Doctors suspect vaping behind dozens of lung illnesses in U.S.

Discussion in 'The Bad' started by iVapeDIY, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I’m not sure this was all about a pro vaping circle jerk, though. I think it’s about having bad science presented as “facts”.
    I’m not certain there is anything political being engaged in here, except for vaping being highlighted again by the FDA and their supporters. I’m not asking anyone to agree with me about vaping, but I’d appreciate some real factual evidence—not Ants-y type faux science.


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  2. AndriaD

    AndriaD Will Summer EVER be over?? VU Donator Diamond Contributor ECF Refugee Member For 5 Years

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    I'm just really glad that VU doesn't have those asinine "BNBR" rules like they have at Quora. I have to bite my tongue 87 times a day when assholes there post all the smoke nazi bullshit, rather than calling them the stupid asshole which they very clearly are. I have zero tolerance for stupidity, and I love VU because I don't have to PRETEND to tolerate stupid assholes!

    If people here can't stand the heat, they're usually encouraged to leave the kitchen -- I have been, and I got over my hurt widdle feelings. That /ignore feature is real handy too, both to me, to avoid most of the REALLY stupid assholes, and for them to likewise avoid me. I really wish some of them would put me on /ignore!

    Andria
     
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  3. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I was answering the person I put on ignore, not you! His posts bugged me since it was so obviously wrong.


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  4. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Would you happen to know who sponsored that UNC study into vaping? Just curious.

    Edit: I’m not getting on *your*case, Boogieman. I was trying to ask the guy who posted the reference to a vaping study which was not so credible, imo. It’s harder than I thought to un-ignore someone!
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  5. AndriaD

    AndriaD Will Summer EVER be over?? VU Donator Diamond Contributor ECF Refugee Member For 5 Years

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    I know. :) It's entirely possible that I got a little carried away, but... I spend a lot of time at Quora trying to correct and dispel lies and ignorance and plain asshat prejudice about vaping, but SOMEBODY has to. It's hard for me because tact is not my natural state; blunt truth is more my style, but if I get too blunt at Quora, my answers get collapsed or deleted so my very valuable truth isn't seen. So, occasionally I just get fed up with being tactful to assholes and idiots, so I come here, where I figure I'm surrounded by people of like minds, that vaping is the best thing since the smallpox vaccine. When someone then shovels a load of pure stinking horseshit at me, I come out swinging for the fences.

    There's a name for someone who comes to a vaping forum to spread lies about vaping, nicotine, etc. That name is TROLL. I'm starting to suspect that is the name of the person doing the horseshit shoveling.

    Andria
     
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  6. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I thought it was a troll, too. I’ve only come across them once or twice online, so I wasn’t sure. But posting links to bullshitty studies under the guise of “we should welcome differing views on VU” was kinda a big clue. :smh:


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  7. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 2 Years VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    Well said Bob as always

    .....Except Roger Goodell fuck that guy

    :giggle:
     
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  8. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I don't think it's about having bad science presented as facts. Rather, I think it's about having anti-science endlessly perpetuated as facts... well not endlessly of course, but equally as long as it takes for the general populus to parrot this systemic demonization of vaping and, subsequently, of those who vape, all for the sole purpose of maximizing on blood money because let's face it, what could be more lucrative than keep protecting the multi-billion dollar lie that is "nicotine addiction" like a real nazi... in fact I believe the word "stazi" would be a more fitting description. Like, Stanley Milgram's obiedience to authority, or, when theory finally became practice. So yeah, the circle jerk apostles can politely go jerk off someplace else indeed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  9. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    ...In addition, there should be a 95% tax on not jerking off someplace else indeed, if ultimately that's what it takes for politicians to be able to tell to children stay in drugs, eat your school, and don't do vegetables.
     
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  10. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 2 Years VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    People will always push the boundaries to get the next best thing even those who have been about long enough to see the early devices compared to whats on offer now ...the whole sub ohm movement is an example of the community taking it to the next step using the accepted norms.

    Don’t get me wrong if I hadn’t had gone through that clouds bro stage myself I’d never have given up smoking

    Let’s not pretend this is a youth problem - the whole vaping industry has been geared towards offering more and more ...the latest and greatest more cells more power, more juice consumption, more efficient ways to get nicotine into your system with the introductions of salts etc

    Its hypocritical for people to sit in an ivory tower and look on and cast judgement over this, If the community hadn't gone through those learning cycles we would never have progressed.

    It’s sad some people get hurt truly but it allows you to know what those boundaries are...think of what has come out of it

    battery safety
    devices that are accurate and affordable
    more awareness over flavourings
    choice and ways to vape
    coils and metal understanding
    shops and vendors who provide good practice
    places to express things together and hold companies to account
    the list goes on......

    None of this would have been possible unless the industry tried and failed along the way, it’s still relatively in its infancy and so are the studies that go with it for and against
     
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  11. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 5 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    Which one?

    UNC Tobacco Centers of Regulatory Science - The Food and Drug Administration and the National Institutes of Health fund 14 of these centers around the United States to research tobacco-derived products. UNC is the only institution to have two separate centers—one to study the medical effects of tobacco products, and the other to figure out how to educate the public on the risks (and, perhaps, the benefits).

    Most of the funding comes from the abc organizations, I do know there is at least one business that takes advantages of the services offered.

    https://healthtalk.unchealthcare.org/tcors/
     
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  12. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Similarly, it is hypocritical for people to sit in an ivory tower and look and stigmatize sub ohming by selectively referring to it as "that clouds bro stage", when the reality is that sub ohm vaping with bigger-than-average clouds are also an integral part of the flavor chasing movement. This is because having bigger clouds also opens a real pathway toward having certain, unique kind of effects on several things─other than the level of warmth alone─such as the level of wetness, density, saturation, texture or mouthfeel, each of which are important factors that part determine the flavor experience. Remember this is about actual science vs anti-science so, as you probably could've guessed, the actual science backs up my statement.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3369707
     
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  13. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 2 Years VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    I didn’t it was a separate paragraph

    I sub ohm today and am happy for it you miss the point, if you feel I was categorising clouds bro as a bad thing I was not it’s just a term I still use to describe foggy tanks which I still use to this day
     
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  14. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Fair enough. But I didn't miss the point, as I actually never said you are among those people who label big clouds as a bad thing so I'll just add that some low wattage vapers secretly blame the big cloud chuckers for fear of possible new regulations like vaping in indoor public spaces getting legally banned despite all the evidence very clearly indicates second hand vapor poses no serious health risk to vapers and bystanders, and in fact some low wattage vapers actually even downplay the fact that castration pod systems might soon be the ONLY vape systems that are legally approved by the FDA, like, people who claim smokers will still be able to stop smoking by using these same castration pod systems, and who claim it only because... well, they themselves happen to be low wattage vapers of course so, naturally, they stand a MUCH bigger chance of still being able to find something after the PMTA deadline effectively kills all high wattage vaping devices, like, excepting maybe only a few of the shittiest of the shitty type of high wattage ones.
     
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  15. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Castration pod systems are those specific types of closed pod systems that, largely due to how they are marketed and distributed, are a gateway for (some) vapers to relapse back to smoking and also for smokers to continue to smoke. I.e., it's about mass-propelling the classical old "if product X got me off of smoking cigs, it should work for everyone excepting only for those who are doing it wrong" trojan horse type mentality. Why else do you think JUUL has now left the VTA and didn't oppose the FDA's most recent decision to move back the PMTA deadline? Why else would a corporation like Altria have invested billions in JUUL? Do you know what they say? Once bitten, twice shy. That's what.
     
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  16. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    One could easily say the same sorts of things about the TPD's 20 mg/ml nicotine limit. Some former smokers (myself included) have absolutely no desire to huff giant lung-busting hits in order to get an adequate amount of nicotine.
     
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  17. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Exactly. But you won't very often hear a low wattage vaper say out loud that smokers will still be able to stop smoking by using 20 mg/ml nicotine... only when it's the high wattage vapers who are about to get thrown completely under the bus, that's when there's always at least one low wattage vaper who deems it necessary to chime in by saying smokers will still be able to stop smoking, and, just to further emphasize my point, good luck trying to convince people that huffing giant lung-busting hits on 20 mg/ml nicotine is a fantastic idea. :rolleyes:
     
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  18. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Correct, because low wattage vapers are well aware that some people need more that.

    Good grief, how hard is it to build a box (or tube) that holds enough 18650s to produce however many watts you want?
     
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  19. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Well said. One of those replies that I could wish I’d come up with!


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  20. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Crikes, I’ll have to chase down the OP now. I think it was a University of North Carolina thing, but I am prolly wrong. I never heard of this study group, thanks.


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  21. ajvapes

    ajvapes Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    UNC, don't they do studies on how to increase crop yield of tobacco......The Brits figured it out:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-49001669
     
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  22. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 5 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    They study a lot more than just how to get larger crops of tobacco..
    from Virginia to Georgia, tobacco has been king for many many years..
    In fact, NC is the cheapest place to buy tobacco in the USA... Unless you get the floor sweeping off a res..

    Chapel Hill has many years experience (over 150 yrs) studying tobacco, nicotine and even the flavors we vape today.
     
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  23. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I’m glad it’s not here. I’m not sure what the upside to this Spice thing is, though. It sounds like crack but with fake herbs.


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  24. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    If they hadn’t started taxing it to death, I might still be smoking! NC had great huge warehouses with cheap tobacco when we were there.


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  25. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Sub ohm has maybe helped a lot of people get off the smokes. There was no sub ohm when I first tried vaping. This time around the denser vape felt really good, and helped me stick with it.


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  26. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 2 Years VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    Me too exactly the same

    At that time though when it first came in there were anti calls from vast swathes of people because of pushing battteries further and further (dodgy set up etc), some peeps have got hurt but out of it mooch popped up as a rally call, massive battery safety push by the community, better batteries and safer equipment all came to meet the need for it

    I see this exactly the same it’s like ...teens if you gonna do it, this is where its safe to go this is where it become stupid and you get hurt if you cross it that’s on you...until demand and shops/tech/medical etc catch up to satisfy the need.

    Same with studies keep an open mind...it’s true what caram said a lot is just fear mongering based on gobshite media spinning and bad data sets, some is thought provoking though and we should at least consider things and break it down as to why it’s right or wrong (which I personally think this community does well for the most part) closing them down straight away won’t do much good as it doesn’t provide any answers.

    People should take ownership for their own actions too much nanny state isolating people from all that these days, let people explore and be exposed to as much info as possible to arrive at their own decision

    Just what I think anyway
     
  27. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 5 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    If you are in the UK, spice is called something else.. it is there already..
    It's the stuff that makes people go crazy and do some pretty wild unbelievable things.
    it's just not widely reported.
     
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  28. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I’m in the US now. I think I read something years back about it getting into prisons. Just what they need!
    The side effects seem to be some of the worst I’ve heard about. I don’t get the attraction at all. Maybe it should be reported more widely, though.



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  29. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Of course they are aware of it, and, factually so am I. But my point was I never tried to belittle them about it with exclamations like "good grief, how hard is it to order a 100 mg/ml bottle of nic base from China?".
    Good grief, how hard is it to order a 100 mg/ml bottle of nic base from China? :giggle:
     
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  30. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    [​IMG]
     
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  31. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I almost mentioned that the Spice is the Life! But, the dreck they’re using in RL is driving them loopy unfortunately.

    She’s my favorite character in Dune. Formidable (in French.)
     
  32. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    You tell us. You live in Belgium, right? What are the chances of a liter bottle of nic making it through customs, and what are the consequences if it doesn't, or worse, if they figure out what it is and let you take possession? IIRC, even before the TPD, 72 mg/ml was the strongest that was legal in the EU.
     
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  33. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Yes, Belgium, but no, I have no idea what the chances are. All I know is I heard a story from some guy saying another guy once had to pay a huge fine (3,400 Euros) after they had caught him, and, I don't know how much of the stuff he ordered from China. But then, I guess I don't have to tell you how the Volstead Act panned out. I have enough mech mods and RDAs to last me at least another 1,760 years. I even own a Purge Mods Executioner complete with the matching 34mm version Head Shot RDA. My point was what's going to happen to the poor guy in the US who builds himself a pipe bomb or who buys one off the street after all mechs become illegal in the US? I mean... after he executes himself by launching his face into space orbit, will there still be a low wattage vaper who chimes in by saying hey, cheer up everyone, he was only ONE guy who died, and that was unfortunate of course, but still not the end of the world because I am a low wattage vaper so these risks don't affect me... here... have a glass of champagne, and let's celebrate the fact I'm still alive. Sweet BELGIUM chocolate son of a father, man!
    :sadpanda:
     
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  34. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    What has happened to the people in Europe for whom 20 mg/ml wasn't enough to successfully fight the urge to smoke since anything stronger became illegal a couple of years ago?

    Bottom line: Governments should stay the hell out of vaping, but they won't.
     
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  35. choderfett

    choderfett Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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  36. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member VU Administrator Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Mod Team Leader Member For 5 Years

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  37. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member VU Administrator Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Mod Team Leader Member For 5 Years

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  38. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member VU Administrator Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Mod Team Leader Member For 5 Years

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  39. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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  40. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
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  41. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I dunno. Maybe they all switched to whining about big clouds because whining about big clouds is just SO much more satisfying than smoking cigs? ;)
    Bottom line: there are enough hypocrites especially among the low wattage vapers too so you can't go around blaming everything on the government alone, and, the simple fact there's STILL this old myth being kept alive by low wattage vapers saying bigger clouds can't produce better flavor is all I really need to downright prove it to you.

    That said, if you are a burning tobacco company the best strategy that works for you is to just mass market the bejeezus out of the type of low powered devices that will drive the vast majority of smokers head first into dual use. That is, the vast majority of smokers who want to finally go ahead and give e-cigs a try. Dual use is not a problem per se, as we all already know it is the ONLY way, for a lot of people─but certainly not to everyone. But there also are one heck of a lot of people out there who will toss these kinds of low powered devices in the drawer after 3 days thinking "vaping is not for me, I know this because I've tried it". It is extremely very easy to convince smokers (and to convince dual users) not to try a higher powered device before jumping to that ridiculous conclusion, which, despite it being ridiculous, gets pushed by some low wattage vapers a lot more often than low wattage vapers commonly are willing to admit. So hypocrisy goes a terrible long way, I'm afraid.
     
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  42. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Low wattage vaping is the one respiratory health risk. That is, if abused slyly in order to propel the quick assertion that it is the absolute single best way to find out whether a random person who smokes can become truly successful at making the definitive, final full switch to vaping.
     
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  43. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    How low is low wattage? I’m only vaping at @45w more or less. It did help me a lot to quit when I got a decent 80w VW mod, though.
    I vape 35mg nic salts at @20w. But it’s not my main juice at all. I use 3-6mg in my daily drivers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
  44. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    If the wattage that you systemically recommend to those wanting to come off cigs really is similar to the wattage you vape, you're on low wattage. That's simply because EVERY high wattage vaper knows that it varies from person to person so wildly that those kinds of recommendations make absolute zero sense excepting only if you are a small shill for Big Tobacco and/or Big Pharma and/or are working for the FDA.
     
  45. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    I know that when I was at ECF, there were a lot of people in the “toodle puffing” crew, who were vaping at 10-20w. Not because of high nic juice; they thought it was stealthy or whatever. They liked it a LOT.
    The tanks, coils and liquids I use now feel the best for me at under 50w. But I could dial it up depending on coils/juice. I’m getting a warm dense vape, though. And I’m not smoking, so that’s great for me. Would I advise anyone to duplicate that mindlessly? Not on a dare.



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  46. AndriaD

    AndriaD Will Summer EVER be over?? VU Donator Diamond Contributor ECF Refugee Member For 5 Years

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    That's how I vape, 10w, just under 2 ohms. Because that's the only way I CAN vape; my asthma won't tolerate much heat, nor very much vapor either. Currently I do have it set at 10.2w, because I was busy doing stuff today, and I like being able to take a slightly shorter hit when I'm busy (4 seconds instead of 6-7 seconds), and sometimes I even go as high as 10.5w... but after I've been vaping at 10.5w for a few hours, I start getting a bad urge to cough with every hit, so I have to turn it back to 10w to make that stop. Also, my foremost requirement is a VERY VERY VERY tight draw, like a cigarette's, well actually, like those Virginia Slims 120 coffin nails I smoked for donkey's years... and that kind of super-tight draw is only possible with very low wattage, or it burns the wick. I'm also a HUMONGOUS tightwad, and I just love being able to vape all day long and only vape about 5ml per day.

    However I got over any consideration of my way of vaping being "the only way to vape," nor the "correct" way to vape, except for ME. Obviously I have some unique requirements, and it works splendidly for me, and I was fortunate enough to luck into the Achilles in 2015 when they were still available... but the way I vape would suit VERY few people. I was persistent enough to MAKE a way that I can continue vaping while suffering a VERY minor impact on my asthma, and that's a blessing that I'm very grateful for. And that's really the BEST thing about vaping -- it can be customized in every detail, for the needs and desires of every individual who takes it up, which is WHY it's the best and most effective cessation method ever devised.

    Andria
     
  47. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Like I already said previously, nothing's wrong with being a tootle puffer. But if the 'stealthy' part also implies that some certain tootle puffing person is actually trying to downplay the severity of the upcoming ban on high powered devices whilst at the same time also is trying to wean newcomes off high wattage (i.e. by making false claims from the likes of "it's nothing more than just wasting extra battery power and juice so not worth it", and presenting them as facts), then TBH that's when all the alarm bells should start sounding off. If you haven't already seen THOSE kinds of hypocrites rallying up, then you haven't been to ECF. Here on the VU, that never happens AFAIK. Or at least they don't arrive in bunches rallying up. Compared to the VU, ECF looks like one giant tootle puffing establishment. There, I said it. :cheers:
     
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  48. AndriaD

    AndriaD Will Summer EVER be over?? VU Donator Diamond Contributor ECF Refugee Member For 5 Years

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    Yes, I think you're right. Although I did have to face down a few "cloud chasers" over there who are convinced that vaping any other way isn't really vaping at all, I definitely found a much larger group of "vaping peers" there, than I've found here -- I was one of the first members of that "tootle puffers" thread over there, but here, most folks just don't seem to be too arsed about one's style of vaping. Though I've faced more "do you even vape?" here, than I did there, most VUers seem perfectly calm about other peoples' vaping styles. Maybe it's just that VUers are more sane in general. ;) "Fascist kindergarten teachers" aren't something that most normal sane folks will tolerate, yet they get away with it at ECF.

    But this kind of mentality, the "the way I do it is correct and everyone else is WRONG," is all too common in far too many places. Over at Quora, I just responded to someone a day or two ago who is convinced that because he doesn't use flavors, no one else needs them either. I gave him pretty short shrift about that!

    Andria
     
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  49. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    You have asthma, Andria. So it makes sense for you. But like, your son is going for higher wattage etc and you’re not judging him. Or telling him to vape unflavored at 10-20w, like the ECF Tootle crew do.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  50. AndriaD

    AndriaD Will Summer EVER be over?? VU Donator Diamond Contributor ECF Refugee Member For 5 Years

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    Nah, I laugh at him if he gets such a lungful of vapor that it chokes him up. :teehee: Or if I blow one of my little "wisps" at him and he then INUNDATES me with vapor while hollering CLOUDZ BRO! :giggle: I'm just glad he finally laid off those damned clove cigars. Burnt tobacco stinks and the smell of a dentist's office on top of it doesn't improve it one iota! But my biggest relief is that getting back to vape-only instead of dual-use has pretty much eliminated his bronchitis cough. He vapes a LOT more flavors than I do; he's got about 20 store-bought bottles that he got when the local shop he prefers had a close-out sale on a whole bunch of brands, scoring about 20 30ml bottles for like $15. He also knows how to make my strawberry & cream recipe, though he prefers it in a much earlier iteration when it was about 27% flavoring -- I'm down to about 21.5% now.

    They must have gotten a lot more extreme with their tootling since I left there in 2016. They used to be a pretty laid back bunch, but hey, all the cool people left there and came here. ;)

    Andria
     
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