ECF (its owners) warns on Sub-Ohming and MODs, says likely causes Cancer, Toxins, Explosions, Fires

[tombaker]

On a Google search I came upon a topic on the ECF thread, at the top is a Mandatory warning that anyone who searches, and clicks and sees a thread on ECF, a ominous heath warning about Sub-Ohming.
Every thread, every individual page, has this warning of dangers and toxins, at the top, in a Huge Yellow box, titled Sub-Ohm Advisory - Risk Elevation Factors.

Example of every page in the Category
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/

The actual Sub-Ohm Risk Elevation Advisory here.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html

I will post the entire text in the 2nd post of this thread, and talk about topic inside it here.

First the minor stuff.
1. ECF states that it would be serious risk to use MODs in gas stations, and on a Foam Couch. Both are nuts, unless you actually cracked the coils right in front of your gas cap. All modern filling stations have vapor recovery system on the hose. While it best to use your Vape at the Gas Station in the car, pointing at this as "significant danger" is wrong, though the least wrong of the set.
2. His points on stacked batteries is also not so bad, but as I best understand it the way to remove risk for stacked is to have a matched pair, and keep them equally charged at the start, because a variance in the two cells charge can labor one cell more. (But this is all a debate)
3. Diacetyl e-liquid should always be avoided, its not unique to Sub-Ohming. He states incorrectly that 70% of vendors claiming to have Diacetyl free products have them. That number is not what the study says, it a sub group of the 74% have Diacetyl, were vendors claiming it to be free of Diaceyl, NOT the entire group. Wrong is wrong, and Diacetyl should never be in any E-Liquid is true.

Now the Major Problems:
1. He says that Super Heating of E-Liquids takes place in Sub-Ohms and will create toxic Materials.

This does not have support, and it ignores air flow. If you have a hotter coils, but the E-Liquid is passing by it much faster, the heating to the liquid is proportional. The best indicator of how much the liquid is being heated is a burnt taste. If you are burning it much much hotter, you will taste it.​

2. He uses as a Risk evaluation, the "burning up refills" as an example.

I took that first as the burning of Carts, the burning of the Polyfill, which of course is not a fair comparison. The other way to read it is, burning and tasting the burned E-Liquid, which would of course always be avoided, as the user.
But he continues with "It is likely that materials such as acrolein and aldehydes will be seen in measurable quantities, and some pyrolytic compounds may even be created." I have no idea the basis of these claims, or of his total confidence of it, as it relates to Sub-Ohming vs all vaping. Its just his theory, and it put out to everyone as a firm warning, stating it so firmly, it should be read as fact.​

3. He continues saying that Sub-Ohm vapor has risk, because its Vapor is different.

Again going back to air flow, I would say its more likely, that Sub-Ohming is more Vapor, BUT, the same basic vapor. Not some sort of super hazardous vape....just more volume of.​

4. He continues asserting again that Sub-Ohm is not the same Vapor, and then proclaims it becomes a Vape with Carcinogens, which he explains, cause cancer, and the heat of the coil creates the carcinogens.

This is a wild claim. This is the first I have seen this ANYWHERE in the Vaping world, but ECF puts it out at the top of every thread. When you Sub-Ohm, the E-Liquid becomes Cancer causing.

Really this is the first, this is the first time I have ever heard some say that Vaping is either a known or most like, cancer causing activity. This is a major statement, in a very public warning. And its some the Cancer comes from the heating of the E-Liquid.----> I would not have bothered to write any of this if not for this hugely radical statement by ECF http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com

ECF is saying that Sub-Ohming is in all likelihood a Cancer Causing practice.
And ECF makes it clear by saying "there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms."
​

Rolygate and ECF have made the call, so there it is, you all have been warned, and he uses Dr. Farsalinos to give it more credibility.

My Car Analogy, because everything is a Car Analogy: If I have a huge Holly 4 barrel carb on top of my Motor, and those venturi are sucking in a ton of Gasoline, according to ECF, the actual explosion inside each clynder is materially changed, and Cancer now comes out. Now you can same their will be more unburned fuel coming out of the tailpipe, with that big Barrel carb. But Vaping is more akin to an ECU driving bigger jetted injectors, with a knock sensor automatically triming the mix ratio with the Mass Air Flow sensor doing the feedback. So more airflow, drawing through better wicking, against a hotter coil, expose the E-Juice to the heating element for less time, creating the same substance in the draw.....just a ton of it.

But ECF has done the CYA, they told you all, not to use those Sub-Ohm Cancer Sticks

 

[tombaker]

The Text of the Sub-Ohm Public Advisory, on ECF
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html
================
ECF Sub-Ohm Advisory
Sub-ohm vaping has not caused any serious incidents that we are aware of, therefore we cannot describe this activity as risky. There are a couple of areas of concern that some members may wish to take note of.


1. Batteries
Modern batteries are extremely safe compared to those we used to have. If a genuine IMR or hybrid rechargeable cell is destroyed by sub-ohming or some kind of fault, then what appears to happen is that it melts down without any significant out-gassing. The gas generation is the danger factor as it can lead to an explosion, if it takes place in a sealed device. A hot APV does not appear to be a significant danger except in some sort of fire-risk situation (maybe in a gas station, or on an old foam couch/sofa).

What is certainly an issue, though, is if a counterfeit battery is used by mistake; or if someone deliberately uses an ICR (regular Li-ion) cell instead of the modern type of safer-chemistry cell. In that case there could be a significant outgas risk in the event of a battery failure, which translates to risk for an explosive event.

- Please make sure to use genuine IMR or hybrid cells from a reputable source, and DO NOT USE regular Li-ion cells (ICR) for heavy-duty applications like this.
- The use of a sealed metal tube for a high-power application using lithium ion cells in front of the face is an intrinsically bad idea. Gas vents are a good idea, and the bigger the better - in case the wrong battery is used. This applies even more if batteries are stacked (placed in series) as the risk is multiplied up (the only explosive events known have all taken place in metal tube mechmods with stacked cells) [1].


2. Inhalation issues

It is likely that the super-heating of e-liquids that takes place in an RBA run at less than 1 ohm will create some toxic materials.

This is just plain logic and should not be seen as anything radically new: burning up refills creates some nasties and there is no way around that. It is likely that materials such as acrolein and aldehydes will be seen in measurable quantities, and some pyrolytic compounds may even be created.

Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms.

Buttery flavors
We have to add a specific note on butter/creamy flavors here. Diacetyl or a similar substitute is present in some flavors, and it is likely that many of this flavor group have exactly the same issues as diacetyl, since they are all fairly similar molecules. Because of the sheer volume of liquid consumed and the volume of vapor created by sub-ohming, all issues related to refill liquid safety are magnified. Previously it was considered that consumption of 10ml of refill liquid per day was high; now there are rumors that some sub-ohmers may even consume 20ml a day.

Until more information is available, our advice is that all butter/cream type flavors are avoided for sub-ohm use (inhalation of the butter-popcorn-custard flavoring diacetyl can cause the irreversible degenerative lung disease bronchiolitis obliterans, aka 'popcorn lung').

This warning is not pure speculation:

• A research study has already indicated that the vapor created by high-power vaping contains more potentially toxic compounds
• Dr Farsalinos' recent study reports that a very high percentage of cream-type flavors contain diacetyl even when the vendor claims there is none present
• He states that 7 out of 10 vendors who claim there is no diacetyl in their products are not correct.

-------------------
[1] Stacked cells

If you want to risk using stacked cells in a metal tube in front of your face (which is a really bad idea in the first place) then you must be absolutely sure they are not counterfeits and/or that you have very large gas vents. In the days before VV and RBAs, this was much more common - and there were some appalling facial injuries from explosions as a result. BE WARNED.

We very much hoped that we had seen the last of that practice as VV devices can generate any voltage and have electronic fusing, and RBAs allow a massive vape to be generated off a single high-quality battery by going low-res; but there have been some references lately to using stacked cells with an RBA. People can do what they like, but they should at least be aware that when this was done in the past, vapers ended up in the ER. Batteries are far safer now - but that assumes you have genuine batteries...

Our advice would be that if you truly need a monster vape, then use a single 30 amp 18650 of super high quality, or a 26650, and a low-res coil on the RBA. Anything is better than stacking batts and driving them hard in front of and partly inside your face in a sealed metal tube. We have seen the results of that and it was disastrous.

 

[Smoky Blue]

I have a friend that wants to know.. are e cigs toxic? and why is it that he can not vape in city areas?
I did some searching for him and found this gem..

Manufacturers claim that electronic cigarettes are a safe alternative to conventional cigarettes. However, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has questioned the safety of these products. When the FDA analyzed samples of two popular brands, they found variable amounts of nicotine and traces of toxic chemicals, including known cancer-causing substances (carcinogens). This prompted the FDA to issue a warning about potential health risks associated with electronic cigarettes.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...rt-answers/electronic-cigarettes/faq-20057776

go figure.. and no trace of this so called fda study..

 

[Tripster]

 

[jae]

I think the issue here with sub-ohming is the burning metal in the hotter coil.

 

[Smoky Blue]

somehow i can't find my other bit, they had also included our tanks..

i do agree, i saw where they said burning metal at high temps and the chems in ejuice reacting..

 

[tombaker]

I think the issue here with sub-ohming is the burning metal in the hotter coil.

I am fairly certain the metal is not burning, as burn has a definition, usually known as a combustible, associated with Analog Cigs.
The coil is being heated, and heating the e-Liquid, and the Kanthal has a much higher melting point that the MOD is hitting it with.
If the airflow passes the liquid quicker across the coil, its not like the E-Liquid is being super heated, which you would taste.

I can smell Milk and tell when its bad. I should be able to taste the juice, and know its not being cooked off on a much higher heat than normal.

ECF is saying that Sub Ohming changes the Vape so much, the output is Cancerous.

 

[Chris]

.

 

[tombaker]

I have a friend that wants to know.. are e cigs toxic? and why is it that he can not vape in city areas?
I did some searching for him and found this gem..
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...rt-answers/electronic-cigarettes/faq-20057776
go figure.. and no trace of this so called fda study..

Study is in the footnotes http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm173222.htm
Here is the actual document http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/scienceresearch/ucm173250.pdf
Not real a study by a very small sample and test. Notice that the several of the non-nicotine products detected nothing as a problem, passed with flying colors. Which means if done right, the only consequences are from the nicotine additive.
At the levels that they are able to test for, which with todays sensors is incredible, it is quite possible that the levels are so tiny they are nothing to be concerned about..... Reference Saccharin Pink Packet scare.

 

[Hermit]

See also this thread on ECF: An issue with the Sub-Ohm Advisory

This is what I said there:

I wonder, perhaps instead of a sub-ohm warning it should be a make your own coil at your own peril warning? Harder to make the point, I suppose. I appreciate that for a site such as this, used as much as it is, erring on the side of caution is the best course. Should someone learn enough to disregard such warnings, they have learnt enough!

The way I see it, a sub-ohm coil will normally have more mass to heat up, so it needn't get any hotter. It's the extra surface area a vaper wants, to get more vapour production. Take a Mundy's Magic twist as an example - 9 strands in parallel will give low ohms, but also lots of wire to heat up.

What did the study actually test? If they simply put more and more watts through the same coil(s), it wouldn't surprise me to see more nasties produced. That would be a flaw in the test, if that was the case. Otherwise, if they changed the coil up appropriately, it's an interesting result.​

and then, after delving further into what (presumably) prompted the warning to appear:

The advisory mentions a study, at the end - "A research study has already indicated that the vapor created by high-power vaping contains more potentially toxic compounds".

Likely the one being reported on in this article: Some E-Cigarettes Deliver a Puff of Carcinogens.

Dr F's comments: Formaldehyde release in ecigarette vapor - The New York Times story explained in detail.

AFAICT it doesn't mention sub-ohming specifically, only higher wattages. There's some FUD about dripping in the article, but nothing specific, which suggests that the study either didn't actually test any drippers or didn't find anything media-panic-worthy. Even if they had, we'd have to know exactly what setup they were using for it to be relevant information.​

So yeah, it seems the study was doomed to give poor results by its poor methodology, unrepresentative of real-world vaping.

Quote from the NYTimes article that makes me think that:

The Roswell research found, generally, that when battery voltage increased to 4.8 volts from 3.2 volts, toxin levels increased markedly.

Well, yeah, it would. Now try again with 50% more wire!

 

[tombaker]

An issue with the Sub-Ohm Advisory

Likely the one being reported on in this article: Some E-Cigarettes Deliver a Puff of Carcinogens.

Dr F's comments: Formaldehyde release in ecigarette vapor - The New York Times story explained in detail.

AFAICT it doesn't mention sub-ohming specifically, only higher wattages. There's some FUD about dripping in the article, but nothing specific, which suggests that the study either didn't actually test any drippers or didn't find anything media-panic-worthy. Even if they had, we'd have to know exactly what setup they were using for it to be relevant information.​

So yeah, it seems the study was doomed to give poor results by its poor methodology, unrepresentative of real-world vaping.

I think you must be correct on the article in the NY Times spawning it....because the "warning" is 8 days after it was published

 

[moecat]

This ECF thing comes off as a bit of legal self-preservation in my opinion.

 

[Whiskey]

Thank you for this Tom, with your permission I have shared this with 2 other forums.

 

[Artisan Vaping]

Wow, the ECF putting themselves in the same camp as the ATNZ. Who'da thunk it.

Here's my take on sub ohming: Aside from the safety issues (which I have addressed before), the only real danger from sub-ohming is if you dry your wick out. You see, the E-liquid doesn't really get any hotter (it stays at the boiling point of the PG or whatever is in it), there is just more heat energy applied to it. The analogy is putting a pot on a stove: Whether you put a big pot with lots of water on an element turned on Maximum, or a small pot with very little water, the temp of the steam is the same until the water evaporates. At that point, yes, it will get hotter.

So the main non-safety danger of sub-ohming is the increased risk of dry hits.

 

[UncleRJ]

Gotta be at least one lawyer involved with this.

Possibly the owners of ECF are pulling in some serious bucks (something that they and others have accused VJ of and deem it wrong for him to get some mod money out of running this forum and his deal alert) and need an attorney to write all of this crap so they don't get sued when some idiot decides to build a sub ohm coil out of depleted uranium wire in a home built RBA made out of an old tin can powered by wiring it directly into the main breaker panel of their house.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Not to mention.. why is the NY times involved and that is a crappy study..

 

[Myk]

ECF is in the UK. Liability laws there are different.

There was a recent study that said RDA's and high heat create formaldehyde, a carcinogen. That is the reason for the new warning.

If you haven't noticed ECF has always taken a Chicken Little approach to issuing warnings about everything from batteries to DIY anything. The bad thing is people think it's expert advice rather than CYA from lawsuit BS. The real bad thing about it is some of the warnings are outdated.

 

[Smoky Blue]

curious too.. why is the Mayo Clinic posting this too?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...rt-answers/electronic-cigarettes/faq-20057776

shouldn't they be more than willing to do trial studies etc?

 

[Myk]

curious too.. why is the Mayo Clinic posting this too?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...rt-answers/electronic-cigarettes/faq-20057776

shouldn't they be more than willing to do trial studies etc?

Mayo is so ANTZ I've seen "Ask The Dr" stories where someone like me, who quit smoking to get diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis, asked if they should try nicotine (the answer is yes if no heart problems) and all Mayo had to say was to lecture them about smoking.
I've got an IBD book written by a Mayo Dr and she does mention the tie in but she always comes back to telling patients to quit smoking completely. Never mentions trying nicotine.
When Mayo is willing to kill people rather than have them find out nicotine has some benefits I wouldn't expect them to ever want an honest study on ecigs, let alone run one.

 

[Smoky Blue]

It is a damn shame.. the medical community does not step up..

i guess some body is paying every body rather well

 

[havok333]

It is a damn shame.. the medical community does not step up..

i guess some body is paying every body rather well

The money trail will typically lead to the root problem.

 

[UncleRJ]

Why is opinion of the "Medical Community" differ from the opinions of my own doctors?

They are very pleased that I vape and no longer smoke/

 

[Rapture]

Well damn my paranoid ass stumbled into a thread to get my ass paranoid.

 

[Spike64]

Why is opinion of the "Medical Community" differ from the opinions of my own doctors?

They are very pleased that I vape and no longer smoke/

Agree....my doctor thinks its great that I gave up my 33 yr, 2 pack a day addiction to analogs and now vape...I work in a hospital that's part of a large health system and the consensus there is that smoking is bad and vaping is good...in fact, we are allowed to vape inside at work...

 

[Tripster]

I've had so far 2 Directors for Hospitals tell me that they're appreciative of my Vaping choice...these are the Head Honchos at that too plus they would always let me vape in the hospital/s and especially when I was in the ER or whatever.

 

[GargoyleK1]

Why is opinion of the "Medical Community" differ from the opinions of my own doctors?

They are very pleased that I vape and no longer smoke/

Exactly… I believe this is largely being pushed by the media so they have a "breaking story" or some sort of other non sense. My Doctors thinks it is great and even said that they have had meetings/discussions/conferences over it and decided it was a good way to go for those that have a hard time quiting cigarettes.

 

[havok333]

It is refreshing to hear that some in the health care sector are not buying into the faulty reports that get spread about in the media, and from ignorant self serving politicians. I would like to think medical professions could easily see through to the truth that vaping is a much better alternative to smoking and has a much better chance of helping smokers quit cigs for good.

 

[Rapture]

It is refreshing to hear but what about the people like me who vape at high wattage. I vape around a .35 ohm dual coil at around 5 volts. But it really isnt that hot with the airflow. At 120 watts is when it starts to get quite hot.

 

[havok333]

It is refreshing to hear but what about the people like me who vape at high wattage. I vape around a .35 ohm dual coil at around 5 volts. But it really isnt that hot with the airflow. At 120 watts is when it starts to get quite hot.

I vape pretty much the same these days. Maybe 2 second hits or so, with plenty of airflow, and don't let the wick dry out.

 

[Rapture]

I don't let the wick dry out and if it does it tastes very bad and is very hot. I think that's where the issue lies. Acrolein or not still vaping is subtracting over 50 known carcinogens.

 

[Myk]

It is refreshing to hear but what about the people like me who vape at high wattage. I vape around a .35 ohm dual coil at around 5 volts. But it really isnt that hot with the airflow. At 120 watts is when it starts to get quite hot.

As far as I know RDA's produce formaldehyde whether or not you burn the liquid with a "dry hit". They start off good but then go bad.
I get this from a pro-ecig group's testimony before some state's legislature. It was based on early testing.

If that holds true I would say it's a result of having the coil in the "tank" and that burns off all the good stuff eventually leaving what turns into formaldehyde increasing the amount per puff to a measurable amount.
You probably get the same thing in a regular tank system but the per puff amount in inconsequential because the liquid feeding the wick is never changed with heat except to produce vapor.

 

[Whiskey]

As far as I know RDA's produce formaldehyde whether or not you burn the liquid with a "dry hit". They start off good but then go bad.
I get this from a pro-ecig group's testimony before some state's legislature. It was based on early testing.

If that holds true I would say it's a result of having the coil in the "tank" and that burns off all the good stuff eventually leaving what turns into formaldehyde increasing the amount per puff to a measurable amount.
You probably get the same thing in a regular tank system but the per puff amount in inconsequential because the liquid feeding the wick is never changed with heat except to produce vapor.

Do you have a link where you read that?

 

[wllmc]

lol soon as I start enjoying sub ohms, FUCK ECF ha. I dont think my coils get much hotter. like havok I do like a 2 or 3 second pull on dual parallel coils VS 20 seconds of chain vaping on a kayfun. they heat up faster and cover more area with a lot more air flow. next thing ECF will say vaping is bad for you unless you do it their way from vendors they say are "safe" only because said vendor paid them lots of money

 

[Myk]

Do you have a link where you read that?

Nope, I heard it during a stream of the testimony. I don't even remember what state it was.
I'll look around for the group, it's one of those I'll remember when I see it but not before

 

[Roger Schaeffer]

I have a friend that wants to know.. are e cigs toxic? and why is it that he can not vape in city areas?
I did some searching for him and found this gem..





http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...rt-answers/electronic-cigarettes/faq-20057776

go figure.. and no trace of this so called fda study..

Look Like Mayo Clinic is listening to their lawyers advise always CYA. Mayo was recently chosen as Best Hospital in US in 1 ranking. They are still probably afraid of being sued-frivolous or not- as anybody else. Or they just could be somewhat ANTZ.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Look Like Mayo Clinic is listening to their lawyers advise always CYA. Mayo was recently chosen as Best Hospital in US in 1 ranking. They are still probably afraid of being sued-frivolous or not- as anybody else. Or they just could be somewhat ANTZ.

I thought the Mayo Clinic helps to find cures, and research.. CYA just ruined them for me..

 

[Myk]

Do you have a link where you read that?

I thought it was an ACSH guy, it's not, but it's a guy who seems very open to ecigs and he gives a balanced report of the studies. He starts around 3:10.
Here is where he brings up dripping,
Although he's saying it's from overheating. I guess I'm odd, I get way more than 3 puffs off a dripper.

OK, the forum won't allow to link to a specific time in a video. He mentions dripping at 3h38m58s

This is pissing me off,

 

[Smoky Blue]

I thought it was an ACSH guy, it's not, but it's a guy who seems very open to ecigs and he gives a balanced report of the studies. He starts around 3:10.
Here is where he brings up dripping,

Although he's saying it's from overheating. I guess I'm odd, I get way more than 3 puffs off a dripper.

you aren't odd.. I average at least 15-30 min with my dripper.. depends on how you have it built..

 

[Nu2Mods]

"The vapors from an ecigarette contains Formaldehyde; this chemical is toxic as well as being listed as a carcinogen." Now....read this statement again. You see the information before you. Now I ask this...just how much formaldehyde is in the vapor??? THIS is what big pharma and tobacco lobbyist DON'T want you to ask. They want you to think tons and tons of formaldehyde being absorbed into your lungs causing immediate sprouting of cancer cells like popcorn in hot oil. They DON'T want you to go and read the reports for yourself. They don't want an educated population disputing their statements. The statement above is a misleading TRUE statement...there IS formaldehyde in ecig vapors, BUT the AMOUNT is so small that it is BARELY DETECTABLE in the lab results, thus the lab's labeling of the quantity as "negligible". The statement is true but all of the information is NOT there for people to make an educated judgement. They want you to make a knee-jerk reaction. NOW...get out on the net and FIND the lab studies and toxicology reports. Learn what an LD50 and a PPM is. Learn what acute and chronic exposures and 8 hour time weighted averages are (TWA). Learn these, then ASK these people putting out this information, "Where is the report?". Find it, read it then put things in their proper perspective. If people that had the same public exposures as these statement-spewing idiots would get educated, these fires would be put out so quickly that there would not be enough time to excite everyone into a circle-jerk over what they call a dragon when it's really a bunny! BUT...I know...the media and what they want to publish...durn. <rant off>

 

[havok333]

Nope, I heard it during a stream of the testimony. I don't even remember what state it was.
I'll look around for the group, it's one of those I'll remember when I see it but not before

I'd appreciate the info too. Then the details of the research/testing they based the testimony on.

Based on what you recalled above, it sounds like the extra drops in an RDA's well are heating up and chemically transforming into formaldehyde?

I'm no chemist but would think a great deal of factors would come into play with this testing. Various wick media, RDA and resistance wire composition, juice ingredients, heat, airflow, etc. The devil would certainly be in the details here.

If there's a magic combination that gives formaldehyde, I'd like to know what it is. But I hate to see vapers spooked by bad information that perhaps is only theoretical or hasn't been properly tested.

And of course you'd have to consider the "pro ecig group" too. I hate to say it, but you have to consider the source of funding and any possible agenda. BG, BP, and/or BT have plenty of money and a wealth of incentive to squash vaping any way they can.

Not beating up on you at all Myk, and glad you brought this up. Just want to dig into the details of what you heard a bit better if possible.

/rant.

 

[Hermit]

The real question, that I don't think any of these studies have addressed properly, is:

Would an experienced vaper notice something 'bad' before significant quantities of nasties get produced and consumed?

By 'bad' I mean either an off-taste, or a reduction in vapour production. Something a contraption like this wouldn't notice...

Let's say there's a phase, as an RDA dries out, where it's still producing usable amounts of decent testing vapour, but with increased formaldehyde levels. And let's say a typical vaper might take a few draws with it like that, before topping it up. Even if the levels are high for those few draws, that might well only represent a very small percentage of overall draws, and hence still a markedly reduced ingestion of formaldehyde compared to cigarettes.

The complete picture (including the human's self-regulation) needs to be looked at, and even when a study does that, the media will still just cherry pick the most panic-headline-worthy factoid

 

[Rapture]

@Nu2Mods I like that rant

 

[Myk]

I'd appreciate the info too. Then the details of the research/testing they based the testimony on.

Based on what you recalled above, it sounds like the extra drops in an RDA's well are heating up and chemically transforming into formaldehyde?

I'm no chemist but would think a great deal of factors would come into play with this testing. Various wick media, RDA and resistance wire composition, juice ingredients, heat, airflow, etc. The devil would certainly be in the details here.

If there's a magic combination that gives formaldehyde, I'd like to know what it is. But I hate to see vapers spooked by bad information that perhaps is only theoretical or hasn't been properly tested.

And of course you'd have to consider the "pro ecig group" too. I hate to say it, but you have to consider the source of funding and any possible agenda. BG, BP, and/or BT have plenty of money and a wealth of incentive to squash vaping any way they can.

Not beating up on you at all Myk, and glad you brought this up. Just want to dig into the details of what you heard a bit better if possible.

/rant.

I don't think it's bad information as much as coming inside to watch the weather on the news.
We all know that dry hits are bad.
It sounds like they're also unhealthy.
We don't really know at what point they become bad (how long before we "Ack, cough cough"). Sadly we probably won't because too many of those studying are clueless about ecigs and they don't set up realistic tests.

 

[havok333]

Sadly we probably won't because too many of those studying are clueless about ecigs and they don't set up realistic tests.

Yeah, have to agree 100%

 

[tombaker]

Nope, I heard it during a stream of the testimony. I don't even remember what state it was.
I'll look around for the group, it's one of those I'll remember when I see it but not before

Its a study that was done, commented on in the NYTs and descredited by Dr. F......If you bothered to read the OP you would have a clue. Or you can read what was posted by Hermit in post 10. I know you are no fan of me, but dude, try reading.

 

[MrFixIt]

Okay here we are vapping has started to become mainstream and the Big tobacco lobby, Big pharmaceutical lobby, and every state and federal sin tax coffer in the world are now feeling the effects of millions of ex smokers no longer funding their pork projects and unjustifiable pay raises. The so called studies should be done with actual vappers cause to be honest we all Vape differently. The vapor being tested should collected from what I'm exhaling not machine they set up. Now this sub ohm thing another name that doesn't truly fit but that's besides the point. When I drip on a set up that's below 1ohm I take mouth to lung hits and at least 40sec -1minute between my toots, tokes, draws ect... I enjoy dripping and taking my time vapping to enjoy the flavor of my liquids. I'm just about done with my old friend nic.


Now all this hub bub about this chemical being created or that one being created when stuff reaches a certain temperature is pure speculation till proven by a repeatable testing procedure that as of yet has not happened. I don't know about the rest of you but I was not under the illusion that switching to vapping was 100% safe but after a few months I was and my doctor was convinced that it was way safer than smoking period. We all know the story improved lung function and sense of smell and taste returning less sickness in general. No noticable side effects after 2yrs of continuous vapping. We definitely know for a fact that if we continued to smoke traditional tobacco as offered by big tobacco that we faced a multitude of nasty death dealing diseases. Hell folks the fda approved of them using carpet glue to create the much touted fire proof bands knowing it was toxic especially when heated or burned. Their take was well you smokers are already getting so many chemicals that the risk of one more is not enough for us to say no to it. These are the fools that are supposed to protect us from bad drugs and food products how can they when they receive part of their funding from the very corporations they are supposed to regulate! Look at their track record it speaks for itself. It's all about the money our health and well being of the are you ready for it THE CHILDREN! mean absolutely nothing to these people. Breathe, breathe in with the good vapor relax. Okay back to how we Vape.


See I believe it's going to be up to us the vapping community to do our own testing it can't be that hard can it? I mean we organize Vape meets and cons and bashes why not this. Who better than us really we are already some of us into 5+ years of vapping I'm sure those numbers are enough to get a good overview of all the health effects good and bad and unlike the medical establishment which I don't trust well maybe a little bit more than the fda I do we don't have all these restrictions of animal testing for years before human trials ect... We could put forth solid evidence to the world about what exactly this vapping thing is about and what it's effects are on all of us. I'm sure we have some medical folks in our ranks who could make sure we do it right. To sum it up I don't feel my style of vapping is producing any serious amount of bad chemicals for me or anyone around me but I would like to find out and the right way this time not 40yrs from now after tons of junk science studies have flooded the web and the public has been thoroughly scared or brainwashed into thinking what the money changers want them to. Am I crazy to think of this or is it possible for us to do? I believe if we can this action will speak way louder than any words. What do you all think?

 

[tombaker]

The so called studies should be done with actual vappers cause to be honest we all Vape differently. The vapor being tested should collected from what I'm exhaling not machine they set up.

Vapingreek crowd funded a study on Dicetyl in E-Liquid recently, and he mentioned recently about some sort of Nicotine council or something by a name, that was going to fund research studies, with Vapers funding, but without control of the results.
I don't think you can only measure the exhale, because you have to start with what is in it, then figure out how much comes out after its Vaped into a mouth or lung.

I also believe it to be safe, not just safer. There are some things to do to make it so. Don't use Polycarbonate tanks because release BPA. Don't use Rayon until someone can proves that enough of the very toxic material are removed in the final product. There is no question that Rayon manufacturing uses very nasty chemicals, it manufacturing is banned in some countries. Don't use Diacetyl in any juice. Organizations like AMESA make sure all their vendors don't use it, and many other high quality vendors do the checking also.

Sub-Ohm vape is no different than normal vape, as said in this thread above, but you definately get more volume, quicker of that vape.

 

[Rapture]

Reading you peoples comments makes me feel better. I'm a very paranoid person these days when it comes to health and especially vaping.

I find it weird that I still vape even after these claims from ECF and me being a paranoid person but I have no symptoms, don't cough, and feel overall better after quitting smoking. I've thought about quitting vaping many times due to the "unknown" but never have I thought about returning to smokes.

 

[VaporJoe]

HOT TOPIC AWARDED!

 

[VaporJoe]

Reading you peoples comments makes me feel better. I'm a very paranoid person these days when it comes to health and especially vaping.

I find it weird that I still vape even after these claims from ECF and me being a paranoid person but I have no symptoms, don't cough, and feel overall better after quitting smoking. I've thought about quitting vaping many times due to the "unknown" but never have I thought about returning to smokes.

People over at ECF live in their own bubble and are very out of touch with the vaping community. Its still 2010 for them over there.