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Clones vs. Authentics
- Thread starter Ghostrider
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thechinaman
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as another user stated in a different thread the affordability thing is kinda bullshit. i can't speak for your personal situation, but i can't even count the number of people that i have met who have had $500-1000 invested in clones. i bet many of you, if you added it up, have enough money in clones to buy a few authentic mods. also depending on where you live and how much you smoked, its not that far of a stretch to assume that most people spent over $200 a month on cigs when the smoked, yet people bitch about spending $200 on a mod?
Jcc2k
Member For 4 Years
The setup I have in my avatar is the only authentic stuff I own... Its the setup I take when I leave the house. It's reliable and stealthy. The rest of the stuff is just for me to play around with at home. I would buy more authentic's if there was something different or innovative about them, but for the most part, its just a threaded tube with a switch and top cap. Yes, there are some differences in each, but nothing I am willing to pay 2oo+ for. At least not yet...
st_andrew
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I think a lot of us got into vaping not only for the health benefits but to also save money. So to say you used to spend x-dollars a month on cigs so now you should spend it on an authentic mod just doesn't make sense, dollar wise. Also people like variety so if they have 500 in clones that would be like spending 3000$ on the real thing.
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Rick S
Member For 4 Years
When I smoked , I bought the generics 3 bucks a pack cigs, not the so called name brands "5 and 6 dollar marlboro's, newports so on and so on"
I guess I really missed out on having the real cigs?
MistaKuraudo
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I think you missed the point of the argument. Even if you bought a pack a day at $3, that's $90 in a month. You can get an authentic Chinese mod and atty for less than that, without having to buy a "clone". I mean, if it's "just a tube" as others would argue, why not buy something authentic instead of a mod who's design and logo was stolen and sold to make profit?
Rick S
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$90= 5 or 6 clones $90= 1 maybe 2 authentics. I'll stay with 5 or 6. Sorry mod designer.
MistaKuraudo
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I'm sorry. That's false. Here...
http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10006216/1476405-authentic-ksd-novice-hybrid-mechanical-mod
http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10006215/1476402-authentic-ksd-s2-mechanical-mod
http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10004705/1580000-authentic-kamry-k600-e-cigarette-start-kit
http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10005100/1400500-igo-l-rebuildable-stainless-steel-dripping
http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10005100/1431800-igo-w-stainless-steel-rebuildable-dripping
$90.06 total. 5(6 if you count the atty on the first, 7 if you count the clearo in the kit) all Chinese authentics.(At least from what I can see) And one of them is a box mod kit, so it comes with a charger and batt. Basically everything you need in mechanicals except for wick, wire and juice.
Rick S
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Crapp
I wonder if the people preferring clones also don't care if a juice is imitated also. The alien Vapors copies come to mind, have seen a lot of people feel strongly against those, eg "Boba;s Bounty " copy. I have seen it in a thread that the juice was OK, but he buyer was still not happy and felt ripped off. I suppose it might be different if the juices were sold as "a copy" or " an imitation" , or " in the style of".
MistaKuraudo
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The whole alien vapors thing is kind of like the whole clone deal, but not exactly. They used AVE's name(or at least made it as close as possible to trick unknowing consumers) and their signature juice(name) to make money. Their juice was also very sub-par, so that only angered the majority of their customers. Making the same flavored juice isn't like cloning mods though. It's stealing someone's name/someones brand that really gets to me.
st_andrew
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Ok I like the idea of clones. Don't get that confused with counterfeits. I think they should stop using logos and brands if they aren't authentic. Just like how they stopped the Hana DNA 30 clone . They took off all markings . That's how they should build all future clones.
I guess my avatar is a dead give away. LOL {click avatar to see in motion}Some people are natural shit-stirrers....in a new forum it doesn't take long to figure out who they are...
Jcc2k
Member For 4 Years
The people that keep paying these prices for an authentic mod are the people that drive the prices up, they are the people that the mod makers love. How high are you willing to go? I really want the authentic Stingray X, but there is no way in hell I would pay 250 for one, but apparently there are plenty of people that would. Would they pay 350? 450? 550? It has to end somewhere. Also, authentic doesn't mean good... You can end up with an authentic piece of crap.
As mentioned above, I can do with or without the logo. It's the people trying to sell the clone's as authentic that you should be going after, not us who pay what we think a product is worth.
P.S. My $50 Stingray X clone ships out today and my wife loves her CZ engagement ring, don't judge her for it.
As mentioned above, I can do with or without the logo. It's the people trying to sell the clone's as authentic that you should be going after, not us who pay what we think a product is worth.
P.S. My $50 Stingray X clone ships out today and my wife loves her CZ engagement ring, don't judge her for it.
This logic is no good because you cannot copyright, trademark, or patent a flavor. Not on juice, or any other product on the planet.
It is required that you change the name though, so I suppose it's a good argument, but you can name things VERY similar and get away with it...
PT Rampy
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OK here is my 2 cents.
- Cloning, including labeling is dishonest.
- Claiming that something is one thing and really isn't, is dishonest.
- Taking a known design and improving it is the foundation of business and the path leading to advancements and competition and competition spurs the market.
- While I can afford anything I want to buy there is a question of getting gouged...example $200 + for a mechanical?????????
- Cloning, including labeling is dishonest.
- Claiming that something is one thing and really isn't, is dishonest.
- Taking a known design and improving it is the foundation of business and the path leading to advancements and competition and competition spurs the market.
- While I can afford anything I want to buy there is a question of getting gouged...example $200 + for a mechanical?????????
SerialVapist
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as a proud father of 3 authentic mods tend to be well over my budget. with that being said...i'm clone rich.
FatCat
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I'm new to the forum, this is my first post. After reading this whole thread I believe it misses the point. I don't think the debate is about whether a product is "authentic" or a copy (clone, knockoff), but rather how well it is designed and manufactured. Sad to say, my experience has been that both "authentics" and "clones" (I own and use both) leave much to be desired in terms of construction and reliability. Chalk it up to a new market with a vast and growing number of products. And yes, there are dishonest vendors selling inferior products, but there are just as many who try to give their customers good value for their money. So I read forums like this to see what other vapers experiences have been and make my buying choices accordingly. Thanks to all you contributors for sharing your opinions on the products we all use.
Yes I do support cloning. Think about it, without clones you would be driving a model A Ford right now. Manufacturers have to be innovative to stay ahead in this business, or they'll be left behind.
MistaKuraudo
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If a mod/atty has amazing workmanship and quality, people will want it. If demand is high enough, the price will keep. If the demand is even higher, aftermarket value will rise even more. That's just how it is with independent modders and high end gear. Hype also has to do with it, but for the most part, the best atties out there that are $200 are still being sold for $200 used.(More from flippers) Same goes with mods. Find a doodlebug or rocket selling for less than 50% RRP. It's almost never going to happen, and if it does, it'll be sold in seconds.
Less sought after mods/attys will always go down in price. For the most part, vapers that go higher end know what they're buying into. Some will take the chance at a new modder and a new mod, but if they mess up on anything, that piece of equipment will be sold and won't be bought from again. as the process continues, modders that had their chance and blew it will either drop prices or drop out of the game. That's how the business is.
As you said, authentic doesn't mean good, and a lot of vapers that do continually invest their hard earned cash on authentics have the experience to see and know if something has potential. If it looks like it'll vape well, we'll take the chance. If we like the design, we'll take the chance. And chances are, if we like it, there'll be a review and hype will build and people will buy it and China will eventually clone it because it's popular and then... well, you buy the clone.
The thing is, one of the reasons I got into authentics and high end gear is because I wanted to get the best vape experience I could and continue to do so. Yeah, I probably spent more than your average clone-purchaser, but I've tried so many mods/attys out there just from being able to sell my gear closer to RRP or trade my gear for other high end stuff. The value of used authentic high end gear is more likely to stay higher than clone gear. You buy a Caravela clone for $35, and sell for... what? $20 maybe? Less maybe? Whereas you buy a legit caravela for $200-300 and sell for $200-300 within seconds, or trade for most every high end atty/mod you've set your eyes on. And the process continues until you're done. Which never happens in most cases. Hah!
And there goes my little rant. Lol
Listen, I'm cheap. I buy cheap shit, almost exclusively. And I rarely buy "brand name"
WHEN I buy ANY high end products, it's because the cheap shit (clones) are junk. That's when I latch onto a "brand". This is the ONLY problem.
Everyone says they don't support the logos, but I'd bet if this was a clone handcheck, most of the clone supporters have the logo copies...
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WHEN I buy ANY high end products, it's because the cheap shit (clones) are junk. That's when I latch onto a "brand". This is the ONLY problem.
Everyone says they don't support the logos, but I'd bet if this was a clone handcheck, most of the clone supporters have the logo copies...
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My only problem with clones is when thay copy the artwork .
The engraved logos and designs should be off limits .
Or bought .
DAY-VAPE
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It comes down to two things for me:
Availability and Cost.
Simple as that. I would love to buy all authentics if I could... Just not the case for me either. Some of the prices for devices seem a bit steep if you ask me anyway!
Availability and Cost.
Simple as that. I would love to buy all authentics if I could... Just not the case for me either. Some of the prices for devices seem a bit steep if you ask me anyway!
Personally I look at it this way. I would never pay more than 150 bucks for a metal tube, so the original maker is not losing out on a sale. Not that I don't find them pretty, but it's just not up for debate in my house to spend that kind of mulah on an ecig. I own 3 original mods ( each for less than 80 bucks) and 3 original toppers (each for less than 40 bucks). My question to the makers of the originals would be "How many people who purchase the clones would have ponied up the money for yours, or just not bought one at all and bought something else instead?" Just my 2 cents
Yes, because I bitched about spending over 200 a month on cigs as well
GargoyleK1
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I buy clones… I might buy an authentic if it was priced decently. But getting corn holed to the tune of 200 to 300 bucks for an "original" just doesn't make financial sense to me..
Its like paying 200 to 300 bucks for a set of Dre Beats headphones which literally cost 18 bucks to make. (I know they cost 18 bucks to make).
So in conclusion…. Elite price does not make an elite product. Just makes you feel like it does. My clones work just fine and keep me from going totally broke.
Its like paying 200 to 300 bucks for a set of Dre Beats headphones which literally cost 18 bucks to make. (I know they cost 18 bucks to make).
So in conclusion…. Elite price does not make an elite product. Just makes you feel like it does. My clones work just fine and keep me from going totally broke.
Recently I won an Overdose mod from Rip. It has "SIKASTITS" on it instead of a serial number.
Now, I would never buy it on my own but this thing is fucking amazing. I love it and it would be worth every penny of the 250$ it costs.
But there is a market for clones and they serve a very important purpose: to get us poor people to stay off cigs. Not everyone can throw down 250$ for a mod and nor should they have to. I have seen some shitty clones but I have also seen some beautiful ones. For 40 bucks you can go and buy something you may or may not like is much easier to swallow than buying a 250$ mod you may or may not like.
Now, I would never buy it on my own but this thing is fucking amazing. I love it and it would be worth every penny of the 250$ it costs.
But there is a market for clones and they serve a very important purpose: to get us poor people to stay off cigs. Not everyone can throw down 250$ for a mod and nor should they have to. I have seen some shitty clones but I have also seen some beautiful ones. For 40 bucks you can go and buy something you may or may not like is much easier to swallow than buying a 250$ mod you may or may not like.
Rick S
Member For 4 Years
Why is there no authentic mod maker out there who can make decent mods and attys for the price of, lets say 10 to 20 for a decent atty and up to 50 bucks for a mod? This is still more than most of the china clones. I was never one to pay big money just for a name brand. Craftsmanship, cost of materials I know these are part of the cost of manufacturing,I still do not see were such a huge price gap comes from. Ford Focus compared to a lamborghini, I can see the difference, authentic metal tube and clone metal tube I don't see it.
GargoyleK1
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But I can buy 4 clones for the price of one "original".
And that extremely expensive original is just a clone of a flashlight… LOL!!!
And that extremely expensive original is just a clone of a flashlight… LOL!!!
GargoyleK1
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Well actually the tool guy came by the shop a few weeks ago selling a 530 dollar flashlight… I never laughed so hard!!!
3 days after that I saw the exact same flashlight (which I later learned was a clone, but with a better warranty) for a 1/5th of the price sold at my local home improvement store.
So I guess… If you have the money to burn and it floats your boat, spend the high dollars… I can tell you that clone flashlight and the original when compared side by side were impossible for either me or the tool guy to tell apart. Except for the red piece of tape on the "fake".
Oh and you could charge your smart phone with it.. And a few other largely useless things for real world people.
3 days after that I saw the exact same flashlight (which I later learned was a clone, but with a better warranty) for a 1/5th of the price sold at my local home improvement store.
So I guess… If you have the money to burn and it floats your boat, spend the high dollars… I can tell you that clone flashlight and the original when compared side by side were impossible for either me or the tool guy to tell apart. Except for the red piece of tape on the "fake".
Oh and you could charge your smart phone with it.. And a few other largely useless things for real world people.
FIrst off, I am not an authentic mod elitist and definitely don't shun clone users at my local store. That said….
I don't buy clones. My dad bought a Chi clone and it's a piece of shit. I felt so bad for him that I gave him a Bagua that was collecting dust. I am all about quality over quantity in everything I do. Buy once cry once type shit… That said my dad bought me a Stillare clone and I was shocked as to how well it performs. I have way more than enough gear and don't plan on purchasing anything at the moment but if I DO, I'd probably buy an authentic Stillare to support the American company that created and manufactured it.
I don't buy clones. My dad bought a Chi clone and it's a piece of shit. I felt so bad for him that I gave him a Bagua that was collecting dust. I am all about quality over quantity in everything I do. Buy once cry once type shit… That said my dad bought me a Stillare clone and I was shocked as to how well it performs. I have way more than enough gear and don't plan on purchasing anything at the moment but if I DO, I'd probably buy an authentic Stillare to support the American company that created and manufactured it.
Yea every time I bought something made from china I had to either improve it or fix it. Bought a caravela for my son and almost blew his leg off because it did not have a nylon protector on the neg. end that must cost a whopping penny. So I have found with them it is a hit or miss always..
GargoyleK1
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I hear ya… I'm more looking at the 400 dollar savings for a "like" product. For example I own a Maraxus clone. It appears very well made. Threads are very nice, machining is very nice, construction is very nice. It feels like I could punch a hole in a cider block wall with it. It's beefy. Works great and I paid 40 bucks for it. I believe it is worth 40 bucks. But I have no idea at all what an original goes for.
Same with my KayFun. Its a clone. For all intents and purposes it feels, looks, and works like a quality product. No complaints at all. Also paid about 40 bucks for it. Once again no idea what an original sells for. Matter of fact I have never even seen an original of either of these. On the web or in person.
So whats a guy to do?
I'm not sure that is what they were trying to get across. I understand where your coming from though.
I just get the feeling that people think because knockoff bullshit is available, then you're an idiot for buying the "real thing"
As I've said before, I only have bullshit china jerseys, but I hate the NFL and would never spend that kinda money on what amounts to a beer rag once a year...
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As I've said before, I only have bullshit china jerseys, but I hate the NFL and would never spend that kinda money on what amounts to a beer rag once a year...
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GargoyleK1
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You've missed my point…
OMG...... Is this gonna be a daily/weekly thread in this forum too ? .....Who gives a shit....... buy what you want, buy what you can afford, buy what works well for you.
I need a reason to eat my "Drama Popcorn" and this provides nicely
thechinaman
Member For 4 Years
The interesting thing to me that most folks who knowingly buy clones seem to have conveniently ignored is that purchasing counterfeit products, whether the trademark is registered or not, shows a complete lack of integrity on the part of the purchaser. I understand that not everyone makes a lot of money. But you have the choice of how to allocate your funds. In fact that is the entire purpose of money. When you choose to buy a knockoff of anything you are saying fuck you to someone's hard work.
The staying off smokes thing is bullshit as well. Plenty of people quit smoking with an ego. You do not need a mech mod and an rba to quit. You certainly don't need a chna 30 Hana clone.
Let me explain. There are a number of cheap China mechs that work very well. Some work as well as anything made in limited runs from USA or Europe. People buy clones because they want something that looks a certain way, but for some reason have decided that they shouldn't have to pay what the producer wants them to. I would guess that many of you could afford to buy authentics, you just choose not to.
Also to all the guys who say "I could make one in my garage for $30" or "it's just a flashlight" I would invite you to try making a mod. Make it 22mm. Make the switch so it doesn't get a hot button. Make it work for various batteries and atomizers. Then come tell me how much it cost you.
Gixxer, from Diablo mods posted a breakdown of how much it cost him to produce the reaver, an authentic mech mod he sells for around $100. It cost $3000 for 10 prototypes from the cncer. He makes something like $15 profit on every one he sells. Less if he's selling to shops. He has come out and said that with the current trends of cloning etc he will most likely be out of business by the end of the year.
So at the end of the day I'm back to my original point. Buying, producing, or supporting clones shows nothing but a lack of integrity.
The staying off smokes thing is bullshit as well. Plenty of people quit smoking with an ego. You do not need a mech mod and an rba to quit. You certainly don't need a chna 30 Hana clone.
Let me explain. There are a number of cheap China mechs that work very well. Some work as well as anything made in limited runs from USA or Europe. People buy clones because they want something that looks a certain way, but for some reason have decided that they shouldn't have to pay what the producer wants them to. I would guess that many of you could afford to buy authentics, you just choose not to.
Also to all the guys who say "I could make one in my garage for $30" or "it's just a flashlight" I would invite you to try making a mod. Make it 22mm. Make the switch so it doesn't get a hot button. Make it work for various batteries and atomizers. Then come tell me how much it cost you.
Gixxer, from Diablo mods posted a breakdown of how much it cost him to produce the reaver, an authentic mech mod he sells for around $100. It cost $3000 for 10 prototypes from the cncer. He makes something like $15 profit on every one he sells. Less if he's selling to shops. He has come out and said that with the current trends of cloning etc he will most likely be out of business by the end of the year.
So at the end of the day I'm back to my original point. Buying, producing, or supporting clones shows nothing but a lack of integrity.
Clones have their place. Not everyone can afford Authentic high end mods. Not all clones are 1:1 perfect and as good as the real ones.Vendors that knowingly steal from an American makers in the US market should be held up to a standard. I like what HANA has started doing, and that was to start suing vendors. I have a authentic HANA in my case, if a vendor in my B&M market started selling HANA clones with the HANA logo anywhere on it. I would take this as you are stealing from me. With the same breath, I did hear HANA has stopped production because of the clones. The price has gone up on real HANA's now, I can charge more, does charging more make me just as wrong as the vendors selling fake Hana? It's comes down to what people feel is morally correct and how selfish they are. Will I sell a Chi You clone? All fucking day! Will I sell a ZNA clone coming out this month. No fucking way.
