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It’s like they’re following the lost tax revenue over to juice sales. Probably the wave of the future, unfortunately.
Are the states that are doing this now not aware that the countdown has started?
Yep next year and the tax angle will be interesting.Are the states that are doing this now not aware that the countdown has started? Due to Judge Grimm's latest ruling, we now have a bit less than 10 months until the PMTA deadline. Then there's the absurd restricted flow requirement imposed by the CPSC that's directly at odds with the FDA's rules that don't allow any changes, not even packaging, without a PMTA right now. I wouldn't count on much revenue from this tax because these two things are likely to make the market for juice so informal that collecting and remitting a tax will be the least of anyone's worries.
Are the states that are doing this now not aware that the countdown has started? Due to Judge Grimm's latest ruling, we now have a bit less than 10 months until the PMTA deadline. Then there's the absurd restricted flow requirement imposed by the CPSC that's directly at odds with the FDA's rules that don't allow any changes, not even packaging, without a PMTA right now. I wouldn't count on much revenue from this tax because these two things are likely to make the market for juice so informal that collecting and remitting a tax will be the least of anyone's worries.
It was a Federal Judge in a Federal Court. The American Association of Pediatrics sued the FDA. So this ruling does affect the entire country.Yeah what are they going to do if this Judge, in what Maryland, decided to make a ruling affecting the entire country? I have a feeling his ruling with be thrown out since it is over stepping boundaries and conflicts with too many things. Sort of wait and see what happens now?
Yep. The question is, are they big enough to have the resources required to file the extensive sort of PMTA that the FDA wants to see?A new thought. A lot of the juice sold by various juice companys are made in a few 'labs'. The FDA shutting down those labs will kill much of the juice industry.
It was a Federal Judge in a Federal Court. The American Association of Pediatrics sued the FDA. So this ruling does affect the entire country.
Whether it will be thrown out or not depends whether the FDA decides to appeal it. There's a school of legal thought that says they have no legal basis to appeal it, because the judge granted them the compromise they asked for -- 10 months -- instead of the 4 months the AAP asked for.
Any appeal would only shift the date. The original deadline for PMTAs set by Obama's FDA was 8/8/18. Then in 2017 Trump's FDA punted it to 8/8/22. More recently pressure from the ANTZ got them to pull it forward to 8/8/21 for many products (the "flavored" ones). Now a court has ruled that the 2017 punt was illegal, because it didn't go through the Notice or Proposed Rulemaking and Public Comment process. I don't like that, but on a legal/technical basis, I believe the court is correct.
Bottom line: There will be a PMTA deadline, after which any vapor product for which no application has been submitted will be de jure illegal. But a goodly portion of what's currently on the market is already illegal because it didn't exist on the Deeming Regs' "grandfather" date of 8/8/16, yet the FDA has done very little to enforce that. So perhaps the question we should be asking ourselves is: Once the PMTA deadline date arrives (whenever that ends up being), how vigorously will the FDA enforce? This is both a question of motivation and resources.
My guess is the will go after the highest profile targets first. Obviously the single highest profile target is Juul, but I have no doubt that Juul will file PMTA paperwork in time. Next on the list will likely be the biggest juice manufacturers...
Yes, anything on the market on February 15th 2007 is permanently grandfathered. Such a product does not need a PMTA, ever. But there are no such products. The FDA claims they know of one or two that might qualify, but they won't tell anyone what they are and nobody else seems to know. But even if we did know, who would want to vape something that was state-of-the-art in 2007?My understanding of the grandfather date is that it was February 2007.
Anything that came to market after February 15th 2007, but prior to 8/8/2016 could remain on the market until the PMTA deadline. Some products had to be "registered", but the bar for registration was pretty low. I'm not sure where you're getting 6-11-2016 from.Anything on the market after feb 2007 and prior to 6-11-2016 still required PMTA by the deadline date.
Correct, except that the date in question is 8/8/16. Also: The FDA seems to have been quite unmotivated to enforces this provision of of the Deeming, with very few exceptions.Anything not on the market prior to 8-11-2016 was NOT permitted to be sold without a PMTA application and approval.
Technically, that's correct. But what do you mean by "pulled"? Do you think the thousands of vape shops (and smoke/vape shops) in this country will suddenly stop selling hardware they get directly from China just because the deadline has passed? I don't. Heck, most of the hardware they're selling right now is already illegal because it wasn't on the market on 8/8/16, yet it hasn't been "pulled". So in the real world, much depends on how motivated the FDA is to enforce, as well as what resources they are able to commit to enforcing.So it is my understanding that next may all products without a filed PMTA will be pulled unless they were on the US market prior to Feb 2007..
my errer 8-8-2016I'm not sure where you're getting 6-11-2016 from.
So trueCheap bass-turds like you have seen to it that there are no hardware manufacturers in the US left to go after.
I can think of more than a few things that are "prohibited" that are readily available if a person really wants them.And imports of forbidden vape products are also prohibited.
Where did you get the "1 million" figure for a fine? I'm not claiming it's wrong, I'd just like to know where it came from.Stop sale letters and possible fines up to 1 million or a bit more with repeat offenses are possible.
Since when does the FDA have the power to pull business licenses?I expect business licences to be pulled as well.
I can think of more than a few things that are "prohibited" that are readily available if a person really wants them.
Where did you get the "1 million" figure for a fine? I'm not claiming it's wrong, I'd just like to know where it came from.
Since when does the FDA have the power to pull business licenses?
Yep. Neither the uranium nor the rattlesnake resulted in charges. What he got busted for is driving a stolen car, a suspended license, having an open container of booze in the car, and the gun was only a problem because the passenger was a convicted felon.On the anything did you read about the Gun, rattlesnake and container of powdered uranium found in a traffic stop in OK?
When I read it the Uranium had not resulted in charges YET. They were still investigating.Yep. Neither the uranium nor the rattlesnake resulted in charges. What he got busted for is driving a stolen car, a suspended license, having an open container of booze in the car, and the gun was only a problem because the passenger was a convicted felon.
Natural Uranium is pretty close to harmless. It's very slow-decaying (as evidenced by the fact that it still exists!) and it emits Alpha particles (a helium nucleus). Those alpha particles are easily stopped by ordinary clothing and won't penetrate your epidermis. As long as you don't grind it into a fine dust and inhale it, or eat it, it really isn't a problem.When I read it the Uranium had not resulted in charges YET. They were still investigating.
I kinda doubt that it is legal to posses uranium unless you are licensed for it. But again I could be wrong
But why would anyone have a container of it?Natural Uranium is pretty close to harmless. It's very slow-decaying (as evidenced by the fact that it still exists!) and it emits Alpha particles (a helium nucleus). Those alpha particles are easily stopped by ordinary clothing and won't penetrate your epidermis. As long as you don't grind it into a fine dust and inhale it, or eat it, it really isn't a problem.
We already got a reprieve in 2017, when the 8/8/18 deadline got kicked down the road by the Gottlieb. Counting on another one at this point would be a mistake. Anyone that isn't ready yet would be nuts if they don't get ready between now and next May.Except for a last minute reprieve from an unexpected source...
We already got a reprieve in 2017, when the 8/8/18 deadline got kicked down the road by the Gottlieb. Counting on another one at this point would be a mistake. Anyone that isn't ready yet would be nuts if they don't get ready between now and next May.
That's the 6.4 billion dollar question, isn't it?And how aggressive will enforcement be?
We already got a reprieve in 2017, when the 8/8/18 deadline got kicked down the road by the Gottlieb. Counting on another one at this point would be a mistake. Anyone that isn't ready yet would be nuts if they don't get ready between now and next May.
I'm not sure why you're using past-tense in my case. I make no bones about posting in both forums, and unlike so many people here, I have no grudge against ECF.Thanks, @Rossum, I was hoping someone would bring this up! You and Cromwell weren’t ECF vets for nothing.
I'm not sure why you're using past-tense in my case. I make no bones about posting in both forums, and unlike so many people here, I have no grudge against ECF.
Yes, I took it that way, thank you.Oh, the veteran wisecrack was a compliment, actually!!
No, I found ECF and immediately joined the day after my first starter kit came in the mail, back in December of 2013.If you were there in the inception of ECF, my hats off to you.
Yes, I took it that way, thank you.
No, I found ECF and immediately joined the day after my first starter kit came in the mail, back in December of 2013.
During the fall of 2013, I had come across a bunch of articles in the media lamenting the fact that the FDA wasn't doing its job because it hadn't yet begun to regulate e-cigarettes. So I though, maybe I should try them before the FDA had a chance to ruin them. I did some cursory research and ordered an eGo style starter kit and a tobacco flavor sampler from Halo. I had no intention of quitting smoking, but was wondering if maybe it could help me cut back some.
It arrived at my office before lunch on a Friday. I plugged it in to charge and went out to lunch. When I got back from lunch, I filled it and started puffing on it. Then a miracle occurred. I didn't have a single cigarette all afternoon. Normally, I would have gone through 10-15 during that time. Yes, I smoked in my office; I own the business. If you try to tell me that I can't smoke (or now vape) in my own office (with a dedicated ventilation system) in the business that I own, you're gonna have a bad time.
The next day, I had four instead of 40+ and I joined ECF.
The following day I had two.
The day after that, just one.
The day after that, just one. That afternoon, I drove to what was at the time the nearest vape shop, where I upgraded to some bigger "spinner" type batteries, Pro Tanks, and some non-tobacco flavored juice.
The day after that, I smoked none.
I can't say ECF was solely responsible, but the support I got there was invaluable, and VU didn't exist yet.
My wife sneaked and got a a very overpriced cigalike kit for Christmas. One of those with a very overpriced prefilled carto subscription 'service'.
Knew vitrually nothing about vaping. Decided to try them since she had gone to all that trouble and within 1 week I was off of 30+ years of 1.5 pad smokes.
Figured out real quick that this kit thing was going to cost more to maintain than smoking..
Went on the web and googled, etc. Figured out how to refill cartos, ordered cartos and juice. Started lurking at ECF.
Went to a few vape shops looking to buy something better. At 2 of them the kids actually made fun of me using cigalikes... So pretty much wrote off vape shops.
So I ordered some more cigalike stuff online.
Found out I had a serious problem with most commercial juice. Watched vids on mixing. Was DIY within 2 months of starting vaping.
Went thru over 2 years of Shinyitis and VAS.
Found what I liked and stocked up because of FDA Deeming regs.
Have bought virtually no vape hardware for the past year.
Just a boring vape how and what I like kind of vaper now.
Yep cigalikes are about the size and shape of a real cig and with most of them the end glowed when you sucked on them.Were the cigalikes the ones that lit up at the end?
The cloud kids can get f*cked! I skip the shops too.
Impressive with the DIY so quickly!
So you’re my new vape hero for being thrifty and staying with what you like.
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Yep cigalikes are about the size and shape of a real cig and with most of them the end glowed when you sucked on them.
They were vacuum activated when one sucked on them.
And as I recall low resistance cartos were around 2.2 ohms or somesuch?
This was my next phase little clearomizers and 808 threaded ego style batteries.
the T4 808D1 clearos are still sold here.
https://www.litecigusa.net/Kanger-808D-1T4-Clearomizer-p/808-kanger-t4-clearomizer.htm
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There is a Lert shortage.
Darned Lert hoarders.
Time does not exist for lerts.
A back OT kinds question.
Do you think that Credit card companies will stop dropping vape suppliers next May?
I would consider it more of avoiding illegal activity. If the items being purchased on their credit care are not permitted to be sold.I hope not, but they may want to be PC and anti teen vaping and do it.
This country sucks anymore!
I would consider it more of avoiding illegal activity. If the items being purchased on their credit care are not permitted to be sold.
I expect the FDA to ask them to suspend credit activities with vape suppliers.
credit card companies have dropped kratom suppliers.A back OT kinds question.
Do you think that Credit card companies will stop dropping vape suppliers next May?
Watch of clearance sales and such for vaping stuff that you use and learn to DIY.I must be subconsciously avoiding thinking about the possibility of vaping becoming like alcohol with prohibition!!
All of this is so depressing. I just started vaping again, and now it may become illegal.
I should have more foresight and really prepare for all this, I guess!
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I can get Kratom with CC with one supplier.credit card companies have dropped kratom suppliers.
all of them, i think.
vapes will be next if the companies think it will make them look good.
Watch of clearance sales and such for vaping stuff that you use and learn to DIY.
We ill still be able to get batteries, wick, wire and DIY supplies.
Even if the worst happens.
Nicotine may become problematic though.