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Do we have a responsibility?
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AndriaD
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I was going to post this a few days ago... but thx to my HD crash a few weeks ago, I no longer had the one I originally created, nor could I find it on google, though I'm sure I've posted something similar around here before... so I had to remake it from scratch. 
The name of the image is speciousarguments.jpg, which says it all.
Andria
The name of the image is speciousarguments.jpg, which says it all.
Andria
Regardless of how many feel, it is a valid topic for discussion. As noted several times my original position was changed thanks to many of the more respectful comments from the community. Yet the topic itself still remains. Marketing to children is a perception that many anti-vapers hold. Perhaps they have an ulterior motive and are being paid by big pharma or tobacco. In fact, I read an article today that vaping leads to a decline of white blood cells. Again, though, who paid for that study and what controls were used? It's likely the same controls used when studying popcorn lung.
Ignoring the subject will not make it go away. Bashing the person who brought it up will not make it go away. Trying to censor someone by bullying them will not make it go away. Trying to nitpick someone's posts for minor errors unrelated to the topic will not make it go away. As long as the perception exists many anti-vapers will bring it up to Congress.
The inherent problem is that there does not appear to be any benefit for non-smokers to take up vaping. There is no proven health benefit to vaping. Nicotine is generally harmless but is still highly addictive; that is the only negative health benefit that is 100% proven. The anti-vaping studies exist but, as we all know, these studies are ridiculous.
We can all put our heads in the sand and hope they do not place further restrictions on vaping or we can get out there and lobby congress to favor vaping as an anti-smoking device. I have already written my congressman twice about the benefits of vaping for ex-smokers. I suggest many of you do the same.
Ignoring the subject will not make it go away. Bashing the person who brought it up will not make it go away. Trying to censor someone by bullying them will not make it go away. Trying to nitpick someone's posts for minor errors unrelated to the topic will not make it go away. As long as the perception exists many anti-vapers will bring it up to Congress.
The inherent problem is that there does not appear to be any benefit for non-smokers to take up vaping. There is no proven health benefit to vaping. Nicotine is generally harmless but is still highly addictive; that is the only negative health benefit that is 100% proven. The anti-vaping studies exist but, as we all know, these studies are ridiculous.
We can all put our heads in the sand and hope they do not place further restrictions on vaping or we can get out there and lobby congress to favor vaping as an anti-smoking device. I have already written my congressman twice about the benefits of vaping for ex-smokers. I suggest many of you do the same.
Laws already exist making it illegal to sell or provide vaping supplies to children. People under the legal smoking age aren't even allowed inside vape shops in my area. The store windows must be obscured so no one is able to see inside, children included. There is absolutely no mass media marketing of vaping products, though I saw a big tobacco made product on an electronic billboard earlier today.
How exactly is anyone marketing to kids? Is there a vape kids menu I'm unaware of? Are they handing out coupons for e-juice with every Highlights or Tiger Beat subscription?
...and no benefits at all of nicotine to non smokers, eh? Better check your Funk & Wagnalls there buddy boy, because once again you are dead wrong.
FFS.
How exactly is anyone marketing to kids? Is there a vape kids menu I'm unaware of? Are they handing out coupons for e-juice with every Highlights or Tiger Beat subscription?
...and no benefits at all of nicotine to non smokers, eh? Better check your Funk & Wagnalls there buddy boy, because once again you are dead wrong.
FFS.
He wrote 2 whole letters but here I thought my Advocating for vaping for the last3-4 years wasn't enough? Last round of letters I sent out was a Mass Email Campaign Sponsored by (I think) CASAA and I received a hell of a lot more than just 2 replies. Oh yeah that was about STOPPING THE PROPOSED FLAVOR BAN in my State.
No fucking shit, Sherlock. Do you think you discovered this on your own?
Why does my post upset you so much?
Fwiw zeeter, and I only bring this up to help enlighten, but your earlier comment about gateway drugs has been debunked as prohibitionist propaganda.
As for perceptions, there are a lot of incorrect ones floating around out there, and many are intentionally perpetuated by those who would prefer that this vaping thing of ours be regulated out of existence. THAT is why I suggested that you reconsider your actions when you're considering both taking and discussing a favorable stance towards more restrictive legislation.
Most people who are for tougher legislation, or outright bans, will willfully ignore all of us when we stand up and speak highly of vaping and it's benefits. However, they will readily and happily take note and use for their own purposes a vaper who happens to agree with their agenda. "Look, this guy is a vaper and even HE thinks it's blah blah blah."
I didn't start out in this thread trying to be a bully, though I guess I could have explained myself more clearly and with a bit more sensitivity to begin with. You are getting a lot of misguided information from somewhere and regurgitating it as fact, however, though I can appreciate your ability to listen to reason and potentially see things from more than one perspective.
Vape on.
As for perceptions, there are a lot of incorrect ones floating around out there, and many are intentionally perpetuated by those who would prefer that this vaping thing of ours be regulated out of existence. THAT is why I suggested that you reconsider your actions when you're considering both taking and discussing a favorable stance towards more restrictive legislation.
Most people who are for tougher legislation, or outright bans, will willfully ignore all of us when we stand up and speak highly of vaping and it's benefits. However, they will readily and happily take note and use for their own purposes a vaper who happens to agree with their agenda. "Look, this guy is a vaper and even HE thinks it's blah blah blah."
I didn't start out in this thread trying to be a bully, though I guess I could have explained myself more clearly and with a bit more sensitivity to begin with. You are getting a lot of misguided information from somewhere and regurgitating it as fact, however, though I can appreciate your ability to listen to reason and potentially see things from more than one perspective.
Vape on.
I respect your opinion and your position on the matter.
My concern is that without real advocates for vaping we have only a few small niche companies defending our rights. These companies cannot afford to perform or fund scientific studies like big tobacco can.
If we all write our representatives it is possible to make a difference. As noted above, I have done so twice, though my letters were on the draconian requirements that the FDA put forth about getting approval to sell products containing ingredients that the FDA has already deemed safe.
I know that the perceptions I pointed out are false or misrepresented as I have done my homework. I also know kids are going to get their hands on it no matter what happens just like they do with cigarettes and alcohol.
My original position was that if they are going to get their hands on it anyway, then why make it even more appealing by providing candy-type flavors. That was a misguided opinion on my part and I freely admit to that.
My worry is that if we ignore the matter the larger pockets of big pharma will simply take over.
Keep hammering away at those politicians with well reasoned arguments in favor of vaping, and demand that your voice be heard. No argument here about that. If we as a community don't, then you are correct that the large incumbent government sponsored drug dealers will surely do whatever they can to corner the market.
jwill
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Companies are always going to market in two fashions. 1. To the purse 2. To the one tugging at the purse. The core argument being missed on you is restricting adults in the name of saving children is bullshit.
Its the parents responsibility to reign their shitty kids in and keep them under control. I don't want you or the government making those decisions for me.
JuicyLucy
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While not 100% "proven" there are number of studies that show nicotine is quite beneficial to treat some forms of dementia and the fine motor skills of those afflicted with Parkinson's Disease
It surely is one of the most addictive substances on earth the need for nicotine has killed more people than any other drug and you say its non addictive.. whaa
Nicotine, in and of itself, is not the most addictive component of cigarettes. It's when it's combined with the other complimentary substances in tobacco where the real relenting addiction comes into play.
It's why it's not the end of the world if you're unable to vape for a bit, but you'd be climbing the walls and tearing peoples heads off at the very idea of being unable to smoke a cig. In my experience and understanding of it, anyway.
Sorry there but Nicotine did not kill people it was the delivery system namely Smoking and the cancer Causing Chemicals ingested along with the Nicotine.
AndriaD
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And it's hard to say for sure, but since I started raising my nic level from 3mg back up to 5mg, I do seem to have less of that "tip of the tongue" problem. I'm currently vaping 4.2mg, so even a slight increase seems to be helping.
Andria
I hadn't really thought about that, but it's very true!! When I used to smoke, I HAD to have another cigarette before long! Vaping helped me quit a few years ago, and now I can go quite awhile without vaping. I simply WANT to vape because I enjoy the different flavors, but I don't HAVE to vape and I'm perfectly fine when I don't.
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I did not know that, thanks Lucy!
I will say that nicotine is a stimulant and vaping it has helped with my IBS-C. Seriously, no shit!
Could not agree more. Add the inhalation of fiberglass to that list as well.
JuicyLucy
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I did not know that, thanks Lucy!
I will say that nicotine is a stimulant and vaping it has helped with my IBS-C. Seriously, no shit!
I can believe it on the IBS - when I quit smoking for vaping the liver spots disappeared from my hands and I was able to drop all the horrible RA meds
I have read the articles on the research on isolated nicotine and its benefits - there are many promising avenues.
It's why I don't plan on quitting vaping
What's more worrisome in regards to children?
1) minors getting their hands on vape gear that contains a potentially addictive chemical in nicotine that can only legally be purchased by those 18+.
Or
The obscene amount of sugar found in most foods that any minor can purchase damn near everywhere. Sugar is arguably ( some studies believe so) the most addictive substance on earth and the leading cause of obesity and diabetes. Where's the witch hunt on sugar?
1) minors getting their hands on vape gear that contains a potentially addictive chemical in nicotine that can only legally be purchased by those 18+.
Or
The obscene amount of sugar found in most foods that any minor can purchase damn near everywhere. Sugar is arguably ( some studies believe so) the most addictive substance on earth and the leading cause of obesity and diabetes. Where's the witch hunt on sugar?
wildgypsy70
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This ^^^^^
I can believe it. Smoking contributed to my IBS-C whereas vaping nicotine without all the junk contained in cigarettes has actually helped. I no longer go almost a full week without using the bathroom like I did when I smoked.
I'm going to read up more on nicotine. I've noticed how I'm very relaxed and happy while vaping than when I smoked. To me vaping flavors has a similar effect that aroma therapy has.
"the need for nicotine "
Is that the case so you are telling me that long before modern techniques for creating cigarettes that since the 1700's people just said "Hmmm Im goinig to smoke that there tobacco leaf for no freaking reason" They smoked it for the Nicotine ..
AndriaD
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I usually have IBS-C, but it can fluctuate wildly into IBS-D if I'm under terrible stress -- y'know, like having a big chunk of my colon removed, a/k/a appendectomy. Plain nicotine vaping didn't help at all, but smoking did -- and when I finally mustered myself sufficiently to put the damn coffin nails down again but the cravings AND the D came back, WTA helped enormously.
Tip for those with any form of IBS -- appendectomy will cause the WORST nausea of your life. Don't eat anything solid, afterward, for at least a week. You'll be seeing it again, and liquids are easier.
Andria
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That’s crazy talk, adults like tasty treats as well. I mean Christ I’m not giving up fruity pebbles either. The cereal not the juice. I prefer tobacco type flavors in my juice. We need to fix the problem which is kids will be kids and lawmakers need to start working for the people instead of the special interest groups. If anything it’s our responsibility to educate the masses that the flavor of the juice isn’t the problem. It’s idiotic thinking to ban something because it tastes good and therefore a child may also like it. Ultimately the responsibility lays/lies with the individual. I can stand how people in this country think sometimes, always looking who to blame. For Christ’s sake people need to stop that crap, quit blaming other people/things for your problems. Now god dammit someone help me down off this soapbox. I’m getting to old for this shit.
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P** doesn’t cause people to try stronger drugs. Alcohol would be more likely because of the inhabiting effects of alcohol. *** generally makes people chill. Even s**ivas that are supposed to be “daytime use” or “energizing” still cause you to chill. It’s just less likely you’ll suffer from “couch lock”. Anyway screw the children, if they want to try vaping they will and it’s not terrible for their health so no serious damage is done. We need less laws, less restrictions on things, and more accountability. Or as Butters would say, more “accountabillabuddies”. Now let’s bow our heads and pray away the gay because Butters is still confused and possibly a little bi.
Modern tobacco is engineered to keep you hooked even harder than all natural 1700's tobacco, as you put it, but even all natural organic tobacco has those complementary elements within it. Which is why it's always been difficult to go without once you're addicted.
1700's people smoked it for the buzz, ceremonies, or for whatever reason people chose to do the things they did back then, but it was the combination of the nicotine PLUS the other naturally occurring elements within the plant which caused them to become hopelessly addicted.
Nicotine by itself is addictive, however if you're only addicted to the nicotine by itself it's a much easier addiction to break. Research seems to agree with that. However, when you're addicted to the combination of nicotine and naturally occurring maoi's and whatever else, then you're in for a lifelong struggle.
AndriaD
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It's really more like caffeine's "dependence-producing", rather than full-on addiction. I mean, caffeine withdrawal will cause the mother of all headaches, but it won't make you rob a liquor store so you can get your fix. Same for nicotine. Cigarette addiction, on the other hand, may lead to such charming behaviors as raiding the butts out of public ashtrays, just to get that fix. I'm not proud of it, but I've done it, back in my younger and much poorer years. In later years, it was more like, my husband rolling pennies to get me that pack of smokes -- he's been a non-smoker for 45 yrs, but he's a wise man who knows better than to get between a jonesing cigarette smoker and her next pack.
Andria
I would tend to agree with that. After being completely tobacco smoke free for nearly 2 years, I ran out of juice one evening and was unable to get more until the next afternoon. The better part of 24 hours without nic, and it felt more like being sleep deprived than fiending for a hit.
Huge, and I mean HUGE difference than when I was a smoker and was unable to smoke. No question about it.
AndriaD
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Yep. Back in Feb, at which point I'd been smoke-free for about 3 and a half yrs, I got that horrible flu... and didn't vape AT ALL for nearly 2 wks, and really didn't miss it. That never happened with any sickness, when I smoked -- I clearly recall being felled just as horribly by flu about 30 yrs ago, and laying there on the couch for 3 wks, unable to walk further than the bathroom (which felt like running a goddamn marathon)... and smoking, the entire time, if I wasn't asleep. When docs or dentists would advise me not to smoke for this or that reason, I'd laugh at them and inform them that smoking was going to happen, no matter what they thought about it -- if I had a tooth extracted, I'd cut my filters in half so I wouldn't get the bleeding started again.
Smoking was non-negotiable.
Vaping... well, if I'm in my usual health, I'd rather not have to do without it, but in a store or restaurant, I can (grudgingly) do without... but if it's raining outside, then after I eat, I'm gonna stealth-vape in the ladies room -- what they don't know will never hurt them, and 87% PG at 9.6w is real easy to stealth vape.
And if I'm really sick, I probably won't vape -- I have asthma, so breathing is already a serious issue if I had the flu, and I've learned that if you're nauseous, ecig vapor smells sickening, even to the person emitting it.Some of my well-intentioned but severely ignorant relatives have questioned why I don't quit, if i can do without it for that long, with pretty much no discomfort... so I have to explain about the idiot in my brain who did this stupid behavior for 39 years, and is prone to making suggestions about resuming it, even after 4 yrs without it, and how I get around that idiot by continuing to vape. I wouldn't call them cravings, I've felt those and this is nothing like it... but a suggestion of an addict's preferred longterm activity is nearly as bad, but can be easily countered by vaping. Which might look stupid to those who don't do it, but it really beats the living shit out of smoking... even for those not yet 18 yrs old.
Andria
You nailed sir!
The easiest and most readily available drugs for kids sits in mom and dads liquor and medicine cabinets. Pain killers, sleep meds, valium, *pium and h*roin are all derived from the poppy flower. Guess where a majority of that grows? Afghanistan. Big oil ain't the only reason troops are in Afghanistan, big pharma wants them guarding those poppy fields which I have seen pictures of. It's all smoke and mirrors with politicians hence why for decades they've villianized a literally harmless green plant to keep people's attention off of the real problem, which BTW makes big pharma billions every year. Big pharma doesn't want people healthy and living free, it cuts into their insane profits.
/rant
Obesity is taking over the world's populace. I've been going to Thailand for 21 years and I've seen the dramatic increase first hand in a population whose cuisine is extremely healthy and free from refined sugars.
Obesity is the greatest health risk in the world, costs the most, will kill the most and has a massive knock on effect throughout societies beyond health costs. In some countries over 60% of the population is either obese or headed towards it, such as the US. Yet, all the focus is on the 13% or so of smokers. Humans are really irrational creatures.
How can that be proven? It's quite simple. Give animals and humans straight nicotine in varying dosages and for varying lengths of time and see what happens? Scientists have been able to get some animals dependent on cigarettes (that's got to be a laugh a minute experiment). So, all we need is for someone to run those tests. Oh, wait a minute, they've been done. Guess what the result was. Nicotine, by itself, is no more addictive than caffeine. Both can easily be stopped with a couple of days of discomfort at worst.
It's astounding how the entire smoking conversation was manipulated so damn near everyone believes that nicotine is the problem.
Not to mention, most of us did a fair bit of independent research of our own. We got ourselves good and addicted to tobacco, and then attempted to replace that tobacco with:
Nicotine Gum
Nicotine Patches
Nicotine Lozenges
Nicotine Sprays
Nicotine Inhalers
None of which were able to keep us from picking up the smokes again, usually in short order. Even the first while of going from smoking to exclusively vaping was no picinic... But the desire to quit, continued hand to mouth, and better tasting flavors, helped to keep us motivated to quit long enough to detox from those other addiction inducing tobacco elements.
And here we are.
Just saw an article today that many former smokers gain weight but the health benefits of quitting smoking outweighs the risks and health issues of being a few pounds overweight. Also easier to deal with gaining a few pounds with diet and proper exercise to name a few remedies.
Smoking does suppress the appetite so I can believe that some would gain weight after quitting smoking.
The thing about diet and exercise is it requires people to make the effort and it's obvious many don't make that effort seeing as how obesity is such a problem these days. Americans spend too much time in front of the idiot box snacking on absolute garbage and watching their can't miss TV episodes with numerous fast food commercials. To be honest it's pathetic.
AndriaD
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Smokers are easy to hate on, because their smell is so foul; that foul smell also makes them easy to identify, and I guess the logic is something like "anything that smells that bad is surely going to immediately kill anyone who smells it." Or something equally simplistic and ridiculous. I will never argue that smoking isn't harmful, because it most certainly is... but there are a lot of reasons to do it, and addiction is only one of them -- the issues with auto-immune problems is another, including the various forms of IBS -- which unlike IBD is not auto-immune, but more stress-related -- and guess what, smoking is a stress-reliever, and several of the "minor" alkaloids are potent anti-inflammatories.
2nd-hand smoke is another issue that's gotten blown WAYYYYYYYYY out of proportion to its actual harm -- yes, it can be harmful to SOME people, with existing lung problems, allergies, and various other health issues... but it's not an immediate death sentence to catch a whiff of it. Even for those who do have a legitimate issue with it, it's the repeated, constant exposure that makes it most dangerous, not catching the scent now and then.
I agree that obesity is by far the worst current health problem, but blaming it all on sugar is just as simplistic as blaming cigarette addiction solely on nicotine. There are a lot of factors involved, but I think the most likely is that people just aren't taught the proper way to eat. And even if they do pay some attention to nutrition, most nutritional guidelines are for the "generic human" -- which doesn't actually exist; everyone is vastly different in how their metabolism operates, and how it responds to various carbs and other nutritional components. And also, you have that nasty problem of self-control -- chocolate chip cookies are just too easy to capture, and if 2 are good, then half a pkg must be even better, right?
Or screw that, just eat the WHOLE pkg, since the grocery store is right down the street, you can always get MORE. THAT is the problem. Humans started out as hunter-gatherers, and it takes a lot of man-hours to find enough to sustain you; then, we discovered/invented agriculture... which still took a lot of man-hours to render viable foodstuffs. Now? Super-Walmart is open 24 hrs, and has every form of nutrition, both good and bad, the human animal could possibly want. We didn't evolve in a landscape of Super-Walmarts; we evolved in an era of needing a lot of man-hours and pure exertion just to keep body and soul together. Now we don't need that much exertion to fetch even a week's or month's worth of food... but many people still eat as if they do. Then they get fat, so they do stupid things like fasting, or rigorous dieting, which just makes the body think it's a famine, better hold on to as much fat as possible, so the body doesn't starve.
Teaching people HOW to eat should be required in every single grade of school. It's the only way we're going to survive the obesity epidemic.
Andria