Five Pawns diketone test results

[RobbieR]

I agree @pulsevape

Five Pawns just made the entire vaping industry look like a bunch of idiots. Law makers all over the world are going to use this as ammunition for anti vaping laws and stricter regulations, and to be honest I might actually support some sort of government regulation when it comes to e-liquid after seeing this. Now I am suspect of all the juice I have in my collection.

 

[RobbieR]

yeah, I remember the DIY and 'made in USA' thing started, in part, because of fears of what might be in their made in China eliquid (back when made in China was pretty much all there was).

In Canada the Vaping Industry is trying to get our government to Ban all E-Juice from China because of the potential for Hazardous Ingredients from irresponsible Chinese manufacturers. Who would have guessed that one of the largest North American e-juice manufacturers is just as bad.

 

[OBDave]

I still cant wrap my head around $1 PER ML!!! So saying their profit margin is at least 20-1 is a modest estimate. All the while, raking in huge money and knowing exactly what they put in their juice, they still feel the compulsion to lie to their customers.

I cant imagine much will happen though. Suicide bunny is still sold all over the country and people are still buying it. People have a very short memory, especially for completely intangible, possibly harmful chemicals. .

You've gotta remember that we, the folks who geek out on all things vape on the internet, are in the minority - most people just head into a shop and pick up whatever tastes good. I'll bet most have never even heard of a diketone.

What gets me is that they say in one breath that they think diketones are safe and in the next demand that people stop talking about it in connection with their juice.

 

[VaporJoe]

Canadian trade association ECTA notifies 50 vendors to cease selling Five Pawns e-liquids https://cdn.fbsbx.com/hphotos-xpt1/...d141a4c215bc86815258ea1ecd19&oe=55970963&dl=1
https://cdn.fbsbx.com/hphotos-xpt1/...d141a4c215bc86815258ea1ecd19&oe=55970963&dl=1

 

[Whiskey]

Wow..........

 

[pulsevape]

Canadian trade association ECTA notifies 50 vendors to cease selling Five Pawns e-liquids
https://cdn.fbsbx.com/hphotos-xpt1/...d141a4c215bc86815258ea1ecd19&oe=55970963&dl=1

Canada also outlawed fun and humor...but only 5 pawns had it coming.

 

[pulsevape]

So, it may be that the lab that did the tests for cloud9, may not be all that dependable.....I guess we'll have to what and see.

 

[VinceV1]

Seriously.....after all this would you take their word for anything....they can reformulate all they want they are going to be forever known from now on as lying sacks of shit.

Even If the numbers of Five Pawns are the truth, there are levels of AP up to nearly 10 times the level where a product should not be sold. IF the new study is the truth the problem is up to 25 times worse. So, regarless the study, there is a problem.

 

[pulsevape]

If the numbers of Five Pawns are the thruth, there are levels of AP up to nearly 10 times the level where a product should not be sold. So, regarless the study, there is a problem.

This is quite true,really at this point 5 pawns is trying to shift the arguemnet onto a numbers game rather than a knowing conspiracy to defraud the public.

 

[Mattp169]

I would just like to say this.

I see cloud 9 says the tested 5 pawns juice. Those results are ridiculously high
5 pawns counters says no these are our results. Granted some numbers are a air higher then we would like but very different then cloud 9's report.
Then I see most people on the forum immediately come to the conclusion 5 pawns is dishonest.

Could other things be happening?
Could cloud 9 be up to something and being dishonest?
could there have been contaminated samples?
could the suppliers 5 pawns used changed something without 5 pawns knowledge to make cloud 9's results accurate? Which in turn would only be a fuck up on 5 pawns part and not an intentional attempt to deceive
Could 5 pawns simply contaminated their batches somehow unknowingly?

I think there are many options here,

SO WHY IS IT that most are IMMEDIATELY jumping to the conclusion 5 pawns is being dishonest? Am I missing something?

 

[VinceV1]

I would just like to say this.

I see cloud 9 says the tested 5 pawns juice. Those results are ridiculously high
5 pawns counters says no these are our results. Granted some numbers are a air higher then we would like but very different then cloud 9's report.
Then I see most people on the forum immediately come to the conclusion 5 pawns is dishonest.

Could other things be happening?
Could cloud 9 be up to something and being dishonest?
could there have been contaminated samples?
could the suppliers 5 pawns used changed something without 5 pawns knowledge to make cloud 9's results accurate? Which in turn would only be a fuck up on 5 pawns part and not an intentional attempt to deceive
Could 5 pawns simply contaminated their batches somehow unknowingly?

I think there are many options here,

SO WHY IS IT that most are IMMEDIATELY jumping to the conclusion 5 pawns is being dishonest? Am I missing something?

Let's suppose that Cloud9vaping have bad samples and their numbers are totally wrong.

The numbers that Five Pawns rely on, with her own study, are not adequate. Do they know the best practices of this business ? This answer is no. You cannot sell a product with 250 units of AP while saying your products are free of bad stuff. The maximum tolerated is under 100 units WITH disclosure when you want to be clean with your customers. End of the story.

 

[Zamazam]

Amazing that 5 Pawns brags about their ultra modern clean lab in their promo vids.....doesn't help them much if their QA is shite. The testing lab cloud 9 used was a reputable British government testing lab. Then Five Pawns, snarkily files a cease and desist order against cloud 9 vaping and tries to discredit them on their blog. Not a very sporting way to handle criticism. Shops are beginning to pull Five Pawns from their shelves. I say that's a good thing.

You can make your juice in a class 1 clean room, does not matter one bit if the flavorings are ultra high in DE and AP. A couple local B&M's pulled the juice from their cases today. One owner called me to discuss the situation. He didn't know about it until a customer linked him to VU and Russ Wishtart's info, including the assay testing done by the lab. 5 Pawns fucked themselves by flat out lying, after their own testing indicated their products were high in AP and DE.

 

[Mattp169]

You can make your juice in a class 1 clean room, does not matter one bit if the flavorings are ultra high in DE and AP. A couple local B&M's pulled the juice from their cases today. One owner called me to discuss the situation. He didn't know about it until a customer linked him to VU and Russ Wishtart's info, including the assay testing done by the lab. 5 Pawns fucked themselves by flat out lying, after their own testing indicated their products were high in AP and DE.

HIGH by WHO's Standards? I saw what joe posted and that is canada's amounts. Is there actual medical data to backup those numbers to be accepted as pure gospel, or are they just a bureaucratic set of numbers?

Im not trying to defend 5 pawns or criticize any posters. I dont know shit about these two things DA and AP except they can be bad for you to vape. Im trying to understand why the IMMEDIATE reaction by most was that 5 pawns lied and was being dishonest to the consumers? I feel like I am missing something

 

[Zamazam]

The results were posted briefly before being pulled from the internet pending legal advice. Why the fuss? Simple. Two things immediately created shock and outrage. Nicotine levels were in some cases, wildly inaccurate. Worse, levels of Acetyl Propionyl (Acetylpropionyl, also known as acetyl propionyl or 2,3–pentanedione) were found to be soaring ridiculously higher than the accepted safe limits indicated by NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health). More on that here:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-245/0245-081211-draftdocument.pdf

Source: http://vaporjoescanada.com/2015/07/01/five-pawns-whats-in-your-premium-priced-e-juice/

 

[VinceV1]

HIGH by WHO's Standards? I saw what joe posted and that is canada's amounts. Is there actual medical data to backup those numbers to be accepted as pure gospel, or are they just a bureaucratic set of numbers?

Im not trying to defend 5 pawns or criticize any posters. I dont know shit about these two things DA and AP except they can be bad for you to vape. Im trying to understand why the IMMEDIATE reaction by most was that 5 pawns lied and was being dishonest to the consumers? I feel like I am missing something

Courtesy of Phil Busardo (Tasteyourjuice.com)
At 58:40 minutes (discussion about diacetyl and Niosh)
https://soundcloud.com/soundcloud.com%2Fvp-live%2Fsmokefreeradio-ecig-perception-in-the-political-circles

 

[Mattp169]

ok if I am reading the summary correctly
that study suggests that you should not be exposed to more the 5 PARTS PER BILLION on avg for a 40 hour work week and no more then 25ppBILLION during a 15 minute time frame for DA

it says ap is a synonym for this 2,3-Pentanedione and that exposur eshould be below 9.3ppBILLION on avg for a 40 hour work week and 31ppBILLION during a 15 minute stretch.

so let me do some handy dandy math

That means the ECTF numbers are significantly higher then the cdc's numbers and not by a little but by a lot.
the ECTF's cutoff is .0001%
while the cdc is using .000000005% for da and .0000000093 for ap

so who is right?
and this study by the CDC was done for workplace inhalation of particles not vaporized particles being inhaled in a vape could the safe numbers for one be significantly different then the other safe number.

TY to shazam for pointing out this report to me.
while I am still clueless as to what is too much, i think it is clear not everyone agrees on the numbers.

I can see that it is possible 5 pawns definition of safe levels of DA and AP are just different then others. I mean chocolate bars contain bugs and other nasty stuff, just as long as theres not too much they don't have to include that as an ingredient. So until there is a universally accepted amount determined for juice, maybe we should hold off on out right bashing them

I mean by the ectf standards on 5 pawns results 6 out of the 11 were fine
1 was just barely over
1 is ridiculously high
and the rest were just mildly high

If we were to apply the CDC standard now none of that would be acceptable and would be considered extremely high even the DA amounts

Now with the major difference between the CDC and ECTF recommendations it is quite possible the amounts shown in the 5 pawns results seemed negligible to them based on their knowledge of the matter.

 

[VinceV1]

@Mattp169 :

1. Listen to the radio show.

2. This is what sellers of 5P say :

Flavors are extracted from actual base ingredients and offered in 0mg, 6mg, 12mg, 18mg, and 24mg nicotine doses. Five Pawns contains no artificial flavors or colors and definitely does not contain diacetyl, acetyl propionyl or acetoin.

 

[VinceV1]

Fraud is the word used by Dimitri to define such a practice of not telling the truth to customers. I will not reply. Good night.

 

[Mattp169]

thanks for the info folks.
Im starting to see,
would i be correct in assuming that the 5 pawns website originally said there was no da or ap and have since changed their site?

 

[pulsevape]

all the nic levels were lower....like you vape more juice to get your nic fix they sell more bottles.....how the hell do you sell a bottle of juice with HALF the nic level you say it is....any damn fool in the back room of a B&M mixes alot closer.....that wasn't a case of incompetence that was done on purpose.
I recomend everyone listen to Russ Whishtart's program on 5 pawns he lays out all kinds of things and outlines what happened.

 

[RobbieR]

A poster on thegrumpyvaper.com reported the UK E-Cigarette Trade Association ECITA has told all its members to stop selling all US made juice that does not have Testing Certificates. I guess this is a result of the Five Pawns test results. There is nothing on their website so this is just internet chatter at this point.

 

[pulsevape]

A poster on thegrumpyvaper.com reported the UK E-Cigarette Trade Association ECITA has told all its members to stop selling all US made juice that does not have Testing Certificates. I guess this is a result of the Five Pawns test results. There is nothing on their website so this is just internet chatter at this point.

Boy if it's true....I wouldn't want to be the guy who owns 5P.....he's taken the bread out of alot of mouths.

 

[pulsevape]

What is even more amazing is that 5 pawns has issued no apology,has not pulled a single bottle of juice,issued no warnings about it's product....they're just going to attempte to brave it out.....or they learned the first rule of all criminals......admit nothing.

 

[RobbieR]

What is even more amazing is that 5 pawns has issued no apology,has not pulled a single bottle of juice,issued no warnings about it's product....they're just going to attempte to brave it out.....or they learned the first rule of all criminals......admit nothing.

Apologizing would be admitting fault. They are just going to ride it out and hope everyone forgets about those silly meaningless numbers.

 

[pulsevape]

they're whisteling past the graveyard then.

 

[VinceV1]

Look at the statement of June 2015 :
"While AP has not been linked to any health concerns related specifically to vaping, and it is not banned by the FDA or any International body, its relative safety or harm is unknown. (Content updated 07/01/2015)"

This information is taken from which galaxy ? This is not what Niosh seems to say at all. AP is as bad. This is what Dr. Farsalinos said. Again they don't seem to know the best practices of the vaping industry... The planet marketing is not aware of those health issues.

5P was supposed to be bad stuff free until the release of Cloud9vaping... Vapers have been cheated.

 

[hazozita]

Informative summation of the situation: http://ecigarettereviewed.com/Diacetyl-acetyl-propionyl-five-pawns

 

[VaporJoe]

Tyger dropped the bomb yesterday... lots of views on this post:
http://vaporjoescanada.com/2015/07/01/five-pawns-whats-in-your-premium-priced-e-juice/

 

[jack]

For what they charge for that juice can't they tell people the truth , Really ! Jesus H. Christ !

 

[pulsevape]

So....anybody want to start an e juice company with me....I know where to get some equipment dirt cheap....also loads of pretentious labels.
The fuckers....absolute pin was my ADV for a couple of months. the owner of this company has made some brutal karma for himself.

 

[GrayVaper]

This entire situation leaves my mind numb. I have my third bottle of Black Flag Fallen waiting to be opened. Luckily I am not a lung hitter.
I'm done with the brand even if they reformulate.

 

[Pauly Walnuts]

So....anybody want to start an e juice company with me....I know where to get some equipment dirt cheap....also loads of pretentious labels.
The fuckers....absolute pin was my ADV for a couple of months. the owner of this company has made some brutal karma for himself.

For what they charge for that juice can't they tell people the truth , Really ! Jesus H. Christ !

For what they charge, they could have a team of scientists working to find a better replacement for chemicals people purposefully stay away from.
I could understand a little bit, like the use of some capella vanilla custard or other 'bad stuff' flavorings in small amounts. The fact that the DA/AP is so high, is absolutely insane.
But dont worry about them, I guarantee the owners have enough savings to buy an island somewhere.

 

[pulsevape]

It better be an uncharted Island, cause he's gotta alot of people really pissed off.
My guess is the owner Rodney Jerabek will quietly close the doors like a thief in the night, and disappere...he'll probablly turn to selling herbal wieght loss pills, that are just amphetamines.
You just know he has the entire staff of 5 pawns sitting at their desks watgching every vaping forum in the US and Europe trying to gauge the fallout....and eyeing property in brazil or uraguay.

 

[MEENMAN83]

Hopefully a drunk driver plows into and kills the 5P owner. We can bail out the driver and use the legal defense of we knew he was drunk but not totally drunk so it was okay. See clever use 5Ps bullshit defense against them anyways fuck 5P. @MattP 169 passive agressive posts of saying one is impartial is bullshit, you can't change the fact your company fucked up, enjoy the piper pricks.

 

[VinceV1]

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[MEENMAN83]

Now they say on Youtube that the results of Cloud9vaping were before the new formulation.... hahaha. The new formulation is 3 hours old, because they never talked about that since the start of this scandal. This was out of the dicsussion. Lies on lies... this is how it looks.

5Ps should look at running for presidency they are chalk full of that shitty tap dancing around major issues....maybe Bill Clit'n is feeding them lines from his infamous I did not inhale campaign.

 

[itsyourmove]

DA/AP is now being replaced with a very safe chemical with a nice buttery taste. It's called Butyric Acid. Dr F approved.

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0300.pdf

 

[pulsevape]

doesn't sound safe from that link .

 

[VinceV1]

DA/AP is now being replaced with a very safe chemical with a nice buttery taste. It's called Butyric Acid. Dr F approved.

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0300.pdf

Yes, but not all companies use this or even acetoin in replacement of DA-AP.

 

[itsyourmove]

Yes, but not all companies use this or even acetoin in replacement of DA-AP.

What do they use for the buttery taste? The problem is the substitute can be worse than what it's replacing.

 

[VinceV1]

And Five Pawns are still in the step of science denial. No recall of products. Nothing. They are free to have the position they want, but we are not in the same boat.

What do they use for the buttery taste? The problem is the substitute can be worse than what it's replacing.

Seriously ? I don't think so.

 

[outwest]

After reading this, I'd rather have some acetoin than the butyric acid (at least until shown to be safe). If end up with a mix of butyric and diacetyl in a blend, sounds like it could be very bad http://www.nudenicotine.com/gcms-critical-info-butyric-acid-modulates-diketone-toxicity/

 

[VinceV1]

After reading this, I'd rather have some acetoin than the butyric acid (at least until shown to be safe). If end up with a mix of butyric and diacetyl in a blend, sounds like it could be very bad http://www.nudenicotine.com/gcms-critical-info-butyric-acid-modulates-diketone-toxicity/

Yes. But people who buy flavors with BA are generally not interested in buying flavors with DAP. But companies of e-liquid should know about that.

 

[outwest]

Yes. But people who buy flavors with BA are generally not interested in buying flavors with DAP. But companies of e-liquid should know about that.

True, but there's that hidden diacetyl that sneaks up on people/companies. . .

 

[itsyourmove]

Here are FP own test results. http://fivepawns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/5pNa064R-Summary-.pdf

Here are Nicotickets own test results. https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/nicoticket-testing-results.674791/

Five Pawns is the villain?

 

[Gratefulvapes]

That's what I thought, but Russ Wishtart posted the test results and they show most are around a 70PG/30VG blend.

https://www.scribd.com/collections/14300538/Five-Pawns-diacetyl-acetyl-propionyl-test-results

Thread on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...since_cloud9_removed_the_diacetyl_and_acetyl/

Interesting because VG can in turn effect the diacetyl that is present in e-liquid. I personally don't think diacetyl and ap are a problem if you try to avoid mixing them straight up, or use flavors you know contain them (I threw away a lot of extracts when these studies all came out). There is always a chance some will form, but that is usually around 13ppm in those cases.

The simple fact that Five Pawns made no effort to resolve this problem before it hit the press, speaks numbers on their process. I really liked them, but not after all the bs press releases that they have done. Makes it hard for me, a person trying to change the opinions of diacetyl, and its harm, to support them. Even though I rant on forms here that diacetyl isn't as harmful as it is made out to be, as a juice maker I still try my best to make flavors that don't contain these ingredients. Mostly because people are convinced that if they vape the stuff the will get popcorn lung (I can't express how much this notion drives me nuts). Give the customer what they are looking for. Many customers don't want diacetyl in their liquid, this is nothing new and calling your self the golden standard of eliquid you would think you would be creating a product most people are looking for.

 

[itsyourmove]

Those results were the cloud9 testing which they pulled down and kept down although they stand by them they won't put them back up. IMO cloud 9 should have tested them twice before going public, also they never posted the results of their own brand which is made in China. A few weeks from now this will all be moot with all the other juice companies who have not been tested.

 

[VinceV1]

Those results were the cloud9 testing which they pulled down and kept down although they stand by them they won't put them back up. IMO cloud 9 should have tested them twice before going public, also they never posted the results of their own brand which is made in China. A few weeks from now this will all be moot with all the other juice companies who have not been tested.

This will be evolution.

 

[PuffV]

What I'm curious about is what flavouring companies they're using for manufacturing. Wouldn't this be a huge industry problem if they're using TFA/Capellas/Flavorwest? I agree that Five Pawns has no excuse for endangering their customers, and should be doing whatever they can to save their reputation. $1 an ml and high volume sales should put enough in the bank for a serious QC protocol. But besides that, I think the heart of the problem lies within the big flavouring companies. If TFA, flavor west and capella's stopped selling any products with DA and AP then we could start to minimize the problem. Or maybe all the 5 pawns flavours are packed with custard flavouring from John's cake shop from down the street. Who knows. What does everyone think the true risks of DA and AP are? Is there really a chance that the repercussions are even close to that of conventional cigs? I'm new to the forum, time to dive a little deeper into the underground!
Andrew

 

[mike.dunning.370]

They are being labeled dishonest because they are dishonest and knew exactly what they were selling to the public and did not care!