Diketones, Oils, Sugars; All-in-one page: FA, TPA, FLV, CAP, FW, LB, etc

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - General Discussion' started by Mikser, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Long time lurker, first time poster. This website helped me so much and i felt that i need to contribute somehow (since i can't be of much help with my mixes yet). Note: I posted this same info on ELR already (hoping that even more vapers can find it useful + to create more pressure on manufacturers to be more transparent, which is always good for us/customers + more vapers can contribute and help make this info better and updated).

    There are two reasons for this post:
    1. to help vapers find basic information about diketones, oils, syrups in flavors of different companies on a single page; it's easier to find anything and to compare flavors of different manufacturers.
    2. to help make companies become more transparent regarding the use of diketones, oils, sugars, syrups, GMO, aspartame, etc publicly. It is a health question and some vapers / their customers want to avoid those flavors, so why not give all the info, if there's nothing to hide?

    [​IMG]
    Note: 6 most popular DIY companies are highlighted for easy following. TFA/TPA – The Flavor Apprentice/The Perfume Apprentice, FLV – Flavorah, FW – Flavor West, CAP – Capella, FA – Flavour Art, INW – Inawera, MB – Molinberry, LB – Liquid Barn, OoO – One on One, LA – LorAnn, DIYFS – DIY Flavor Shack, HG – Hangsen, RF – Real Flavors, JF – Jungle Flavors, WF – Wonder Flavours, GF – German Flavors, DEL – Delosi, MF – Medicine Flower

    This list will be updated with any new findings (i ask for your help here; i wish one day this page will have all the info about flavors of premium liquid companies as well). I also hope the bottom listed companies in the table will soon figure out that they need to be more transparent if they want to gain vaping community's support.


    TFA/TPA – The Flavor Apprentice / The Perfumers Apprentice

    :) Full disclosure of what’s in their flavorings
    :) Very informative and helpful support regarding this question
    :) No Diacetyl in any of their flavors
    :( They provide range and not exact numbers, such as Acetoin <=1%, which could be either 10ppm (= totally irrelevant) or 10,000ppm (= very high).
    :( Extremely high levels of diketones in some of their flavors (Butter, Coconut Extra)
    :( Some flavors contain corn syrup (Caramel Original, DX Caramel Original, Graham Cracker)

    [​IMG]
    Note: shown are only flavors with the highest levels of A or AP (over 10,000 ppm = 1%). You can find more info about each of their flavors here:

    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=600-14-6 – flavors with AP (40+ flavors)
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=513-86-0 – flavors with A (60+ flavors)
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx - all flavors

    Their DX line contains zero diketones.


    MB - Molinberry

    :) Full documentation to each flavor supported with testing reports
    :) All flavors are Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl free
    :) The industry's lowest amounts of Acetoin
    :) No colorants or preservatives and all flavors are GMO free

    [​IMG]
    Note: Very low levels of Acetoin were found in 6 of their flavors only (all other 68 flavorings are completely D-A-AP free).
    More info on their website.


    FLV – Flavorah

    :) Very low levels of diketons
    :) Super concentrates result in very low amounts of diketones in your mixes (Coconut contains 2,800 ppm of Acetoin, but since you use it at 2% in your mixes, this results in 56 ppm of Acetoin in your vaping liquid = 0.0056%).
    :) They do not add Diacetyl or Acetyl Propionyl to any of their products.
    :( Diacetyl in some flavors is formed naturally during the flavor extraction process (but this still is Diacetyl).

    [​IMG]
    Note: Shown are only flavors with more than 1,000 ppm of Acetoin.
    More info about diketons in their flavors: www.flavorah.com/safety/


    RF - Real Flavors

    :) No Diacetyl in any of their flavors
    :) Clear info about diketones provided on their website
    :) Walt_RealFlavors available on ELR forum; very handy to have a support on a forum

    [​IMG]
    Note: Listed are flavors with more than 1000ppm.

    They say 'Testing done at recommended usage levels' (testing mixed juice, not liquid in a bottle). Since recommended usage levels are 1-2.5%, their 'less than 25ppm' means up to 1000-2500ppm.
    Find more info on their website. (thx @Mattp169)


    LB – Liquid Barn

    :) None of their flavors have added Diacetyl.
    :) Good information on their website
    :( High level of AP in one flavor (Vanilla Ice Cream 3.5%)

    [​IMG]
    Note: Shown are only flavors with more than 1000 ppm of A/AP.
    Find more detailed info about their other flavors at www.liquidbarn.com/pages/quality


    OoO – One on One

    :) A pleasant surprize! Thumbs up for the company!
    :) None of their flavors have added Diacetyl.
    :( High levels of Acetoin in some flavors (Sweet Cream 6.7%)

    [​IMG]
    Note: Shown are only flavors with more than 10,000 ppm (1%) of A/AP.
    Detailed info about diketones in their flavors https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0261/1345/files/OOO_Usage_File.pdf?13036354632880998590


    FA – Flavour Arts

    :) Independent research showed ZERO Diacetyl and AP in their VAPING flavors...
    :( ...but no results of any Acetoin testing was publicly released. We have no idea how much Acetoin is in any of their flavors.
    :) Their flavors don't contain any sugars, protein, genetic modified ingredients, animal ingredients of any kind, preservatives, sweeteners and colors.
    :) Their ClearStream and other researches prove that they are one of the most concerned and trusted companies.


    The information on their website is quite confusing and they cannot list their vaping and kitchen flavors separately due to legal reasons (blame regulators, not a company for that). Here is how you can find everything:

    FA's official site is here (all flavorings listed).
    Find out which their vaping flavors are here (all D/AP testings are there as well; about 130 flavors).

    All flavors not on that list are NOT suitable for vaping. This includes flavors like Butter, Cream Whipped, Milk, Pandoro, and about 30 other flavors. You can find these flavors here.
    FA says those flavors are some oil-based flavourings, and some that contain ingredients which are deemed unsuitable for vaping (besides oils, this may mean D/AP and/or other baddies and i would believe their researchers who are one of the best in the industry, so it is probably cool to avoid those flavors).

    The black spot remains hiding information about Acetoin levels in any of their flavorings, which is unacceptable. (thx @AndriaD and others for clearing some things)


    DEL Delosi (Nicotine Labs)

    :) None of their flavors have added Diacetyl or artificial coloring.
    :) Only seven of their flavors contain A/AP (and they say they are in process of removing A/AP from these)
    :) There is an information about A/AP on their NicotineLabs website…
    :( … but there is ZERO information about diketones on the official Delosi website
    :( No testing reports, no info about what their Not Detected (ND) limit was

    [​IMG]
    Find more info at nicotinelabs.com or delosi.com
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017 at 9:59 AM
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  2. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    FW – Flavor West

    :( Bad reputation for lying about diacetyl in their flavors a few years ago
    :( They use sugar syrup and other sugars in many flavors (more info at the bottom of the page)
    :( High levels of Acetoin in some flavors
    :) They don’t use diacetyl anymore and are in the process of removing acetyl propionyl and acetoin from their flavors
    :) They don't hide levels of A/AP in any of their flavors (like CAP / FA)

    My opinion: Other flavor companies use questionable ingredients yet do not get near the heat that Flavor West does. Regardless of the past, after FW published their reports and changed their flavors i could say i trust them more than companies, who don't release any info about their flavors publicly.

    [​IMG]
    Listed are ONLY flavours with more than 10,000 ppm (>1%) of Acetoin.

    More info: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dgcbcda45ghrkad/AACOwhaFQUX41lau0gt2FCO2a/FW Ingredient List.pdf?dl=0


    CAP – Capella

    :) Testing results for some of their flavors about D-A-AP...
    :( ...but, no results are published about flavors that DO contain diketones (why not publishing tests of ALL flavors which they are selling?)
    :) They say they are not using Diacetyl in ANY of their flavorings

    My opinion: As a long time user of their Vanilla Custard V1, i'd really wish to get some info about the amounts of diketones (i would stay their customer, if those are not extremely high, but with no info released, i fear the worst case scenario, which i want to avoid).

    Info about their diketone-free flavors www.capellaflavors.com/a-p-status/


    LA – LorAnn (Lauren)

    :) No public reports, but they say they are not adding Diacetyl in their flavors
    :( Several flavors contain oils, which are very bad for vaping.
    :( Several flavors contain artificial colorings, which are best to avoid.

    Be sure to check this table before using (note: it's not LorAnn's official): http://bestvaporflavors.com/best-lorann-oils-vaping/


    DIYFS – DIY Flavor Shack

    :( No reports, but at least they do inform you publicly whether a flavor contains diketones or not, so you can avoid them.

    Website: https://www.diyflavorshack.com


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The following companies you should avoid if you care about D-A-AP.

    They didn't release any public report about diketones in their flavors, they either refuse giving any info or they say they will provide any MSDS sheets on a flavor if you email them (which is absolutely not good enough for me; somehow i would rather see them publicly commit themselves with those reports, which they want to send me; also MSDS sheets are often not giving any info about diketones – check flavorah example here www.flavorah.com/safety/; obviously i would rather see their publicly released reports about D-A-AP levels in their flavors).


    :blech: INW – Inawera
    :blech: HG – Hangsen
    :blech: JF – Jungle Flavors
    :blech: WF – Wonder Flavours
    :blech: GF – German Flavors
    :blech: MBV - Mount Baker Vapor
    :blech: MF – Medicine Flower (Lotus Flavors)



    :blech: Sugars, Syrups, etc

    https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/wiki/sugars
    www.vapingunderground.com/threads/ingredients-to-avoid-using-in-diy.102/

    :eek: Sucralose (SPLENDA)

    Link
    (thx @iVapeDIY )


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Final thoughts:

    We have two types of companies:
    1. Those who have nothing to hide and who publicly provide all the information to their customers. Their stance may help make vaping even safer in the future and these are beneficial for vaping community in the future.
    2. Those who don't publicly provide any info about diketones and/or other harmful substances used in their flavors (ignoring their customers; they don't want you to know what you are vaping).

    My opinion: I have no problems with A/AP and some of my the most frequently used flavors contain diketones. Overall i'm more concerned about oils, sugars, syrups, aspartame, artificial flavoring, GMO in my flavorings.

    But still i am TOTALLY against non-transparent policy of some companies, who don't provide detailed MSDS sheets / DAAP reports for their flavorings. Use of diketones is a health question after all and many vapers / their customers want to avoid those flavors. This makes me questioning about what are they hiding. Are they still adding Diacetyl in their flavors, which is no longer being used by most (but not all) flavor manufacturers? Could i trust them and their products?


    How can we help make vaping even safer?

    For me, reportings about DAAP, oils, sugars, corn syrup, aspartame, GMO are a must and that's why my ratings will always be 1/5 stars for non-transparent products. I can imagine that when dozens of vapers will do the same, all those companies will be forced to become more transparent due to under-average ratings / lower sells / bad reputation and they will finally stop ignoring their customers.

    More importantly, this may make vaping even safer in the future (before Diacetyl fun club attacks this sentence... we all know what garbage was in liquids in the past and how much better it is now; the industry was forced to change; this wouldn't happen without some transparency and public awareness and we would still be vaping oils, sugars and added Diacetyl, right?). And if it's even safer and more transparent, then voice of vapers can be heard even more (maybe resulting in less regulations and gaining better public opinion).

    Transparency is driving changes, helps finding new solutions faster and it is always good for users (not just for vaping, but also for food, chemical and all other industries).

    I'm looking forward to any other information about flavors / manufacturers / reports you may find. Also, there's quite some text and poorly worded information - please inform me about those; together we can make the overall information much more useful. Thx.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017 at 9:33 AM
  3. soulseek

    soulseek Member For 1 Year

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    I strongly disagree with your analysis of FA. The reason they don't disclose D/A/AP values is because (99%?, I think they've said that only yoghurt may contain some acetoin) of their vaping flavours do not contain any.

    It's only the kitchen line that does and even then they're lower than the content of most other brands (there was a PDF a while back that listed the DAAP content for things like Pandoro from the kitchen line and it was way lower than what FW uses).

    Furthermore, FA is the only one of them to date that has collaborated and funded studies (clearstream) on the effects of flavours on your cells. If I'm not mistaken they were also the first ones to warn and inform (back before they split into vaping/kitchen lines) against the use of diacetyl in your e-juice.
     
  4. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years Vape Media

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    WARNING
    PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD FOR CORRECT INFORMATION REGARDING FLAVOUR ART

    THE ORIGINAL POST MAY CONTAIN AND HAS CONTAINED OUTRIGHT LIES ABOUT FLAVOUR ART
    AND REAL FLAVORS AS WELL

    DO NOT TRUST ANY INFO FROM THE ORIGINAL POSTER



    @HeadInClouds any commentson this info about FA. It does not jive with what I believe
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017 at 10:53 PM
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  5. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    But some of us like diketones.
    Tasty little things.
     
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  6. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    That is your opinion, but the facts are different (not just my opinion):

    Fact 1: FA did NOT publicly released any information about Acetoin testings in their flavors.

    For this reason we don't know how much Acetoin is in any of their flavors. We can assume that if there is no Acetoin in their flavors, then they would publish those results, right? (like they are proudly giving the info about levels of D&AP in most of their flavors, when they are zero)

    Fact 2: It is a myth that none of their flavors contain Diacetyl and AP. Some do. Kindly check their website, to find out which those are https://flavourart.com/en/store/flavors/

    Copy-paste from their FAQ https://flavourart.com/en/faq/
    ''We realize that for E smokers, our food flavors are used in a different way as they are not ingested but inhaled, and the presence of diacetyl can be a cause of concern.
    For this reason we have carried out massive removal of diacetyl from our flavor collection since November 2010 and product still containing it are clearly identified.''


    Fact 3: This one may surprize you. They explicitly say they produce and sell FOOD flavors, not vaping flavors.

    Copy-paste from their FAQ https://flavourart.com/en/faq/
    ''Disclaimer: We produce and sell FOOD FLAVORS which comply with Italian and EU legislation and EFSA reccomendation. They are safe for FOOD use as they are intended to enter the body by the digestive system, not by lungs.

    Digestion involves acid breakdown, enzyme attack, and kidney and liver processing. Vapor by the lungs goes directly in the blood stream. Even though due to absence of combustion, vaping can be compared to odor smelling in open air, consumption of food flavors by vaping has not been specifically tested for safety. Flavourart srl can not be held responsible for any claim or damage arising by the use of food flavor by the means of electronic devices as E-vapers, E cigarettes and similar.''



    These above are the facts, based on what you can find on the internet. One may also say that their interpretation of diketones is explicitly misleading, but probably most would agree that their policy is definitely not the best example of transparency, which many customers expect from such a reputable company.


    Exactly. That's why transparency is so important for customers. For those who are searching for diketones and for those who want to avoid them. And everyone in between. :)

    I don't care about diketones too much (ofc i want to avoid them if possible, but i don't ignore them completely). About one third of my flavors are FA and i will continue buying many of those anyway. Still i hope for much more transparency soon (not just from FA, but also from other companies). But those who are concerned about D-A-AP should simply avoid FA and choose liquids of other companies who clearly proved that there is no D-A-AP in their flavors.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  7. wllmc

    wllmc Yes there are typo's and no I do not care :) VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media

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    :popcorn: I love these threads:popcorn:
     
  8. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    What I want about transparency is a list of ingredients in the flavoring.
    I am allergic to some flavorings and I have no idea what ingredient it is.
    If the ingredients were listed I could figure it out and avoid those flavorings.

    Allergic symptoms:
    Inflamed inside mouth and all puffy feeling.
    Total loss of taste for days.
    Inflamed throat and lungs.

    And it is not the BAD stuff flavorings that cause this.

    So with no ingredient list to figure it out from I keep buying, trying and tossing flavorings.
    I toss about 25-30% of all the flavorings that I buy.

    I have learned the early warning symptoms ie tingly lips, and now do not get the full blown symptoms.

    It is also my theory that this ingredient or ingredients also cause a lesser reaction in other vapers known as vapers tongue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  9. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years Vape Media

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    oh im just waiting....
     
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  10. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    FA was the leader in testing for and eliminating questionable ingredients from their flavorings.
    I think that they are also the only flavoring company that makes ejuice.
     
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  11. KingPin!

    KingPin! Gold Contributor

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    I'm all cools with facts ... and no problem challenging the norm OP if my current understanding turns out to be incorrect and new information comes to light. I agree these companies should publish information. Some people don't care either way that's fine but there are some out there who do.

    I guess the problem is you are challenging deep rooted beliefs members have here

    So these are the things that are critically important

    1) Your post comes across as angry, emotionally attached to the data you present and not a like a true experiment . You lack method and control information for me if you are presenting information of this type it has to be unbiased, impartial, and fair to everyone

    2) How did you go about gaining the information for each company, was it all website online? Was there anyone you went the extra mile with? Sources needed for me please

    3) When was this data recorded, was it recorded over a period of time for each company? also was any communication attempted with each company?

    4) facts and opinions shouldn't be mixed it's fine to have a conclusion on the data but presenting your findings first should be front and centre

    5) background into the data your are presenting is required, the information you present is meaningless unless you explain what the study is about in the first place especially for members in here not familiar with what's in your study

    6) was the same approach used for each company?

    Maybe a new version could be posted? Modified in some way?
     
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  12. xpen

    xpen Bronze Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    FA clearly states on their website which flavors contain diketones, and discourages their use for vaping.
    They do so since at least 2012, when I began vaping.
    Back then they were the first showing analysis and results of their own flavorings on cell cultures (project ClearStream, still an ongoing effort)
    All in all, they look to me as a responsible, caring company.
    Definitely in a different league from many other eliquid/flavoring producers, IMO.
     
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  13. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    There are some good points here @kingpin and here are some more info about my approach.

    1. I completely agree. I tried to make it as best as i could, but i totally agree that it needs an improvement and i am asking for this. Let's make it better together, with more information and more unbiased. More than anything i would wish for some support directly from manufacturers or sharing their view as that would be extremely helpful (if unbiased). My goal was to try present the most complete information about diketones in flavors of different manufacturers found anywhere on the internet (if there are any other good sources, then please share those and all this info may be much better; my only goals are two things mentioned on top of the first post).

    2. Yes, everything was found on websites (all links are there, obviously only for companies who have their reports published publicly). I didn't ask any company about their results (if this is what you meant by going an extra mile), because the information would be biased that way. If not publicly published and open information for everyone then i don't take it credible. Vaping community deserve better information than to rely on emails and take those as facts (besides i don't know how should i write to fellow vapers in that case... something like 'they told me so, so you have to believe this is true' somehow doesn't work and is not something we should 100% believe).

    3. Answer above.

    4. This was on my mind. First i presented facts (based only on what i found on their websites = i take those info as facts), then i sometimes presented my opinion (not always and where i did, i usually did mention that is my opinion, so everyone can understand that part is not based on facts). The reason for my comments is to help understand and the other reason is because sometimes the 'overall opinion' within the vaping community is sometimes not based on facts (= myth). I believe that for the most unbiased information it is important for users to know whether something is true and based on facts or not and that's the reason for explicitly sharing my opinion sometimes.

    5. The goals are clear and stated right on top of the post.

    There are two reasons for this post:
    1. to help vapers find basic information about diketones, oils, syrups in flavors of different companies on a single page; it's easier to find anything and to compare flavors of different manufacturers.
    2. to help make companies become more transparent regarding the use of diketones, oils, sugars, syrups, GMO, aspartame, etc publicly. It is a health question and some vapers / their customers want to avoid those flavors, so why not give all the info, if there's nothing to hide?
    (3). I am hoping for all other interesting info from all of you; together we can make this info much better and updated.


    Publicly available information are in our interest (and i truly hope some companies will realize that it is in their interest too) + i sincerely doubt there is any user out there (not involved in business) who would want that companies keep all those info hidden, rather then be exposed and publicly released.

    6. Yes. I checked them all and i collected reports of all companies available online (and i shared those info in reduced format as i wrote each time). And again, it is far from perfect and i am asking for your help. If there is any other info, company, flavor reports, any other website interesting to check, or anything else interesting, then please share your data so we can update this info.
     
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  14. Mattp169

    Mattp169 Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years Vape Media

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    yeah well see, heres the thing....if my memory serves, someone correct me if I am wrong, ( would just love if @HeadInClouds would just chime in already)we have a member here @HeadInClouds who has actually talked to the scientists at FA and I believe other companies and gathered tons of information. And I know for myself it is his "going the extra mile" that heled convince me that FA flavors should be my go to for safety as well as flavor
     
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  15. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    @xpen , i do believe they are responsible and caring company (otherwise i wouldn't use their flavors), but this thread is about DAAP transparency. And regarding this, FA is not the best example.

    Just a confirmation that there are diketones in your flavors is just not enough anymore to be proclaimed as transparent. Most transparent companies have publicly published DAAP reports (with very explicit numbers, not just saying there is D/AP presented) and for each of their flavors we can check how much Acetoin they contain (while FA does not even give any info at all about Acetoin; not even if flavor contains it or not). They should be more transparent and that would be in our interest, because it matters big time if a flavor contains 100,000ppm or 100ppm (and this information we can't get from FA, while we get it from others). Note: Personally i believe FA's flavors have small amounts of DAAP in some of their flavors since they are responsible and put lots of efforts to their testings; but until this is proven by actual reports it would be biased / would make this comparison totally unprofessional if i would be making conclusions 'out of the air'.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  16. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    This would be amazing and lots of great information. This is exactly what this page needs (hoping for info based on facts, not based on 'they said that and i believe them') @HeadInClouds, man, you're my hero and i should thank you for your recipes. I tried at least dozen of them and i love almost all.
     
  17. wllmc

    wllmc Yes there are typo's and no I do not care :) VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media

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    nevermind I change my mind, going back in the corner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  18. AndriaD

    AndriaD Shine on, you crazy... VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    I agree about TPA/TFA; because of their absolute transparency, I was able to discover that their "DblChoc Dark" contains sulfites, of all goofy things -- sulfites are used to preserve color, to prevent foods turning brown -- yet the flavoring is BROWN, so it makes zero sense to include sulfites.

    Asthmatics should NEVER EVER consume ANY type of sulfites, as they can cause total pulmonary collapse in asthmatics. If someone wants to come back and argue with me about how they eat sulfites and it doesn't bother them, then they don't have TRUE "bronchial asthma"; my son suffers "asthmatic bronchitis" on occasion, but sulfites don't bother him at all.

    I'm happy to hear that about Molinberry, as their Glamour Chocolate is the only choc flavoring I can taste at all. I had feared it might contain diketones of some kind, but I ignored my concern, since I can't taste any other chocolate flavoring. Nice to know I had nothing to worry about.

    Andria
     
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  19. xpen

    xpen Bronze Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I do understand your point, and to an extent we share it.
    Still can't help but remember when some flavor makers have shown blatantly doctored test results...
    Have you got the time and resources for analyzing each and every flavor, and compare them against the tests results provided by each producer - if any, that is?
    Until then, I'm afraid nothing can be trusted - especially with the approach 'guilty until there's "proof" to the contrary' you're taking here.
    In other words, you can't be half-paranoid... either you go to the bottom of it or simply accept that possibly not everyone is out here to screw us all..
    In that respect the general behavior of a company is for me an indicator of how much I should trust them when in doubt.

    PS: I now realize this thread is getting polluted by general discussion, apologies BTW, have you reserved a post or two at the beginning of it for keeping results in evidence?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  20. soulseek

    soulseek Member For 1 Year

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    1) Let me repeat this, back before they split their lines into Vaping and Kitchen (the ones containing DAAP) they had a list of potential harmful flavours. They then decided to split the lines and simply warn people of DAAP content and emphasise that they are not suitable for vaping, to prohibit them from using them at all.
    I dont know how much more transparent than "NOT SUITABLE FOR VAPING" you want them to be.
    You may be happy with companies like TFA that release detailed lists of ingredients to the public but do not insist on people using them for vaping. What is actually happening is that some people look at a TFA/CAP/FW flavour with lets say 0.1% diacetyl, 0.3% acetoin and then decide that those levels are too low and acceptable for them and just use it anyway.

    2) Gotta love it when people respond without having read your entire post.
    "It's only the kitchen line that does and even then they're lower than the content of most other brands (there was a PDF a while back that listed the DAAP content for things like Pandoro from the kitchen line and it was way lower than what FW uses)."

    3) No that does not surprise me. I've been vaping for 6-7 years now. What you probably don't know is that all the older flavouring companies TFA/CAP/Lorann were food flavouring companies before vaping existed. FA was created around the time vaping came onto the scene. They were a very small company back then and focused entirely on vaping from the get go. As such, they were focused invested in vaping and its continued success and made sure from a very early stage that their flavours were suitable for vaping (their clearstream project is a strong example). This is contrary to the other older companies, who were in this just to make a few more extra bucks and couldn't care less about the future of vaping, it's longterm success or the danger to vapers.
     
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  21. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    There seems to be some bias in this thread about certain brands of flavorings.

    I really do not care about what the OP cares about in the flavorings.
    I care about other ingredients in many flavorings that cause me to have physical issues if I use them.
    But since the actual ingredients is not listed then I just buy em , try em and toss most of em.
    TPA and INW are the worst offenders to me.
     
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  22. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    FlavourArt was the first in the industry to address diacetyl & related diketones -- years ago. They moved beyond that with ClearStream testing.

    FlavourArt's in vitro testing (ClearStream Onward) goes beyond looking at specific ingredients & quantifies the effect of their vaporized flavoring on living cells. No other company does anything similar. Here's an overview: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/the-project-clearstream-onward/

    Here are details on their testing process: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/test-on-the-model/. Click links in the green box for more detail.

    Here are results for their flavorings: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/category/results/

    Contact info for any questions you might have: http://www.clearstreamonward.com/send-us-your-questions/
     
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  23. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Thx @AndriaD Thx for sharing that info and I'm glad you found these info useful. This could never happen if TPA would not be transparent.
     
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  24. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Man, it is about t r a n s p a r e n c y and not about analyzing flavors. It is about putting together all publicly available information to help vapers get information about amounts of diketones in all those flavors and be able to compare them. And it is about information which companies are hiding their testing results from the public eye and about those who exposed their results and committed themselves publicly.

    Keep in mind one other thing. When test results are publicly released, then there are some more liabilities and transparency opens a field of testings made by another independent companies one day. When you hide everything, then noone can blame you, right?

    You probably remember FW case – if they wouldn't publicly release information, then they wouldn't be caught (and noone could blame them for anything). And that precisely is why diketone-concerned vapers should avoid companies who do not want to publicly release information about their testings.

    Probably many vapers are wondering why a company like Inawera, which is constantly keep telling us that their flavors do not contain any D-A-AP, why they don't want to release those testing results publicly? It would be highly beneficial for them to show zero diketones and absolutely no trade secret would be revealed, right?). Why do they want to hide those info from the public eye? Why do they want to send me those info by email instead of committing themselves publicly? What are they hiding? Is amount of diketones the reason for changing so many flavors recently? Why wouldn't companies want to reveal their numbers, if there is nothing to hide and if those numbers are positive for company's image? There must be a good reason for this.


    I agree, hardly anything can be trusted 100%, but many vapers trust transparent companies who reveal their testing to the public eye more, than companies who hide those info.

    By putting all these information together and allow them to be compared, vapers and transparent companies are not paranoid. I'd say more paranoid are those who were exposed not telling all the information that is concerning vapers and commit themselves publicly. Should vapers defend company's secrecy about diketones or rather have it exposed?

    Publicly released information are in every vaper's interest (and i truly hope some companies will realize that it is in their interest too) + i sincerely doubt there is any user out there (not involved in business) who would want that companies keep all those info hidden, rather then be exposed and publicly released.
     
  25. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    It's important to realize that the words "diacetyl" and "diketone" define specific molecular structure. You can find those definitions in a chemistry dictionary.

    Regarding info on FLV from the original post in this thread: Diacetyl is diacetyl. The source is irrelevant, whether "natural diacetyl...formed during the flavor extraction process" or intentionally added later. You won't find "natural diacetyl" in a chemistry dictionary. (As an analogy, imagine fresh shellfish marketed as "sodium free" because none was intentionally added during processing and only "natural sodium" is present.)
     
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  26. AndriaD

    AndriaD Shine on, you crazy... VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    There is one other thing to keep in mind, though I'm not sure it's even been mentioned in this thread: we don't know FOR A FACT that vaping flavors that contain diketones is actually dangerous, at least, dangerous to everyone all the time.

    Bronchiolitis obliterans is STILL vanishingly rare, despite the ever-growing number of vapers in the world, a lot of whom don't frequent vape forums, and have no idea that they "shouldn't" vape this stuff, or even that it exists, or if their (store-bought) ejuice contains it. Doesn't it seem obvious that if vaping this stuff was really that dangerous, we'd be seeing an alarming increase in cases of bronchiolitis obliterans? Yet no alarming increase appears to be happening.

    Then, there is the fact that diacetyl is present in tobacco cigarettes in levels FAR higher than in ANY ejuice so far tested (and publicized) -- yet B. O. is, again, vanishingly rare, despite the fact that smokers used to account for some 40% of the population (or more!).

    The only known cases of this rare lethal condition seem to have occurred to those who work in factories which produce microwave popcorn, hence the "popcorn lung" label affixed to this condition -- could it not be that rather than the diketones, it was *the powder itself* which led to the condition? Lungs are not meant to inhale powder; even the Advair powder I inhale daily sometimes gives me a bit of trouble, and it's MADE to be inhaled, by those with rather serious lung conditions -- asthma and COPD.

    My own personal reason for avoiding diketones wherever possible has a lot more to do with my own personal situation than with any belief that diketones are *always* a problem -- the only known symptom of B. O. is "shortness of breath" -- I have asthma, so shortness of breath is a daily fact of life for me. I also have a (mild) case of hypochondria, and am prone to worrying about my health for many and varied reasons -- when you combine that latter fact with my daily breathlessness, you can see that if I knowingly vaped diketones, I would be giving myself a lot to worry about -- perhaps needlessly, as I stated in the opening paragraphs; it's just better for my peace of mind if I don't (knowingly) vape them. However I don't take that avoidance to any [neurotic] extreme -- i.e., I do vape Inawera flavors, shisha strawberry is over 14% of my ADV -- but the other flavors in that ADV are TFA's DX Bavarian and their Vanilla Swirl, plus CAP Sweet Cream -- all diketone-free. It's good enough for me.

    To wit: if I can easily find the info on the diketone situation of a flavor, then I avoid any that contain diketones... but if I can't find the info, I don't really worry too much about it. To me, this seems a workable solution.

    Andria
     
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  27. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Actually I do not care about diacetyl, diketones, etc except to enjoy the flavor enhancement that they give.
    Unlike many/most I did not switch to vaping because of concerns for my health.
    I did it because the wife unit wanted me to and saw that I could save quite a bit of money by vaping vs smoking.
    After 40 yrs of smoking 1 PAD plus I did notice that I had better wind, fewer colds and other health improvements though.

    My main concern with flavorings is some ingredients besides the ones most worry about that actually cause me physical problems.
    This is not addressed at all.
    I need a full list of ingredients so that I can discover which ingredients cause me immediate problems.
    Not just those ingredients that most worry about for long term concerns.
     
  28. gopher_byrd

    gopher_byrd Cranky Old Fart VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years ECF Refugee

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    TFA does give a listing of their ingredients. Try looking at ones that react unfavorably with you and see it there are molecules in common. http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx
     
  29. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Not going to try them again already trashed all the TPA flavorings for being bad to me except the Brown Sugar Extract.

    I have 2 bad reactions to many/most flavorings. Excessive chemical taste and actual irritation of mouth, throat and lungs get sore as well, these physical symptoms last for several days after just 1 day of use of the offending flavoring.

    Most of the bad reactions from the TPA flavorings was from chemical taste.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  30. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Update: Delosi added + FLV updated (thx HIC)

    DEL Delosi (Nicotine Labs) * * *


    :) None of their flavors have added Diacetyl or artificial coloring.
    :) Only seven of their flavors contain A/AP (and they say they are in process of removing A/AP from these)
    :) There is an information about A/AP on their NicotineLabs website…
    :( … but there is ZERO information about diketones on the official Delosi website
    :( No testing reports, no info about what their Not Detected (ND) limit was

    [​IMG]

    Find more info at nicotinelabs.com or delosi.com
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017 at 6:03 PM
  31. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    :eek: Sucralose (SPLENDA)

    Thermal degradation of sucralose: a combination of analytical methods to determine stability and chlorinated byproducts
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09598

    Thermal degradation of sucralose and its potential in generating chloropropanols in the presence of glycerol
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814609005378

    Study questions sucralose stability in bakery

    http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/R-D/Study-questions-sucralose-stability-in-bakery

    The new study, funded by the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC), sought to understand the thermal decomposition of sucralose under high temperature environments. Drs Yaylayan and Rahn also studied the “consequences of hydrogen chloride release from sucralose and its ability to chlorinate various food related ingredients such as glycerol to generate chloropropanols”.

    The researchers looked at the thermal degradation of sucralose (pyrolysis) at 250 °C in the presence of glycerol “generated significant amounts of 3-monochloropropanediol and 1,2- and 1,3-dichloropropanols based on the relative intensities of their chromatographic peaks which amounted to 15 per cent of the total chromatographic peak area”, they reported.

    Dr Yaylayan told this website that the choice of 250 °C was “a little bit higher temperature” than found in many food processes “in order to speed up the reaction”.
    250 °C is a typical TC setting. Chloropropanols = cancer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017 at 10:13 PM
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  32. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I use Liquid Stevia and all artificial sweeteners are horrible.

    "250 °C is a typical TC setting. Chloropropanols = cancer."

    that is 482 F.
    I vape around 320F.

    although I agree tat the super sub ohm, uber high wattage Klowdz bro klowdz style of vaping increases the risk factor.
    Like comparing normal driving a car to DUI.
     
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  33. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Great contribution @iVapeDIY!!! I added this info above. Thanks.


    @The Cromwell Liquid Stevia is on the safe side. TPA Sweetener and CAP Super Sweet are made of Sucralose. Personally, i would avoid these two. FA Meringue and FA Marshmallow work just fine for me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017 at 1:49 PM
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  34. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    I suspect many Klowdz chasers have TC settings waay above 250°C to get more flavors and nic ...

    http://www.vapingpost.com/2016/10/25/temperature-control-mode-how-to-use-it/

    Water boils at 100°C, Propylene Glycol (PG) is vaporized at 188°C (or 371°F), Vegetal Glycerin (VG) at 290°C (or 554°F) and ethanol at 78°C (or 173°F).

    Other constituents are also present whose concentration and composition are also very variable from one juice to another.

    The most common is nicotine whose concentration cannot exceed 2% in Europe, but with values up to 4.8% in certain juices like those used in the Vype ePen, for example. Nicotine’s boiling point is reached at 247°C (or 477 °F).

    Flavorings can reach up to 20% in volume of the final blend. Diacetyl, for example, that gives a buttery taste, boils at only 88°C (or 190°F), for acetoin giving the same flavor, it is higher (148°C or 298°F). For the flavor of banana, isoamyl acetate is vaporized at 142°C (or 288°F). Benzaldehyde (cherry taste) boils at 178°C (or 352°F) and cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon taste) at 248°C (478°F). Fruity flavors (ethyl propionate) boils at 99°C (or 210°F), grape (Methyl anthranilate) at 256°C (or 493°F), orange (limonene) at 176°C (or 349°F), Pinnaple (allyl hexanoate) at 190°C (or 374°F), cotton candy (ethyl maltol) at 161°C (or 322°F), menthol at 212°C (or 414°F) and vanilla (vanilline) at 295°C (or 563°F).

    Manufacturers are often tempted to add exhausters in order to better develop certain flavors. They use sweeteners like sugars among which the most common is the saccharose that decomposes at 186°C (or 367°F). Glutamic acid is another popular exhauster (also called glutamate) that decomposes at 199°C (390°F). The reaction between an amine group of the glutamic amino-acid and a reducing sugar leads to the Maillard reaction that produces a wide variety of flavors when products are heat.

    Hence, the optimum temperature is difficult to assess due to the variety of reactions and the different compounds that are met. Based on readings on various forums, users generally opt for a temperature value around 250°C for puffs shorter than 5 seconds. At a lower value, the coil does not heat homogeneously andThey evoke the “cooking” of their juice when gunk build up on the wick, which is generally associated to a degraded flavor. Sometimes, flavor degradation is extreme and leads to a repulsion that expert users associate to the production of acrolein, a molecule that it is preferable to avoid.​

    Interestingly, Ethyl Maltol boils at 161°C and most 'fuity flavors' (except pineapple) boils at 99°C ... you can vape a fruity recipe (with EM) at 'low' temps.

    Acrolein (coil gunk) is another topic altogether ... a good reason to change coils immediately (not just dry burn it) when it begins to taste funky.
     
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  35. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    And the knowledge on flavorings and vaping with any impacts on human phsyology is just beginning.
     
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  36. AndriaD

    AndriaD Shine on, you crazy... VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    That's true... but I suspect that none could be worse than decades of smoking tobacco... ;)

    Andria
     
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  37. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    And yes TC Can be used in less safe manners just as power mode can.
    TC temperatures exist at levels well above the temps required to create harmful substances in your vapor.

    My vehicles will run over 100 mph but that does not force me to drive that fast.
     
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  38. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    Its probably fair to say that vaping is '95%' safer than smoking; now, we know we can make it even safer by avoiding ...
    • diketones
    • oils
    • sugars (sucrose, glucose, sucralose)
    • furans (5-hydroxymethylfurfural, furfural)
    • aldehydes (acrolein, formaldehyde, benzaldehyde, propionaldehyde or acetaldehyde)
    http://www.vapingpost.com/2016/12/13/in-search-of-a-safer-vaping-style/
     
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  39. AndriaD

    AndriaD Shine on, you crazy... VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    I no longer use a great deal of sweetener, but telling people not to use sucralose? That's a great way to convince them they'd rather stick to smoking,. When I first started vaping, I couldn't taste any vape that had less than 2.5% sucralose.

    It IS possible to take this health paranoia too far, and that's a perfect example.

    Andria
     
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  40. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    Its all a matter of choice (and desired risk profile). With more research and data, we now have the choice ... '95% safer', '99% safer' or '99.99% safer'.

    Personally, I choose '99% safer' and will adjust my DIY recipes as more research appears; e.g., aside from 'DX' or 'V2' ingredients, I now use sorbitol, maltitol or xylitol instead of sucralose; to avoid aldehydes, will be changing coils and cleaning attys even more often ... and use low temps as default. Long-term, am aiming for '99.99% safer' by fading-out vaping altogether.
     
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  41. AndriaD

    AndriaD Shine on, you crazy... VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    There's this term, "tobacco harm reduction". It doesn't say anything about "harm elimination". Life is risky; you can live in a closet, drink nothing but distilled water and live on whatever high-nutrition supplem,ent you can tolerate, but you're still gonna die. Until vaping, I was prepared to smoke until it killed me, for a couple of reasons: I liked smoking, a lot... and I simply couldn't quit. Vaping made it possible to quit, when I didn't think the remotest possibility of such a thing existed. And it's great, so many pros, I probably can't even think of them all.. but I still have asthma. And one day, I will pass from this veil of tears into whatever comes next... but until then, I'm going to do my level best to enjoy my life, with as little risk as I can comfortably and easily manage... but I'm not going to obsess over it, or turn into pure polly to try and achieve some irrational level of "safety." Because an asteroid could take us all out, pretty much anytime, so why sweat the small stuff?

    95% safer is plenty good enough for me, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one.

    Andria
     
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  42. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    some will be like you and do research but the vast majority will not and currently believe that vaping is worse than smoking.
    I like good science but this kind of stuff just scares and confuses the ignorant masses more.
    Vapers that visit boards like this are a tiny minority of vapers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017 at 7:40 PM
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  43. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    True. Unfortunately, all you need is one case where a vaper gets a disease that is linked to any of the aforementioned toxins for the tobacco lobby to pounce all over this fledgling industry.
     
  44. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Umm the tobacco industry wants a piece of the action. They do not want to totally kill vaping just shape it to their gain.
     
  45. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    That would seem to be the case with British American Tobacco (BAT) ... with North American companies, not quite the case, where they still see a lot of Asian markets to exploit (which now seem to be in decline).
     
  46. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I thought some US tobacco companies had bought up some US vaping interests.

    VUSE is owned by RJ Reynolds.

    Altria (formerly Phillip Morris) owns MarkTen.

    then there is the Johnson Creek and Republic Tobacco partnership.
     
  47. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    The Maker of Vuse E-Cigs Is Lobbying to Ban Vaping (Updated)
    https://gizmodo.com/the-maker-of-blu-e-cigs-is-lobbying-to-ban-vaping-1633442788

    The trick is to make only their version of e-cig safe ... and everybody else's unsafe. Fun stuff.
     
  48. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Yep what I said. they only want prefilled sealed devices so they can make a fortune.

    wish I could see a list of the PMTA applications that have been filed.
     
  49. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY New Member

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    Under the current administration, you can't even trust 10-Q filings. The real 'toxin' here is big tobacco that wants profits over our suffering and/ or dead bodies. Fortuitously, even if they have the FDA in their pocket, cloud chasers and flavor chasers will never be satisfied with cookie-cutter products ... and that will continue to drive this industry (underground, if necessary).

    But I digress ... OT for another thread. Cheers.:cheers:
     
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  50. Mikser

    Mikser New Member

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    Update: Molinberry added + main pic made nicely

    MB Molinberry * * * *

    :) Full documentation to each flavor supported with testing reports
    :) All flavors are Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl free
    :) The industry's lowest amounts of Acetoin
    :) No colorants or preservatives and all flavors are GMO free

    [​IMG]
    Note: Very low levels of Acetoin were found in 6 of their flavors only (all other 68 flavorings are completely D-A-AP free).
    More info on their website.
     

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