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DIY Nic Salts.

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - Recipes' started by FrostyMtl, May 12, 2017.

  1. Mc viper

    Mc viper New Member

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    BA is also called E210 and it's a food preservative.
     
  2. Adil DADA

    Adil DADA New Member

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    Can we fucin stop disxussing politics here?
     
  3. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    you can....as far as I know the rest of us are free to do whatever the fuck we want.
     
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  4. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    If you have access to scales that measure to 0.01g, then mixing BA into your nic base is the preferred method given that you probably need to heat it for it to dissolve completely. Note that when I received my BA from eBay, it had a bit of a smell to it, and even once mixed into the nic base it did so. I let it breathe for a couple of days before use, and I couldn't smell or taste it by then.

    Because by adding BA to nic you are creating a new compound (?) ... nicotine benzoate ... then it shouldn't oxidise after that, but I would always mix up only enough for the forseeable future.
     
  5. rainmakr

    rainmakr New Member

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    After reading this entire fascinating thread I was all set to convert my 50mL of 100mg/mL PG freebase in my freezer.. I was going to dissolve 3.75g (.75x5g) of BA in 50mL of warm VG, then mix it with the 50mL of my PG freebase. This would give me 100mL of 50/50 50mg/ml nic salt...? This way I avoid having to heat my nic averting degradation. Or can I just add the 3.75 BA to my freebase, shake it good until the BA dissolves and call it a day.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  6. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    If you have read the patent, you'll see that JUUL used heat to fully dissolve the BA and so I have never tried dissolving the BA without heat ... but you can always try it ;) In the original mix I made, I dissolved my acid powder (in that case, citric acid) in heated VG then mixed that with my nic base and kept that at 55/60C for a 1/2 hour or so.

    Please keep us informed how effective your method is, if you go that way ;)
     
  7. Mc viper

    Mc viper New Member

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    Hello everyone!
    Last week I received the BA. Mine is slightly perfumed , I ordered it in a pharmacy. I joined it to PG and warmed up. It took less than 5 minutes to dissolve. I then combined it with the free base nicotine solution to obtain a concentration of 36 mg / ml. I then put the liquid in a kayfun mini, setting the power to 7w. I must say that despite the rather high strength of nicotine, it is very smooth for the throat. In less than 2 minutes I perceived the nicotinic buzz, both in the brain and at the physical level, much more satisfying than the usual free base nicotine. After a week I use it (20/30 puff per day) I did not find any problem.
    Thanks to all the members of this thread who introduced me to a product that otherwise I could never find in Italy.
     
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  8. mkasera

    mkasera New Member

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    I'm curious about the benzoic acid everyone is using. How pure is it?

    USP grade BA from a pharma company is pretty expensive.
     
  9. Mc viper

    Mc viper New Member

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    I paid it €4 for 100g but I don't know how pure it is... I bought it in a pharmacy.
     
  10. mkasera

    mkasera New Member

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    David Wolf likes this.
  11. Mc viper

    Mc viper New Member

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  12. mkasera

    mkasera New Member

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    Does my nic have to be fresh? What if it is already partially oxidized? Will the reaction still happen?
     
  13. virgos

    virgos New Member

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    Need some help here guys,
    I have pure nic (1000mg/ml) and also created the 10% BA solution (10g BA + 45g VG + 45g PG).
    I want to make a 100 mg/ml saltnic base (higher on VG as possible).
    How should I mix it?
     
  14. virgos

    virgos New Member

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    Could you please clarify why does 10% BA is 138mg/ml BA?
     
  15. rainmakr

    rainmakr New Member

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    Not entirely sure if what I am about to say is correct (someone correct me if i'm wrong)..
    If you already have pure nic and you want as high as possible VG final product, all you should have to do is dump your 10% solution, then:
    dissolve .75x10=7.5g of BA in 50ml of VG. Once cooled add another 50ml of VG and 10g of pure nic. This should yield ~100ml of 100mg/ml nic salts in 100% VG.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  16. Neunerball

    Neunerball Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Is there a way of getting just the salts, not deluted in PG/VG?
     
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  17. Iggyikky

    Iggyikky New Member

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    Hey guys, wondering if anybody has some tips here;
    I've been reading up on this post for a while and finally decided to order some Benzoic acid from fastchem on ebay (99.9% purity) to give it a go.
    Came in a 100gr. plastic bottle and smellingit from this bottle seems to match the description I read earlier. It has a slight smell of something. Can't describe it but not pleasant.
    Did a first try to make a 50mg nic salt solution with 100mg nic base according to the formula written on the first page.
    The result seems fine to me. Final mix I used this 'nic salt base' in came out to 24mg/ml and though very smooth (arguably too smooth) the nic buzz is fast and noticeable.
    Now the problem is, it tastes like shit....
    I prepared the juice with Rhodonite (DIYorDIE seemed appropriate in this case :)) at the suggested 9.5% for the concentrate so it can't be the flavors.
    It actually tatses as it smelled when I heated up the liquid (VG in my case) to dissolve the BA in so I'm pretty sure that's what's causing it.
    Is this something you guys got as well? Is it maybe the BA that isn't the best quality? Any ways to mittigate this? I read somewhere earlier that a 'cap off' steep helped to remove the flavour but that hasn't worked after two days now. Maybe I should let the dissolved BA liquid air out on it's own before mixing it further into nic? Maybe there's flavors that do a better job at masking the BA flavor?
    I'm not expecting any wonders here, after all, it's purpose is for providing nic, flavor is for flavor atties with a nice 6mg liquid but at this point it's really bad.
    Any help or your experiences greatly appreciated.
     
  18. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    Yep. The explanation is here.
     
  19. Coffeeholic

    Coffeeholic New Member

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    Hi all.

    Please help me with this.

    I have 100 ml. of 52 mg/ml PG nicotine base.

    How many grams of citric acid should i use to make nicotine salt from this?

    Thank you
     
  20. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    wow ..thers' quite a discussion on this on the ECF forum...from what I've been reading it's not so much a certain number but the guys who've been doing it use an electronic Ph tester to to bring the ph of the nic base up to a certain level and go from there.
     
  21. Coffeeholic

    Coffeeholic New Member

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    Thanks @pulsevape

    I think i have it (see http://www.vtvapor.com/recipes.html - Formerly Vermont Vapor)

    If i want to make 100 ml of 52 mg/ml nicotine salt, based on Vermont Vapor recipe i do as follow:

    1. Make a Citric Acid base - Mix 1 gram Citric Acid to 1 ml of destilled water, PG or VG and stir until fully desolved. (heating the CA base in short 10 second bursts in the micro owen, until its warm to the hand, will help disolve the CA).

    2. Mix 0.0007566 CA base x 52 (mg/ml) x 100 (amount in ml of the PG base) = 3,93 ml.

    So, if i add 3,93 ml. of the CT base to my 100 ml. of 52 mg/ml PG i will have 52 mg/ml Nicotine salt.

    Atleast i think so..
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  22. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    yeah, one of the things people seem to have trouble with is getting the CA to dissolve in PG they have been recommending grinding the CA down some way to make it easier to dissolve and using heat to help dissolve it....CA seems to dissolve well in water but most people don't want water in their juice.
     
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  23. Coffeeholic

    Coffeeholic New Member

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    Just made this.

    Made a small test batch of 10 ml. 70/30 pg/vg, (10 mg/ml).

    Added ~0.75 ml citric acid base (0.0007566 x 10 x 10 = 0,07566

    Definitely a smoother vape.
     
  24. Coffeeholic

    Coffeeholic New Member

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    Yes, i read that aswell.

    I used a DIY magnetic stirrer (really easy if anyone is interested http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Cheap-Portable-Magnetic-Stirrer/)

    I had no water to the vg so this vorked really well for me. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction! :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  25. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I'm gonna try a benzoic acid mix I think...people keep saying the CA nic salts gunk coils slightly faster than free base nic.
     
  26. Coffeeholic

    Coffeeholic New Member

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    Cool. I'll post back after i've tried this a while.

    Hopefully coils gunking up won't be a big problem. I can't get my hands on benzoic acid where i live.
     
  27. Iggyikky

    Iggyikky New Member

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    I have been using benzoic acid and have not had problems with coils or wicks getting guncked or blocked. I'm an avid rayon user so result may be different on on cotton. Still haven't quite solved the flavor issue I had although it has improved by steeping over two weeks to a month. I'm hesitant to order some new benzoic acid, not knowing if this might be the issue. Besides, made a pretty big pilot batch so still going through that.
     
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  28. CRAZY-I

    CRAZY-I New Member

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    If your benzoic acid has a smell, you need to do it.
    1. Recrystallization.
    2. Sublimation.

    On YouTube you can find a video how to do it. it's very simple and fast enough.
     
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  29. CRAZY-I

    CRAZY-I New Member

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    You can do only sublimation, but it must be done 2 times.
    it is easier to make, than recrystallization.
    I already did it. the result is excellent.
     
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  30. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 Member For 1 Year

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    Is this needed because the Benzoic isn't pure enough?
     
  31. CRAZY-I

    CRAZY-I New Member

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    Yes and If your benzoic acid has a smell
     
  32. Iggyikky

    Iggyikky New Member

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    Sorry for the late reply. Been busy. Thanks! I'll give that a try. The GF is a lab technician and I have a chemical background as well. We shouldn't run into problems.
     
  33. ssbowtie1

    ssbowtie1 Member For 1 Year

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    Hi all, is there any way to test the nicotine concentration nicotine in the salt nicotine that you buy from places like Nude Nicotine? I assume that standard titration kits won't work.
     
  34. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    Standard titration kits don't work, and I don't think any DIY solution will ... unless you have access to one of these babies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry

    However, I'm no chemist ;)
     
  35. Iggyikky

    Iggyikky New Member

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    Recrystallization worked out great. No more odor or taste left, very fine crystals. Helps with dissolving too.
    Think I will do this with all of the ba I get. Just to be sure.
    Process is so easy they actually use it to teach about (re-)crystalization.
     
  36. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years Unlisted Vendor

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  37. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    could you post the youtube videos that explain these process.
     
  38. CRAZY-I

    CRAZY-I New Member

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    All the processes specified in the video can be simplified. This is done very simply. You do not need special tools, all the actions can be done with the help of household utensils. I do not have a chemical laboratory, everything was done with a pair of measuring glass cups and an electric cooker.
    Recrystallization.



    Sublimation.
     
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  39. CRAZY-I

    CRAZY-I New Member

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    the one who wants, everything will turn out
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  40. virgos

    virgos New Member

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    Need some help,
    I have pure nic (1000mg/ml) and I want to make 1000ml of 100 mg/ml saltnic base (50/50 PG/VG).
    How much grams BA should I use?
    How much grams pure nic?
    How much grams PG and VG?
    Thank you in advance!
     
  41. virgos

    virgos New Member

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    :bunny:
    Nobody know or can help? :(
     
  42. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    I wouldn't make up a litre to start with, without you ever having tried it.

    If you refer to the JUUL patent, for every 1 gramme of nicotine you'll require 0.75g of BA for full conversion (or for every mg of nic, 0.75mg of BA, less if you don't want full conversion) so 100mg/ml nic base will require 75mg BA ... for every ml


    So ... assuming you'll only make 100ml (of 100mg/ml) as a large trial, the following should be accurate:

    50ml of VG0
    40ml of PG0 (assumes the nic is counted as PG)
    10ml of 1000mg/ml nic "base"
    7.5g of BA (100ml x 100mg/ml x 0.75)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  43. virgos

    virgos New Member

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    Thank you for your reply!
    50ml VG + 40ml PG + 10ml pure nic = 100ml
    Just to clarify, the BA don't take any volume in the final mix? 7.5g BA would dissolve totally in the solution without taking any volume???
     
  44. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    The BA will add to the volume I believe, but it will be minimal IMO, and I don't recall measuring it. Try it and see ;) measure the increase in volume and add to our knowledge by posting it :cheers:
     
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  45. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    A small experiment this arvo, I added 75g of citric acid to 75ml of DW and the final volume (once dissolved) ended up at approx 115ml ... so yes, volume will be increased when adding your crystallised/powdered acid.
     
  46. virgos

    virgos New Member

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    Thanks!
    Is there a way to know exactly how much each gram of dissolved BA will add to the volume?
     
  47. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 3 Years

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    IF the BA closely resembles the CA experiment, then approx 0.65ml/g ... so for 7.5g of BA, then around 4.9ml. But, if you mix:

    50ml of VG0
    10ml of 1000mg/ml nic "base"
    7.5g of BA (100ml x 100mg/ml x 0.75)
    and top up with PG0 to 100ml (approx 35ml) you take the volume increase of adding the BA out of the equation.
     
  48. virgos

    virgos New Member

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    From my experiment, the BA is approximately 1.4ml/g (melted in 50% PG / 50% VG).
    To dissolve the BA I warm the solution to 60 degrees Celsius. Because of that I only add the nicotine after the BA solution is ready and cool down.
    So what I do:
    I add 41.52g of PG + 63g of VG + 7.275g of BA
    Dissolve this solution in 60 degrees Celsius.
    The total volume in the final solution is approx. 100.2ml.
    After cooling down, I take 90ml from this solution and add to it 10ml of 1000mg/ml nic base.
    My final solution is approx. 100ml of 100mg/ml salt nic 50/50 PG/VG.

    **** Update ****
    My measurements was wrong!
    After cooling down, the mixed solution loosed some volume.
    Need to measure again...
    Will update.
    ******************************
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2018
  49. Yakhunt

    Yakhunt New Member

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    Evening, long time lurker, first time poster. Joined due to this thread peaking my interest.

    I'm mainly a 6mg sub-ohm dripper man and for this I get shortfills and add 72mg nic to the correct ratio. However, I am intrigued by the promise of a smoother vape at higher nic strengths for those situations where I want a quicker hit, evening on the beer for example or for stealth in a lower powered set up, train travel etc.

    I've tried to digest and make sense of all I've read here to see what I'd need to do to use nic salts with my current shortfills and come up with the following. Can anyone tell me if I am making sense?

    1) Create Solution of BA

    Mix 10g of BA into 90g of VG, heat to 55C, stir and store at will. N.B 90g of VG is approximately 72ml (assuming the specific gravity of your VG is 1.25). Each ml of this mix contains 138mg of BA, so 138mg/ml.

    2) Mixing with 72mg NIc

    For each ml of the base (which contains 72mg of nicotine) add 72 x 0.75 = 54mg of benzoic acid.

    100ml of 72mg/ml base
    100 x 54 = 5.4g BA

    If the 10% VG BA solution is 138mg/ml and 5.4g are required for 100ml of 72mg base then:

    5400 / 138 = 39.1ml of BA

    Total Volume =139ml
    72 / 139 = 52mg/ml or 5.2% Nic

    3) Adding to shortfill

    So, with a 50ml shortfill, to make 12mg/ml, for example, add 15.15 ml of the 52mg/ml Nic Salt

    Correct or batshit insane?
     
  50. bhaviljain68

    bhaviljain68 New Member

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    Hello Everyone,

    So, I've been reading up on the thread since a few days.
    Could use some help, Please let me know if my calculations are correct.

    I have 200mg/ml (100% PG solution) freebase Nicotine from hiliq.

    So in order to make 50 ml of 100mg/ml nic salts in 100% PG solution I would add.
    1. 25ml of freebase nic (200mg/ml X 25ml = 5000mg/5g?).
    2. 3.75g of BA (0.75 BA per gram of nic, so 5 gram in my case give me 5 X 0.75= 3.75).
    3. 20 ml PG (Leaving 5ml room for increase in volume by BA ).

    And the process I would follow is :
    Add 3.75 g of BA in 20ml PG, heat it up to 60 degrees Celsius, let it mix up (stir it??). Then let it cool down and add 25ml of my freebase nic into it.

    someone please tell me if this is the correct formulation?? I could really use the help.

    Also, would it be possible to get a higher nic concentration by altering the proportion of the extra pg that I'm adding?? Like can i mix 3.75g of BA to 5ml of pg? Or maybe 1 ml of PG? that would result in something like 190mg/ml of saltnic. This would allow me to make VG heavy saltnic eliquids.

    Thanks in advance.. :)
     

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