Discussion in 'New Builders Corner' started by Bgh723, Nov 4, 2017.
Retailer's place themselves in jeopardy.
We no longer attempt to push a customer toward RTA/RDA tanks. We do have a few in stock for experienced advanced vapor's but all in all the few we sell is hardly worth the risk. To many lawsuit's nationwide due to user error and many of these cases are do to a "bad build". We are the largest privately owned retail company in SW Florida. 80% of our staff have been with us for years. We pride ourselves on CS and product knowledge. We feel our people are as qualified to sell all devices and liquid as any company in the country. Having said that, we feel the risk reward factor by allowing someone to walk out of our store and build a coil without long term experience is a risk we are not willing to take. Manufacture's, to their credit have developed great sub-ohm tanks so as to produce great flavor without having to build a coil, to save a few dollars. We pay thousands for product liability but we are not confident that turning in a few claims, again because of user error, will cause us to close our doors if our insurance will be canceled or will be so expensive we can not afford it or worse yet, try passing the cost on to our loyal customers who could care less about HUGH CLOUDS or flavor that tastes a little better for a few more days.
For the most part, the only danger in building come when building coils for mech mods. Regulated mods will not fire a bad coil. As a retailer, all you can really do is give customers a warning and direction on how to use ohms law and sell proper batteries when selling mechanical mods. Retailers can not be held accountable for user error. Otherwise car manufacturers would be sued for every fender bender. Just make sure you sell to legal age customers. Give warnings and advice when you feel they are needed.
The way you make it sound, is to scare new vapers away from coil building so you can sell your premade coils. Coil building is not rocket science. A couple feet of wasted wire and most people can get the hang of building their own coils. Personally, I will not by any atomizer tank that is not rebuildable.
Retail is supply and demand. If you can't supply what we demand, we go elsewhere. I only buy from one shop, but if they stopped selling what I want, I would have to find another retailer.
Seems to me, those deeming regulations prohibit retailers from showing customers how to build coils anyway? I'm not sure how you could be sued if someone bought wire and made their own coils, unless your staff was ignoring FDA deeming regulation. Personally, I think that is a stupid idea anyway. Someone needs to show people how to at least wrap a simple coil. Vape shops are the go to spot for information, even above google.
@gbalkam You hit the nail on the head. No animizer or tank I can not rebuild. Store wanted me to have building classes every week but I was only allowed Kanger sub tanks so the owner could push them. He would get mad at me for telling people they are horrible tanks for leaking. I stopped the classes because I did not want anyone coming back on me because of being sold a leaky tank. I quit doing classes and walked away from the store.
I had no issues with STM leaking when using rba head. Maybe clones? Don't blame you for walking away. Owner was obviously not interested in helping customers learn coil building skills. None of the shops here have workshops. YT taught me how to build and stay safe.
I have a kanger toptank and it only leaks if I leave the airflow open. The trick is, to make sure you have everything lined up and seated properly when you clean the tank or change a coil. A loose coil will leak, and a mis-threaded chimney will leak. Wicking the RBA Mini is easy with the "bunny ears" method. And once you wet the wick--DO NOT TOUCH IT. lol.
What in God's name would they teach at a weekly building class? My building class was youtube and steamengine.org. How hard is it to wrap a wire around a screwdriver? LOL. I suppose there are those that might need the classes just because they lack confidence and need to be shown a few times, which is ok too. My advice to new builders is wire is cheap. If you mess up, just build a new coil. (Im guessing maybe 7 cents worth of wire per coil) vs 2.99 for premade. I can F up a lot of coils for $2.99. LOL.
*I actually found a 3m (11ft) spool of prewrapped alien wire on fasttech. It works pretty good for flavor coils. I use it when I can't be bothered to wind my own claptons.
You do understand that you can sell RDAs and RTAs WITHOUT putting coils in them for people right?
You also understand that a lawyer can whip up a "Buy at your own risk / I understand the dangers of this device" document that you can force people to read and sign before buying said RTAs / RDAs as well correct?
Of course I'm going to scare vapor's from advancing unless they have experience with building. Show someone? We have people who forget "click 5 times to turn on".
There is no advantage for a retailer to sell anything that may jeopardize his business or the safety of his customers. Disclaimer's are not worth the paper they are written on. One of the comments above stated we want to sell prebuilt coils but thats not true. We also know that RDA/RTA used on regulated mods are safe but again, once the customer leaves the store, if they choose to put them on a mec mod anything can go wrong. Our primary goal is to get people off combustible tobacco, not create a hobby for cloud chasers by those trying to create a new market because they do not have the ability to bring in new vapors. A man or woman, lets say in their 50's were told by their Dr to quit smoking. They walk in to your shop and its filled with clouds. Get the picture?
can’t you sell them with a disclaimer OP? like every other retailer does. I fully appreciate selling rebuildables to complete newbies with no experience or understanding is a worthwhile endeavour but there are differences as to how they choose to use those products ...I.e on a mechanical vs regulated mod for instance.
subohms can be dangerous too, I’ve had some shitty pre made coils where the QC was so poor the bloody things short but continued to fire ...are you going to stop selling those to?
Actually I’m yet to use a pre made coil from Smok that I haven’t had to sort out myself before I use it ...the seal is always lose with wires sticking out ....I’m willing to bet that’s a major portion of your sales
Uwell is another culprit
See, it really has nothing to do with building, RDAs/ RTa's at all.
all it takes is for ONE doofus to walk into your shop and buy an Atlantis tank and/or a single 18650 cell.
the doofus takes it home where his SMPL clone he bought from fasttech for 9 bucks is waiting and puts everything together.
eventually the incompatible atlantis tank / mech with hybrid top cap will explode.
the doofus decides to sue somebody.
he sure as hell ain't suing fasttech is he?
Exactly this ^^^ offering newbies as much advice as you can before sale demonstrates you have taken necessary precautions
what joe public decides to do after that ...well that’s on them isn’t it? they end up in forums like ours in a lot of cases, we get plenty of people say I want to build this or that way and advice is further provided
Unfortuantely the Darwin Award will always be available to those who can be bothered to research ....
I do believe sub ohms are a good way to start vaping though and more often than not MTL non fog machines too ....getting some noob off the street wanting a mech and an RDA off the bat should give a vendor a red flag to act responsibly
So by not helping people and show them the right way could harm them right ...they are going to go do it anyway with or without your help, so at least steer them to a forum to ask
I can tell you this from experience. When Smok, for example is turning out devices left and right the QC has to suffer. The popular name is why we sell Smok. Melo 300 tank is a better tank for the price.
So you are willing to sell mods that have many hundreds of documented cases of mods randomly dying, firing, catching fire and a whole host of any other DANGEROUS issues because they are popular? Do you frequent any of these forums? Beginners have plenty of issues with premade coils for subohm tanks because of inconsistent performance and shops pushing setups that are way too powerful for what they are usually after.
Sorry but your premise sounds like a way to push more product that gets you repeat business. I understand, you have a business to run but don't expect your sales pitch to get a good reception among people who know better.
All I did was express and opinion based on experience and my negative opinion about builds and cloud chasers. Please don't feel as though you should or have the ability to educate me. Sales pitch? LOL
I don’t think he was trying to educate you here rather highlight the hypocrasy of your original post and the fact you knowingly sell products with documented issues because they have a big brand presence?
So if someone goes away and one of those products has a fault who’s liability is it then?
The manafacturers I guess (not your problem) do you care about the end consumer in these cases? Actually reading back you didn’t say your cared in the first post either just concerned about staying in business
Have to say Bgh not a good start here for you...at the end of the day this forum hosts the consumers who buy those products so you can see how the approach you took in this post is not going to be received well ...fully expect a shit storm when some members get going
Thank you for clearing it up @KingPin!, that's exactly what I meant. You are concerned about a liability regarding rebuildables but are ok with the shouldering the liability when it comes to a faulty product whose manufacture demonstrates they have no interest in recalls or responsibility.
Either you are grossly misinformed and draw poor conclusions or you are trying to sell something.
This also applies to Tanks with factory coils, actually greater risk if they pop it on a faux hybrid Mech when they walk out your door. Get the picture?
First of all we sell what the public wants. I never denied that. My premise was about coil building and my contempt for catering to cloud chaser 's. You all can spin it into anything you want. There's problems with sub OHM tanks and any mod, no shit. This may be my first attempt at this thread but not my first day in business. We GAVE away hundreds of starter kits each year to anyone who wanted to stop smoking but didn't want to invest money without knowing wether vape would work. We can no longer do that. Someone comes in new and we try to get them into something like a T18. Everyone leaves with a battery safety notice in their bag. I'm sorry if I missed "concern". I thought i may have covered that when I stated our primary goal was to keep people from using combustible tobacco. Look blogs and threads are loaded with people like you and your buddy trolling for a victim but if your ever in Cape Coral Fl look me up and I'll give you both a lesson on how to run a successful electronic cigarette store.
OP, are you also against diy juice makers? Just curious. My guess is you would also find the practice “dangerous” (to your interests)
I chuck fairly substantial clouds. Not because I feel cool. But because the sensation I get from an rda, higher wattage, and higher vg leaves me feeling more satisfied. Most of my clouds are chucked where nobody can see them. Tried with lower powered devices. Left me wanting a different feel.
Plus, the hobby end of building keeps me more invested in not smoking cigs. Same with making juice.
Most of us will agree with you on first time Vapers and in general most of the public you cater to are best suited and are perfectly happy with "kits" with factory coils. But there are a good sizable group of Vapers that are into building. To spin it as a safety issue is what we're taking issue with.
additionally not all of us are Clouds Bro that build, there's a rather good sized group that are Tootie Puffers
I wonder if they sell Kanger Subbox kits in their store? They include a potentially dangerous RBA kit with all the makings to assemble it.
Driving is substantially more dangerous than building
I was just wondering if his shop also sells garbage rewrap batteries. If I had to guess....
You stated above you "...sell what the public wants." So, if any person, who by definition is a member of the public, walks into your store, you will sell them an RDA, even if they're a complete beginner? I'm confused here? What about someone who wants to chuck clouds at .008 ohms? Will you sell him anything he wants? He's also a member of the public.
What started out as a good idea sure went shitty today, didn't it?
Look, as long as someone comes in with building experience I feel ok with selling an RDA/RTA. Should they say no, we try to get them into a Sub OHM tank. Not about money. The prices are comparable. Everyone knows juice pays the bills.
Depends on reading comprehension slick.
Apparently you have no knowledge of retail sales. My staff sells what they want after a 2 minute conversation and its based on what they think is best is for the customer unless they come in and say I would like one of those. A new vapor will never walk out with a sub ohm tank or an RDA/RTA. We no longer stock MMod but we do carry wire and Koh-Gen-do. Don't be confused your doing fine.
RDA's or RTA's are no more dangerous than subohm Tanks, that's the reality. You really are doing a dis-service to your customer base. My favorite local B&M maintains a small selection of RDA's and RTA's but they won't sell Mech due to the liability. Lumping RDA's and RTA's in with Mech's seriously is over reacting.
You're right, I've never worked in retail sales. I've worked with nuclear weapons though. I bet that's a bit more complicated than selling shit.
Your absolutely right as long as they are not on a mmod. Thats where the danger arises. We will also give a battery away if someone comes in with the cell exposed if they can't afford a new one.
Not everyone who builds is a "cloud chaswer" -- I've built my own coils for over 3 yrs -- 2 ohm coils which I run at 9.5w. If you think all coil builders are "hobbyist cloud chasers", you don't know the market AT ALL.
The danger isn't coil building. The danger, as ALWAYS, is stupid people who simply cannot be taught ANYTHING, because they're convinced they know everything. In which case, I can't fault you not wanting to encourage newbies to build coils, but you're doing the non-newbies a huge disservice. But maybe non-newbies are intelligent enough to learn what they need to know and buy online to get better prices.
My disdain for cloud chasers has nothing to do with limiting my risk selling RDA/RTA's. I sell them but never to a new bee. If that RDA/RTA we sell ends up on a MMod when it leaves the store and blows up due to user error we have the exposure plain and simple. My opinions and personal beliefs are not without basis. People enjoy building coils and I can appreciate that. There are some on here attempting to discredit me and say its about me trying to sell something. Not the case. I know there are many shop owners who because of finances sometime sacrifice their beliefs or sell something they would rather not and I don't judge them trying to make a living. I'm just not one of those owners. We get a bad batch of product and throw it away if we think it will effect customer safety. We just recently recalled 200 LG 18650 when we had a problem and found out they were not LG's, at our own expense. I found this blog and thought it may be fun. So far it is.
Perfect! Then you know about shit blowing like RTA/RDA's
I don't necessarily think you're just trying to "sell something" -- however, it does remain true that if a vaper is dependent on bought coils, they're at the mercy of the market -- exactly the same as when we smoked commercial cigarettes -- and that, I cannot ever like. The vaping market is still very new, and very unsettled, and nobody knows where it may go in the future, since it depends so much on what the empty-headed politicians decide to do about it -- but I just can't like the idea of encouraging people to move from one example of market-bondage to another; it completely flies in the face of what has motivated many, if not most, vapers in the first place -- getting free of cigarettes in every conceivable way.
Depend on this: when once the politicians figure out how best to get their pound of flesh, eventually we will have that bogeyman "Big Vapor" to contend with -- and those who are dependent on bought coils and bought ejuice will be at BV's mercy, just as smokers are now at BT's and BP's mercy. We need a new paradigm, and encouraging people to put themselves into just another form of bondage isn't the way to foster that new paradigm.
It IS possible to sell hazardous items, and not be liable; big box stores do it all the time, with heavy tools, sharp knives, just all kinds of things. It just takes some thinking and planning to protect yourself; the way you're currently protecting yourself is at the expense of all those vapers who need that new paradigm of self-sufficiency.
No we don't sell Kanger products except coils.
Good for anything that keeps you from smoking.
My statement about batteries had nothing at all to do with kanger products.
If you sell batteries from any other brand than sony, samsung, LG, or sanyo/panasonic, then you are selling garbage rewrapped batteries that pose much more a risk than selling rebuildables.
I've been doing this since 2010 and have watched the ever changing market as you have. 2 years ago I was less optimistic about E cigs being here very long. However, now I think the market is here to stay but it will be different. Unfortunately I know all well and good about bondage. I'm C & S 22 years. I went from owning a treatment center to e cigs because my partner had an idea. I had stopped smoking 10 years prior to vaping. I filled up a CE4 with Dekang tobacco and vaped for 2 moths before buying in with my partner. I knew I was selling another addiction but believed it would benefit thousands. I thought it may be a chance to make a difference. We have people with COPD as you would know who are grateful for shop owners like us because nothing else worked for them to stop smoking. I can't argue with you about bondage but this whole thing is. Should the time come where the only alternative be DYI and building coils I will be the first to support anything that keeps us from smoking. I still Vape and love the flavors. Nice talking to you.
Well thank you and I'll bring it up at the next board meeting.
I know of people venting batteries with too low a build on an RDA, your prebuilt coil tanks with non protruding 510’s you are pushing are the ones that usually cause hybrid mods to explode via hard short, there is a big difference between simple venting and thermal runaway via hard short.
Listen, I'm not pushing anything. I voiced an opinion about building coils and how cloud chasers can hurt the industry. I'm definitely not arguing your points about how almost everything we sell has safety issues. I probably should have been more specific with a few things in the first post.
Just a quick couple of things.
These days, you can sue anyone for anything.
And as we all well know there is a certain class of B&Ms out there where the owners (that may or may not be actual vapers) are just in it for the money and will sell anything to anyone for a few $$$.
Including Trustfire, Ultrafire (I have always loved batteries with the word "Fire" in the brand name) as well as Efest fire hazzards.
I happen to be friends with a couple that owns a few small vape shops as well as having a very successful online E-Liquid manufacturing business.
They are hardcore vapers and they really do try their best to HELP their customer find the mod/tank of their dreams.
Not what they want to sell. Just the best fit for their customers.
Then the FDA got involved so they are now forced to cover their behinds and now they are not able to show customers how to properly wrap a coil for their device.
And these fine folks know EXACTLY what they are doing. Hell, I have wrapped coils with them.
Now by law, they cannot show their customers the right way to make their own coils!
Mini Rant Over
We are in the exact same situation as your friends except we would rather face a fine then let someone leave the shop uninformed. So far so good on that front but not so good with law suite's due to user error. The larger your customer base the more exposure you have.
What I neglected to say, they make sure that any customer that needs it leaves with some links to Steam Engine and some good Youtube vids.
And I believe in there better safe than sorry viewpoint and they really wish they could actually explain and show their customers the right way to do things.
I know of people who out of fear ruined their business and now the guy up the street has it.