case scenario.
     
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  6. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Yes of course they all work fine at 20 amps. But only for a short while. ;)
     
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  7. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Whoever gave you that idea hasn't got a clue about mechs. A well designed, decent quality tube mech mod typically does not require a lot of maintenance at all. But there's a steep learning curve involved with battery safety on a mech, as it also includes understanding the mechanics of the mod, knowledge about safe coil builds, their stability, and not just about being able to apply Ohm's law. Another thing is that getting strong vape performance out of a mech setup may prove to be a bit of a hefty challenge at first, especially if you're not that big on technical skills. Clumsiness and lack of self-discipline or inability to learn and convert knowledge to logical thinking are pretty much incompatible with using a mech, both in terms of safety and performance level.
     
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  8. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    All true znd well said. I use my 20 amp bats at arround 9a. So ghey work amazing 4 me.
     
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  9. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I don't expect anybody to hang on my words, so you can be forgiven for not knowing that I have said earlier in this thread that it's not best to run a battery at or near it's CDR all the time. Especially when there are good ones available with a higher cdr.

    I also meant Fahrenheit :) Doing too many things at once.

    The driving point in the context of this thread is that Susie has plenty of batteries well suited to her needs.

    On another note, I have no problem believing she is perfectly capable of using mechs safely. I'm just not going to be the one to recommend it at this point in her learning.
     
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  10. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    I dont recomend any1 using a mech if they are asking what to not do or basic ohms law questions. Again its not that they are not capable of safe and enjoyable mech use. I just try to be a voice of reason so hopefully battery safety is taken seriously.
     
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  11. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    people keep talking about not puushing the limits on a battery.
    i wish someone would define pushing the limits, using exact numbers
     
  12. gopher_byrd

    gopher_byrd Cranky Old Fart VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    Don't use your battery in a way that it will need to put out more current (amps) than it's rated CDR (constant discharge rate). Using numbers, don't use a 20 amp battery in a way where it will need put out more than 20 amps.
     
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  13. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    goph, if that's all it is, using a 10 amp battery for low watts is fine, absent voltage sag.
     
  14. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    For example... i use 2 20 amp batteries in a regulated mod. At 30w and .4 ohms it is pushing just under 9amps. So it is within safe using range.
     
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  15. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    Its all just math with a mech to be sure you arent pushing more amps than the batts can safely put out.
     
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  16. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    So yes you can use a 10a bat so long as the mod is drawing less than the 10a. Your bat life will suck but its safe.
     
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  17. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    And here is the point of this part of this discussion. Why stress a 10 amp battery when a 15 or 20 amp battery is available?

    Who is going to get tired faster helping you carry furniture @susieqz ?

    A guy who can carry it, but it's really heavy for him? Or a guy who could carry more weight if he needed to?
    (another bad analogy?)
     
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  18. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    There is no such thing as "absent voltage sag" :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019 at 2:30 PM
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  19. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    nobody has responded to my question.
    at what % of capacity use are you stressing a battery?
    what % means pushing the limits?
     
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  20. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    I totally agree with using a bat with more amps. I was just being bluntly honest that it would b safe. Not that i agree with using a 10a bat.
     
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  21. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    If I'm understanding you correctly, there's not a way to express this easily in percentages. There are no formulas for evaluating EXACTLY how much runtime (capacity) you'll lose to degradation by running a given battery at or above it's rated cdr (continuous discharge rating).

    OR how much you might gain by using a 15 or 20 amp battery with a lower capacity rating, but not working it as hard.

    There are too many unknown variables involved with how we use them and charge them, not to mention battery grade and slight differences specimen to specimen of the same battery etc, to be precise.

    We just know that it's better to use one that is capable of a bit more than we need based on the overall principles and that really is enough.

    If I may be so bold. You will enjoy your vaping more if you accept that you aren't going to see the kind of airtight certainty you're looking for. :rolleyes:

    Your 30Qs probably are the best overall battery for your style of vaping.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019 at 7:44 PM
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  22. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Oh no, I was agreeing with you.
     
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  23. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    I knew u were
    I was clarifying my opinion in general.
    Even though i replied to your comment i wasn't directing it at you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019 at 5:20 PM
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  24. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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  25. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    ok, i'll go look at that again.
    i watched all of them, but my mind gets numb.
    thanks.

    i'm just trying to get everything right.
    that's easier to do when i have %s n stuff i can memorize. .
     
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  26. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Maybe netter to pick a coupla few and watch them over.several times?
     
  27. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    i suppose.
    this is turning into real work.
    i'll do it.
    i prize competency.
     
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  28. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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  29. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    haha!
    this was not the best time for me to watch this.
    i just finished a lecture about the sun acting up.
    all i could see is what happens if we get hit by one mild solar plasma ejection.
    hasn't happened since the 1860s, but now, bye bye power grid.
    for years....
     
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  30. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    That is one of the greatest documentaries I ever saw :)
     
  31. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    did you get to the carrington event of 1859?
    fried the telegraph network cause it was the only electric system around.
    kinda hoping that sorta hing doesn't happen in my lifetime, since we won't spend money to protect the grid.
     
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  32. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    If If you were a family member, which you're not, and if I weren't afraid of coming off the wrong way, which I am, I'd tell you you worry too much.

    But, since you're not and I am, I won't :rolleyes:
     
  33. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    i take the lectures i watch to heart , i suppose.

    here's something irritating.
    my new hobby is watching online lectures, for fun.
    if i enjoyed lectures when i was in school, i could have been top of the class.
    too late for that.

    i enjoy learning more now than then.
    kinda stupid.
     
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  34. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    It's not stupid. You're older and wiser :)

    Did you already get through the story of electricity?
     
  35. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    not yet, but i'll finish it today.
     
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  36. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I've been through it 3 times. I LOVE that kinda stuff.
     
  37. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    depressing to hear franklin never flew the kite with key in a thunderstorm.

    didn't know water could hold a charge either,
     
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  38. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    by the way, moch says store batteries at half charge.
    do you have any idea
    when i get my batteries, each one will be charged once every 8 days.
    think it matters , for 8 days?
     
  39. PoppaVic

    PoppaVic Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Batteries come pretty-well "uncharged".. But, I keep a stack of about 6 pairs charged and rotated as I swap them in the Vt133, Basium, etc. Doesn't seem to make any difference to me.
     
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  40. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    thanks, pop.
    it's easier to charge them ahead for when i need them in a week.
    might be longer if 30qs really last longer.
     
  41. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    There are no hard and fast numbers that either are safe or are unsafe to vape. To stay at or below the true CDR (true = as listed by Mooch in his battery test results pages and in both his recommended batteries table and his battery ratings and performance tables) of the battery you select for vaping is the only RECOMMENDED limit (recommended = what everyone should recommend to anyone who asks "how much is safe"). The Minding Your mAhs Ep3 video explains how to use the CDR number for calculating battery safety for regulated mods.

    Yes, if vaping at 35-40 watts, a regulated mod equipped with two Samsung 30Q batteries or with two Sony VTC6 batteries does give you more vaping time (when compared to equipping it with two Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA batteries or with two LG INR18650MJ1 batteries). That is, with the VTC6 slightly outperforming the 30Q also in addition to this.

    EDIT: If you always charge your batteries several days before you start vaping on them, they will age faster than really is necessary. So if it isn't too much hassle to you, you might want to consider not charging more batteries in advance than you need or think you might need, i.e., if it's all the same to you whether they are charged or not, then just don't put them on the charger.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019 at 12:29 PM
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  42. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    i have been using hg2 n vtc5a batteries. they have worked fine.
    ni didn't understand batteries but i knew i was supposed to use mooch's recommendations.
    i guess i got more amps but less mah than ideal for low watt vaping.
     
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  43. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Yeah, I actually have more 18650s than I'm using and need to discharge a few new pairs and store them for a while. All the pairs I've gotten from LIW come at between 3.5 and 3.7 volts.

    It's also worth noting that percentages of charge are measured between 2.5 and 4.2 volts. 2.5 (manufacturers can vary a tad) being dead and 4.2 being full. That can be confusing when somebody's mod is telling them that they're batteries are almost dead and they still have significant voltage left in them.

    Dead doesn't mean 0 volts.
     
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  44. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    To "store" batteries means not using them for a long period, typically more than a few weeks. Even if you don't use them they still age so it's best to try to avoid buying a lot of new batteries to stockpile them if you already know beforehand that you aren't going to be using them in a reasonably near future, yet, despite this, some companies stockpile them nevertheless because they want to ensure they will always (or almost) have access to the quantity they need, if or when they need.
     
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  45. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    That's true, but you seemed really concerned about safety which is why I kept you telling you they would "work: fine. :)

    NONSENSE!! If you're going to be depressed, save it for something more important.

    It WAS his idea though after all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019 at 2:23 PM
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  46. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    It's still best to not store them nevertheless. Instead, just rotate between them, and, don't charge more of them in advance than you think you might need, i.e. try to avoid charging any of them too long in advance (too long = longer than you think might prove to be necessary to still be able to satisfy all your vaping needs excepting of course if/when delaying the decision to put some extra batteries on the charger will be or might be giving you too much hassle due to whatever reason).
     
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  47. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    buying online forces you to have extra batteries.
    i only needed 4, but shipping eats you alive.
    so, i bot 8 to reduce the price/battery/
     
  48. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    I pull 2 full days off my 30q. And about a day and a half from hg2.
    And have them all in a set rotation as well.
    4 sets
     
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  49. Wb80

    Wb80 Silver Contributor

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    And honestly i find the 30q hit harder
     
  50. susieqz

    susieqz Bronze Contributor

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    what does ''hit harder'' mean?
     
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