DIY Nic Salts.

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - Recipes' started by FrostyMtl, May 12, 2017.

  1. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    Messages:
    11,199
    yep
     
  2. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    So following on, the 10% BA base we made is 138mg/ml VG, and I assume you have 100mg/ml VG base nic., so for each ml of nic base you add will require 0.544 ml of 138mg/ml BA base (as these will be mixed in a 3:4 ratio). To understand the 0.544 figure, 0.544ml x 138mg/ml = 75mg of BA. 1ml of 100mg/ml = 100mg of nicotine and 75:100 is a 3:4 ratio.

    Let me also assume you are to make 100ml (a nice easy figure for manual maths).
    To get 36mg/ml, you'll add 36ml of 100mg/ml VG nic base.
    From the above, you'll add 36 x 0.544 = 19.6ml of 138mg/ml BA base

    This gives you 55.6ml of VG nic/BA mix to which you'll add 19.4ml of plain VG, total 75ml VG.
    Add 25ml of PG, and you'll now have 100ml of 36mg/ml mixed at 75VG25PG with the correct % of BA added in accordance with the JUUL patent.
     
    David Wolf likes this.
  3. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Or use an ejuice calculator :D
     
    David Wolf likes this.
  4. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    Messages:
    11,199
    brilliant !!many thanks...
     
  5. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    No worries. As soon as any of the requirements change (especially the mg/ml of the nic base), it will all need to be calculated. The important thing is to keep the ratio of benzoic acid weight to nicotine weight constant at 3:4 to match what is in the patent (assuming that is what you want). To get more throat hit, lower the amount of benzoic acid added.
     
    Thaiskob likes this.
  6. iVapeDIY

    iVapeDIY Bronze Contributor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    235
    Agree. Interestingly, here in Canada we have an explosion of vape shops ... in some neighborhoods, Toronto has two to three vape shops per sq kilometer (excluding convenience stores that also sell e-juice). Some vape shop owners are going bankrupt from market forces/ extreme competition (not regulation). When Cannabis is legalized nationwide, competition will be fiercer as vape shops and Cannabis dispensaries consolidate. Moreover, a growing number of US Insurers now rate vapers as non-smokers; I suspect these statistics are encouraging our socialized healthcare system to turn a blind eye on vaping.

    Anecdotally, local vape shops are selling more e-juice with lower nic levels; 3mg is default, with 0mg as growth segment. If true, this trend implies a growing but steady fade-out from nicotine addiction, catalyzed by vaping.
     
    David Wolf likes this.
  7. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    Messages:
    11,199
    would you have the same kind of tutoroial for idiots using citric acid using the same parameters.
     
  8. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Going back to this one for a mo, how many grams of benzoic is 4% into 72mg/ml?
     
  9. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    For every ml of 72mg/ml you add, you will add 72 x 0.04 = 2.88mg of benzoic.(or 0.021 ml of the 138mg 10% solution from above)
    10ml of base, add 28.8mg benzoic (or 0.21ml of the 138mg solution)
    100ml of base, add 288mg benzoic (or 2.1ml of the 138mg solution)

    To check, 100ml of 72mg/ml contains 100 x 72 = 7200mg of nicotine.
    4% of 7200 = 0.04 x 7200 = 288mg

    Assuming you only want 4% of the weight of the nicotine added as benzoic ;)
    Note: the patent did specify 75% of the weight of the nicotine added as benzoic though.

    However, I believe you want 4% by vol of the total, including the base (whether that's PG or VG), and that's a different calculation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  10. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Not off the top of my head, but I'll write one. Just got to check the patent for the ratio first ;)
     
  11. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    @GT_1955 Thanks, ive been adding the % in by total volume.

    Think ive been getting it totally wrong.

    How much would i use for 75% of the weight of the nicotine at 72mg/ml?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  12. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    David Wolf likes this.
  13. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    For each ml of your base (which contains 72mg of nicotine) you add 72 x 0.75 = 54mg of benzoic acid.

    So, assuming you want to make 100ml of 36mg/ml (and it doesn't matter what the PG/VG ratio is, we already know the weight of the nicotine hence the weight of benzoic as a crystal to add)

    50ml of 72mg/ml base
    50 x 54mg = 2.7g of benzoic acid
    50ml in total of flavours / plain VG / plain PG (to get your preferred ratio and flavour)

    :D
     
    dansus likes this.
  14. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    That would be too strong for me, maybe its just as well ive been getting it wrong and working by 'feel'.

    Im normally good at this maths stuff, need to think on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    David Wolf likes this.
  15. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    From the patent, 0.71g of citric acid was added to 0.3g of nicotine (or 0.47g CA to 0.2g nic) so for every 1 mg nicotine you need to add 2.37mg of citric acid.

    So, assuming you want to make 100ml of 36mg/ml (and it doesn't matter what the PG/VG ratio is, we already know the weight of the nicotine hence the weight of citric as a crystal to add)

    50ml of 72mg/ml base
    50 x 72 x 2.37 = 8,532mg of CA, so 8.53g of citric acid
    50ml in total of flavours / plain VG / plain PG (to get your preferred ratio and flavour)

    To prepare a solution which you can heat without having your nic in it, I'd prepare a 25% solution (we used a 10% solution for BA if you remember because we wanted to heat this solution without heating the nicotine).

    To create a base CA solution, we mix 25g of CA into 75g of VG which you can heat to 55C, stir and store at will, noting 75g of VG is approximately 60ml (assuming the specific gravity of your VG is 1.25). Each ml of this mix contains 417mg of CA, so 417mg/ml.

    Let me also assume you are to make 100ml (a nice easy figure for manual maths).
    To get 36mg/ml, you'll add 36ml of 100mg/ml VG nic base (3.6g nic)
    From the above, you'll add 3.6g x 2.37 = 8.532g of CA so 20.5ml of 417mg/ml CA base

    This gives you 56.5ml of VG nic/CA mix to which you'll add 18.5ml of plain VG, total 75ml VG.
    Add 25ml of PG, and you'll now have 100ml of 36mg/ml mixed at 75VG25PG with the correct % of CA added in accordance with the JUUL patent.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  16. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Where the confusion comes from is that we use volumes normally but have to add our acids by weight ;)

    Yes, I can see that it could be too strong, even with the citric I've been using I have cut the amount down but that was also due to the amount of extra solids we are adding to our liquid, invariably clogging the coil quicker. Reducing the amount of acid reduces the amount of nicotine to salt, therefore increasing throat hit.

    We just find our own happy medium :D
     
  17. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Yeah, and its not the weight of the liquid but the weight of the nic, which is the bit that is frying my brain. I need to get some pure nic. lol
     
  18. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Given a certain volume of base nic, and knowing the mg/ml of nic concentration we can work out the weight of the nic itself quite easily though :D
    100ml of 72mg/ml has 7.2g of nicotine ...
     
  19. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Doesnt help that its 6am here, need to look with fresh eyes tomorrow.

    :thumbsup:
     
  20. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Think you just unlocked it for me.

    So if i add 5.4g of benzo to 100ml 7.2%, no matter how i cut the nic, the ratio will always be correct.

    To preserve the nic from heat, i add 2.7g of benzo to 50ml of PG (or VG), heat to dissolve, cool then add 50ml of 7.2% nic to make 100ml 36mg batch.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  21. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Yep, you got it ;)

    For benzoic, 0.75g is added to every 1g of nic.
    For citric, 2.37g is added to every 1g of nic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    dansus likes this.
  22. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    So if i wanted to make a 30ml batch of 28mg with citric;

    2.8g x 0.3 = 0.84g
    0.84g x 2.37g = 1.99g

    To check

    2.37g x 2.8g = 6.36g/100ml
    6.36g x 0.3 = 1.99g
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  23. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Calculate the total amount of nicotine: 28mg/ml x 30ml = 840mg of nicotine (or 0.84g)
    Calculate CA: 0.84g x 2.37 = 1.99g

    So yeah, it's correct (although I was slightly confused by your workout :D )
     
    dansus likes this.
  24. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Sorry, my brain works in odd ways, but gets there in the end. :rolleyes:
     
    GT_1955 likes this.
  25. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    I can report the benzo mix vapes much better at the proper ratios, much less of a stoned feeling and good rapid hit.

    The CA is less smooth and the hit is different, more uplifting i would say. Mixed with pineapple and peach, has a nice fizzy taste. Maybe i should mix it with some malic acid, and call it Sherbert's Salty Dip! :D

    Downside to using CA, it clogs up the wicks easily. Not so great for pod systems.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    David Wolf and GT_1955 like this.
  26. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    That is interesting mate ;)
    Yeah, CA mixed at those concentrations do clog coils (actually the wicks but you know what I mean), especially in pod systems.
     
  27. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Great thread, I've learned so much reading through here. How is the 2.5% BA solution vaping? Are you getting the same clean throat hit as you do with the JUUL pods?
     
  28. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    Messages:
    11,199
    Yeah ..Thanks alot GT_1955 ,and Frosty..your help has been invalubale and your genorosity is appreciated.
     
    RonJS likes this.
  29. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Stick to the 3:4 ratio that GT outlined, and you will get pretty close. Im not brave enough to try it at 60mg (again), but 36mg is smooth and hits hard enough.

    I would add, if anyone is thinking of making diy salts with benzoic acid, its advisable to vape it in a low power or temp controlled device, and limit the temp to 220c.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
    David Wolf likes this.
  30. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    Messages:
    11,199
    what do you consider low power. I don't use TC
     
  31. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    I'll second this. Vaping at high watts can product benzene. What's high and what's low? No one can say for sure.

    I'm tempted to stick with other acids such as lactic, malic, citric, etc. But really, who knows what byproduct those are producing when vaping...
     
  32. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Someone tested the Juul liquid, above 220c the rate of bad stuff goes vertical. I will try to find the chart later.
     
  33. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Hard to say exactly, pod systems like the Juul would be best. Bit of common sense really, keep the power low enough so the coil cant get too hot and change wick/coil regularly.
     
  34. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    From Kurt Kistler
    "Do NOT confuse benzoic acid with benzene! They are not even remotely the same, other than the benz part of the name. Benzoic acid is a commonly used food preservative, as sodium benzoate (the sodium salt of benzoic acid). Benzene is a carcinogen.

    That said, I would prefer other acids be used to make these salts, like pyruvic or citric, which are probably safer than benzoic. But benzoic acid is not even remotely as risky as benzene, which is NOT used at all, and probably forms, as Dr. F said, in vanishingly small quantities in the case of dry puff if there is benzaldehyde (cherry, almond) present."
     
  35. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Dehydration of GL to benzene has been observed [11], and in e-cigarettes a simple dehydration stoichiometry could be PG + GL = benzene + 5 H2O (Fig 1A). A second route to benzene in e-cigarettes is decarboxylation of benzoic acid (Fig 1B), and benzene has been known to form when benzoic acid is used as a preservative in beverages.[12] (Benzoic acid has been found by our laboratory in 14 out of 150 e-liquid refill products at levels estimated to be in the range 0.02 to 2 mg/mL, and benzoic acid is an acknowledged ingredient in e-liquids in the JUUL product line.[13]) For a third route to benzene, many aromatic aldehydes are major e-liquid flavor additives, including benzaldehyde (for “cherry”), vanillin, and ethyl vanillin: aldehyde levels as high as several percent (by mass) have been found.[14] Every aldehyde can be oxidized to its corresponding carboxylic acid, which may then undergo decarboxlation. Thus, oxidation of benzaldehyde can give benzoic acid, and therefore, benzene (Fig 1C). For a fourth route to benzene, in what amounts to abiotic fermentation, an aldehyde can undergo redox disproportionation to form a mix of the corresponding alcohol and the acid, and the latter may then undergo decarboxylation. (The acid is more oxidized then the aldehyde, and the alcohol is less oxidized than the aldehyde.) With benzaldehyde, a mix of benzoic acid and benzyl alcohol can then be formed (Fig 1D). (The disproportionation of an aldehyde lacking an “alpha-position” hydrogen atom is the Cannizzaro reaction, which is base-catalyzed (possibly then, by nicotine).)

    From: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173055
     
    David Wolf likes this.
  36. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Interesting, thanks for that ;)


    ETA: but it's worthwhile reading the whole article and make up your own mind whether >40x lower concentration than tobacco cigarettes fits your harm minimalisation strategy. If it doesn't, either don't use salts or just use the salts from JUUL
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
    pulsevape likes this.
  37. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Thinking of trying lactic acid, any thoughts?
     
  38. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Has a molar mass of 90.08 g/mol compared with benzoic acid's ‎122.123 g/mol ;)

    No other thoughts :D
     
    dansus likes this.
  39. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    More thoughts would be appreciated :D

    Also I have a question regarding the ph. I've read some articles that ph affects nicotine absorption. Any thoughts regarding how ph affects anything else, such as harshness or throat hit? Curious as to why the juul liquid is around 6 as opposed to 7 or higher.
     
  40. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Only in general thoughts: nicotine is basic, organic acids are ... umm, acidic. The more nicotine converted to salt the lower the pH value will be. I think I've read in the patent (somewhere) that JUUL use a combination of 3 nicotine salts to achieve their commercial juice, 1 is benzoic, 1 is citric and I forget the 3rd but it was an organic acid too.

    Note: My last lesson in chemistry was in 1970, forgive me if I can't answer all your questions :D
     
  41. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Cant see a recommended ratio for lactic acid in the patent. Care to hazard a guess?
     
    David Wolf likes this.
  42. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Slightly off topic but I've tried Nude Nicotine's "Hit" nic salts and I just can't seem to achieve the throat hit that the juul pods have. Have you guys been getting the same hit by using benzoic acid? I'm lost as to what else I can do to get the same clean consistent throat hit that the juul pods provide.
     
    David Wolf likes this.
  43. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Do you mean throat hit or nic hit? or both?
     
  44. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Throat hit. The nic hit is definitely there. But all the nic salts I've tried are too smooth on the inhale. The juul and the new phix pods have a very substantial throat hit.
     
  45. dansus

    dansus New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    I never got much throat hit from either of those, which is the way i like it.

    Try FA flash hit.
     
  46. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    Or, just mix a bit of freebase nicotine into it ;)


    And in answer to your (@dansus) question above, I couldn't hazard a guess I'm afraid
     
    dansus likes this.
  47. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    So by doing that you're basically decreasing the amount of acid percentage? I feel dumb for not thinking of that already
     
  48. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    105
    In a word, yes :D

    And not dumb, just not immediately obvious ;)
     
  49. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    Just mixed up some 2.5% benzoic acid in 100mg/ml nicotine. It has a pretty strong "benzene" smell. Is this normal?
     
    David Wolf likes this.
  50. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    Messages:
    11,199

Share This Page

Close This Message