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Another Steeping Thread

zeeter

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Disclosure: For the purpose of this post I am referring to what we call "steeping" as "aging." For accuracy's sake that is what we are doing. The process is identical to that of aging wine. We don't steep wine, we age it. Continue to call it steeping all you want, however it is important to make that distinction for the purpose of this post since what we are doing is completely different than steeping.

Unless you are mixing a 100% PG e-liquid it needs to be aged. It doesn't matter if it's a fruit flavor or custard. There are two reasons for this.

The first reason is the viscosity of each chemical. VG is heavier and will settle on the bottom. If you shake it you can see the layers, or ribbons, in the bottle. As long as those layers exist the e-liquid is not aged. If you use an RDA you might not have a problem. Just shake it and add it as the RDA does not have much of a reservoir. On the other hand, if you have an RTA the PG and VG will separate within the tank.

The second reason for aging is that PG and VG both belong to the alcohol family. You won't get drunk off of them so don't try mixing a PG and Coke cocktail. But like wine they need to age. One reason you age wine is so that the alcohol in that wine either evaporates or bonds with the other ingredients. This cannot be done by shaking. In fact, shaking the mix increases the aging time. More on that later.

Suppose you drank something close to pure ethanol, the active chemical in most alcohols, and without flavoring. It tastes horrible. Wine on day 1 tastes horrible because the natural alcohol in the wine is too prominent. The same concept exists for e-liquid. Until that alcohol evaporates or bonds it will be more prominent in the flavor. The alcohol needs to rise to the top and evaporate. When you shake the bottle it mixes the alcohol back into the mixture and prolongs the process. The only way to remove the alcohol is to let it sit with the cap off without shaking it.

Using a fruit flavor vs a custard flavor has nothing to do with this process. It is the PG and VG that need the alcohol removed. My belief is that some people make the fruit flavor so prominent in their mixture that it simply overpowers the alcohol flavor, thus prolonging the shake and vape myth. While this may be an effective way to prevent the need of steeping it also wastes a lot of flavoring.

Since the VG goes to the bottom and the PG to the top, and since almost all flavorings are PG based, your flavor will settle at the top. Thus, your fruit flavor may taste great because your 70/30 mixture is more like 30/70. When you get to the bottom of the bottle it most likely won't taste so great because it's more VG than PG with a hint of flavor. You would not stick your coffee cup under the coffee maker as soon as it starts as you're getting the strongest coffee. Then the rest of the pot is ruined by the strongest part of it being removed. Same is true in this instance. Your first few vapes may be great because you're getting all flavor, but the rest of the mix is diluted.

VG tends to adhere more to the coils in a mod, thus reducing their lifespan. Allowing the VG to chemically bond with the PG will reduce this effect.

Lastly, do not use heat to age your e-liquid. By doing so you are changing the chemical composition of the ingredients. Some may have had luck in using heat, but they most likely have adjusted their recipes to compensate for the chemical change that occurs during the process. Aging in a warm cupboard is not the same as applying heat to the liquid.

In summary, shaking a bottle will not create the e-liquid compound. It may mix the ingredients well enough for a few vapes but the ingredients will again separate. The only effective way to create the compound is through aging.

Edit:
1. Took about the part where I suggest we move to calling it aging rather than steeping.
2. Took out the part about drinking pure alcohol making someone blind. This is not necessarily true of ethanol, but is true of methanol. Since PG and VG do not have methanol that tongue in cheek remark is being taken too literally.
 
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jwill

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Since steeping is what everyone already calls it, why try to reinvent the wheel? We use a lot of made up terms and words in the vape world. Look at some of the shit used as common terminology for coil building. They might as well be hieroglyphs.

The sky is only considered to be blue, because enough people collectively agreed at some point in time to call it blue. It could have easily have been called bumbleplot if someone else had their way.

There are a lot of things wrong with your statement on distilled spirits. Probably should research that a little more. Straight shine taste awesome and will not make you blind. You are more likely to die from alcohol poisoning and more likely to go blind from sun damage.
 

zeeter

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Since steeping is what everyone already calls it, why try to reinvent the wheel? We use a lot of made up terms and words in the vape world. Look at some of the shit used as common terminology for coil building. They might as well be hieroglyphs.

The sky is only considered to be blue, because enough people collectively agreed at some point in time to call it blue. It could have easily have been called bumbleplot if someone else had their way.

There are a lot of things wrong with your statement on distilled spirits. Probably should research that a little more. Straight shine taste awesome and will not make you blind. You are more likely to die from alcohol poisoning and more likely to go blind from sun damage.

Try some research of your own. Moonshine is not pure alcohol. We're talking ethanol here. Stop trying to nitpick certain parts of a thread (wrongly) while ignoring the overall subject.
 

jwill

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I'm not nitpicking dude. Think you are taking me the wrong way. For most people the purest alcohol that would be considered drinkable + obtainable is distilled grain alcohol (Can go to 190 proof, pure ethanol is 200). Literal pure reagent grade ethanol is more likely to kill you from one of the denaturing compounds to keep it from being human consumable and taxed as such, Methanol is most common these days and what causes people to go blind (10ml for a standard human) by rupturing the fine capillaries in the eye and the process of metabolism , death can be experienced at 25ml. I think only labs can buy absolute alcohol, which can actually be consumed.
 
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zeeter

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I'm not nitpicking dude. Think you are taking me the wrong way. For most people the purest alcohol that would be considered drinkable + obtainable is distilled grain alcohol (Can go to 190 proof, pure ethanol is 200). Literal pure reagent grade ethanol is more likely to kill you from one of the denaturing compounds to keep it from being human consumable and taxed as such, Methanol is most common these days and what causes people to go blind (10ml for a standard human) by rupturing the fine capillaries in the eye, death can be experienced at 25ml. I think only labs can buy absolute alcohol, which can actually be consumed.

Ok, but that is not the point my thread is trying to make. Drinkable and enjoyable drink are two different things. Most people do not drink straight grain alcohol because it doesn't taste good and is too strong. Remember, I said MOST people.

The point is that we want to remove the alcohol from the e-liquid during the aging process just like we do with wine, where the only alcohol left is that which binds to the remaining molecules. The post has nothing to do with different types of moonshine or grain alcohol or ethanol or anything like that.
 

jwill

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My comments are two fold and I think you are still taking me the wrong way. I am not being combative so please do not take me as such for the comments provided.

1. I was merely pointing out an inaccuracy in your statement about going blind from pure alcohol. It is factually incorrect.
2. The terminology used is irrelevant. The community has embraced "steeping" regardless of the process that enables the consumption of the finished product. Most people who vape are not scientist nor have a background in science, they become "vape scientist" and electricians of a sort in order to successfully vape. The vape world could have just as easily embraced ageing or mixing or something else. As it happens, steeping is what stuck.
 

zeeter

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My comments are two fold and I think you are still taking me the wrong way. I am not being combative so please do not take me as such for the comments provided.

1. I was merely pointing out an inaccuracy in your statement about going blind from pure alcohol. It is factually incorrect.
2. The terminology used is irrelevant. The community has embraced "steeping" regardless of the process that enables the consumption of the finished product. Most people who vape are not scientist nor have a background in science, they become "vape scientist" and electricians of a sort in order to successfully vape. The vape world could have just as easily embraced ageing or mixing or something else. As it happens, steeping is what stuck.

1. You're right. I was making that comment tongue in cheek. There are some types of alcohols that are not meant for human consumption that will make someone go blind which was the basis of my tongue in cheek comment.

2. That was just two or three sentences and was completely irrelevant to the thread. If you disagree with that then fine. The point of that paragraph was to add credibility to the entire thread and show that I'm not just making this stuff up. I did a lot of research for this. I don't care what the community calls it, but we should know that when we are aging something it is not called steeping from a scientific standpoint.
 

zeeter

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1. I was merely pointing out an inaccuracy in your statement about going blind from pure alcohol. It is factually incorrect.

Methanol is the one I was thinking of for blindness but couldn't remember it. We had an alcoholic on the ship I was stationed on in the Coast Guard. Actually we had quite a few alcoholics. But this one guy was so hard up for a drink that he drank some methyl alcohol and went blind.
 

Just Frank

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In summary, shaking a bottle will not create the e-liquid compound. It may mix the ingredients well enough for a few vapes but the ingredients will again separate.
What? They do not. I know what you mean by VG being heavier. I add it last and it sinks to the bottom pushing everything else upward. But when I shake it well, the mixture doesn't seperate.
 

zeeter

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What? They do not. I know what you mean by VG being heavier. I add it last and it sinks to the bottom pushing everything else upward. But when I shake it well, the mixture doesn't seperate.

Have you ever shaken a bottle and seen the ribbons in it? That is the separation of the PG from the VG. What you've done is make a mixture but it is not yet a compound. That is, the molecules of the PG and VG have not yet bonded, and they will not bond from shaking them.

Edit: Molecules - not chemicals bonding.
 

jwill

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1. You're right. I was making that comment tongue in cheek. There are some types of alcohols that are not meant for human consumption that will make someone go blind which was the basis of my tongue in cheek comment.

2. That was just two or three sentences and was completely irrelevant to the thread. If you disagree with that then fine. The point of that paragraph was to add credibility to the entire thread and show that I'm not just making this stuff up. I did a lot of research for this. I don't care what the community calls it, but we should know that when we are aging something it is not called steeping from a scientific standpoint.

Seriously dude. I am not being combative. You are a super sensitive dude for someone who wants to speak from a position of authority. Facts matter when speaking from a position of authority.
 

zeeter

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Seriously dude. I am not being combative. You are a super sensitive dude for someone who wants to speak from a position of authority. Facts matter when speaking from a position of authority.

And none of my facts were wrong other than the tongue in cheek comment that I made.
 

zeeter

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Seriously dude. I am not being combative. You are a super sensitive dude for someone who wants to speak from a position of authority. Facts matter when speaking from a position of authority.

I don't think you're trying to be combative, but you took one line from a very long post that was completely irrelevant to the topic and said I need to do more research. Can you go blind from alcohol? Yes. Can you go blind from the alcohol we're talking about here? No. Does that discredit my entire post? No. It was, again, just thrown in there for levity.
 

jwill

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And none of my facts were wrong other than the tongue in cheek comment that I made.

That's the issue with facts, now that there is an inaccuracy in it calls the rest of the statements into question. What methods are you testing to come to these conclusions and what sources are you citing to back them up?

Im not saying you are incorrect. I want to see the science behind the statements so that I can verify them myself.
 

Just Frank

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Have you ever shaken a bottle and seen the ribbons in it? That is the separation of the PG from the VG. What you've done is make a mixture but it is not yet a compound. That is, the molecules of the PG and VG have not yet bonded, and they will not bond from shaking them.

Edit: Molecules - not chemicals bonding.
Those ribbons cease to exist after 30 seconds of shaking.
 

zeeter

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Those ribbons cease to exist after 30 seconds of shaking.

You shake it enough and the VG will disburse throughout the bottle but that doesn't mean the molecules have bonded. It just means you shook the ribbons out of it. It will still settle after a bit.
 

zeeter

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That's the issue with facts, now that there is an inaccuracy in it calls the rest of the statements into question. What methods are you testing to come to these conclusions and what sources are you citing to back them up?

Im not saying you are incorrect. I want to see the science behind the statements so that I can verify them myself.

You are taking that one line far too seriously. My God - I said several comments ago it was a tongue in cheek remark. Get over it.

Source: Chemistry.
 

Just Frank

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You shake it enough and the VG will disburse throughout the bottle but that doesn't mean the molecules have bonded. It just means you shook the ribbons out of it. It will still settle after a bit.
Yeah but the ingredients don't seperate. I'm looking at a 58ML mix I made yesterday in a 60ML bottle. It all looks like one consistent liquid...same viscosity, color, and I've only shaken it the one time.

It reminds me of making chocolate/strawberry milk. Once it's mixed, it's mixed. I haven't had a science class in a while but I know there's a word for it.
 

zeeter

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Yeah but the ingredients don't seperate. I'm looking at a 58ML mix I made yesterday in a 60ML bottle. It all looks like one consistent liquid...same viscosity, color, and I've only shaken it the one time.

It reminds me of making chocolate/strawberry milk. Once it's mixed, it's mixed. I haven't had a science class in a while but I know there's a word for it.

It's called a solution. A compound is when you have two elements or solutions that chemically bond. When you mix chocolate syrup into milk you haven't made a compound as the molecules do not bond. But for chocolate milk it's close enough.

If you just mixed that e-liquid yesterday there's little chance that it is steeped or aged or whatever we decide to call it. Unless you used something like a 95/5 ratio or something.
 

Just Frank

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It's called a solution. A compound is when you have two elements or solutions that chemically bond. When you mix chocolate syrup into milk you haven't made a compound as the molecules do not bond. But for chocolate milk it's close enough.

If you just mixed that e-liquid yesterday there's little chance that it is steeped or aged or whatever we decide to call it. Unless you used something like a 95/5 ratio or something.
I know it takes time for the aging process. This mix isn't going to seperate tho.
 

zeeter

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I know it takes time for the aging process. This mix isn't going to seperate tho.

It won't separate because it was never a single part. You may have shaken the ribbons out of it but that doesn't cause a chemical reaction that would bond the molecules. Only time or some other outside force can do that, and as noted in my original post that outside force will most often change the molecules in a bad way.
 

St.Roostifer

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steeping

"Steeping is the soaking in liquid (usually water) of a solid so as to extract flavours or to soften it. The specific process of teas being prepared for drinking by leaving the leaves in heated water to release the flavour and nutrients is known as steeping. Herbal teas may be prepared by decoction,infusion, or maceration. Some solids are soaked to remove an ingredient, such as salt from smoked ham or salted cod, where the solute is not the desired product."

Just my humble opinion but steeping sounds like the right term to me.

One thing not pointed out is the quality of the ingredients used. I vape a variety of juice that ranges from 65-80% VG and have not once had the VG/PG separate. Once thoroughly shaken the the mix of VG PG flavoring and nicotine stays consistent throughout the entire bottle until it's used up.
 

jwill

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You are taking that one line far too seriously. My God - I said several comments ago it was a tongue in cheek remark. Get over it.

Source: Chemistry.

I vape very high VG. As close to 100% as possible. I mix it with a glass stirring rod by hand followed by a period on a magnetic stirrer (usually) on low speeds. Shaking near 100% VG is kind of like shaking honey. There is a little move, but not a lot. The liquid on the bottom generally tastes better than the liquid on the top since it has steeped a little more. Its often darker from oxidation and sweeter than the first bit. Good luck on your quest to convince the vaping community to switch the term steeping to aging. Steeping sounds better IMO. We age, wine ages, cheese ages. Juice steeps.
 

zeeter

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steeping

"Steeping is the soaking in liquid (usually water) of a solid so as to extract flavours or to soften it. The specific process of teas being prepared for drinking by leaving the leaves in heated water to release the flavour and nutrients is known as steeping. Herbal teas may be prepared by decoction,infusion, or maceration. Some solids are soaked to remove an ingredient, such as salt from smoked ham or salted cod, where the solute is not the desired product."

Just my humble opinion but steeping sounds like the right term to me.

One thing not pointed out is the quality of the ingredients used. I vape a variety of juice that ranges from 65-80% VG and have not once had the VG/PG separate. Once thoroughly shaken the the mix of VG PG flavoring and nicotine stays consistent throughout the entire bottle until it's used up.

That's what steeping is, however we are not steeping. We are releasing alcohols from the mixture and waiting for molecules to bond. That is not steeping.
 

zeeter

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Good luck on your quest to convince the vaping community to switch the term steeping to aging. Steeping sounds better IMO. We age, wine ages, cheese ages. Juice steeps.

I don't care what we call it. The purpose of that portion was to talk about what actually happens during the "steeping" process, which is actually aging. We can call it whatever we want, but for the purpose of my post I wanted to differentiate between the two processes.
 

jwill

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I don't care what we call it. The purpose of that portion was to talk about what actually happens during the "steeping" process, which is actually aging. We can call it whatever we want, but for the purpose of my post I wanted to differentiate between the two processes.

Apparently you do care.

Disclosure: We're not steeping e-liquid; we're aging it. We steep tea. The process for letting e-liquid age serves the same purpose as aging wine. As a community we should stop calling it steeping.
 

zeeter

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A misconception is that steeping enhances the flavor. Well that is misleading. Steeping releases the alcohol in the PG and VG which has the effect of enhancing the flavor.

I'll call it steeping from now on just to make things simple.
 

zeeter

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Apparently you do care.

Disclosure: We're not steeping e-liquid; we're aging it. We steep tea. The process for letting e-liquid age serves the same purpose as aging wine. As a community we should stop calling it steeping.

Well it's true, but it doesn't sound like it's going to happen. For accuracy's sake it we should be calling it aging rather than steeping. As per my last post I'll just call it steeping.
 

jwill

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Good luck on your quest to enlighten everyone. I'm jumping overboard at this point. I leave with the rats and they say its time to go.
 

zeeter

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Steeping sounds better IMO. We age, wine ages, cheese ages. Juice steeps.

This is entirely my point about what we should be calling it. The process of "steeping" e-liquids accomplishes the exact same thing as in the process of aging wine. The process is identical.

Again, though, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I'm just surprised that we have a wealth of information in the original post and almost all of the comments deal with "alcohol doesn't make you blind" and "we should keep calling it steeping."
 

Just Frank

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It won't separate because it was never a single part. You may have shaken the ribbons out of it but that doesn't cause a chemical reaction that would bond the molecules. Only time or some other outside force can do that, and as noted in my original post that outside force will most often change the molecules in a bad way.
I'm not arguing any of that. From your original post-
It may mix the ingredients well enough for a few vapes but the ingredients will again separate.
I never see any separation from the ingredients (VG/PG/Nic/Flavors) in my mixes. The above quote, (I put it in bold) I still say you're wrong. Unless "the ingredients will again separate" means steeping/aging/infusing. The components to the mix dont seperate from eachother and settle where gravity puts them.
 

gopher_byrd

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I'm with the I don't care what we call it camp. All I know is after a period of time, be it hours, days, or weeks, I get some tasty juice to vape!
:popcorn:
 

zeeter

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I'm not arguing any of that. From your original post-

I never see any separation from the ingredients (VG/PG/Nic/Flavors) in my mixes. The above quote, (I put it in bold) I still say you're wrong. Unless "the ingredients will again separate" means steeping/aging/infusing. The components to the mix dont seperate from eachother and settle where gravity puts them.

Frank, I created 12 batches of 65/35 yesterday. When you first posted I shook a bottle for a few seconds and saw the ribbons. Then I shook it for 30 seconds and did not see any ribbons.

It's been what, an hour? Hour and a half? I just shook it again and see the ribbons. This would indicate that the mixture is not yet a compound.

Lets suppose for a moment that it was. The second part of steeping is that we want to remove the alcohol. That is not completed by any means other than time and oxidation.
 

Just Frank

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Frank, I created 12 batches of 65/35 yesterday. When you first posted I shook a bottle for a few seconds and saw the ribbons. Then I shook it for 30 seconds and did not see any ribbons.

It's been what, an hour? Hour and a half? I just shook it again and see the ribbons. This would indicate that the mixture is not yet a compound.

Lets suppose for a moment that it was. The second part of steeping is that we want to remove the alcohol. That is not completed by any means other than time and oxidation.
I just gave mine a shake too. Nothing... I'm bowing out though. I've had enough of the quote fest. You get certain results, I get another. I agree to disagree and fully admit I may be wrong. I just have never noticed any of the ingredients of my mixes separating...ever.
 

zeeter

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I just noticed another way of telling. The bubbles. When you shake a bottle bubbles will appear and move to the top. Yet some get caught in the VG after shaking and move down instead of up. Shake it again, let it sit a moment, and turn it over. Same thing happens. The VG pushes some of the bubbles down.

Compare this to a mix I made a month ago. Doing the same thing all of the bubbles will move up no matter the shaking or bottle manipulation. Same viscosity in each one.
 

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