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Fewer people are smoking cigarettes, so state tax revenue is down. Now, Wisconsin will tax e-cigs.

Rossum

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Are the states that are doing this now not aware that the countdown has started? Due to Judge Grimm's latest ruling, we now have a bit less than 10 months until the PMTA deadline. Then there's the absurd restricted flow requirement imposed by the CPSC that's directly at odds with the FDA's rules that don't allow any changes, not even packaging, without a PMTA right now. I wouldn't count on much revenue from this tax because these two things are likely to make the market for juice so informal that collecting and remitting a tax will be the least of anyone's worries.
 

SteveS45

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It’s like they’re following the lost tax revenue over to juice sales. Probably the wave of the future, unfortunately.


Are the states that are doing this now not aware that the countdown has started?


Yeah what are they going to do if this Judge, in what Maryland, decided to make a ruling affecting the entire country? I have a feeling his ruling with be thrown out since it is over stepping boundaries and conflicts with too many things. Sort of wait and see what happens now?
 

The Cromwell

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Are the states that are doing this now not aware that the countdown has started? Due to Judge Grimm's latest ruling, we now have a bit less than 10 months until the PMTA deadline. Then there's the absurd restricted flow requirement imposed by the CPSC that's directly at odds with the FDA's rules that don't allow any changes, not even packaging, without a PMTA right now. I wouldn't count on much revenue from this tax because these two things are likely to make the market for juice so informal that collecting and remitting a tax will be the least of anyone's worries.
Yep next year and the tax angle will be interesting.
A new thought. A lot of the juice sold by various juice companys are made in a few 'labs'. The FDA shutting down those labs will kill much of the juice industry.
 

Rhianne

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Are the states that are doing this now not aware that the countdown has started? Due to Judge Grimm's latest ruling, we now have a bit less than 10 months until the PMTA deadline. Then there's the absurd restricted flow requirement imposed by the CPSC that's directly at odds with the FDA's rules that don't allow any changes, not even packaging, without a PMTA right now. I wouldn't count on much revenue from this tax because these two things are likely to make the market for juice so informal that collecting and remitting a tax will be the least of anyone's worries.

People need to hear this on VU. The Deeming regs thread on ECF is really good, but I haven’t signed in lately there. I’m not hearing anything about it here except on this thread, though. yep, optimistic :)


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Rossum

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Yeah what are they going to do if this Judge, in what Maryland, decided to make a ruling affecting the entire country? I have a feeling his ruling with be thrown out since it is over stepping boundaries and conflicts with too many things. Sort of wait and see what happens now?
It was a Federal Judge in a Federal Court. The American Association of Pediatrics sued the FDA. So this ruling does affect the entire country.

Whether it will be thrown out or not depends whether the FDA decides to appeal it. There's a school of legal thought that says they have no legal basis to appeal it, because the judge granted them the compromise they asked for -- 10 months -- instead of the 4 months the AAP asked for.

Any appeal would only shift the date. The original deadline for PMTAs set by Obama's FDA was 8/8/18. Then in 2017 Trump's FDA punted it to 8/8/22. More recently pressure from the ANTZ got them to pull it forward to 8/8/21 for many products (the "flavored" ones). Now a court has ruled that the 2017 punt was illegal, because it didn't go through the Notice or Proposed Rulemaking and Public Comment process. I don't like that, but on a legal/technical basis, I believe the court is correct.

Bottom line: There will be a PMTA deadline, after which any vapor product for which no application has been submitted will be de jure illegal. But a goodly portion of what's currently on the market is already illegal because it didn't exist on the Deeming Regs' "grandfather" date of 8/8/16, yet the FDA has done very little to enforce that. So perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves is: Once the PMTA deadline date arrives (whenever that ends up being), how vigorously will the FDA enforce? This is both a question of motivation and resources.

My guess is the will go after the highest profile targets first. Obviously the single highest profile target is Juul, but I have no doubt that Juul will file PMTA paperwork in time. Next on the list will likely be the biggest juice manufacturers...
 

Rossum

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A new thought. A lot of the juice sold by various juice companys are made in a few 'labs'. The FDA shutting down those labs will kill much of the juice industry.
Yep. The question is, are they big enough to have the resources required to file the extensive sort of PMTA that the FDA wants to see?

'Cause if they don't file, I would guess they will indeed be among the first to get shut down.
 

The Cromwell

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It was a Federal Judge in a Federal Court. The American Association of Pediatrics sued the FDA. So this ruling does affect the entire country.

Whether it will be thrown out or not depends whether the FDA decides to appeal it. There's a school of legal thought that says they have no legal basis to appeal it, because the judge granted them the compromise they asked for -- 10 months -- instead of the 4 months the AAP asked for.

Any appeal would only shift the date. The original deadline for PMTAs set by Obama's FDA was 8/8/18. Then in 2017 Trump's FDA punted it to 8/8/22. More recently pressure from the ANTZ got them to pull it forward to 8/8/21 for many products (the "flavored" ones). Now a court has ruled that the 2017 punt was illegal, because it didn't go through the Notice or Proposed Rulemaking and Public Comment process. I don't like that, but on a legal/technical basis, I believe the court is correct.

Bottom line: There will be a PMTA deadline, after which any vapor product for which no application has been submitted will be de jure illegal. But a goodly portion of what's currently on the market is already illegal because it didn't exist on the Deeming Regs' "grandfather" date of 8/8/16, yet the FDA has done very little to enforce that. So perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves is: Once the PMTA deadline date arrives (whenever that ends up being), how vigorously will the FDA enforce? This is both a question of motivation and resources.

My guess is the will go after the highest profile targets first. Obviously the single highest profile target is Juul, but I have no doubt that Juul will file PMTA paperwork in time. Next on the list will likely be the biggest juice manufacturers...

My understanding of the grandfather date is that it was February 2007.
Anything on the market after feb 2007 and prior to 6-11-2016 still required PMTA by the deadline date. But could remain on the market until the PMTA process was accepted or rejected or the deadline hit.
Anything not on the market prior to 8-11-2016 was NOT permitted to be sold without a PMTA application and approval.
So it is my understanding that next may all products without a filed PMTA will be pulled unless they were on the US market prior to Feb 2007.

But then I could be mistaken.
 
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Rossum

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My understanding of the grandfather date is that it was February 2007.
Yes, anything on the market on February 15th 2007 is permanently grandfathered. Such a product does not need a PMTA, ever. But there are no such products. The FDA claims they know of one or two that might qualify, but they won't tell anyone what they are and nobody else seems to know. But even if we did know, who would want to vape something that was state-of-the-art in 2007?

Anything on the market after feb 2007 and prior to 6-11-2016 still required PMTA by the deadline date.
Anything that came to market after February 15th 2007, but prior to 8/8/2016 could remain on the market until the PMTA deadline. Some products had to be "registered", but the bar for registration was pretty low. I'm not sure where you're getting 6-11-2016 from.

Anything not on the market prior to 8-11-2016 was NOT permitted to be sold without a PMTA application and approval.
Correct, except that the date in question is 8/8/16. Also: The FDA seems to have been quite unmotivated to enforces this provision of of the Deeming, with very few exceptions.

So it is my understanding that next may all products without a filed PMTA will be pulled unless they were on the US market prior to Feb 2007..
Technically, that's correct. But what do you mean by "pulled"? Do you think the thousands of vape shops (and smoke/vape shops) in this country will suddenly stop selling hardware they get directly from China just because the deadline has passed? I don't. Heck, most of the hardware they're selling right now is already illegal because it wasn't on the market on 8/8/16, yet it hasn't been "pulled". So in the real world, much depends on how motivated the FDA is to enforce, as well as what resources they are able to commit to enforcing.

Like I said, I think it will be far easier for them to go after the biggest juice manufacturers first. Cheap bass-turds like you have seen to it that there are no hardware manufacturers in the US left to go after. :p
 

The Cromwell

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Cheap bass-turds like you have seen to it that there are no hardware manufacturers in the US left to go after.
So true :)
but then there never was enough US products on the market to sustain the demand.

One interesting point is that juice can still be manufacutred here without a PMTA, however it can only be for export.

And imports of forbidden vape products are also prohibited.

Enforcement?
Stop sale letters and possible fines up to 1 million or a bit more with repeat offenses are possible.
I expect business licences to be pulled as well.
 

Rossum

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And imports of forbidden vape products are also prohibited.
I can think of more than a few things that are "prohibited" that are readily available if a person really wants them.
Stop sale letters and possible fines up to 1 million or a bit more with repeat offenses are possible.
Where did you get the "1 million" figure for a fine? I'm not claiming it's wrong, I'd just like to know where it came from.
I expect business licences to be pulled as well.
Since when does the FDA have the power to pull business licenses?
 

The Cromwell

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I can think of more than a few things that are "prohibited" that are readily available if a person really wants them.

Where did you get the "1 million" figure for a fine? I'm not claiming it's wrong, I'd just like to know where it came from.

Since when does the FDA have the power to pull business licenses?

1, Yep you can get just about anything, but it is not generally obtained in open sale in shops advertising it's sale.

On the anything did you read about the Gun, rattlesnake and container of powdered uranium found in a traffic stop in OK?
LOL

2. I did quite a bit of research on that on the FDA site about a year ago.
As I recall it can total over 1 million with repeat offenses within a certain timeframe.
Some were saying ohh it is only a $50 fine or somesuch, which made me curious.

3. FDA does not but local municipalities and states will start pulling liscences for selling illegal vape stuff.
Admittedly an assumption at this point but I expect it to happen.
 

Rossum

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On the anything did you read about the Gun, rattlesnake and container of powdered uranium found in a traffic stop in OK?
Yep. Neither the uranium nor the rattlesnake resulted in charges. What he got busted for is driving a stolen car, a suspended license, having an open container of booze in the car, and the gun was only a problem because the passenger was a convicted felon.
 

The Cromwell

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Yep. Neither the uranium nor the rattlesnake resulted in charges. What he got busted for is driving a stolen car, a suspended license, having an open container of booze in the car, and the gun was only a problem because the passenger was a convicted felon.
When I read it the Uranium had not resulted in charges YET. They were still investigating.
I kinda doubt that it is legal to posses uranium unless you are licensed for it. But again I could be wrong :)
 

Rossum

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When I read it the Uranium had not resulted in charges YET. They were still investigating.
I kinda doubt that it is legal to posses uranium unless you are licensed for it. But again I could be wrong :)
Natural Uranium is pretty close to harmless. It's very slow-decaying (as evidenced by the fact that it still exists!) and it emits Alpha particles (a helium nucleus). Those alpha particles are easily stopped by ordinary clothing and won't penetrate your epidermis. As long as you don't grind it into a fine dust and inhale it, or eat it, it really isn't a problem.
 

The Cromwell

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Natural Uranium is pretty close to harmless. It's very slow-decaying (as evidenced by the fact that it still exists!) and it emits Alpha particles (a helium nucleus). Those alpha particles are easily stopped by ordinary clothing and won't penetrate your epidermis. As long as you don't grind it into a fine dust and inhale it, or eat it, it really isn't a problem.
But why would anyone have a container of it?
Terrorism?
A dirty bomb kind of thing?
 

Rossum

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But why would anyone have a container of it?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uranium+for+sale

chicken-crossing-road-dream-poster.jpg
 
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The Cromwell

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Why do chickens cross the road?
Because it is too long to go around.

a uranium paperweight?
Takes all kinds I suppose.
I get enough radiation from the cell tower down the road, do not need any more.

A tank of radon gas maybe?
 

The Cromwell

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I did not figure that they would.
They got the time they asked for didn't they?

sounds like the 'This is your childs mind on Ecigs' commercials are about to begin.
 

The Cromwell

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Except for a last minute reprieve from an unexpected source...

Looks like mostly a matter of how much enforcement and how soon after May.

Look though and see if Cigars get a reprieve of some sort...
That was largely what Cole-Bishop was about.
 

The Cromwell

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We already got a reprieve in 2017, when the 8/8/18 deadline got kicked down the road by the Gottlieb. Counting on another one at this point would be a mistake. Anyone that isn't ready yet would be nuts if they don't get ready between now and next May.

Agreed.
But I still suspect that cigars may get a reprieve if anything does.

And how aggressive will enforcement be?
 

Rhianne

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We already got a reprieve in 2017, when the 8/8/18 deadline got kicked down the road by the Gottlieb. Counting on another one at this point would be a mistake. Anyone that isn't ready yet would be nuts if they don't get ready between now and next May.


I hear you. Basically I have enough HW, but now I’m going to have to push it for real with DIY liquid, then <sigh> trying to rebuild.

It’s only 10 months, which isn’t that far away. Cripes!

Thanks, @Rossum, I was hoping someone would bring this up! You and Cromwell weren’t ECF vets for nothing.
 

Rhianne

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I'm not sure why you're using past-tense in my case. I make no bones about posting in both forums, and unlike so many people here, I have no grudge against ECF. :)


Not so much a grudge with me, it’s just I felt like I couldn’t put a foot right there. I will read stuff that interests me there now, but have not been signed in for a while. It’s a personality conflict with some folks there that keeps me away.

I used the past tense to include Cromwell. The mods weren’t a problem there for me; it was feeling like if I acted like myself, I was gonna be slapped down verbally or whatever.

But occasionally I miss ppl discussing Deeming or other topics and the ramifications etc. I think both forums are necessary, like vanilla and chocolate or yin/yang. We’re all vapers, and we should be on the same page for important stuff imho.

Oh, the veteran wisecrack was a compliment, actually!!
If you were there in the inception of ECF, my hats off to you.
Even if you weren’t, I liked you there and you prolly thought I was a PITA. : giggle :
 
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Rossum

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Oh, the veteran wisecrack was a compliment, actually!!
Yes, I took it that way, thank you.

If you were there in the inception of ECF, my hats off to you.
No, I found ECF and immediately joined the day after my first starter kit came in the mail, back in December of 2013.

During the fall of 2013, I had come across a bunch of articles in the media lamenting the fact that the FDA wasn't doing its job because it hadn't yet begun to regulate e-cigarettes. So I though, maybe I should try them before the FDA had a chance to ruin them. I did some cursory research and ordered an eGo style starter kit and a tobacco flavor sampler from Halo. I had no intention of quitting smoking, but was wondering if maybe it could help me cut back some.

It arrived at my office before lunch on a Friday. I plugged it in to charge and went out to lunch. When I got back from lunch, I filled it and started puffing on it. Then a miracle occurred. I didn't have a single cigarette all afternoon. Normally, I would have gone through 10-15 during that time. Yes, I smoked in my office; I own the business. If you try to tell me that I can't smoke (or now vape) in my own office (with a dedicated ventilation system) in the business that I own, you're gonna have a bad time.

The next day, I had four instead of 40+ and I joined ECF.

The following day I had two.

The day after that, just one.

The day after that, just one. That afternoon, I drove to what was at the time the nearest vape shop, where I upgraded to some bigger "spinner" type batteries, Pro Tanks, and some non-tobacco flavored juice.

The day after that, I smoked none.

I can't say ECF was solely responsible, but the support I got there was invaluable, and VU didn't exist yet.
 

Rhianne

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Yes, I took it that way, thank you.


No, I found ECF and immediately joined the day after my first starter kit came in the mail, back in December of 2013.

During the fall of 2013, I had come across a bunch of articles in the media lamenting the fact that the FDA wasn't doing its job because it hadn't yet begun to regulate e-cigarettes. So I though, maybe I should try them before the FDA had a chance to ruin them. I did some cursory research and ordered an eGo style starter kit and a tobacco flavor sampler from Halo. I had no intention of quitting smoking, but was wondering if maybe it could help me cut back some.

It arrived at my office before lunch on a Friday. I plugged it in to charge and went out to lunch. When I got back from lunch, I filled it and started puffing on it. Then a miracle occurred. I didn't have a single cigarette all afternoon. Normally, I would have gone through 10-15 during that time. Yes, I smoked in my office; I own the business. If you try to tell me that I can't smoke (or now vape) in my own office (with a dedicated ventilation system) in the business that I own, you're gonna have a bad time.

The next day, I had four instead of 40+ and I joined ECF.

The following day I had two.

The day after that, just one.

The day after that, just one. That afternoon, I drove to what was at the time the nearest vape shop, where I upgraded to some bigger "spinner" type batteries, Pro Tanks, and some non-tobacco flavored juice.

The day after that, I smoked none.

I can't say ECF was solely responsible, but the support I got there was invaluable, and VU didn't exist yet.


Nice to hear this about you. I also tried vaping 5 years ago with a VV stick mod from VaporFi and an Evod. We were dual using, though. It seemed expensive even though smokes weren’t a million dollars a pack yet!

ECF helped me quit too this time around. I lurked and read a lot of stuff so that I fell into quitting, like you did. I was able to get a decent rig which really helped. (After Smok, anything that works seems pretty good, however! ) I was blown away when I realized that I’d only smoked a couple cigs one day, and just stopped buying them.

So where were you when I needed a boss that wasn’t anti smoking in the office? :giggle:

This place is great, but ECF has some smart cool folks too. I just got tired of feeling like I was in basic training and was too new to say anything important.

I sorta wish things had turned out differently with them, though. Someone suggested I get the refugee badge so I did. But I doubt I’ll be back anytime soon, so it’s fine that I threw in my lot with VU.

I also could’ve wished that Oliver had made his presence known on ECF more than once a year. But it makes me realize that the folks that keep on posting and helping newbies are really dedicated.

One day I’ll tell you my ECF handle, but don’t want you to get nauseous yet when you hear it! Thanks, Rossum!
 
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The Cromwell

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My wife sneaked and got a a very overpriced cigalike kit for Christmas. One of those with a very overpriced prefilled carto subscription 'service'.
Knew vitrually nothing about vaping. Decided to try them since she had gone to all that trouble and within 1 week I was off of 30+ years of 1.5 pad smokes.
Figured out real quick that this kit thing was going to cost more to maintain than smoking..
Went on the web and googled, etc. Figured out how to refill cartos, ordered cartos and juice. Started lurking at ECF.
Went to a few vape shops looking to buy something better. At 2 of them the kids actually made fun of me using cigalikes... So pretty much wrote off vape shops.
So I ordered some more cigalike stuff online.
Found out I had a serious problem with most commercial juice. Watched vids on mixing. Was DIY within 2 months of starting vaping.
Went thru over 2 years of Shinyitis and VAS.
Found what I liked and stocked up because of FDA Deeming regs.
Have bought virtually no vape hardware for the past year.
Just a boring vape how and what I like kind of vaper now.
 

Rhianne

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My wife sneaked and got a a very overpriced cigalike kit for Christmas. One of those with a very overpriced prefilled carto subscription 'service'.
Knew vitrually nothing about vaping. Decided to try them since she had gone to all that trouble and within 1 week I was off of 30+ years of 1.5 pad smokes.
Figured out real quick that this kit thing was going to cost more to maintain than smoking..
Went on the web and googled, etc. Figured out how to refill cartos, ordered cartos and juice. Started lurking at ECF.
Went to a few vape shops looking to buy something better. At 2 of them the kids actually made fun of me using cigalikes... So pretty much wrote off vape shops.
So I ordered some more cigalike stuff online.
Found out I had a serious problem with most commercial juice. Watched vids on mixing. Was DIY within 2 months of starting vaping.
Went thru over 2 years of Shinyitis and VAS.
Found what I liked and stocked up because of FDA Deeming regs.
Have bought virtually no vape hardware for the past year.
Just a boring vape how and what I like kind of vaper now.


Were the cigalikes the ones that lit up at the end?
The cloud kids can get f*cked! :giggle: I skip the shops too.

Impressive with the DIY so quickly!

So you’re my new vape hero for being thrifty and staying with what you like.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

The Cromwell

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Were the cigalikes the ones that lit up at the end?
The cloud kids can get f*cked! :giggle: I skip the shops too.

Impressive with the DIY so quickly!

So you’re my new vape hero for being thrifty and staying with what you like.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yep cigalikes are about the size and shape of a real cig and with most of them the end glowed when you sucked on them.
They were vacuum activated when one sucked on them.
And as I recall low resistance cartos were around 2.2 ohms or somesuch?
This was my next phase little clearomizers and 808 threaded ego style batteries.
the T4 808D1 clearos are still sold here.
https://www.litecigusa.net/Kanger-808D-1T4-Clearomizer-p/808-kanger-t4-clearomizer.htm
SAM_0075.JPG
 

Rhianne

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Yep cigalikes are about the size and shape of a real cig and with most of them the end glowed when you sucked on them.
They were vacuum activated when one sucked on them.
And as I recall low resistance cartos were around 2.2 ohms or somesuch?
This was my next phase little clearomizers and 808 threaded ego style batteries.
the T4 808D1 clearos are still sold here.
https://www.litecigusa.net/Kanger-808D-1T4-Clearomizer-p/808-kanger-t4-clearomizer.htm
View attachment 142781


Don’t know why I have no notifications. We had the ones that lit up. Corny, and not so great.
The first vape pen I had took 1.5 to 2.5 coils. Worked well!

Hope all is well.


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The Cromwell

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A back OT kinds question.

Do you think that Credit card companies will stop dropping vape suppliers next May?
 

Rhianne

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A back OT kinds question.

Do you think that Credit card companies will stop dropping vape suppliers next May?


I hope not, but they may want to be PC and anti teen vaping and do it.

This country sucks anymore!
 

The Cromwell

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I hope not, but they may want to be PC and anti teen vaping and do it.

This country sucks anymore!
I would consider it more of avoiding illegal activity. If the items being purchased on their credit care are not permitted to be sold.
I expect the FDA to ask them to suspend credit activities with vape suppliers.
 

Rhianne

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I would consider it more of avoiding illegal activity. If the items being purchased on their credit care are not permitted to be sold.
I expect the FDA to ask them to suspend credit activities with vape suppliers.


I must be subconsciously avoiding thinking about the possibility of vaping becoming like alcohol with prohibition!!
All of this is so depressing. I just started vaping again, and now it may become illegal.

I should have more foresight and really prepare for all this, I guess!

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susieqz

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A back OT kinds question.

Do you think that Credit card companies will stop dropping vape suppliers next May?
credit card companies have dropped kratom suppliers.
all of them, i think.
vapes will be next if the companies think it will make them look good.
 

The Cromwell

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I must be subconsciously avoiding thinking about the possibility of vaping becoming like alcohol with prohibition!!
All of this is so depressing. I just started vaping again, and now it may become illegal.

I should have more foresight and really prepare for all this, I guess!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Watch of clearance sales and such for vaping stuff that you use and learn to DIY.
We ill still be able to get batteries, wick, wire and DIY supplies.
Even if the worst happens.
Nicotine may become problematic though.
 

The Cromwell

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credit card companies have dropped kratom suppliers.
all of them, i think.
vapes will be next if the companies think it will make them look good.
I can get Kratom with CC with one supplier.
although the charge is not to the actual Kratom company...

But yes I expect the same treatment with vape suppliers once the May date rolls around and most all vape stuff is banned from sale in the USA.

That is of course assuming no last minute reprieve...
 

Rhianne

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Watch of clearance sales and such for vaping stuff that you use and learn to DIY.
We ill still be able to get batteries, wick, wire and DIY supplies.
Even if the worst happens.
Nicotine may become problematic though.

If nicotine is banned for sale in DIY form, what’s going to happen? I don’t want to extract tobacco in my apartment. The kitchen is small for one person!!


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