Bad Nic Base/Nic Salt Base? Headache, aftertaste, HILIQ - HELP!

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - General Discussion' started by mothzart, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Hi,

    First of all I would like to say a few words about myself as this is my first post. I'm from Poland, long time smoker, vaping (with quality e-cigs) since approx. 2 months, and since then I switched to vaping instead of smoking 100%.

    At the beginning I was buying ready e-liquid's (first 12mg, now 18mg - and that's the right amount for me). Unfortunately I couldn't find "the right one" so I decided to make my own

    So... I read about DIY liquids (tutorials etc.) and I decided to order NIC BASE. Unfortunately in Poland you won't buy a base stronger then 20mg/ml so I ordered from HILIQ (this shop was recommended by a guy that works at a local vapeshop). The process was ...a bit tricky (and the delivery costed as much as the base itself), but eventually I received my NIC BASE (freebase nic, 200mg/ml, 150ml). I was surprised by the color - it was amber-colored. As it was 100% in VG a was shaking, shaking, shaking ...and shaking some more (approx. 10-15 min intensive shaking). Then I made my desired 18mg/ml liquid with ingredients (VG, PG, aroma) previously tested on a "ZERO-NICOTINE" e-liquid (which vaped great, lovely vanilla-like taste, great clouds etc.).

    But...

    When I made my liquid WITH that base (everything literally sterile, syringes etc.; counted 10 times; all precautions taken; waited 1 day to aroma blend in) it TASTED HORRIBLE. The after taste was chemical-like, salty (? - hard to describe) and ALSO it produced HEAVY HEADACHE (BUT NO dizziness, NO nausea, NO anxiety - so it couldn't be NIC OD). And if that wasn't enough it also produced (after 10-15 "clouds") THROAT ACHE (but not the kind that "scratchy" liquids produce - it WAS LIKE WHEN SICK WITH THE FLU) - I had to take some throat medicine for that.

    I contacted HILIQ distributors in PL - and told them that something's not right. Fortunately support for polish customers was quite good, and they (after my suggestion) changed the product to: "NIC SALT A" 200mg/ml 100ml in PG this time.

    But...

    When this arrived (although the color was perfectly transparent), and I made my liquid - THE F...NG SAME!!! The after taste is a little lower, and there is NO sore throat side-effect, but after a few (3-5 clouds) my head is pulsing with pain!!!

    There are some moments (like this morning) when I was able to vape approx. 10-15 clouds without that aftertaste and then there was no headache ...and EVEN some of the aroma was present. But soon after that AFTERTASTE+HEADACHE!!!

    SO MY QUESTION IS - WHAT CAN I BE DOING WRONG?
    ...OR IS THIS JUST FAULTY SALT-NIC-BASE?
    HAS ANYONE HAD SIMILAR EXPERIENCE?

    I shaken everything (the base before mixing[15 min, it had a little foam even], the liquid after mixing[frequently]), I keep the base in a refrigerator, I use sterile equipment, I made the "zero-nic" base as a control and it vapes great, I let it steep for a day or more. Everything according to the book...

    What should I do? Any solutions or is this a refund situation?

    BTW: NIC-SALT-BASE (Salt A) batch number is: MD:2019.03.13 - anyone has the same batch? Same problems?

    Thanks in advance :)
    cya

    P.S.1. When I vape and i don't come across this bad after-taste, the e-liquid seems (even though I made it weaker - 12mg/ml) to give me dizziness, unpleasant "rush" - a bit like OD, but no HEADACHE and no nausea. Maybe it's (also) much stronger then declared?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  2. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 2 Years VU Challenge Team Reviewer

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    7,217
    How much are you adding? ml wise and how big is the batch you are making

    I.e

    Want to make 100ml juice
    70/30 VG/PG mix
    10ml Flavours (pg or VG)
    x = Nic added (PG or VG)

    200mg/ml is very highly concentrated compared to what you are used to 20mg/ml

    Nic will darken over time when oxygen gets to it - keep it airtight as much as possible possibly extract it into smaller brown bottles and put them into the freezer so you aren’t opening the big 150ml bottle every time

    I’ve not used Hi Liq before as to whether it’s any good or not @5150sick has I believe
     
    Letitia9 likes this.
  3. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    What atomizer are you using, watts and resistance? Also as KP said let us know the ml or grams of nic you're adding to the mix.
     
    KingPin! likes this.
  4. VAPEROXX

    VAPEROXX Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,486
    In my experience as a Nicotine Salts mixer, Nic Salts oxidizes more rapidly than freebase for whatever reason. I have also learned that if Nic Salts reach that point of dark amber color just before it turns to a brown color, it becomes very pungent in smell and taste and can no longer be used. It often kills flavoring as well as causes a variety of minor physical symptoms such as headaches, nausea, and a cough immediately after inhaling. My opinion based on this experience is that you received a bad batch that has overly oxidized possibly due to poor laboratory practices or substandard packaging. Good Nic Salts should be virtually clear and colorless with no discernible taste and should be non-intrusive in your mixes. Also, for reference, a PG based Nic Salts is much easier to work with and carries the Nicotine much better.

    http://vapingunderground.com/threads/wts-wtt-aspex-performance-coils.434798/
     
    KingPin! likes this.
  5. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    I have had none of these issues with salts in the 1.5 years I've been using them to mix with. Yes it does color faster but does not get peppery or lose its strength, it isn't oxidized. Salts don't really oxidize actually, something to do with the added acid. It also doesn’t mute the flavors at anywhere from 3-18mg, haven't used them higher than that. As far as smell I only get the same light odor or taste I get from fresh freebase which disappears in a mix.
     
    KingPin! and VAPEROXX like this.
  6. VAPEROXX

    VAPEROXX Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,486
    I had this issue once with a batch of 100mg nic salts from Nicotine River. Turned brown, nasty taste, coughed my head off, headache and killed my recipes. And Nic Salts do still oxidize. The Benzoic Acid only neutralizes the alkaline properties of the Nicotine. This does slow the oxidation process but only marginally. Oxygen still combines with the Nicotine molecules producing a "rusting" effect. This process, if left unchecked by not ensuring the nic salts are properly sealed, will ruin the Nicotine just like freebase.

    http://vapingunderground.com/threads/wts-wtt-aspex-performance-coils.434798/
     
    KingPin! likes this.
  7. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    I've used 250mg salts with none of the issues you've mentioned, I would have returned it before using if I could smell them.
     
    KingPin! and VAPEROXX like this.
  8. VAPEROXX

    VAPEROXX Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,486
    KingPin! likes this.
  9. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    True. Still would have contacted the vendor before using if the salts were stored properly.
     
    KingPin! and VAPEROXX like this.
  10. VAPEROXX

    VAPEROXX Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,486
    I received the Nicotine Salts from Nicotine River in good condition. But as I used it, it deteriorated rapidly in the container (over a period of 1 month). By that time, obviously it was too late for Nicotine River to do anything about it.

    http://vapingunderground.com/threads/wts-wtt-aspex-performance-coils.434798/
     
    KingPin! likes this.
  11. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    That should not have happened even with hit salts.
     
  12. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Wow :) Huuuge thanks for so much info :)

    Actually a little UPDATE (although I don't want to jinx it yet) - today I just ..."soldiered on" and smoked the liquid until it got this weird taste/headache vs. good taste ratio UP and as the day went on ....there was a lot more vanilla/milky AROMA and the chemical after-taste was appearing after 7th (cloud)...then 10th ...then NONE :D

    I guess that it just had to be:
    a) REALLY well shaken - BASE, before making a test batch (10 min)
    b) made into a weaker strength (12mg/ml instead of 18mg/ml) - I was in my local vapeshop and the guy that was there told me that salts are usually approx. x1,9 stronger (IS THAT TRUE?)
    c) laid to rest for a while

    1. I made my first batch VG70:30PG / 10ml / 18mg/ml 7% Aroma [Panna Cotta - i like vanilla/carmel-like taste] so I added 0,9 ml (0,94mg) of the NIC salt - but this batch wasn't shaken for as long.
    2. Second batch was a control batch with ZERO NIC
    3. Third was made using REALLLY well shaken BASE and in 12mg/ml (but if what the local reseller says, that it's approx twice as strong it would be 24mg) - a added 0,6ml (0,62mg)
    4. Fourth was like the first but well shaken and with a different aroma.

    First I tested the batch #1 - therefore this post. Then I tested the third, and after approx 12h it started to "even out"

    BTW: One thing sueprised me as hell! NO (NONE!) THROAT HIT - almost like my e-cig was off :) - gotta get used to not having throat hit I hues... although when I started vaping it was the most annoying thing, and now I miss it a little (I guess it's like when your loved one snores... first you hate it - then you cannot sleep without it ;P). Also there's less "smoke".
    BTW2: I'm a beginner - I use Joytech Ego AIO 1500mah with 0,6 original SS316, I'm writing because someone asked. For my use it's enough, although in the furure i would like something with a stronger battery, and a bigger tank.

    Wish me luck, and don't close this topic just yet and set it as [SOLVED]

    Thanks once again
    ...I'LL BE BACK ;D
     
    Letitia9 and JuicyLucy like this.
  13. jinx'd

    jinx'd Gold Contributor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    2,396
    you talk'n to me ?
     
  14. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    @jinx'd - no... I was't talking to you :) - i just used a saying

    Now I have a different problem - DRY HITS :/

    The taste is great, the whole thing mixed well etc. About the strength - I found that 18mg/ml (salt) is just right. Maybe it hits a little faster but I didn't feel like it was twice as strong as NIC BASE.

    About that problem.... When I put a new fresh (original) coil (SS316 0.6Ohm) I found that it was working good for about A DAY :( After that (especially after charging the pen at night - therefore having more power when fully charger) in the morning I got dry hits. Also I had to prime the (new) coil with "store-bought" e-liquid - it had to go through approx. 1ml of it before I could put in my DIY liquid.

    So my first thought - PG:VG ratio (PG30:70VG) was to thick, so I made a 50/50 liquid. It got A LITTLE better, but still I was getting dry hits and also the top of my AIO was getting really hot quite fast. I had to limit the time of a single puff to approx 2sec (while normally it was approx 5sec), and also the "bursts" had to be shorter and with longer intermissions (2secPUFF-5secBREAK), and then after 4-5 bursts like that i had wait a few minutes until the head got colder, otherwise DRY HIT - ALL OF THAT - REALLY ANNOYING - especially when you have only a few minutes of break to vape. At the same time - when I was switching to "store-bought" liquid everything was going back to normal, even on a coil which previously had dry hits. ALSO... I found out that there was brown-ish residue inside the mouthpiece after a day of vaping even though my DIY liquids are almost transparent.

    Now I'm waiting for a 1.0 Ohm coils to arrive - my logic is that it gives less power (also uses less battery), while the cotton "supplies" the coil with the liquid at the same paste. But it's only my guess... :/

    ALSO - I am looking for an upgrade - when I'll have some money I'm looking to buy "SMOK G80 with TFV4 HEAD". This set should "supply" the liquid fast enough and and it should have a rebuildable coil which would be great for me (I'm definately a DIY guy).

    Any advice - someone had the same problems with salts? ..or maybe the AIO is the problem?
     
  15. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    Honestly all of your problems would be fixed with a device that gives you more control over the settings. Something simple like an istick 30w or pico 25 would be sufficient.
     
    KingPin! likes this.
  16. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Yup, I agree 100% - I do need some new equipment (although I've been using eGo AIO/vaping[regular insead of smoking] only for approx 2 months) cause i threw myself "in to deep waters" from the start by DIY'ing liquids etc.

    ...the only problem is ...money :/

    But when I'll be able to make a purchase my preliminary choice is SMOK G80 with TFV4 Head (which is only 30$ on AliEx: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Orig...Vape-G-80-Kit-with-Spirals-e/32846128263.html ). I was also taking in considaration ELeaf Ikuu i80 with MELO4 Head ( http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Orig...-Melo-4-Atomizer-80W-box-mod/32837805242.html )
     
  17. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    Always choose eleaf over smok, always. You would get longer battery life if you go with a simple VW mod vs a device that has tc options.
     
  18. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    17,150
    Don't listen to all the SMOK haters because I have had nothing but great experiences with mine. I actually own a few of them unlike the people knocking them.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. susieqz

    susieqz Silver Contributor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    562
    oh, i had good experiences with smok too.
    for the 3 weeks before it died.
     
  20. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    I owned a smok...that's the reason I'll never own another.
     
  21. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    To be honest I found very mixed reviews about SMOK G80 vs iKuu(n) i80 both here, on YT, and also in a local vapeshop.

    I think I'm going to take the risk and go with the SMOK - it has interchangeable batteries (huge plus), the set that's on AliEx has a TFV4 head Kit which should have 1 RBA coil (again a plus), much more coils overall and TC control ...no opinion here, I'm not experienced enough to say anything.

    And also my (subjective) visual taste just "pushes" me rather towards SMOK - the i80 (watched on YT) looks like it's gonna feel plastic-ish, the "fire" button as a whole side-panel also doesn't convince me.

    And if that's really gonna disappoint me - I'll have to buy a new mod (the TFV4 head is supposedly a good design).

    ...but, NONETHELESS this is still gonna take some time, until it arrives - until then I have to do something about those dry hits etc...

    Today I made a modification to one of my BF SS316 coils - i made the channels that support the cotton with liquid a little wider. This coil has the outer barrel, and the insides (i made a "contraption" that pushes the insides from the outer barrel using a clamp).

    The insides have airflow channels on "west" and "east" which go from the top to the bottom of the coil therefore "mixing" the liquid with the air on the cotton and the wire when I inhale. On the "north" and "south" side there are small channels which "pump" more liquid from the bottom of the tank - AND THOSE I WIDENED with a dremel. The effect - less dry hits, but the taste changed (I made those modifications on a coil previously used with my DIY liquid which had some dry hits on it).

    But all of that is still very strange to me - on HILIQ site they even mentioned that the "Salt B" has an issue with carbonization, it wasn't mentioned in the "Salt A" description, but who knows. ON THE OTHER HAND - when I put "store-bought" liquid into a coil that gives me dry hits with my DIY liquid everything goest back to normal. I'm clueless - it would be best if someone who used that "Salt A" from HILIQ could say if that might be the issue.
     
    Letitia9 likes this.
  22. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    17,150
    I have heard for years that SMOK doesn't do TC well but it works great for me~! You know what they say though? Subjective :coffee::coffee2:
     
  23. Letitia9

    Letitia9 Therion/Nano Junkie VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,213
    TFv4 rba head isn't bad and the t3 coil is good for a drop in. If you can still find it the single coil rba head it is a bit better, not so finicky with the wicking. All in all I was happy with the tfv4 when I was using it.
     
  24. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    ...OK, no more SMOK vs. eLeaf dillema - just bought the g80 :)

    Now only wait... and wait... and wait... :/
     
    Letitia9 likes this.
  25. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    A little demonstration of what I just did with the coil. It made vaping possible again and dry hits occur less often, but the taste is ...well ...bad :( Some of the hits aren't dry but they taste a little burnt. It's nowhere close to a first 100% normal experience from a new coil well primed but I guess it has to work for me until the "dragon" (in polish SMOK = DRAGON) arrives.

    Here's the pic:
    http://oi64.tinypic.com/a5du1c.jpg

    UPDATE: I made the same thing on a less burnt coil (but still it was giving me dry hits on my DIY liquids), it was also washed (boiling h2o w/citric acid "bath" then Isopropanol "bath") and so far it's working pretty well - we'll see tommorow. But maybe that's gonna make some real change (at least until SMOK).
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019 at 4:45 PM
  26. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2014
    Messages:
    6,716
    Coils are cheap to start with, but smok is famous for having bad coils.
    You really do not need to "wash" your coils... especially with citrus acid and any sort of alcohol.
    That alcohol is probably what is killing that coil and causing a harsh burnt feeling and taste..
    Just go buy a few packs of coils or a better unit other than smok.
     
  27. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Well actually those "baths" + widened liquid intake + priming with store-bought liquid (approx 1ml has to go through) work pretty good. Before cleaning there was a lot of burnt residue and there was nothing but dry hits. OFC it still doesn't solve the problem, but it let's me use coils for longer than 1 day.

    I can't say much about SMOK, but still I think that it's gonna work better than my eGo AIO which is, let's say it, a pretty small device.
     
  28. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2014
    Messages:
    6,716
    Issue is what is in your juice..

    too much sweeteners and other additives makes coils not last long, then toss in smok.. yeah..

    but cleaning with citric acid and alcohol, is never a bright idea.. do as you wish, this is your diy :)
     
  29. mothzart

    mothzart New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Well, I really like my DIY liquids sweet, but I put only a little aroma (half what's suggested). When I was smoking store-bought liquids (even sweeter) there was no dry hits, at least not after 1 day of vaping.

    The coils are cheap, but I cannot change a coil everyday, because now what I was going through was:
    - fresh new coil (0,6; without widened intake)
    - primed with store bought liquid
    - works great ...for 1 day
    - then every other intake is a dry hit

    After modifications (pic above) + 2 "baths" the coil looks almost like new (a lot of residue was left in the citric acid water).

    And then when I prime the same coil with store liquid again and switch to my DIY liquid it works almost like a new coil (~90%?). Nontheless this works (even with widening) for approx. 2-3 days then the taste gets "dry-hit-ish". And so ...I have to rotate the 4 coils I got right now, until my "refurbishment" won't do any difference.

    And I hope it's the thickness of the juice, not the nic salt, otherwise I'm stuck with a lot of nic salt and no option for vaping it.

    BTW: I wonder when there's going to be a solution that makes cotton obsolete and the coils will work for months ;)
     
  30. nadalama

    nadalama VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,588
    The only Smok I own is a G80, came with a Smok Spirals tank. I have had great service out of both the mod and the tank. It's a very basic mod, but it works well enough and for sure doesn't seem like a piece of junk. I did buy a wrap from VaporSkinz for it so the finish wouldn't start chipping and looking crappy. So many of Smok's finishes don't hold up well.

    Would recommend you use the RBA, so you won't have to buy Smok's factory coils. The 0.5 ohm Clapton coil that came with my Spirals RBA is still in there, at least six months now, still being used, and it's quite a good coil. I rewick it every couple weeks and it's held up like a champ.
     
  31. nadalama

    nadalama VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,588
    I've had Vaporesso ceramic coils (cCells) last for months. They do have some cotton in them, but the ceramic is unbelievable.

    The Horizon Krixus was an attempt at a tank with a ceramic coil with replaceable cotton. I have one somewhere but wasn't experienced enough with building at the time I got it, and I was all thumbs and making a mess. Ended up breaking the coil housing.
     

Share This Page

Close This Message