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Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, and Acetoin in Flavorings

RocketPuppy

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There are more than 2,000 substances used in flavoring manufacturing. The FDA regulates flavorings to ensure they are safe when eaten. Many flavorings have been in longstanding use and are classified by the FDA as "Generally Recognized as Safe" (GRAS) to eat. Thus far, the FDA does not require testing for other routes of exposure, such as inhalation. Though with new regulations, this will change in time.

Some flavoring manufacturers are using alternative substances for diacetyl in formulating flavorings. These compounds are acetoin and acetyl propionyl. Like diacetyl, these are 'GRAS' substances that are approved for use in food. Their chemical structures are very similar to diacetyl and have been found to be equally as harmful for inhalation.

Companies are not required to report if their flavorings contain less than 1% of diacetyl or diacetyl substitutes
(https://www.dir.ca.gov/title8/5197.html).

Two companies (FA and TFA) have shown that in quantities with less than 0.5%, 1000s of ppbs have been found, yet NIOSH recommends the exposure limit (REL) for vapor inhalation up to 8-31 ppb.

CDC - NIOSH flavorings exposure
OSHA- Diacetyl and Diacetyl Substitutes
FDA New Authority on E-cigarettes

1% WITHOUT REPORTING
Department of CA Diacetyl Report of Use
Diacetyl Standard Becomes Official - Cal-OSHA

FlavourArt Information
FlavourArt Clearstream

The Perfumer's Apprentice/Flavor Apprentice - Click on "List" to see flavor components
TPA Spec Sheet and Components 513-86-0
TPA Spec Sheet and Components 600-14-6

IJ - Impact of Flavor Variability

VP LIVE - interview

EUROPEAN INFORMATION
Flavor and Manufactures Association Updated List April 28, 2014
FEMA flavor - Safety/Assesment/Regulatory Flavors (E-Cigarettes)
Perfumer/Flavorist Fema


Special thanks to we2rcool =)
 

jae

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So, what flavors are these chemicals normally associated with, and are there alternative flavors which do not contain them?
 

flowerpots

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Jeremy,

The flavors that contain these chemicals are usually custards, buttery flavors, some creams, some fruits from certain companies, popcorn. There may be others. I thinks someone, or RP, will come along and answer more thoroughly.
 

RocketPuppy

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So, what flavors are these chemicals normally associated with, and are there alternative flavors which do not contain them?
These are the flavors that contain diketones: https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/componentlist.aspx. If you click on "list," it will show which specific chemicals are included. An MSDS is not a thorough enough analysis. It doesn't account for ingredients at or under 1%, so a CAS (list on the TFA site) is more thorough.
In terms of finding out which flavors from other companies contain diketones, it is impossible until they too complete Chemical Abstracts. Too many companies rely on an MSDS to show proof that they don't contain diketones. When ordering FlavourArt, items that are solely for their e-liquid line are diketone free and have been tested by http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?p=1014&lang=en.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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While not a diketone, specifically, you may want to add Butyric Acid to the list as that's what's be subbed out for Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl when absence of these chemicals is requested.

Coming from Linda from TFA, their new Vanilla Bean Gelato flavor is using BA in place of A & AP, and I just received a sample of their new French Vanilla Deluxe (Revised) which uses it as well. They aren't replacing FVD or VBIC with the revised versions, they are simply new flavors given the new chemical additive.

From what has been said, Capella is also using Butyric Acid in place of D-A-AP in their new FV v2 and VC v2 (among others, including Raspberry, Apple Pie, Graham Cracker, Peaches & Cream)
 

RocketPuppy

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While not a diketone, specifically, you may want to add Butyric Acid to the list as that's what's be subbed out for Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl when absence of these chemicals is requested.

Coming from Linda from TFA, their new Vanilla Bean Gelato flavor is using BA in place of A & AP, and I just received a sample of their new French Vanilla Deluxe (Revised) which uses it as well. They aren't replacing FVD or VBIC with the revised versions, they are simply new flavors given the new chemical additive.

From what has been said, Capella is also using Butyric Acid in place of D-A-AP in their new FV v2 and VC v2 (among others, including Raspberry, Apple Pie, Graham Cracker, Peaches & Cream)
Hey Mr. Xander. Nice to see ya over here. I would definitely add it, but it's too late to edit. Once they fix that, I will. Thank you! Luckily, you've posted the info here, so people can see it.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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No problem :) - I've been testing TFA's pre-release of French Vanilla Deluxe Revised and it's not bad, though it is different. It doesn't have a nasty taste or anything bad, though it doesn't have the same flavor notes as the original since the A-AP is missing. You still get a few buttery notes, though definitely not like what you'd get with the original.

I have 12 more coming in from Capella, of which 6 are their revised flavors, so I'll be able to see how they compare. I don't know if they are using BA in all of the revised flavors, though it seems, from what I was told, that BA is being used in their new v2 Vanilla Custard.
 

HeadInClouds

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heh-heh - we all knew it was some new substitute, right?

Who wouldn't want to vape butyric acid given the great description: "Butyric acid is a carboxylic acid found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit, and has an unpleasant odor and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether)..." Mmm-mmm - LOL!

Well, time for the chemistry textbook to see how the atoms are linked...to figure out if it would in theory interact differently than diketones do in human lung tissue. Any chemists here who can do this more efficiently than I can? (very low bar, there).
 

Jonathan Tittle

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heh-heh - we all knew it was some new substitute, right?

Who wouldn't want to vape butyric acid given the great description: "Butyric acid is a carboxylic acid found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit, and has an unpleasant odor and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether)..." Mmm-mmm - LOL!

Well, time for the chemistry textbook to see how the atoms are linked...to figure out if it would in theory interact differently than diketones do in human lung tissue. Any chemists here who can do this more efficiently than I can? (very low bar, there).

Of course :).

I can say from testing TFA's Revised FVD, it doesn't taste bad by any means. On the exhale, I get more of a cotton candy like note which is also slightly present in the one with both A & AP in it. I don't get a putrid taste, or a taste that is comparable to anything in the description of the chemical, so it has to be present in very low amounts. Linda said 2% or less, so that sounds about right as there's nothing off putting about the flavoring. It is different, but that's more so because of the absence of the custard notes that we're so familiar with.

I will say that it's not a night and day different like their Vanilla Custard and Vanilla Swirl (which is Vanilla Custard without the Custard Notes). It stays true to the same flavor profile and doesn't vary as much as those two do.

I won't be able to test Capella until Thursday it looks like. FedEx Ground tends to be slower than UPS if you can believe that lol.
 

HeadInClouds

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Capella and TFA are using Butyric Acid - do I have the name right? Surely it's something else - read the warnings on this chemical!

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1334.html
"AVOID ALL CONTACT!" "Do NOT let this chemical enter the environment." "Do not transport with food and feedstuffs. "

https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/TCI-B0754.pdf
" COMBUSTIBLE. CORROSIVE. TOXIC. Handle with caution and minimize exposure. Keep container dry. Keep away from heat and sources of ignition "

http://caledonlabs.com/upload/msds/2330-5e.pdf "Combustible liquid. Can form explosive mixtures with air at, or above, 72°C" (that's 161 Fahrenheit) " Avoid temperatures >72°C, ignition sources, ... generation of mist" and the following:

Inhaled:
No human information available. Vapours or mists probably cause mild to severe irritation, with sore throat, coughing, difficulty in breathing. Severe overexposures may cause lung damage, convulsions, respiratory failure, coma and death.

In contact with skin: Causes moderate to severe irritation depending on concentration and duration of contact. Application of undiluted chemical to human skin caused mild burning, redness and swelling after 1 hour. Some animal studies indicate that it may be absorbed through skin, causing toxic effects.

In contact with eyes:
Corrosive. Can cause permanent eye damage and blindness (based on animal testing, no human information available).

Ingested:
Oral toxicity appears to be low, based on animal testing. It is corrosive, and may cause severe irritation of the mouth, throat and stomach, with nausea and vomiting. Although there is no human information available, the physical properties of this substance indicate that aspiration of even a small amount during ingestion or vomiting could cause pulmonary edema, respiratory failure, cardiac arrest and death.


http://crescentok.com/staff/jaskew/isr/msds/butyric.htm
EPA HAZARDOUS WASTE NUMBER: D002 (CORROSIVE WASTE)
CONDITIONS TO AVOID: HEAT, FLAME, SOURCES OF IGNITION
AVOID BREATHING VAPOR

(end of quotes)

Would any flavoring company really use toxic hazardous waste??
 
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Jonathan Tittle

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This is a rich vanilla flavor that has no Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl, or of course, Diacetyl. Instead it uses a lesser known custard note called Butyric Acid.

This is the ingredient that other flavor companies are now using to replace Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl for flavors like Vanilla Custard, and we were asked to create similar substitutions. We want to stress that Butyric Acid can also be a source of irritation to the lungs.

It is still a custard note, but usually is only used in traces, as too much of it can give an unpleasant note to a flavor. Butyric Acid is found in milk, butter, and cheeses. In fact, Butyric Acid occurs at about 2.9% in butter.

Butyric Acid is a healthy addition to foods, and a good article about this can be found here

http://www.livingthenourishedlife.com/2010/10/is-butter-healthy-part-one-butyric-acid

That's the information from TFA - From reading the article, it's fine for ingestion as it's naturally occurring in butter (which Linda confirmed), though inhalation is sketchy.

I know that Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl are all toxic in large doses, which is why they are heavily diluted, just as Butyric Acid is. This is simply something that is better suited for ingestion and digestion, when naturally occurring, than it is for inhalation.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Would any flavoring company really use toxic hazardous waste??

Well...It's not really flavor manufacturers as in, just them. We're exposed to toxic chemicals on a daily basis. It's the dosage.

Fluoride is definitely toxic and can easily kill you in certain amounts, however, it's used in toothpaste, mouthwash, city water and even in water for babies. In the smaller dosages, it's non-lethal, though it's the larger doses that you have to be concerned with. That's just one example, even though it doesn't relate to inhalation - it relates specifically to concentration, which is important here.

That said, since most flavoring is specifically designed for ingestion not inhalation, small amounts of BA wouldn't be toxic as described (which the descriptions there are for the concentrated form, I believe).
 

HeadInClouds

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Well...It's not really flavor manufacturers as in, just them. We're exposed to toxic chemicals on a daily basis. It's the dosage.

Fluoride is definitely toxic and can easily kill you in certain amounts, however, it's used in toothpaste, mouthwash, city water and even in water for babies. In the smaller dosages, it's non-lethal, though it's the larger doses that you have to be concerned with. That's just one example, even though it doesn't relate to inhalation - it relates specifically to concentration, which is important here.

That said, since most flavoring is specifically designed for ingestion not inhalation, small amounts of BA wouldn't be toxic as described (which the descriptions there are for the concentrated form, I believe).

Of course, all of that. But the MSDS and related warnings on diacetyl were tame compared to this. Warnings on cigarettes are tame by comparison, too.

I've inquired at FlavourArt if they use butyric acid - will update here when I hear from them.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Of course, all of that. But the MSDS and related warnings on diacetyl were tame compared to this. Warnings on cigarettes are tame by comparison, too.

I've inquired at FlavourArt if they use butyric acid - will update here when I hear from them.

I was actually about to ask myself, though I'll wait to see the response you get :). Thanks for thinking ahead!

That said, I agree they (the data for D-A-AP) are relatively tame in comparison to the sheets produced for BA. I can see the healthy aspects of the natural chemical, which is found in butter and other foods, though that's for digestion. Extracted or even mad-made versions of this chemical could very well be an issue if it's really that bad and used in e-liquids.

Tom said he wasn't sure, and that's honestly where it starts and stops. Unless he's willing to check and see, or someone else knows inside the company and can provide that information, the v2 versions of their flavors may not be something to cheer about depending on the concentration levels.

I know Kimberly from OSDIY said that Linda had tested it, though unless I am mistaken (and I very well could be - lots going on when I was speaking to Linda), she said another vendor had tested it and it was found, but not in what concentration (speaking of their Vanilla Custard v2).
 

RocketPuppy

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Of course, all of that. But the MSDS and related warnings on diacetyl were tame compared to this. Warnings on cigarettes are tame by comparison, too.

I've inquired at FlavourArt if they use butyric acid - will update here when I hear from them.
Thank you for doing this.
 

HeadInClouds

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I have made contact with a chemist at FlavourArt. Now we are dealing with the language barrier of scientific lingo, plus a time zone difference, so it may take some days to complete the communication. But I will persist until I have the answers I need. I'll update with definitive info as I get it.

In the meantime, here is a quick chemistry vocabulary lesson. 'Butryic Acid' is the name given to any molecule of C4H8O2 (4 carbon, 8 hydrogen, 2 oxygen atoms). There are numerous ways those atoms can be arranged to form a molecule. Each different configuration (each isomer) has a specific name. Here's a graphic showing some butryic acid isomers and their names: http://members.optushome.com.au/scottsoftb/functional4.htm EDIT: (was a bad link; fixed it 9/22/2014)

As vapers, our first Big Question is which butryic acid isomer (if any) is in the flavoring. Then we'll go from there...
 
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HeadInClouds

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After corresponding with a FlavourArt chemist and someone there in production, I have the answers I needed. A form of butyric acid is used as part of FA's production process for some flavorings, but it is not present in this form in their finished flavorings. After some research, my concerns are satisfied. For the curious, here are the details I gathered from the emails and my basic knowledge of chemistry.

First, the classic example of a chemical reaction. Elemental sodium is an explosively reactive metal. Elemental chlorine is a highly-toxic gas. When combined they react chemically to form plain old salt - a completely different substance with different physical properties. FlavourArt uses butyric acid and alcohol to produce a chemical reaction, and the resulting new molecules are used in (tiny bits of some of) their flavorings.

Recalling that butyric acid is a carboxylic acid, here is a good explanation of the chemistry involved: http://www.chemguide.co.uk/organicprops/alcohols/esterification.html. So you are vaping a different molecule - a particular ester which happens to also exists in most (actual) fruit.

My own comments:
A 'natural/organic' flavoring might obtain this same ester directly from actual fruit, but the process FA is using ensures they're producing only the molecule they want. There's some discussion on their website concerning why artificial flavorings may be preferable to natural/organic because they contain only known molecules - and this process seems to be a good example.

Is this the same chemistry TFA and Capella are starting to use? I don't know. Are they starting with the same forms of the base chemicals? We will never know that truly proprietary info. If you read the above link on esterification, you'll see proper distillation is required after the esterification to prevent reformation of butyric acid. FA has years of experience at it - and personally, I trust FA to do it right. They work with toxicologists to test actual vapor of their flavorings for cytotoxicity, unlike any other flavoring company. They took time to explain their process and the chemistry involved. I doubt Capella will be at all forthcoming, but those of you who have corresponded with Linda at TFA can likely get info as detailed from her. I know she has been very helpful with technical details in the past.
 

kelli

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see, i don't sweat it too much if there might be miniscule amounts of toxins in e-juice. i mean, compared to what we ingested into our lungs during years or decades of smoking, i think what's in e-juice is innocuous. except for the occasional itching spells, which i think is an allergic reaction to some flavorings, i feel wonderful physically. and i didn't when i smoked. i got colds, couldn't exercise without being winded, and gakked every morning.

of course, the above is only my opinion and i am vapid. :p
 

RocketPuppy

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Thank you HIC. I also really appreciate you breaking it down even further so yahoos like me can understand it.
 

HeadInClouds

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see, i don't sweat it too much if there might be miniscule amounts of toxins in e-juice. i mean, compared to what we ingested into our lungs during years or decades of smoking, i think what's in e-juice is innocuous. except for the occasional itching spells, which i think is an allergic reaction to some flavorings, i feel wonderful physically. and i didn't when i smoked. i got colds, couldn't exercise without being winded, and gakked every morning.

You and I had similar health issues before and improvements after quitting smoking, and I totally see your point of view on toxins in vapes. Vaping is obviously a huge improvement.

I'm always looking for more ways to minimize potential harm (while still vaping with abandon, lol). That's why I vape with the least possible flavoring and investigate details like this. When there are alternatives, I'm that kind of person who needs to know all the details before deciding. I hope nobody ever gets the impression I'm try to shove advice down their throat. I'm just...detail oriented.

Anyway, I used to get those itching spells. It took a while, but I tracked it to my VG. Switching to a different vendor fixed that for me. VG can be produced from varied raw ingredients, and you might have a sensitivity to one of them. That goes for VG in nic base, as an additive, and in flavorings with it (not a lot, but they exist).
 

kelli

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You and I had similar health issues before and improvements after quitting smoking, and I totally see your point of view on toxins in vapes. Vaping is obviously a huge improvement.

I'm always looking for more ways to minimize potential harm (while still vaping with abandon, lol). That's why I vape with the least possible flavoring and investigate details like this. When there are alternatives, I'm that kind of person who needs to know all the details before deciding. I hope nobody ever gets the impression I'm try to shove advice down their throat. I'm just...detail oriented.

Anyway, I used to get those itching spells. It took a while, but I tracked it to my VG. Switching to a different vendor fixed that for me. VG can be produced from varied raw ingredients, and you might have a sensitivity to one of them. That goes for VG in nic base, as an additive, and in flavorings with it (not a lot, but they exist).

thanks for the lead about the VG, sweetie. :)

and just to be clear, i didn't feel like you were forcing anything on anyone. i am ocd about some stuff too. ;)
 

Vangrl

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After corresponding with a FlavourArt chemist and someone there in production, I have the answers I needed. A form of butyric acid is used as part of FA's production process for some flavorings, but it is not present in this form in their finished flavorings. After some research, my concerns are satisfied. For the curious, here are the details I gathered from the emails and my basic knowledge of chemistry.

First, the classic example of a chemical reaction. Elemental sodium is an explosively reactive metal. Elemental chlorine is a highly-toxic gas. When combined they react chemically to form plain old salt - a completely different substance with different physical properties. FlavourArt uses butyric acid and alcohol to produce a chemical reaction, and the resulting new molecules are used in (tiny bits of some of) their flavorings.

Recalling that butyric acid is a carboxylic acid, here is a good explanation of the chemistry involved: http://www.chemguide.co.uk/organicprops/alcohols/esterification.html. So you are vaping a different molecule - a particular ester which happens to also exists in most (actual) fruit.

My own comments:
A 'natural/organic' flavoring might obtain this same ester directly from actual fruit, but the process FA is using ensures they're producing only the molecule they want. There's some discussion on their website concerning why artificial flavorings may be preferable to natural/organic because they contain only known molecules - and this process seems to be a good example.

Is this the same chemistry TFA and Capella are starting to use? I don't know. Are they starting with the same forms of the base chemicals? We will never know that truly proprietary info. If you read the above link on esterification, you'll see proper distillation is required after the esterification to prevent reformation of butyric acid. FA has years of experience at it - and personally, I trust FA to do it right. They work with toxicologists to test actual vapor of their flavorings for cytotoxicity, unlike any other flavoring company. They took time to explain their process and the chemistry involved. I doubt Capella will be at all forthcoming, but those of you who have corresponded with Linda at TFA can likely get info as detailed from her. I know she has been very helpful with technical details in the past.

I wonder if it is present in original form in TFA and capella's flavours?
 

Jonathan Tittle

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I wonder if it is present in original form in TFA and capella's flavours?

Without posting the exact contents of the e-mail exchange between Tom and I, I'll go ahead and say that unless someone who's a big mover for Capella steps up and flat out tells them we're dropping you as a vendor unless you provide us with exact information on your flavorings, you'll be hard-pressed for more information unless you test the flavors yourself. Since that most likely isn't going to happen, due to differences of opinion on exactly how harmful each of us feel D-A-AP / Butyric Acid is, then.....We have to make a choice.

Essentially, he didn't confirm or deny the presence of Butyric Acid, though he did state that they are not chasing the hype and essentially the choice of using the flavors is ours. We can use them in our e-liquid, or not.
 

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.. unless someone who's a big mover for Capella steps up and flat out tells them we're dropping you as a vendor unless you provide us with exact information on your flavorings, you'll be hard-pressed for more information unless you test the flavors yourself. ...

Jonathan, that's exactly the level of concern I've come to expect from Capella, Flavor West, Nature's Flavors, and a couple others. Secrecy, outright lies, lack of testing - very disappointing, but typical. However, FlavourArt and The Flavor Apprentice have always been forthcoming with info and supportive of vapers. FA and TFA deserve all the accolades we can give them for that.
 

Vangrl

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Without posting the exact contents of the e-mail exchange between Tom and I, I'll go ahead and say that unless someone who's a big mover for Capella steps up and flat out tells them we're dropping you as a vendor unless you provide us with exact information on your flavorings, you'll be hard-pressed for more information unless you test the flavors yourself. Since that most likely isn't going to happen, due to differences of opinion on exactly how harmful each of us feel D-A-AP / Butyric Acid is, then.....We have to make a choice.

Essentially, he didn't confirm or deny the presence of Butyric Acid, though he did state that they are not chasing the hype and essentially the choice of using the flavors is ours. We can use them in our e-liquid, or not.

um wow....

thanks for looking into this Jonathan & HIC
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Jonathan, that's exactly the level of concern I've come to expect from Capella, Flavor West, Nature's Flavors, and a couple others. Secrecy, outright lies, lack of testing - very disappointing, but typical. However, FlavourArt and The Flavor Apprentice have always been forthcoming with info and supportive of vapers. FA and TFA deserve all the accolades we can give them for that.

Yeah, I'm not exactly happy about it. I've not been a huge fan of most of their flavors (when it comes to using them in e-liquids), though Tom has always been extremely nice and easy to get in touch with, which is why that semi-statement was a bit shocking. For a larger company, or for one that is more well-known, such as Capella, I'd honestly think they would see the benefit in releasing similar information as TFA.
 

RocketPuppy

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Yeah, I'm not exactly happy about it. I've not been a huge fan of most of their flavors (when it comes to using them in e-liquids), though Tom has always been extremely nice and easy to get in touch with, which is why that semi-statement was a bit shocking. For a larger company, or for one that is more well-known, such as Capella, I'd honestly think they would see the benefit in releasing similar information as TFA.
I agree except that most of their profits come from selling to food manufacturers. I doubt it would hurt in the least if eliquid manufacturers stopped using them. Cost wise, it must not be economical or profitable to test for inhalation concerns or they'd do it.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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I agree except that most of their profits come from selling to food manufacturers. I doubt it would hurt in the least if eliquid manufacturers stopped using them. Cost wise, it must not be economical or profitable to test for inhalation concerns or they'd do it.

I'm sure the bulk of their profits come from food use, though given the popularity of their Vanilla Custard, and the fact that many bigger name e-liquids come off as having hints of it present, I'd say a little push would be all it'd take. No company wants to see a hit to their bottom line in major amounts and most want to keep their wholesale customers happy since wholesale = free advertising and distribution.
 

RocketPuppy

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I'm sure the bulk of their profits come from food use, though given the popularity of their Vanilla Custard, and the fact that many bigger name e-liquids come off as having hints of it present, I'd say a little push would be all it'd take. No company wants to see a hit to their bottom line in major amounts and most want to keep their wholesale customers happy since wholesale = free advertising and distribution.
I agree. I just wonder if the cost of testing outweighs the profits. I have no idea.
 

Smoky Blue

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okies.. i dropped HIC a note on tfa and Fa..
I did find what I was looking for @HIC.. but not for Fa..

and looking at what I am working on.. I do not need Fa info.. or not yet..

*shakes head and laughs..
too much confusion on my end today..
 
Great thread here guys, congrats!
I've just wanted to add that FW has also released some info in their website about D-A-AP values with precise percentage of each.
The info can be found here, on the left side: http://flavorwest.com/index.php/customer-service/
Curiously some of the flavours contain Acetoin but there's only one of all of theirs flavours that contains Acetylpropionyl that is Pumpkin Spice.

I've also looked up for the amounts of A and AP on TPA's website lists and I've only found the ranges of the % of the amounts. For example VC flavour ranges from >=1 and <10% of both Acetoin and Acetylpropionyl, which seems quite a big range for me - http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/componentlist.aspx?sku_search=349523

What values can be considered innocuous of both of these molecules?
Why can't other brands offer an exact value of A and AP used just like FW?
 
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HeadInClouds

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What values can be considered innocuous of both of these molecules?
Why can't other brands offer an exact value of A and AP used just like FW?

Well, 0 is definitely considered innocuous; you'll get some debate for any larger figure you mention. Those are not necessary components of flavoring, as you saw on TFA's component sheet. FlavourArt uses neither of those in their e-cig flavorings, so their values are all 0. Other manufacturers seem to be slowly realizing that 0 is the ideal, but there's a long way to go...
 

burgundyblack

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I noticed it mentioned that BA is flammable. Capella's does note which flavors they can't ship internationally because of flammability.
 

lirruping

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Some flavoring manufacturers are using alternative substances for diacetyl in formulating flavorings. These compounds are acetoin and acetyl propionyl. Like diacetyl, these are 'GRAS' substances that are approved for use in food. Their chemical structures are very similar to diacetyl and have been found to be equally as harmful for inhalation.

Thank you for this great resource list, RocketPuppy!

I am late to the party, but I have this to add, after just listening to the Russ Wishtart inverview with Dr. Konstantin Farsalinos (who, as anyone reading this probably knows, is a research scientist studying the chemical composition and effects of vaporizing e-liquid). Thanks to @vangyrl for posting it over on the Diacetyl Acetyl Propionyl thread in vendor forums.

The issue of acetoin in vape flavorings seems to be a common concern and one I have not found much information on. The following is my attempt to transcribe a very small part of what IMO is an extremely worthwhile conversation for vapers to take in. There is a little paraphrasing, some extrapolation--indicated--and the emphasis is all mine. I kept as true to Dr. F's words as I could while still keeping it intelligible--I hope I have done that and not further confused the issue. Please refer to the audio link above if anything seems unclear. The big take-away for me regarding acetoin is that it may actually be an entirely safe alternative to diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in e-liquid flavorings.

In the interview with Russ Wishtart, starting at about 99 minutes in, Dr. Farsalinos responds to a caller concerned about acetoin in flavorings and discusses the relationship of acetoin to diacetyl:

"Acetoin is one of the chemicals that produce a buttery flavor. It is one of the three main chemicals that produce this flavor. The other ones are of course diacetyl and acetyl propionyl. Acetoin by itself is not a reason for concern...however, since...during the production of acetoin diacetyl is also produced, it is possible that the [diacetyl] contamination issue we saw [in our study]--in some liquids that contained diacetyl, but not at very high levels, so [our conclusion was that in those cases] it is not intentionally added [and we theorize that] the contamination levels that we found may have come from acetoin.

Therefore, you may get an acetoin flavoring which is not very pure acetoin but contains traces, or somewhat higher levels of diacetyl... So from this perspective, it is a problem. But acetoin itself, as a substance, is not a problem when inhaled. Unless--and this is something we are going to test--unless acetoin is transformed into diacetyl during heating. ... It's very unlikely that [diacetyl] will come out during the steeping process or [over time sitting in a bottle] but, by heating, there is a possibility that we have to check, whether when you heat acetoin [to the temperatures used in e-cigarettes] that there is a production of diacetyl. We have to check that to make sure, otherwise, acetoin is not a reason for concern by itself."

BTW, the podcast title is about Russ's personal testing of two Suicide Bunny liquids, but the real meat of the exchange is much broader and more valuable than a tidbit regarding two juices by one vendor. If anyone knows where to get a real transcript of this podcast/interview with Dr. Farsalinos--or how to contact the interviewer to ask--I would be grateful to know!
__________

EDIT: For anyone who doesn't want to wade through all this, the main points about acetoin I understand Dr. Farsalino to have made in his conversation with Russ Wishtart are these:

-> Pure acetoin inhaled into the lungs is not a health risk.
-> Diacetyl is produced (presumably as a by-product) in the production of acetoin & as a result, flavors/juices which have no added Diacetyl may end up with trace or contamination amounts present anyway.
-> There is reason to believe that acetoin may transform into diacetyl during heating. He plans to do testing on that.

I'd bet this has been discussed to death already somewhere else and I have missed it; I just figure it is important enough to risk repeating. I, for one, am having a hell of time finding my bearings on these kinds of topics!
 
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Smoky Blue

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Thank you for this great resource list, RocketPuppy!

I am late to the party, but I have this to add, after just listening to the Russ Wishtart inverview with Dr. Konstantin Farsalinos (who, as anyone reading this probably knows, is a research scientist studying the chemical composition and effects of vaporizing e-liquid). Thanks to @vangyrl for posting it over on the Diacetyl Acetyl Propionyl thread in vendor forums.

The issue of acetoin in vape flavorings seems to be a common concern and one I have not found much information on. The following is my attempt to transcribe a very small part of what IMO is an extremely worthwhile conversation for vapers to take in. There is a little paraphrasing, some extrapolation--indicated--and the emphasis is all mine. I kept as true to Dr. F's words as I could while still keeping it intelligible--I hope I have done that and not further confused the issue. Please refer to the audio link above if anything seems unclear. The big take-away for me regarding acetoin is that it may actually be an entirely safe alternative to diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in e-liquid flavorings.

In the interview with Russ Wishtart, starting at about 99 minutes in, Dr. Farsalinos responds to a caller concerned about acetoin in flavorings and discusses the relationship of acetoin to diacetyl:

"Acetoin is one of the chemicals that produce a buttery flavor. It is one of the three main chemicals that produce this flavor. The other ones are of course diacetyl and acetyl propionyl. Acetoin by itself is not a reason for concern...however, since...during the production of acetoin diacetyl is also produced, it is possible that the [diacetyl] contamination issue we saw [in our study]--in some liquids that contained diacetyl, but not at very high levels, so [our conclusion was that in those cases] it is not intentionally added [and we theorize that] the contamination levels that we found may have come from acetoin.

Therefore, you may get an acetoin flavoring which is not very pure acetoin but contains traces, or somewhat higher levels of diacetyl... So from this perspective, it is a problem. But acetoin itself, as a substance, is not a problem when inhaled. Unless--and this is something we are going to test--unless acetoin is transformed into diacetyl during heating. ... It's very unlikely that [diacetyl] will come out during the steeping process or [over time sitting in a bottle] but, by heating, there is a possibility that we have to check, whether when you heat acetoin [to the temperatures used in e-cigarettes] that there is a production of diacetyl. We have to check that to make sure, otherwise, acetoin is not a reason for concern by itself."

BTW, the podcast title is about Russ's personal testing of two Suicide Bunny liquids, but the real meat of the exchange is much broader and more valuable than a tidbit regarding two juices by one vendor. If anyone knows where to get a real transcript of this podcast/interview with Dr. Farsalinos--or how to contact the interviewer to ask--I would be grateful to know!


and this is why i am interested in the heat testing :)

this is what i have been saying for the last week, when nicvapes explained to me on Acetoin..
at a pure state (100%) it will not give off the "big d" but at an impure state, 99% to 73% it will.

heat testing for this would help.. but a singular test for inhalation would be even more helpful..

thanks for those links, @lirruping :)
 

lirruping

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Also, a flavor vendor I recently corresponded with go--to the best of my understanding--the relationship between diacetyl and acetoin backward in their reply to a query I made. (This kind of mistake is not hard to make, so this is not about me bashing a vendor, but from my point of view, in this context, open information trumps other concerns.)

My email question to Nicvape on 11/29/14:

I'm very interested in your sale on flavors on Monday. I was glad to read that you don't use diacetyl or acetyl propionyl in your products. I have heard, however, that some of your flavors include acetoin. Is this true? If so, kindly let me know which ones contain this chemical so that I may avoid them.

Nicvape's answer:

"Acetoin is generally produced when you burn diacetyl. Since our e-liquids are diacetyl and acetyl propanol [sic] free it would be hard to test for this by product."
 

Smoky Blue

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Also, a flavor vendor I recently corresponded with go--to the best of my understanding--the relationship between diacetyl and acetoin backward in their reply to a query I made. (This kind of mistake is not hard to make, so this is not about me bashing a vendor, but from my point of view, in this context, open information trumps other concerns.)

My email question to Nicvape on 11/29/14:

I'm very interested in your sale on flavors on Monday. I was glad to read that you don't use diacetyl or acetyl propionyl in your products. I have heard, however, that some of your flavors include acetoin. Is this true? If so, kindly let me know which ones contain this chemical so that I may avoid them.

Nicvape's answer:

"Acetoin is generally produced when you burn diacetyl. Since our e-liquids are diacetyl and acetyl propanol [sic] free it would be hard to test for this by product."


i can understand lirruping ;)

they are working on bringing flavors out, they know they have only a few with acetoin, but.. i think they are doing more work with testing and other such things.. give them a bit of time, and i think the company will shine.. they are rather small, but good people trying to do their best..

the one thing that tickles me is that they do use outside labs for testing and consult with people that have been around..

it is a few of the creams.. but like i said, they are working on things..
 

lirruping

Gold Contributor
Member For 5 Years
and this is why i am interested in the heat testing :)

this is what i have been saying for the last week, when nicvapes explained to me on Acetoin..
at a pure state (100%) it will not give off the "big d" but at an impure state, 99% to 73% it will.

heat testing for this would help.. but a singular test for inhalation would be even more helpful..

thanks for those links, @lirruping :)

Me too-- I am looking forward to heat testing! My web research skills leave a lot to be desired, so if you know of any sites I should be watching for info & further research on this topic, I would be really grateful! :)

EDIT: I just realized that the site to watch for further research on e-liquids and vaping by this particular scientist (Farsalinos) is: http://www.ecigarette-research.com/
 
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