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Big Tobacco Watch - Vape Companies

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the moves taken or where it’s headed looks like control of distribution, wholesale and tying up nic manufacture is the goal

Tying up most Nic Extractor's shouldn't be hard. There are only a handful of USP Grade extractors that I could find. It's a very small market.

That said, I'm pretty sure we won't lose access to nic without government intervention. India and China will have it.
 

KingPin!

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Lobby and PR group details

This document was prepared by ASH for the All Party Parliamentary Group in the UK on Smoking and Health and sets out a summary of information in the public domain at the current time about front groups and third party advocates with links to the tobacco industry and their role in the recent UK legislative process in 2014

There are roughly 200 known lobby groups for big tobacco, I will try to pick out groups tied with vaping ....but here is the report

http://ash.org.uk/download/appg-report-on-tobacco-front-groups-and-third-party-lobbying-tactics/

This report is well worth a read ....scary how many finger in pies there are, and on top of that the investment in PR companies to sow disinformation with the public
 

KingPin!

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Lobby group spending database can select by year and who the top investors are, it holds company information related to tobacco so could be a mix of traditional firms and independent vaping companies

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=A02

With the increased political pressure of cigarettes causing harm spending has reduced significantly in recent years
 

KingPin!

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KingPin!

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Bad time for juul with the news ...big opportunity for big tobacco though according to this pie

7D87987B-1CED-4FAE-8794-E3224B63D670.jpeg

Ok they are also under the spotlight with their brands too, but for them it’s a drop in the ocean and brings heat not burn tech back into the picture in my mind....something just seems off with the FDAs bashing on vaping, it’s like a co-ordinated effort to undermine vaping ...who’s the lobby group on the grassy knowl?

Guess most of us sit in the 5% market with the freebase and traditional mod and atty approach?
 

Canadian Vaper

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I wonder what their actual market share is instead of just monetary, a lot of vapers don't understand why they have a big market share, that's because pods are expensive in comparison, 4 pods maybe what 16$ online, many people use 1-1.5 pods a day so lets say 5$/day, compare that to some Watch's Clockwerks Custard 120ml for 15$, average sub-ohmer is what 7-10mls a day? so like 13-14 days a bottle..

Tmax 14 days (could be 20+ days with higher mg) - 15$
Juul 14 days - 70$

They are pulling in about 5 times the money the regular vapers are when it comes to juice, never mind devices as well..
 

KingPin!

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5150sick

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Altria looking to get a peice of JUUL - still heresay until it isn’t,

JUUL tried to distance itself from big tobacco but if my research in this thread is anything to go by they have had a history with BT from their ealy days in one form or another albeit in a different company name

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/28/altria-is-reportedly-in-talks-to-take-a-minority-stake-in-juul.html

They were designed by PAX labs.
They make excellent portable vaporizers for..... other stuff?

See how I skirted right around rule #1? :D
 

SteveS45

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When I was using the Mark Ten XL's, at the time I thought they were pretty good sorry to hear they are gone. I got a few people to try vaping with those.
 

KingPin!

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This has to make you pause and wonder how this will affect BT playing both sides of the regulations.

I imagine with all the heat on the pods right now Juul is probably glad for the deep pockets and government back channels Altria has ...case of survival I imagine although the move has hurt Altria’s stock due to market thinking they overpaid

2018 lobby spending ...all time low since 1998 mind you

10B14B03-85CE-4164-8D37-48AFA24D4DC0.jpeg
 

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Its definitely going to be interesting to see what happens next. With this merger, we should get some validation as to whether some of what we suspect in how they are playing the field is true or not.
 

jwill

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I'm okay with BT getting into the vape industry, just worried about them lobbying for closed systems. Another concern I would have is any additives they may add to juices.

And thats a real concern. They have been known to take things that might be considered generally non toxic and non fatal and making them toxic and fatal. Look at the stuff they put into the patches, nicotine gum and some of their other pod systems.
 

KingPin!

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I'm okay with BT getting into the vape industry, just worried about them lobbying for closed systems. Another concern I would have is any additives they may add to juices.

Definitely a concern ...repeat business and brand loyalty is what they trade in and what they know and juul are investing in future closed systems where only a single user can activate the device and it remains off in certain places.

Juul has a major foothold so while Altria don’t own a majority share there’s a lot of disruptive influencing that could go on to lower thier brand and snap em up cheaper...hope not instead I hope they join forces to better the industry but I’ll remain cautiously on the fence about it all
 

Vape Fan

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Definitely a concern ...repeat business and brand loyalty is what they trade in and what they know and juul are investing in future closed systems where only a single user can activate the device and it remains off in certain places.

Juul has a major foothold so while Altria don’t own a majority share there’s a lot of disruptive influencing that could go on to lower thier brand and snap em up cheaper...hope not instead I hope they join forces to better the industry but I’ll remain cautiously on the fence about it all
My thought is BT + anything vaping isn't good. You can't change a leopards spots and all BT is after, as proven by past performance, is control, customers, and profit. If they can have their foot in FDA's door and FDA imposes what they want on vaping, BT would get what they're after if they come up with an FDA approved device.
 

The Cromwell

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It may come down to just sealed systems.
However that is still better for those wanting to quit smoking than virtually no legal to buy vape options.

I do not really have any problems with BT. I am not pro BT either.
But they kept me well supplied with Cigs for 40 years.
It was MY choice to be stupid and smoke.
I just hope that those in the future that want to quit smoking have at least a vaping option open since BP's options really do not work.
I actually have more problems with Big Pharma than Big Tobacco.
 

KingPin!

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It may come down to just sealed systems.
However that is still better for those wanting to quit smoking than virtually no legal to buy vape options.

I do not really have any problems with BT. I am not pro BT either.
But they kept me well supplied with Cigs for 40 years.
It was MY choice to be stupid and smoke.
I just hope that those in the future that want to quit smoking have at least a vaping option open since BP's options really do not work.
I actually have more problems with Big Pharma than Big Tobacco.

Pharma have holdings as well ...we’ll see them rise to the surface when over regulation and prescription services kick in ...that’s what they are after I suspect
 

The Cromwell

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Pharma have holdings as well ...we’ll see them rise to the surface when over regulation and prescription services kick in ...that’s what they are after I suspect
Yep I figure that BP wants to have sealed systems be the only legal vape source and have them be prescription only...
another way to raise insurance rates and HC costs and their profits.
 

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Altriia made the Mark Ten XL's which I actually used before I bought my 1st MOD Kit. Since the coupons they sent they only cost me a $1 and I had choices of what flavors, more power to them. Read the site and how they are supporting and researching OPEN Systems. Don't knock things you have not researched or done some reading on. Just my fucking opinion but still.
 

Letitia9

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I admit I don’t read what BT puts out there due to the fact they have literally been publishing lies and half truths my entire life.
 

SteveS45

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I admit I don’t read what BT puts out there due to the fact they have literally been publishing lies and half truths my entire life.

I never quoted you so why do you think I was directing my comment at you? You may not have quoted me but you definitely were responding. I used the Mark ten XL from Altria and they kicked ass, compared to other Cig-A-Likes, so I speak from personal experience. Not what I heard or read, or watched on some dumbass video review.
 

KingPin!

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Explain your hours upon hours of research then Steve? Compared to the collective input so far

what open systems are they supporting? How many are out there with thier name on it to date?
 

KingPin!

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So one source of information ...thier own website, why didn’t I think of that :crazy:

investing in what exactly saying and doing are different things...

Is it listed outside of the below associated products I already listed

Brands
IQOS - heat not burn technology (Marlboro Heatstick)
MarkTen (Solaris in Israel & Spain)
Vivid
Nicocig
Green Smoke
Mesh
Steem
Juul (stake in)
 

KingPin!

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You mean this bullshit statement listed at the bottom? ...they have fuck-all open systems is the answer

1B55FFFA-6179-4B38-B05E-2D0D6B912C58.jpeg
 

KingPin!

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who is the store chain?
What product?
What kind of System? rda/rta?

Nu-Mark innovations ltd is the subsidiary this is listed under ...genuinely if Altria have a open product out or are actively developing an open system I’ll happily update my tracking page on post 2

But all I see is market research nothing more
 

Letitia9

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Maybe BT are secretly behind the new disposable dl tanks.;)
 

JuicyLucy

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If Altria or one of the other BT could dupe the flavor of Marlboro or some of the other really big sellers, they'd really have something and smokers might be more open to at least try vaping
 

KingPin!

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If Altria or one of the other BT could dupe the flavor of Marlboro or some of the other really big sellers, they'd really have something and smokers might be more open to at least try vaping

I don’t think taste is enough honestly. Duplicate the hit and taste would be needed I think.

Combine these two things in vape form that has to be the holy grail.... Closed system or not it would be a good thing to get people off the stinkies for good ...Juul pretty much has that they just need to weather the FDA shitstorm
 

The Cromwell

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I am an open system vaper and will not change, I expect.
However the Juul types of systems will do much more to get people off cigs than open systems will.
They are simple to use and substitute for a cig well. Or so they tell me ;)
As we all know open systems can be much more satisfying for most of us here but the vast majority of vapers are NOT here and want something simple for the most part. Remember that no vaping will get as simple as smoking.
Or just blow clouds and blow their face off, AKA cool factor. but that for another thread :)
 

The Cromwell

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Also Juul is much safer than the open tank higher wattage vaping that most of us do.
Not heard yet of anyone blowing their face off with a Juul or their balls of with spare Juul batteries in their pocket.

Not a Juul fan but see it's place.
Just hope that open system remains viable in the future. But smokers need things like Juul for the most part to get off of cigs.
 

Letitia9

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Both would help - but there is a reason Juul dominates - it's the closest thing to a cigarette draw I've ever tried

It was kinda scary actually
Haven't ever hit one. Now I know not to, want keep my distance from anything that reminds me of smoking. Found out the hard way last year I am far from cured regarding my smoking addiction. Am rather proud I didn’t give in, literally could not go in anywhere cigs were sold for a couple weeks. Was harder than quitting honestly.
 

JuicyLucy

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Haven't ever hit one. Now I know not to, want keep my distance from anything that reminds me of smoking. Found out the hard way last year I am far from cured regarding my smoking addiction. Am rather proud I didn’t give in, literally could not go in anywhere cigs were sold for a couple weeks. Was harder than quitting honestly.

I got them for my still-smoking husband, they really did scare me the sensation of smoking was so strong with it, though it didn't taste like a smoke, the feel was definitely there

I have only taken one other drag from one since I bought his about a year and a half ago, that was when I was bringing his with me to the hospital and I needed a stealth vape. Same thing - reminded me big time of smoking
 

Letitia9

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Also Juul is much safer than the open tank higher wattage vaping that most of us do.
Not heard yet of anyone blowing their face off with a Juul or their balls of with spare Juul batteries in their pocket.

Not a Juul fan but see it's place.
Just hope that open system remains viable in the future. But smokers need things like Juul for the most part to get off of cigs.
I wholeheartedly agree. I suspect that more Juul users don't move into open systems than we know. Lucy is the third person I've seen post how close Juul devices are to actually smoking. That is using Juul juices though, not refill other salt brands.
 

Letitia9

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I got them for my still-smoking husband, they really did scare me the sensation of smoking was so strong with it, though it didn't taste like a smoke, the feel was definitely there

I have only taken one other drag from one since I bought his about a year and a half ago, that was when I was bringing his with me to the hospital and I needed a stealth vape. Same thing - reminded me big time of smoking
I think you are stronger willed than I might have been. Afraid it being so close would have tipped me over the edge.
 

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If someone developed something like an open system juul that were rebuildable I would give it a shot.
The vape from then isn't bad, I just refuse to be married to pods and the like
 

JuicyLucy

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I am too tight assed to be tied to pods or replaceable coils or even pre-made juice.

Me too - I loved the Von Erl and would have loved to use it more - just too damn expensive

If I'da been buying commercial juice all this time, would never have been able to afford my fairly nice vapocolypse stash
 

The Cromwell

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Me too - I loved the Von Erl and would have loved to use it more - just too damn expensive

If I'da been buying commercial juice all this time, would never have been able to afford my fairly nice vapocolypse stash
Same here pretty much built up a big enough hardware stash to maybe last the rest of my life and still spent maybe 1/4 of what I would have been spending on cigs at $34/carton.
 

KingPin!

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Thought it was worth noting here with the flavour bans going on but seems to fit

piecing bits together - my take on events so far

States in Debt - tobacco bonds that won’t mature

Declining smoking population

The start of misinformation is strewn on the internet (well more of it and scaling to drown out the positives)

Juul is taken over by a BT largest vaping company - a company who had historic dealings with BT even if they were independent for a time.

Juul is campaigning to the kids (planted the seed)

Juul starts their new tech of over 18 activation - ready for controls

Now misinformation is legitimised in search engines, social media platforms and media

Meanwhile Iqos get approved by FDA (tobacco product) for sale in USA - ready for controls

There is motive to make people sick splice some cartridges - either to enforce regulation , or to derail vaping as safe by allowing the conditions to exist

Seed was already sown much earlier about the kids - now they are getting really sick for real

rush through regulation in a state of panic - don’t allow people time to react

other countries follow suit with blanket bans (invested in tobacco heavily as producers or user base)

deeming regs coming but everyone focuses on wtf is happening now with the curve ball - eases in as advocates went to sleep


.....bang today


tomorrow regulation, control, favour companies who have certain features (mentioned above) to deliver them

everywhere gets more expensive to vape with the largest market under the cosh, companies go bust leaving less choice, leaving the deep pocket players on the field and more people take up smoking again


somewhere at the start of that was a plan, round table and group of people - call it a theory only welcome discussion on this for sure
 
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