Am i safe using 2x Samsung 25Rs in my Voopoo Drag mod?

[Teabag]

I recently decided to give quitting smoking another attempt, so i went and picked up a new setup to replace my old broken kangertech mini. I've been messing around with various vaping calculators to see what ranges i'm safe to vape at, and believe that based on my inputs i'm safe using the Samsung 25r batteries.

I couldn't push past 60w on my old mod, and feel comfortable vaping at higher wattages. I can't see me vaping below 0.25ohm, which i believe i'm safe running at around 100W. When using the Samsung batteries am i safe to run at higher wattage's and lower resistances if i choose to? i'm aware that they can pulse up to 35a, but is this safe to do?

Based on how long it took for me to charge one of these batteries, i'm probably going to pick up a back up pair anyway. If the Samsung's aren't up to the task, what would you recommend? i've heard alot of good things about the VTC5's and 30q's.

Any input is appreciated. Hopefully i can quit smoking for good this time.

 

[hellcatrydr]

Yes.

 

[Carambrda]

No. Lithium rechargeable batteries we use for vaping are not designed to be used outside of a battery pack so vaping on them is NOT safe. But we do it anyway because it is our own decision to do so, and we choose to accept a certain amount if risk we find acceptable. Unfortunately however, a lot of "experienced" vapers are not aware of this fact. All that we can offer at this point are safety guidelines, to be used for frame of reference. To new vapers, one part (!) of what we generally recommend is to not exceed the CDR. On a regulated mod, I find that staying substantially well below the CDR typically gives better vape performance anyway, due to how the board in the mod responds to the voltage behavior of the batteries. If the CDR of the battery is 20 amps, for example, then vaping at up to 60 watts per battery (so up to 120 watts if the regulated mod uses two of these batteries) is generally considered relatively safe enough. But it still depends. For example, if you chain vape at 120 watts on two 20 amp batteries in a regulated mod, then no, that is not (!) considered relatively safe enough. Not sure about you, but at the time when I had just come off cigarettes, I chain vaped like crazy as it was the only way for me to keep the cravings from coming back and stay off cigarettes. This is also an important part of the reason why I tell new vapers who want to vape around 100 watts─on a dual 18650 battery regulated mod─to stick with Sony VTC5A batteries. (Not VTC5 batteries, nor any other batteries that other people often recommend.) The VTC5A is a 25 amp 2500 mAh battery.

Here's another important reason why I recommend what I recommend. At that kind of wattage, you're not going to see a whole lot of extra runtime if going for 20 amp 3000 mAh batteries instead─such as the Samsung 30Q, for example─so the extra runtime at that kind of wattage is generally not worth the sacrifice in vape performance, especially not after you also factor in that the VTC5A will be stressed less (because it is a 25 amp battery) so the wear and tear caused on it will be smaller, and, if that still doesn't satisfy you enough, then just think about the fact that, in addition to that, the VTC5A actually is safer than the 30Q. Only if you vape substantially below 100 watts (like maybe, around 80 - 90 watts... maybe even lower) does it make better sense IMO to go for the Samsung 30Q instead─or the Sony VTC6, which slightly outperforms the Samsung 30Q. Finally, the 25R is just a cheapskate battery that used to be good, but that was years ago, and vaping has evolved profoundly since then so if you really think you're going to stand a better chance at staying off cigarettes by skimping on battery performance to save like only a few cents per day at best, then to be frank, I'm going to have to urge you to think again.

 

[Mattp169]

ok
so carambrda is giving you the safe answer because, theres this guy in the community who knows more about batteries then everyone else in the community. He has published data and made recommendations base doff his own testing and is now at risk of being sued by a battery manufacturer for what he has published and said.
But what carambrda wrote is 100% correct

quick explaination of battery safety only meant to be a general guide line
what makes batteries go boom is shorting out which happens from user error or damaged mods usually.
what the biggest concern is for most is venting or the internal stiff of the battery coming out and causing trouble.
what causes venting is the battery over heating
batteries get warm from use
what causes the heat up is amp draw
use the battery too much at too high of an amp draw and you have problems

what determines amp draw
well on your mod which is regulated the watt setting does not the coil
versus on a mech mod the coil determines the amp draw

so the math on a regulated mod is this

wattage set divided by the actual voltage of the battery divided by a efficiency rating

so lets say at 100 watts and fully charged batteries with 2 batteries

that is 100W/8.4V=11.90amps
but we must take into consideration the voltage sag of the mod form the button, chipset, wiring, 510 etc
so we divide that by 90% for most mods
so 11.90amps/90%=13.22 amps

now we run the calculation at the lowest voltage setting of the batteries which is usually 3V per cell so ^V on a 2 battery mod
so once again 100W/6V/90%
18.51 amps

so a 2 battery mod running at 100 watts draws between 13 and 19 amps on the batteries

at 150 watts however we get 150W/8.4V/90%=19.84amps and
150W/6V/90%= 27.77amps

now back to your batteries
the are rated at 20amp CDR so at 20 amps from full charge to discharge they should not heat up enough to vent. BUT anything is possible and they could, Murphy's :Law does apply

Now we can get into the discussion of pulsing versus continuous discharge etc etc,

Basically batteries are use at your own risk
You shouldnt push them over their CDR if their CDR is actually correct on their label which on a Sony,LG or Samsung battery and it is genuine, it usually is correct. Doing so involves some risk and you need to do a lot more research to understand said risk before doing so

 

[Carambrda]

^^ Here you can see manufacturers do NOT usually put correct ratings on their label... just click on the thumbnail and then zoom in on the table: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/b...ngs-picking-a-safe-battery-to-vape-with.7447/

 

[Teabag]

Thanks guys, you've cleared a lot up for me. I thought i heard somebody mention the resistance isn't taken into account when using regulated mods. It's nice to know I've got a little more wiggle room than I initially thought. I've been using steam engine and vape calc for the most part.

Can't ever see me going over 120W+, but i think i'll play it safe and go for the VTC5a's when i next do my online shop.
I'll make sure to keep it between 75 - 100 for now. But am i right assuming that i can vape at higher wattages with less risk,if i keep the batteries topped up?

 

[Mattp169]

well the more voltage or more fully charged your batteries are, the lower the amp draw on them in a regulated mod

 

[Teabag]

Ok, thats cool. I wont go too mad with the watts just to be safe. Is there much risk involved with the occasional reliance on the pulse rating? I know i definitely shouldn't chain vape at too high amps, but can i get away with it on occasion without too much risk?

 

[Carambrda]

Thanks guys, you've cleared a lot up for me. I thought i heard somebody mention the resistance isn't taken into account when using regulated mods. It's nice to know I've got a little more wiggle room than I initially thought. I've been using steam engine and vape calc for the most part.

Can't ever see me going over 120W+, but i think i'll play it safe and go for the VTC5a's when i next do my online shop.
I'll make sure to keep it between 75 - 100 for now. But am i right assuming that i can vape at higher wattages with less risk,if i keep the batteries topped up?

The resistance of the atomizer/coil isn't taken into account because the board inside the regulated mod uses a chip that calculates the amps it needs to draw from the batteries in order to arrive at the wattage that you set on the device. Watts equals volts multiplied by amps so, if the watts stay the same, then if the volts go down (i.e. due to the batteries getting discharged a little bit with every puff), the amps must go up accordingly─which is automatically taken care of by the board, as that is what the "regulated" in "regulated mod" factually implies.

Up to 120 watts with two 20 amp batteries in a regulated mod is still considered "safe enough", but the vape performance, the runtime, the life expectancy, and the final cost after you factor in said life expectancy, all are excellent reasons why a lot of people shouldn't keep staring at 20 amp batteries all the time... I dunno why people still keep staring at them even when the performance numbers totally indicate that they shouldn't do that. As for keeping the batteries topped up, no, doing that doesn't make them any safer.

The point is you need to make sure they don't overheat to dangerously high temperatures in the event that something goes wrong with the mod in such a way that the problem with the mod causes the batteries to start being drained continuously─and that they don't overheat to dangerously high temperatures under ANY type of circumstances at all, as best you can, i.e. without sacrificing all the convenience factors too much, like, the runtime of the batteries (i.e. how long it usually takes before you need to put them back on the charger). But I guess that what I'm saying is there exist other convenience factors other than the runtime. Too many people keep always forgetting this fact. There exists a sweet spot for every battery in every use case scenario, that, if you push the battery harder, the combination of all the convenience factors combined will start to decline despite that it is still "safe enough". The quality of the vape performance delivered by the mod is definitely one of those factors, and, that one is also linked to the risk of turning back to cigarettes IMO.

 

[Mattp169]

well the pulse rating on many batteries is WAY over rated.
now what will happen if you pulse ( say hold the button down for 5 seconds and release) a true 20 amp CDR battery at 30 amps??
well the battery is going to heat up faster then it is designed. is it going to immediately vent? NO
if you chain vape said battery at 30 amp you risk venting

look at the link posted above, there are no batteries except the sony VTC3 that actually has a CDR above 25 amps?

so if we do 200 watts at full charge on a 2 battery mod that should draw about 26 amps above the 25 amp cdr
and at 6V its over 33amps

Is that safe?
well considering the following
1. most people never vape at 200 watts sustained for very long
2. the mod has other protections like 10 second cutoff and an internal temperature cutoff for the circuitry
3. and the low voltage cutoff may actually be higher then 6V on some mods like 6.4V

mods are not just venting batteries left and right
so im not saying its safe but it can be done

but the big risk comes in when something goes wrong like
juice leaking into the internals causing protections to fail
battery getting stuck on and the timer cutoff does not kick in
mod in pocket and the battery being pushed on and off repeatedly and irregularly that the timer cutoff does not kick in so the mod is running nearly non stop
etc etc
then the amp draw is continuous and the battery's internal temp keeps rising and rising and eventually vents.

the other big risk is re wrapped batteries with false statements about amps on them
most rewraps are way over rated

-so if you want to be safe here are my suggestions
-if you vape over 120 watts regularly get a 3 cell or 4 cell mod
- if you only occasionally push your 2 battery mod over 120 watts be sure to give your battery time to cool off. its the constant amp draw that causes the battery's temperature to keep rising and eventually vent
-if you feel you are pushing your batteries hard - touch them, if they are getting to the point of being too hot to touch..eject them and let them cool down some place safe
-only use genuine sony,samsung or LG batteries bought from a reputable dealer like liionwholesale.com,illum.com and a few others
-never carry batteries loose in your pocket,purse,bag etc- this can cause hard shorts and things going BOOM. always keep your batteries in protective cases and keep the wraps replaced regularly when they are damaged
-never use a battery with damaged wraps, this could allow a short circuit and that causes a boom

we in the community have to be very careful as to what we say is and isnt safe with regulations possibly coming and people getting sued for their opinions.
using any battery comes with a risk
using a battery above its CDR increases that risk
you are asking the right questions
this is a good interview with mooch who knows what he is talking about that can give you a lot of info

 

[Mattp169]

The resistance of the atomizer/coil isn't taken into account because the board inside the regulated mod uses a chip that calculates the amps it needs to draw from the batteries in order to arrive at the wattage that you set on the device. Watts equals volts multiplied by amps so, if the watts stay the same, then if the volts go down (i.e. due to the batteries getting discharged a little bit with every puff), the amps must go up accordingly─which is automatically taken care of by the board, as that is what the "regulated" in "regulated mod" factually implies.

Up to 120 watts with two 20 amp batteries in a regulated mod is still considered "safe enough", but the vape performance, the runtime, the life expectancy, and the final cost after you factor in said life expectancy, all are excellent reasons why a lot of people shouldn't keep staring at 20 amp batteries all the time... I dunno why people still keep staring at them even when the performance numbers totally indicate that they shouldn't do that. As for keeping the batteries topped up, no, doing that doesn't make them any safer.

The point is you need to make sure they don't overheat to dangerously high temperatures in the event that something goes wrong with the mod in such a way that the problem with the mod causes the batteries to start being drained continuously─and that they don't overheat to dangerously high temperatures under ANY type of circumstances at all, as best you can, i.e. without sacrificing all the convenience factors too much, like, the runtime of the batteries (i.e. how long it usually takes before you need to put them back on the charger). But I guess that what I'm saying is there exist other convenience factors other than the runtime. Too many people keep always forgetting this fact. There exists a sweet spot for every battery in every use case scenario, that, if you push the battery harder, the combination of all the convenience factors combined will start to decline despite that it is still "safe enough". The quality of the vape performance delivered by the mod is definitely one of those factors, and, that one is also linked to the risk of turning back to cigarettes IMO.

i use 20 amp lg hg2s WHY? because the last time I bought batteries they were about the best available. There were too many fake sonys out at the time and lets be honest I vape in the 30-50W range on 2 battery mods. so a 20 amp battery is just fine for me.
May I get some slightly noticeable difference in the long run using VTC5As? maybe. but at the cost of $6ish a battery I can easily afford to replace sets when needed and the HG2s provide a performance level I am satisfied using.

Is the VTC5A probably the best 18650 given all factors on the market today? Probably. but that doesnt mean that other batteries that are 20amp CDR are now useless and should be replaced and discarded

 

[gbalkam]

First of all.. ignore these idiots that mention CDR in relation to a regulated mod. The batteries we use are 20A to 30A usually 20A for regulated mods. The mods front end controller sends current to the 2nd controller to reach the desired wattage. The mod has protection that limits the amp draw from the batteries on front end. We recommend Samsung, Sony, LG brands. Usually a 20A 3000mah is preferred, but 25Rs are also preferred. As long as you use a quality, brand name, high discharge battery, you are about as safe as you are going to get. It is more important to check your battery wraps after charging, before putting them into your mod. A torn wrapper can cause a hard short.
What you mainly need to realize is not to pay to much attention to anti-vaping media whores. Battery CDR mainly applies to mechanical mods, which have no protection. THIS is where the CDR comes into play. So as long as you use the 20A-30A high drain, brand name, tested and proven batteries, and inspect your batteries after every charge... you have no worries about your regulated mod. To be honest, a flashlight is more dangerous than a regulated mod. (since if the wrap is torn, and the battery vents, the flashlight has no vent holes to let the gas out safely) therefore the actually flashlight body becomes a pipe bomb. (speaking of course about those high intensity military style flashlights and not the ones that run off 2 D cells)

Also, the low battery cut off prevents your amp draw from reaching unsafe levels. Just another of many safety features in regulated mods.

Here is everything you need to know, how it works, why it works, etc.
http://blog.thevaporist.org/2015/12/29/regulated-mods/

By the way... I used the Samsung 25Rs when I bought my first mechanical, because they were the safest on the market at that time. I won't say what I was building at since this is a newbie section, but the 25Rs never gave me any problems. (I had a long conversation with Mooch on another forum, before I even purchased the mech) There is a lot more to batteries than CDR printed on the label.. Mooch has excellent tables and charts and graphs and tests available regarding stress testing and how each cell heats up under stress.

Sorry, but it is frustrating seeing the same people over and over posting the same misinformation regarding CDR and regulated mods. They are like puppies... they still insist on shitting on the floor no matter how many times you rub their nose in the facts.

 

[bobnat]

I use all three types of batteries the OP mentioned in my Drag. I've never gone over 60w and I've got a .22 Clapton on it. I'm going to crank it up to 100w just for shits and giggles. Going do it right now...hold on...ok, that wasn't so bad after all. A bit warm, to be sure, but flavorful using an RDA. I just put in fresh 25Rs and I'm still here.

 

[Mattp169]

First of all.. ignore these idiots that mention CDR in relation to a regulated mod. The batteries we use are 20A to 30A usually 20A for regulated mods. The mods front end controller sends current to the 2nd controller to reach the desired wattage. The mod has protection that limits the amp draw from the batteries on front end. We recommend Samsung, Sony, LG brands. Usually a 20A 3000mah is preferred, but 25Rs are also preferred. As long as you use a quality, brand name, high discharge battery, you are about as safe as you are going to get. It is more important to check your battery wraps after charging, before putting them into your mod. A torn wrapper can cause a hard short.
What you mainly need to realize is not to pay to much attention to anti-vaping media whores. Battery CDR mainly applies to mechanical mods, which have no protection. THIS is where the CDR comes into play. So as long as you use the 20A-30A high drain, brand name, tested and proven batteries, and inspect your batteries after every charge... you have no worries about your regulated mod. To be honest, a flashlight is more dangerous than a regulated mod. (since if the wrap is torn, and the battery vents, the flashlight has no vent holes to let the gas out safely) therefore the actually flashlight body becomes a pipe bomb. (speaking of course about those high intensity military style flashlights and not the ones that run off 2 D cells)

Also, the low battery cut off prevents your amp draw from reaching unsafe levels. Just another of many safety features in regulated mods.

Here is everything you need to know, how it works, why it works, etc.
http://blog.thevaporist.org/2015/12/29/regulated-mods/

By the way... I used the Samsung 25Rs when I bought my first mechanical, because they were the safest on the market at that time. I won't say what I was building at since this is a newbie section, but the 25Rs never gave me any problems. (I had a long conversation with Mooch on another forum, before I even purchased the mech) There is a lot more to batteries than CDR printed on the label.. Mooch has excellent tables and charts and graphs and tests available regarding stress testing and how each cell heats up under stress.

Sorry, but it is frustrating seeing the same people over and over posting the same misinformation regarding CDR and regulated mods. They are like puppies... they still insist on shitting on the floor no matter how many times you rub their nose in the facts.

We are not idiots. please have some respect. Its the holiday season after all.
the mod has no idea what the battery is and its limits so its impossible to program it to only draw a safe amount of amps.
i have advocated everything you stated , so we agree on most things
but when shit goes wrong and all those protections fail that is when you can have issues even using good quality batteries
and user error must be taken in to account. run even VTC5As improperly in any regulated mod by doing stupid shit and you can make them vent.
so saying you have NO WORRIES is not true. Under normal circumstances for most people you are very unlikely to vent a good quality 20-30amp battery. But it can happen.
at low battery cutoff of even 6.4V on a 2 cell mod set at 200 watts you are drawing over 34 amps. while the 10 second cutoff will more then likely kick in before a good 20amp battery vents, it is not the low voltage cutoff alone stopping the batteries from venting

look I agree with you that 99% of people will not do stuff that will have the right circumstances line up to cause a good battery to vent in most regulated mods. But understanding the actual risk and what could happen if everything goes wrong is important for beginners, so just in case shit goes sideways they know what causes shit to go sideways and what to do. Mods fail, mods are damaged, accidents happen. life just happens. You and I can't predict the future or know what the OP is going to do. Best I can do is good information out that is correct. Reread your post and mine. they contain alot of the same information. Can't we all just get along

 

[Carambrda]

well the pulse rating on many batteries is WAY over rated.
now what will happen if you pulse ( say hold the button down for 5 seconds and release) a true 20 amp CDR battery at 30 amps??
well the battery is going to heat up faster then it is designed. is it going to immediately vent? NO
if you chain vape said battery at 30 amp you risk venting

If you vape said battery at 0.000001 amp you also risk venting. The risk will be a lot smaller, though...

look at the link posted above, there are no batteries except the sony VTC3 that actually has a CDR above 25 amps?

Yes there are other 18650 batteries that have a CDR above 25 amps. They are the LG HB2, HB4, HB6, and the Vapcell Black... but their runtime is too shitty for me to even consider vaping on them.

so if we do 200 watts at full charge on a 2 battery mod that should draw about 26 amps above the 25 amp cdr
and at 6V its over 33amps

200 / 6 / 0.9 = only 37 so only 12 amps above the 25 amp CDR, not 33 amps. Further, the amps that the board in a regulated mod can draw from the batteries is limited by design, as well as is limited by the voltage sag of the batteries. For example, my Reuleaux RX300 uses 4 batteries, and is capable to output 400 watts, but the board inside the mod is limited to 50 amps, and you sure as fuck aren't going to get 400 watts if the batteries are running low... the mod will simply display the "Weak Battery" message and the power output will be much, MUCH lower than those 400 watts. This isn't to say the board, the safety features therein, might never ever fail.

Is that safe?

Nope... but if you walk in the woods at night and then suddenly a billiards table falls out of a tree, you're dead too. Get it? lol

well considering the following
1. most people never vape at 200 watts sustained for very long
2. the mod has other protections like 10 second cutoff and an internal temperature cutoff for the circuitry
3. and the low voltage cutoff may actually be higher then 6V on some mods like 6.4V

mods are not just venting batteries left and right
so im not saying its safe but it can be done

The sky is the limit, man!

but the big risk comes in when something goes wrong like
juice leaking into the internals causing protections to fail
battery getting stuck on and the timer cutoff does not kick in
mod in pocket and the battery being pushed on and off repeatedly and irregularly that the timer cutoff does not kick in so the mod is running nearly non stop
etc etc

then the amp draw is continuous and the battery's internal temp keeps rising and rising and eventually vents.

the other big risk is re wrapped batteries with false statements about amps on them
most rewraps are way over rated

The biggest problem with rewraps is the manufacturer of the rewrap might change the battery that's under the wrap. We can see what the real ratings were at the time when Mooch tested them, but tomorrow they might change.

-so if you want to be safe here are my suggestions
-if you vape over 120 watts regularly get a 3 cell or 4 cell mod
- if you only occasionally push your 2 battery mod over 120 watts be sure to give your battery time to cool off. its the constant amp draw that causes the battery's temperature to keep rising and eventually vent
-if you feel you are pushing your batteries hard - touch them, if they are getting to the point of being too hot to touch..eject them and let them cool down some place safe

If you can't wrap the palm of your hand tight around the battery and hold it like that for 30 seconds because of how hot it is, then it is too fucking hot. Above 45°C (113°F) is where the aging of the battery starts to go faster than normal.

-only use genuine sony,samsung or LG batteries bought from a reputable dealer like liionwholesale.com,illum.com and a few others
-never carry batteries loose in your pocket,purse,bag etc- this can cause hard shorts and things going BOOM. always keep your batteries in protective cases and keep the wraps replaced regularly when they are damaged
-never use a battery with damaged wraps, this could allow a short circuit and that causes a boom

we in the community have to be very careful as to what we say is and isnt safe with regulations possibly coming and people getting sued for their opinions.
using any battery comes with a risk
using a battery above its CDR increases that risk

Using a battery above ANY number of amps also increases that risk. Technically there aren't any hard numbers, but Mooch also said the CDR is all he will ever recommend so let's remain perfectly clear on this.

you are asking the right questions
this is a good interview with mooch who knows what he is talking about that can give you a lot of info

 

[gbalkam]

We are not idiots. please have some respect. Its the holiday season after all.
the mod has no idea what the battery is and its limits so its impossible to program it to only draw a safe amount of amps.
i have advocated everything you stated , so we agree on most things
but when shit goes wrong and all those protections fail that is when you can have issues even using good quality batteries
and user error must be taken in to account. run even VTC5As improperly in any regulated mod by doing stupid shit and you can make them vent.
so saying you have NO WORRIES is not true. Under normal circumstances for most people you are very unlikely to vent a good quality 20-30amp battery. But it can happen.
at low battery cutoff of even 6.4V on a 2 cell mod set at 200 watts you are drawing over 34 amps.


while the 10 second cutoff will more then likely kick in before a good 20amp battery vents, it is not the low voltage cutoff alone stopping the batteries from venting

look I agree with you that 99% of people will not do stuff that will have the right circumstances line up to cause a good battery to vent in most regulated mods. But understanding the actual risk and what could happen if everything goes wrong is important for beginners, so just in case shit goes sideways they know what causes shit to go sideways and what to do. Mods fail, mods are damaged, accidents happen. life just happens. You and I can't predict the future or know what the OP is going to do. Best I can do is good information out that is correct. Reread your post and mine. they contain alot of the same information. Can't we all just get along

yeah, true, most aren't idiots. I don't mind questions from new users. I'll spend hours researching to find the answers on their behalf. But OMG to see CDR posted again regarding regulated mods.. just makes me want to choke somebody.
Now of course, regulated mods are not 100% safe, but in the rare instances that one might fail, the CDR has nothing to do with it. IF anything, the issue is with the actual physical condition of the cell. We talk about the short protection could fail, or auto shut off could fail, but the primary reason any cell might fail, is poor physical battery condition. That is about the only thing manufacturers can't protect against... user stupidity. If the wrapper is damaged replace it or the battery. Now only 1 regulated box has gone melt down that I know of, undetermined reason, but of all the possible reasons, damaged wrapper is top on the list. (owner was in ECF )

at low battery cutoff of even 6.4V on a 2 cell mod set at 200 watts you are drawing over 34 amps.

What you forgot here... is if the cell pulls more than its limit, it automatically goes into "low battery" status and stops working.
Mine goes 1 step further, and lowers the wattage to be within limits of the remaining battery on next hit.

I am sure there is probably some way that some ingenious idiot can think of to force a regulated mod to vent.. I can't think of any without altering the actual mod or deliberately damaging the battery... but somewhere, someplace, I am sure 1 such "genius" is working on it. lol.

The main thing we need to stress is to use only brand name batteries, that are high discharge rated, made by reputable companies, such as... you guessed it.. samsung, sony, lg. They do not exaggerate their battery specs. They don't print a false "pulse rating" to mislead consumers. Without giving to much advanced information, I know from personal research that samsung 25r cells will pulse well above 22A, and even at 30A, although 30A is pretty close to the maximum rate these cells will handle while staying below SAFE temperatures. I would have to actually look this up again to confirm, so say 30A to err on the side of caution. This will cause the cell to heat and will damage the cell, but will not raise cell temp above 100C (101 actually) which is considered the max limit to push a cell during testing for safety.

Here are the test results from our good buddy Mooch from EFC (and other forums including this one.. *lol yes mooch lives here too*)
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...ch-retest-results-a-great-20a-battery.706485/

These tables are a comparison ONLY. For information. They are NOT a go ahead to use any amp limit. The higher your amp draw, the greater your risk. In other words.. if something does happen you need to know how to react to control the issue. This applies at any amp draw. For example... have a predetermined place to dump your batteries and/or mod in case of emergency. Metal sinks or toilets work as well as concrete sidewalks, lawns, cat litter box.. etc..

We should also consider, that manufacturers currently do not recommend any batteries as safe for vaping, it is through testing done by Mooch and others that we determine what cells to use to minimize risks. The above table is specific ONLY to Samsung 25R cells and users would have to look up results every time they used a different battery. LG HE2 for example.. totally different battery and test results. The above table does not really apply to regulated mods, but is only an example of how the cell will perform within certain conditions. These conditions are set to "safe" limits by regulated mods.

So sorry all for the idiot comment.. i was banging my head on the desk at the time... lol..

 

[gbalkam]

My current mod uses 2x 20A 3000mah lg browns (he2?) Im to lazy to look again. lol. BUT i sometimes vape at the full 230W limit of the mod. This is only for hobby purposes. Not my usual vaping. For example.. my daily vaping is 85 to 135w, but a cloud build, I go to the full 230w for a short time with rests between hits... (otherwise, i would pass out from even the 3mg nic juice i use...lol) And again, I make sure to use proper brand name, undamaged batteries. I recommend when placing an order for wire, you add a few battery wrappers. They are like 12 cents each, and good to have on hand just in case you need to repair a damaged wrapper.

 

[Mattp169]

yeah, true, most aren't idiots. I don't mind questions from new users. I'll spend hours researching to find the answers on their behalf. But OMG to see CDR posted again regarding regulated mods.. just makes me want to choke somebody.
Now of course, regulated mods are not 100% safe, but in the rare instances that one might fail, the CDR has nothing to do with it. IF anything, the issue is with the actual physical condition of the cell. We talk about the short protection could fail, or auto shut off could fail, but the primary reason any cell might fail, is poor physical battery condition. That is about the only thing manufacturers can't protect against... user stupidity. If the wrapper is damaged replace it or the battery. Now only 1 regulated box has gone melt down that I know of, undetermined reason, but of all the possible reasons, damaged wrapper is top on the list. (owner was in ECF )


What you forgot here... is if the cell pulls more than its limit, it automatically goes into "low battery" status and stops working.
Mine goes 1 step further, and lowers the wattage to be within limits of the remaining battery on next hit.

I am sure there is probably some way that some ingenious idiot can think of to force a regulated mod to vent.. I can't think of any without altering the actual mod or deliberately damaging the battery... but somewhere, someplace, I am sure 1 such "genius" is working on it. lol.

The main thing we need to stress is to use only brand name batteries, that are high discharge rated, made by reputable companies, such as... you guessed it.. samsung, sony, lg. They do not exaggerate their battery specs. They don't print a false "pulse rating" to mislead consumers. Without giving to much advanced information, I know from personal research that samsung 25r cells will pulse well above 22A, and even at 30A, although 30A is pretty close to the maximum rate these cells will handle while staying below SAFE temperatures. I would have to actually look this up again to confirm, so say 30A to err on the side of caution. This will cause the cell to heat and will damage the cell, but will not raise cell temp above 100C (101 actually) which is considered the max limit to push a cell during testing for safety.

Here are the test results from our good buddy Mooch from EFC (and other forums including this one.. *lol yes mooch lives here too*)
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...ch-retest-results-a-great-20a-battery.706485/

These tables are a comparison ONLY. For information. They are NOT a go ahead to use any amp limit. The higher your amp draw, the greater your risk. In other words.. if something does happen you need to know how to react to control the issue. This applies at any amp draw. For example... have a predetermined place to dump your batteries and/or mod in case of emergency. Metal sinks or toilets work as well as concrete sidewalks, lawns, cat litter box.. etc..

We should also consider, that manufacturers currently do not recommend any batteries as safe for vaping, it is through testing done by Mooch and others that we determine what cells to use to minimize risks. The above table is specific ONLY to Samsung 25R cells and users would have to look up results every time they used a different battery. LG HE2 for example.. totally different battery and test results. The above table does not really apply to regulated mods, but is only an example of how the cell will perform within certain conditions. These conditions are set to "safe" limits by regulated mods.

So sorry all for the idiot comment.. i was banging my head on the desk at the time... lol..

no worries
but how can one not use CDR in a discussion of regulated mods
you left the CDR out when you said 20-30amp batteries but I would assume you mean batteries with a 20-30amp CDR not pulse

and I almost made some 25r vent in a ipv 3li ejected them before they did but they did burn my hand while doing so. Im surprised they didnt vent. HOW?? exactly as I said about putting it in your pocket and the fire button being pressed on and off just right for the right length of time
now do I know if I hadn't had caught it when I did that the batteries would vent?? NO but I feel if they would have gotten much more heat they would have vented. As hot as they were and the burn blister I got on my finger from them Im shocked they didn't.

If we could just get rid of these damn rewraps, half the problem is gone with batteries.
Then we just have to say buy 20-30amp batteries for regulated mods
Then the other half is trusting the manufacturer's to build the boards correctly. In cases like DNA and YIHI And FSK I have no worries, but wisemec, smok and others I do not trust as much

 

[Mattp169]

My current mod uses 2x 20A 3000mah lg browns (he2?) Im to lazy to look again. lol. BUT i sometimes vape at the full 230W limit of the mod. This is only for hobby purposes. Not my usual vaping. For example.. my daily vaping is 85 to 135w, but a cloud build, I go to the full 230w for a short time with rests between hits... (otherwise, i would pass out from even the 3mg nic juice i use...lol) And again, I make sure to use proper brand name, undamaged batteries. I recommend when placing an order for wire, you add a few battery wrappers. They are like 12 cents each, and good to have on hand just in case you need to repair a damaged wrapper.

I bought an assortment or wraps of amazon for like $8 for 500 or so and they come in handy

 

[gbalkam]

CDR out when you said 20-30amp batteries but I would assume you mean batteries with a 20-30amp CDR not pulse

True.. sorry.. I never consider a pulse rating, since there is no such thing. I may as well say they are recommended by Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
The 25Rs that heated on you... was the wrapper damaged? Some pin holes are hard to see. Usually it is a tear at the top near the insulator ring that causes issues, although anywhere on the cell can be dangerous in the wrong circumstances.

The thing about rewrapped batteries.. aside from some being fakes, and some being grossly exaggerated, is that even under the very best circumstances, these are factory 2nds. In other words.. they have already FAILED quality control tests done by the manufacturer. Now they might be fine for laptops, or flashlights.. but I wouldn't put one up to my face for the sake of saving a dollar or two.

 

[gbalkam]

I bought an assortment or wraps of amazon for like $8 for 500 or so and they come in handy

and very nice to have right there when you need one!

 

[PhatClouts]

currently have a gx350 with a freemax fireluke. where do i need to upgrade the blow even more clouds??? what tank is better than the one i have. I need help ASAP. i do not want to do an RDA

 

[Mattp169]

and very nice to have right there when you need one!

and in a nice case as well
I say CDR becuase thast about the only measurement there is on a battery that I know of. if theres a better term tell me. I just know myself that i always thought ohms law applied on regulated mods. took me forever to get why it didnt. so when I see newbs ask about is my battery safe on my reg mod. I like to explain how regulated mods calculate amp draw and that should also explain why you need 20-30amp CDR batteries
i often recommend if you are goingto be vaping regularly above 120-150 get a 3 cell mod its just safer in general to pull that wattage from 3 cells in my opinion, but i have cranked mods up to 200+ with 2 cells and Im still here.
I know what is safe for the most part because I have had it drilled into my head by guys like you and others here. I learned bits of what i know at a time. newbs need time to swallow it all and get it in t here. so I tend to play it safe and err on the side of caution. let them learn a bit at a time and realize,, "oh its not really that bad to turn my ipv mod all the way up and blow hot clouds of magma with my 25rs.

as to my 25rs I cant remember back that far if they may have had a tear, MAYBE. they were one of my first set of batteries, pretty sure I still have them and use them regularly after 3 of 4 years of regular use and multiple rewraps

 

[gbalkam]

and in a nice case as well
I say CDR becuase thast about the only measurement there is on a battery that I know of. if theres a better term tell me. I just know myself that i always thought ohms law applied on regulated mods. took me forever to get why it didnt. so when I see newbs ask about is my battery safe on my reg mod. I like to explain how regulated mods calculate amp draw and that should also explain why you need 20-30amp CDR batteries
i often recommend if you are goingto be vaping regularly above 120-150 get a 3 cell mod its just safer in general to pull that wattage from 3 cells in my opinion, but i have cranked mods up to 200+ with 2 cells and Im still here.
I know what is safe for the most part because I have had it drilled into my head by guys like you and others here. I learned bits of what i know at a time. newbs need time to swallow it all and get it in t here. so I tend to play it safe and err on the side of caution. let them learn a bit at a time and realize,, "oh its not really that bad to turn my ipv mod all the way up and blow hot clouds of magma with my 25rs.

as to my 25rs I cant remember back that far if they may have had a tear, MAYBE. they were one of my first set of batteries, pretty sure I still have them and use them regularly after 3 of 4 years of regular use and multiple rewraps

I think what most new people are asking is "Are these batteries ok to use in this mod safely" with safely being defined as being "as safe as possible"
I read some where, that regulated mods might have an issue at a rate of 1 in 10 million. I have also found that the number is even lower than this... so if you figure 99.99999% safe is safe enough... then yeah, we consider those to be safe.

CDR means exactly this... the amount of current you can draw on a cell from fully charged to fully discharged, without the cell exceeding a safe temperature. (usually 70C or lower) which means, the cell will not heat up to a point that it could vent.

 

[gbalkam]

currently have a gx350 with a freemax fireluke. where do i need to upgrade the blow even more clouds??? what tank is better than the one i have. I need help ASAP. i do not want to do an RDA

baby beast, big bb beast, cloud beast and ijoy rdta combo will give decent clouds. All have tanks. Main thing to remember.. if you want huge clouds, you have to use an rda that is designed to make huge clouds. Example.. Tsunami is great for flavor with some decent clouds.. but a mutationX v4 is a cloud RDA.. no tank can touch it.

 

[Carambrda]

no worries
but how can one not use CDR in a discussion of regulated mods

One can't. The CDR is all that matters now, as the "other" rating recently got scrapped by Mooch due to too many abuses.
http://vapingunderground.com/thread...es-are-not-a-number-to-use-for-vaping.377455/

you left the CDR out when you said 20-30amp batteries but I would assume you mean batteries with a 20-30amp CDR not pulse

That's your proof he really doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. He just keeps going on and on and on like that, and he does it about other technical discussion subjects other than battery safety as well.

and I almost made some 25r vent in a ipv 3li ejected them before they did but they did burn my hand while doing so. Im surprised they didnt vent. HOW?? exactly as I said about putting it in your pocket and the fire button being pressed on and off just right for the right length of time
now do I know if I hadn't had caught it when I did that the batteries would vent?? NO but I feel if they would have gotten much more heat they would have vented. As hot as they were and the burn blister I got on my finger from them Im shocked they didn't.

Mooch himself wrote that the 25R appears to be less easily damaged at high temperatures... in fact it's written on his test page for the 25R. But you know as well as I do there is no good reason to buy the 25R anymore these days, because the other fact is Mooch already explained why... in the video you linked up thread─so this is more proof the guy you're talking to is simply just clueless about batteries. Like I said he just keeps coming back at you with his sad nonsense until you tell him directly to go talk to his wall instead.

If we could just get rid of these damn rewraps, half the problem is gone with batteries.

In that same video you linked, Mooch explained why those damn rewraps can actually be a good thing... navigate to the part where he says the Molicel 5-legged 20700 would not be available to us if it hadn't been for companies like Ijoy. Sure, they [Ijoy] also have a 4-legged 20700 now, and that one is a very far distance away from being a great battery, but to someone who can count the legs and who can count to 5, that still doesn't change the fact the 5-legged one does have its merits.

Then we just have to say buy 20-30amp batteries for regulated mods

No, to people like him we just have to be 150 percent persistent and say fuck you you fucking fuck and fuck all your fucking friends too. Internet 101.

Then the other half is trusting the manufacturer's to build the boards correctly. In cases like DNA and YIHI And FSK I have no worries, but wisemec, smok and others I do not trust as much

Generally I wouldn't trust ANY board, regardless of who makes it. But that doesn't stop me from using my RX300, because I happen to know that my VTC5A batteries are still relatively safe enough in it, and like I already explained up thread the point is to not sacrifice convenience factors too much in exchange for genuine paranoia so I'm not going to give up the power curves feature of ArcticFox... at least not until Easter coincides with Christmas I'm not.

 

[gbalkam]

Like I said he just keeps coming back at you with his sad nonsense

And that is because, with some people, you not only have to show why, show the math, show how it actually does work, but you have to rub their nose in it while sitting on the back of their head.. and they still don't get it.

And as I previously stated, since we ONLY consider CDR when speaking of batteries, saying 20A does not require you to also specify CDR. Pulse rating does not exist. It is a non relative term. Who knows what the battery was pulsed at, for how long, what temperature it reached. In other words.. there is no set standard for a pulse rating, therefore we do not even consider them. A battery will pulse at whatever you tell it to by the resistance of the coil you use. Long and short, pulse ratings are a false sales gimmick, and as such, you should never purchase batteries with a pulse limit printed. The vendor is trying to trick you into purchasing their cells.. how can you trust any of their other claims?

As also previously stated, the CDR is the amp draw on a battery from fully charged to fully drained, that will not cause the battery to heat to an unsafe level. In other words, consider a mechanical mod.. with a 20A CDR and a 0.21 ohm coil. IF the fire button sticks, the battery will fire until fully discharged without heating to an unsafe level. (I have already done the math, the amp draw at 0.21 ohm is 20A)

Now in this case, since you one person spouting on about CDR in regulated mods without offering any verification and another saying CDR does not apply since the mod handles the amp draw.. is to actually look up for yourself HOW regulated mods actually work.

 

[Carambrda]

And that is because, with some people, you not only have to show why, show the math, show how it actually does work, but you have to rub their nose in it while sitting on the back of their head.. and they still don't get it.

And as I previously stated, since we ONLY consider CDR when speaking of batteries, saying 20A does not require you to also specify CDR. Pulse rating does not exist. It is a non relative term. Who knows what the battery was pulsed at, for how long, what temperature it reached. In other words.. there is no set standard for a pulse rating, therefore we do not even consider them. A battery will pulse at whatever you tell it to by the resistance of the coil you use. Long and short, pulse ratings are a false sales gimmick, and as such, you should never purchase batteries with a pulse limit printed. The vendor is trying to trick you into purchasing their cells.. how can you trust any of their other claims?

As also previously stated, the CDR is the amp draw on a battery from fully charged to fully drained, that will not cause the battery to heat to an unsafe level. In other words, consider a mechanical mod.. with a 20A CDR and a 0.21 ohm coil. IF the fire button sticks, the battery will fire until fully discharged without heating to an unsafe level. (I have already done the math, the amp draw at 0.21 ohm is 20A)

Now in this case, since you one person spouting on about CDR in regulated mods without offering any verification and another saying CDR does not apply since the mod handles the amp draw.. is to actually look up for yourself HOW regulated mods actually work.

I have rubbed your nose in it, and I have done so multiple times in fact. But you still refuse to get it, and so I didn't bother to read the rest of your reply.