So I notice the forum has a new sponsor: Flavorah, a new supplier of DIY concentrates. Who's gonna take one for the team and order and review some of their products? I vote HIC since his extortion is well documented in another recent thread. 
Become a Patron!
Flavorah
- Thread starter Zanaspus
- Start date
lol - I'm not done playing with the others I have.
It is pretty cool that they list the densities of their flavorings for the scale mixers.
It is pretty cool that they list the densities of their flavorings for the scale mixers.
RocketPuppy
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Listing the densities is cool. Their prices are high, even with using low percentages. It seems that while their company is located in WA, their flavors are made in NC.
Just found some info. Funny that they offered a discount for reddit but not here, even though they have a nice shiny banner.
http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/2x7yc8/introducing_flavorah_diy_flavors/
Just found some info. Funny that they offered a discount for reddit but not here, even though they have a nice shiny banner.
http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/2x7yc8/introducing_flavorah_diy_flavors/
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RocketPuppy
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I find http://www.flavorah.com/about/company/ this to be an odd read. Are they saying that popular juice companies use their flavors?
RocketPuppy
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http://stores.ebay.com/flavorah
4 cents cheaper on ebay.
Love that they use TFA and FA in their flavor description. Good hook. lol
4 cents cheaper on ebay.
Love that they use TFA and FA in their flavor description. Good hook. lol
Well, I gave it a shot using the reddit+ promo. 14 bottles for $35 is not a bad deal. Went for the savory and the fruit packs, but asked for 2 substitutions in the comments to get rid of the spearmint and the Crème de Menthe (not a mint fan). Not sure if substitutions are possible, but figured I'd give it a shot.
Will report back on findings once they get here.
Will report back on findings once they get here.
substitutions are allowed based on the reddit thread. Vanilla custard is supposed to be the best there is.
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Thanks for the Cue, my bad here
All the information was there, and it seems like I got the 4 samples that came with the VUG code.
No bad intentions here
Yeah... it's pretty unclear to me too. Reading on reddit I got the impression they were basically a smallish start-up compounder that bought the components for their flavorings from a big company (Mother Murphy's is what someone said). I had thought, based on whatever I read on reddit plus the presentation of their site (not super slick or corporate, not a whole lot of content), that they were a compounder like www.mamajsjuice.com or TFA--but somewhere in the middle between the two in terms of size of operation. That could be wrong... If it's not wrong, then the blurb on their About page -- the part where they say:
"Chances are if you have ever purchased a disposable ecigarette from one of the two leading brands, or vaped ejuice in the past year, then you have tasted some of our flavors."
Is confusing and possibly misleading, but technically accurate. Let's say they are a small-to-mid-size compounder and they get their components directly from a giant manufacturer which happens also to supply the flavor compounders most frequently used by juice vendors. In that case, there is very likely some overlap in "flavors". But the term "our flavors" in the above--at least in this scenario I'm describing--would have to be referring to the flavor components from which they (Flavorah) make the flavor blends they are selling.
And speaking of which, OMG that was really unclear. My brain is mush. I'm hangry, I'm punchy and I need a nap.
Maybe someone from Flavorah will come on here and talk to us and we can ask questions--only shorter and more to the point.. like yours, puppy
Anyway, I did what hazozita did and ordered using the reddit promo (better deal) and got to pick 14 15ml size bottles for 35- including shipping. Also, my tracking info appeared within hours of my order. It was such a good deal, I threw caution to the wind and ordered even though there are definitely baddies in flavors like their strawberry and coconut.
Oh, another odd thing--they mention diacetyl in their strawberry and coconut, but it's not mentioned as being in their vanilla custard flavor, which from the few reports so far, is supposed to be really good.
You understanding of their company and flavoring is an excellent (non-mush) summary of everything I've picked up about how they work. In answer to your other question about the VC, it's non Diacetyl but (quoting their site) "Vanilla Custard flavors contain traces of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl." They don't add the stuff but it naturally occurs in small amounts.Yeah... it's pretty unclear to me too. Reading on reddit I got the impression they were basically a smallish start-up compounder that bought the components for their flavorings from a big company (Mother Murphy's is what someone said). I had thought, based on whatever I read on reddit plus the presentation of their site (not super slick or corporate, not a whole lot of content), that they were a compounder like www.mamajsjuice.com or TFA--but somewhere in the middle between the two in terms of size of operation. That could be wrong... If it's not wrong, then the blurb on their About page -- the part where they say:
"Chances are if you have ever purchased a disposable ecigarette from one of the two leading brands, or vaped ejuice in the past year, then you have tasted some of our flavors."
Is confusing and possibly misleading, but technically accurate. Let's say they are a small-to-mid-size compounder and they get their components directly from a giant manufacturer which happens also to supply the flavor compounders most frequently used by juice vendors. In that case, there is very likely some overlap in "flavors". But the term "our flavors" in the above--at least in this scenario I'm describing--would have to be referring to the flavor components from which they (Flavorah) make the flavor blends they are selling.
And speaking of which, OMG that was really unclear. My brain is mush. I'm hangry, I'm punchy and I need a nap.
Maybe someone from Flavorah will come on here and talk to us and we can ask questions--only shorter and more to the point.. like yours, puppy
Anyway, I did what hazozita did and ordered using the reddit promo (better deal) and got to pick 14 15ml size bottles for 35- including shipping. Also, my tracking info appeared within hours of my order. It was such a good deal, I threw caution to the wind and ordered even though there are definitely baddies in flavors like their strawberry and coconut.
Oh, another odd thing--they mention diacetyl in their strawberry and coconut, but it's not mentioned as being in their vanilla custard flavor, which from the few reports so far, is supposed to be really good.
I've also ordered from them, so we'll have to have a Flavorah mixing thread here soon? Anyone else in?
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RocketPuppy
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Yeah... it's pretty unclear to me too. Reading on reddit I got the impression they were basically a smallish start-up compounder that bought the components for their flavorings from a big company (Mother Murphy's is what someone said). I had thought, based on whatever I read on reddit plus the presentation of their site (not super slick or corporate, not a whole lot of content), that they were a compounder like www.mamajsjuice.com or TFA--but somewhere in the middle between the two in terms of size of operation. That could be wrong... If it's not wrong, then the blurb on their About page -- the part where they say:
"Chances are if you have ever purchased a disposable ecigarette from one of the two leading brands, or vaped ejuice in the past year, then you have tasted some of our flavors."
Is confusing and possibly misleading, but technically accurate. Let's say they are a small-to-mid-size compounder and they get their components directly from a giant manufacturer which happens also to supply the flavor compounders most frequently used by juice vendors. In that case, there is very likely some overlap in "flavors". But the term "our flavors" in the above--at least in this scenario I'm describing--would have to be referring to the flavor components from which they (Flavorah) make the flavor blends they are selling.
And speaking of which, OMG that was really unclear. My brain is mush. I'm hangry, I'm punchy and I need a nap.
Maybe someone from Flavorah will come on here and talk to us and we can ask questions--only shorter and more to the point.. like yours, puppy
Anyway, I did what hazozita did and ordered using the reddit promo (better deal) and got to pick 14 15ml size bottles for 35- including shipping. Also, my tracking info appeared within hours of my order. It was such a good deal, I threw caution to the wind and ordered even though there are definitely baddies in flavors like their strawberry and coconut.
Oh, another odd thing--they mention diacetyl in their strawberry and coconut, but it's not mentioned as being in their vanilla custard flavor, which from the few reports so far, is supposed to be really good.
Mama J's Juice though explicitly states the company they sell. Flavorah's use of the words "our concentrates" is odd if they're not actually making their own flavors.
I believe he's referring to the special proprietary compounds Mama J's sells, not their FlavorArt flavor line. As he explained in his post (and was explained before that on reddit), Flavorah makes their own flavoring concentrates using the underlying individual flavor component chemical compounds obtained from Mother Murphy's, one of the biggest manufacturers of these compounds used by all flavor suppliers and juice companies who custom blend their own concentrates.
As I'm sure you know, since you're well regarded for your mixes here, a flavoring company's flavor is a complex blend of multiple flavor chemicals, which they usually don't create via in-house organic chemistry but rather combine in a unique proprietary recipe from constituent parts to make a final product which they sell, or blend into e-juice. That's what he meant by that.
Insta-edit: To clarify, as I already stated in my response to him, I agree it's a little unclear that they're implying "their flavors" in big-name ejuice are the constituent molecules from Mother Murphy's to blend their flavor concentrates, not their concentrates as finished products, but they're not being deceptive about it or hiding that either, just writing to market their products in a clever way.
That may be the case too, I don't think it's a crucial distinction for the explanation I was trying to give but you're right that's probably more likely based on the industrial side of the process as I'm familiar with it.
RocketPuppy
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Thank you for this explaining. For some reason, I was solely thinking about their rebottled FA flavors. I'm a dunce.
I only wish I was regarded for something as cool, but thank you =)
Got my order in today. Very nice packaging -- each bottle was in a heat-sealed pouch so in case one broke due to the wonderful handling of the USPS, the spill would be contained. As is was, nothing was harmed in transit (although the USPS took an extra two days to get it to me). The substitutions I asked for were done correctly.
Will try them out soon (hopefully this weekend), so I can't give any feedback as to the flavor quality as of yet. I did open up several of the bottles for a sniff test -- very nice aroma on all of them. Even the coffee smelled pretty good, which was a surprise since coffee flavors often smell rather rank in the bottle.
Will try them out soon (hopefully this weekend), so I can't give any feedback as to the flavor quality as of yet. I did open up several of the bottles for a sniff test -- very nice aroma on all of them. Even the coffee smelled pretty good, which was a surprise since coffee flavors often smell rather rank in the bottle.
pretty excited for some of us to start playing with these! Mine's *supposed* to come tomorrow. If you come up with anything good, start a Flavorah thread rather than posting an individual recipe, so we can keep these together for those of us who try them!
Hey! This is Brendan at Flavorah (Shoreline is my handle) Thanks Zanaspus for opening this thread and hazozita, Lirruping and RocketPuppy for throwing all those questions out there. I’ll do my best to answer them all and give you an idea of who/what we are about! This might be a long post, so I will try to make it as organized as possible so that you can learn what you want.
The first question, where do our flavors come from
Our flavors are manufactured and blended by an industrial food manufacturer that has been around for three generations. The flavor lab is inspected by the USDA and adheres to all of the highest standards you would expect from a company selling industrial quantities of flavoring.
I'll explain how I got started with Flavorah
Flavorah was started in 2013, but did not launch until 2015. It started when I was stationed in Quantico Virginia with the Marine Corps. Initially I learned about vaping by purchasing ecigs and giving them to friends in the Marine Corps. They loved them (mostly clones and refillable cartomizers) and I had a hard time getting them back.
It was the perfect blending of events when I was hanging out with a friend talking about business. Turns out his family business was manufacturing flavoring.
When I started learning about DIY ejuice, there were people on several forums trying out all kinds of things in order to flavor their ejuice. There were not a lot of good vendors, and some people would get their PG from crazy places like Walgreens or Walmart where PG was sold as a laxative. Homemade extractions or flavor & scent drops bought at the grocery store were acceptable starting points for experiments some people were posting online...it seemed like the best options for new flavors was to guess and try and post online what you learned.
After discovering and being fascinated by the underground movement of vaping, I put 2&2 together with my friend who manufactured flavors, and decided to start something to serve the vaping community with flavoring after I was released from active duty.
Last year we attended the NATO Tobacco show in Las Vegas to get a better sense of the needs. Everyone at the show was talking about immanent FDA regulations for ejuice and vaping, plus potential taxes and regulations. Surprisingly there was no DIY ejuice flavoring for sale. The closest thing was Tasty Puff for dripping on your tobacco or gonja.
What they did have a lot of at the Vegas show, however, was Roll-Your-Own tobacco. It seemed to me at the time that DIY Ejuice could end up growing in the future due to taxes and regulations in the same way as Roll-your-Own tobacco has.
When I moved home to Washington State in 2014, the legislature tried to pass a bill taxing ejuice and hardware 95%. I attended the protest rally in Olympia our state capitol with a friend who had recently quit smoking by switching over to vaping. That week I also contacted a guy I knew in the state legislature who was sponsoring the bill to give him my 2cents. Fortunately the bill was defeated, but the threat to vaping was really obvious.
At that point I started the process of importing a filling, plugging and capping machine so that I could start serving the DIY community with concentrated flavoring. While waiting for it to arrive, I secured 2,400 feet of commercial space to set up our production and fulfillment operation.
What Flavorah does
We make flavoring from the ground up for vapor. Our flavors are mixed at a lab in batches, then we break the batches into the 15ml bottles and larger jug sizes based on what our customers need. When somebody orders more than we have on hand, then a new batch is made for them, anywhere from gallons to barrels.
Since our product has been designed from the ground up for vaping, it tends to work really well for both new and experienced DIYers, since the flavor notes are already on target. As you probably know from being part of this forum, a lot of the flavors that people have ended up using for DIY over the last couple years were never intended for ejuice, but rather for candy/beverages/baking/perfume etc.
Flavorah’s approach for DIY ejuice
As a small business, I really want us to start off with excellent customer service, and maintain that responsiveness. That means I do not want to grow faster than we can manage.
To accomplish that, we have started with one size offering (15ml), and 21 flavors that vape REALLY well. I want people to try our stuff and immediately say, “'holy cow,' this is amazing!"
There are some critical challenges, like packaging and shipping, as we grow and I really want to avoid getting “Flamed” by an unhappy member of the community.
I want you to know that we are here to serve the DIY community. If you EVER order from us and receive a leaking bottle, the wrong flavor, or something that you did not want, then contact me and we will send a replacement immediately. Also, feedback about what flavors you want to see in the future is really helpful. I am making a list right now as a matter of fact
The first question, where do our flavors come from
Our flavors are manufactured and blended by an industrial food manufacturer that has been around for three generations. The flavor lab is inspected by the USDA and adheres to all of the highest standards you would expect from a company selling industrial quantities of flavoring.
I'll explain how I got started with Flavorah
Flavorah was started in 2013, but did not launch until 2015. It started when I was stationed in Quantico Virginia with the Marine Corps. Initially I learned about vaping by purchasing ecigs and giving them to friends in the Marine Corps. They loved them (mostly clones and refillable cartomizers) and I had a hard time getting them back.
It was the perfect blending of events when I was hanging out with a friend talking about business. Turns out his family business was manufacturing flavoring.
When I started learning about DIY ejuice, there were people on several forums trying out all kinds of things in order to flavor their ejuice. There were not a lot of good vendors, and some people would get their PG from crazy places like Walgreens or Walmart where PG was sold as a laxative. Homemade extractions or flavor & scent drops bought at the grocery store were acceptable starting points for experiments some people were posting online...it seemed like the best options for new flavors was to guess and try and post online what you learned.
After discovering and being fascinated by the underground movement of vaping, I put 2&2 together with my friend who manufactured flavors, and decided to start something to serve the vaping community with flavoring after I was released from active duty.
Last year we attended the NATO Tobacco show in Las Vegas to get a better sense of the needs. Everyone at the show was talking about immanent FDA regulations for ejuice and vaping, plus potential taxes and regulations. Surprisingly there was no DIY ejuice flavoring for sale. The closest thing was Tasty Puff for dripping on your tobacco or gonja.
What they did have a lot of at the Vegas show, however, was Roll-Your-Own tobacco. It seemed to me at the time that DIY Ejuice could end up growing in the future due to taxes and regulations in the same way as Roll-your-Own tobacco has.
When I moved home to Washington State in 2014, the legislature tried to pass a bill taxing ejuice and hardware 95%. I attended the protest rally in Olympia our state capitol with a friend who had recently quit smoking by switching over to vaping. That week I also contacted a guy I knew in the state legislature who was sponsoring the bill to give him my 2cents. Fortunately the bill was defeated, but the threat to vaping was really obvious.
At that point I started the process of importing a filling, plugging and capping machine so that I could start serving the DIY community with concentrated flavoring. While waiting for it to arrive, I secured 2,400 feet of commercial space to set up our production and fulfillment operation.
What Flavorah does
We make flavoring from the ground up for vapor. Our flavors are mixed at a lab in batches, then we break the batches into the 15ml bottles and larger jug sizes based on what our customers need. When somebody orders more than we have on hand, then a new batch is made for them, anywhere from gallons to barrels.
Since our product has been designed from the ground up for vaping, it tends to work really well for both new and experienced DIYers, since the flavor notes are already on target. As you probably know from being part of this forum, a lot of the flavors that people have ended up using for DIY over the last couple years were never intended for ejuice, but rather for candy/beverages/baking/perfume etc.
Flavorah’s approach for DIY ejuice
As a small business, I really want us to start off with excellent customer service, and maintain that responsiveness. That means I do not want to grow faster than we can manage.
To accomplish that, we have started with one size offering (15ml), and 21 flavors that vape REALLY well. I want people to try our stuff and immediately say, “'holy cow,' this is amazing!"
There are some critical challenges, like packaging and shipping, as we grow and I really want to avoid getting “Flamed” by an unhappy member of the community.
I want you to know that we are here to serve the DIY community. If you EVER order from us and receive a leaking bottle, the wrong flavor, or something that you did not want, then contact me and we will send a replacement immediately. Also, feedback about what flavors you want to see in the future is really helpful. I am making a list right now as a matter of fact
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Hey! This is Brendan at Flavorah (Shoreline is my handle) Thanks Zanaspus for opening this thread and hazozita, Lirruping and RocketPuppy for throwing all those questions out there. I’ll do my best to answer them all and give you an idea of who/what we are about! This might be a long post, so I will try to make it as organized as possible so that you can learn what you want.
The first question, where do our flavors come from
Lirruping was correctl, all of our flavors are manufactured and blended by Mother Murphy’s in Greensboro North Carolina. I understand how our “About Us” page caused some confusion, especially the line “Chances are if you have ever purchased a disposable ecigarette from one of the two leading brands, or vaped ejuice in the past year, then you have tasted some of our flavors.”
Mother Murphy’s (MM’s) is an industrial flavor manufacturer that has been around for three generations. They sell flavoring by the barrel for all sorts of uses like food, beverages, tobacco, and in the last several years ejuice. For a sense of scale, their minimum quantity of concentrated flavoring is enough to flavor about 80 gallons of ejuice. They are still family owned and operated.
Mother Murphy’s Lab is inspected by the USDA and adheres to all of the highest standards you would expect from a company selling industrial quantities of flavoring. Check out their website if you are curious, www.mothermurphys.com.
Perhaps the best explanation of Flavorah as a business is that we are a distributor and packager of MM flavorings for DIY ejuice: We are taking the materials manufactured by a big company, and packaging and marketing them for a relatively small segment of their market.
Unfortunately I do not have permission to release who else uses Mother Murphy's in the vaping world, but I will point out that 1) they (MM’s) are located in the heart of tobacco country and have a flavor room there for the industry to use 2) they make juice for several of the largest disposable ecig manufacturers and ejuice distributors, and 3) they typically sell ejuice and flavorings by the barrel (a barrel contains over 200,000ml).
I'll explain how I got started with Flavorah
Flavorah was started in 2013, but did not launch until 2015. If it was not for one of my friends being a Murphy, I would not have been able to start Flavorah as a business.
Here is the story, In Spring of 2013, I was stationed in Quantico Virginia with the Marine Corps. I was hanging out with a friend talking about business opportunities when I got off active duty. He worked for his family business selling flavoring and I thought there ought to be a market for selling smaller quantities of those flavorings online too. I started doing research into the market for retail-size quantities of artificial flavor. This is when I discovered vaping. Initially I learned about vaping by purchasing ecigs and giving them to friends in the Marine Corps. They loved them (mostly clones and refillable cartomizers) and I had a hard time getting them back.
When I started learning about DIY ejuice, there were people on several forums trying out all kinds of things in order to flavor their ejuice. There were not a lot of good vendors, and some people would get their PG from crazy places like Walgreens or Walmart where PG was sold as a laxative. Homemade extractions or flavor & scent drops bought at the grocery store were acceptable starting points for experiments some people were posting online...it seemed like the best options for new flavors was to guess and try and post online what you learned.
After discovering and being fascinated by the underground movement of vaping, I put 2&2 together with my friend who had the flavors, and decided to start something to serve the vaping community with flavoring after I was released from active duty.
Last year I attended the NATO Tobacco show in Las Vegas with some of the guys from MM’s in order to get a lay of the land. Everyone at the show was talking about immanent FDA regulations for ejuice and vaping, plus potential taxes and regulations. Surprisingly there was no DIY ejuice flavoring for sale. The closest thing was Tasty Puff for dripping on your tobacco or gonja.
What they did have a lot of at the Vegas show, however, was Roll-Your-Own tobacco. It seemed to me at the time that DIY Ejuice could end up growing in the future due to taxes and regulations in the same way as Roll-your-Own tobacco has.
When I moved home to Washington State in 2014, the legislature tried to pass a bill taxing ejuice and hardware 95%. I attended the protest rally in Olympia our state capitol with a friend who had recently quit smoking by switching over to vaping. That week I also contacted a guy I knew in the state legislature who was sponsoring the bill to give him my 2cents. Fortunately the bill was defeated, but the threat to vaping was really obvious.
At that point I started the process of importing a filling, plugging and capping machine so that I could start serving the DIY community with concentrated flavoring. While waiting for it to arrive, I secured 2,400 feet of commercial space to set up our production and fulfillment operation.
What Flavorah does
Our flavors are mixed at MM’s lab. We get the large container from them and use a pharma type peristaltic pump on our machine in Seattle to draw the flavoring from its container and pump the measured amount into the 15ml bottle we use for packaging. From there it gets the plastic plug and cap put on. Then the label is applied separately by a different automatic machine. I’ll try to post a video of this process soon; it reminds me of the TV Series, “How its made.”
As a startup, we are essentially entering the market after the proverbial “dust has settled” and designing our product from the ground up for vaping. As you probably know from being part of this forum, a lot of the flavors that people have ended up using for DIY over the last couple years were never intended for ejuice, but because MM is willing to work with us, and others in the vaping market we are getting better and better results.
For instance, I have been working directly with MM’s to give Flavorah an edge when dealing with Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, and Acetoin. They have done the research and we (Flavorah) are hoping to eliminate these completely from some of our flavors this year, and to add new flavors that are D/A/AP free for vapor.
Flavorah’s approach for DIY ejuice
As a small business, I really want us to start off with excellent customer service, and maintain that responsiveness. That means I do not want to grow faster than we can manage.
To accomplish that, we have started with one size offering (15ml), and 21 flavors that vape REALLY well. I want people to try our stuff and immediately say, “'holy cow,' this is amazing!"
There are some critical challenges, like packaging and shipping, as we grow and I really want to avoid getting “Flamed” by an unhappy member of the community.
I want you to know that we are here to serve the DIY community. If you EVER order from us and receive a leaking bottle, the wrong flavor, or something that you did not want, then contact me and we will send a replacement immediately. Also, feedback about what flavors you want to see in the future is really helpful. I am making a list right now as a matter of fact
In regards to shipping, since our flavors are undiluted, they are often also a Category III hazmat (flammable) liquid. We are able to ship them with the USPS under a small quantity exemption for plastic bottles0ml. This is also the reason why we cannot ship to Europe without paying $100/parcel right now.
Ideas for Deals
People are aware of the Flavorah Reddit promo we did. That was after after reaching out to Botboy and KirkT on the subreddit for ideas several weeks ahead of time. What do people want for a VU promo? Currently it is VUG which gives you free samples, but I am open to your ideas…
Hey Brendan, thanks for all this info!
When I saw the VU deal (afer having seen the reddit one), the reddit one seemed a lot better... at least at first glance. Maybe I'm missing something? So, to your request for Ideas for Deals--off the top of my head--I'd say it would be great if you kept active the free sample promo you offered to VU and also officially extended the reddit deal (two multi-packs for 35- shipped) to VU as well.
I see you have a link to the specifics of the reddit deal above, but could you please explain how the VU promo works? Or what you get with it, exactly? Or just point to a link where it is explained. (Sorry if this is obvious--it wasn't immediately clear to me).
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Oh, I also have a question about what you mean when you say Flavorah flavors are "undiluted". Does this simply mean that they are not diluted any further than when you receive them from Mother Murphy's? That you buy in bulk and redistribute just as you receive them with the only change being repackaging? As far as I understand (although there has been speculation that some companies water down their flavors) this is what many other flavor redistributors claim to do.
Or by "undiluted" do you mean something else--like, for example, that your flavors are more concentrated because they are not in any kind of carrier base?
Or by "undiluted" do you mean something else--like, for example, that your flavors are more concentrated because they are not in any kind of carrier base?
RocketPuppy
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@Shoreline - a couple questions.
I understand that MM manufactures and blends your flavors, but do they make certain flavors specifically and solely for Flavorah?
Flavorah points customers to the MSDS to validate that the product is Diacetyl free. The MSDS sheets that are tested and produced in house do not have a third party agency verifying that the chemical analysis is factual. MSDS do not need to report chemicals lower than 1%, but that does not guarantee the product is free of harmful chemicals. MSDS sheets are generally for those who work with the product. A chemical present in quantities less than 1% might not negatively affect someone who works or handles it, but because we're inhaling it, it may be harmful. Without proper verification, how can customers be assured that the products are as safe as Flavorah claims?
I understand that MM manufactures and blends your flavors, but do they make certain flavors specifically and solely for Flavorah?
Flavorah points customers to the MSDS to validate that the product is Diacetyl free. The MSDS sheets that are tested and produced in house do not have a third party agency verifying that the chemical analysis is factual. MSDS do not need to report chemicals lower than 1%, but that does not guarantee the product is free of harmful chemicals. MSDS sheets are generally for those who work with the product. A chemical present in quantities less than 1% might not negatively affect someone who works or handles it, but because we're inhaling it, it may be harmful. Without proper verification, how can customers be assured that the products are as safe as Flavorah claims?
Had the opportunity to try out the sample pack. Mixed 10ml samplers of each at 5% (except for the coffee and tobaccos, which I did at 3% and 2% respectively). 80/20 VG/PG mix, zero nic. Good amount of shaking but no steeping.
Overall, I’m very impressed with many of the fruits. The strawberry, peach, cantaloupe and green apple are excellent, and I’ll be reordering them when I run out. While the price per ml is higher than some other flavorings, I’m getting good flavor at lower concentration than with other brands, so the cost per use is the same or less.
I want to wait on passing final judgement on the others until they’ve had a change to steep. At present, most were OK, but nothing special. The only ones that elicited a yuck were the black cherry and, to a lesser extent, coconut. Then again, I’ve had the same reaction to every black cherry I’ve tried so far, so I can’t hold that against Flavorah.
Didn’t try the tobaccos yet, but I think they are going to be very mild based on the scent. My favorite tobaccos are from FA, since I like a pretty bold taste. The Flavorah ones will probably be best in RY4 or similar mixes where the tobacco is just along for the ride.
Quick notes on the flavors I tried are below. Look forward to hearing what others think of these flavors.
Overall, I’m very impressed with many of the fruits. The strawberry, peach, cantaloupe and green apple are excellent, and I’ll be reordering them when I run out. While the price per ml is higher than some other flavorings, I’m getting good flavor at lower concentration than with other brands, so the cost per use is the same or less.
I want to wait on passing final judgement on the others until they’ve had a change to steep. At present, most were OK, but nothing special. The only ones that elicited a yuck were the black cherry and, to a lesser extent, coconut. Then again, I’ve had the same reaction to every black cherry I’ve tried so far, so I can’t hold that against Flavorah.
Didn’t try the tobaccos yet, but I think they are going to be very mild based on the scent. My favorite tobaccos are from FA, since I like a pretty bold taste. The Flavorah ones will probably be best in RY4 or similar mixes where the tobacco is just along for the ride.
Quick notes on the flavors I tried are below. Look forward to hearing what others think of these flavors.
Strawberry – very nice, fresh strawberry taste. Sweet, but not candy-like. It’s not quite as good as TFA Ripe Strawberry, but a very close second.
Peach – another fresh tasting flavor. Sweet enough to be pleasant without crossing into candy territory. I see this pairing very nicely with some mild tobaccos.
Coffee – I did this at 3% since coffee is usually so strong, but it needs more. But, the flavor that was there was good. Not at all gacky (if that makes sense) like most of the TFA coffees, but lacks the depth of FA coffees. Could be good when you want to add some measure of coffee to a juice but don’t want the coffee front and center. I want to see how this is after some steep time.
Blueberry muffin – not getting much, if any, muffin in this, and the blueberry is rather muted as well. I’m getting fruit taste, but it’s not shouting blueberry. So-so.
Cantaloupe – really like this. Good flavor that really comes through without any odd aftertaste like I get with TFA and FW. This is good enough to stand on it’s own in the 6% to 8% range, or will go well with a lot of other fruits.
Watermelon – pretty good. Crosses a bit into candy territory, but still stays more on the “fresh” side than other watermelon’s I’ve used. I’m thinking this would be great with some banana.
Orange citrus – decent, but more of a candy flavor than a real citrus flavor. Not all that appealing on its own, but I can see it working well in the background in some mixes.
Green apple – excellent. The apple flavor that comes through very well, and seems to have a touch of spice to it in addition to the apple. This should work well with a lot of my tobaccos, and I think it will be great in apple bakery mixes.
Black cherry – not good. Then again, I’ve yet to find a good cherry that doesn’t taste like Nyqill. Lots of alcohol taste to this. Clearly needs some steep time. Hoping it gets better since the flavoring smells so good in the bottle.
Coconut – like the black cherry, I’m getting an alcohol taste. Needs some steep time before I can determine how it’s really going to taste. Right now, it’s much less appealing than other coconut flavors I’ve used.
Vanilla custard – OK, but nothing special. My favorite custard remains Capella’s. This has decent flavor, but lacks depth and creaminess.
Tropical punch – Not bad, but not all that distinctive. I’m getting a decent fruity taste, but no one flavor stands out much. A meh type of flavor.
Peach – another fresh tasting flavor. Sweet enough to be pleasant without crossing into candy territory. I see this pairing very nicely with some mild tobaccos.
Coffee – I did this at 3% since coffee is usually so strong, but it needs more. But, the flavor that was there was good. Not at all gacky (if that makes sense) like most of the TFA coffees, but lacks the depth of FA coffees. Could be good when you want to add some measure of coffee to a juice but don’t want the coffee front and center. I want to see how this is after some steep time.
Blueberry muffin – not getting much, if any, muffin in this, and the blueberry is rather muted as well. I’m getting fruit taste, but it’s not shouting blueberry. So-so.
Cantaloupe – really like this. Good flavor that really comes through without any odd aftertaste like I get with TFA and FW. This is good enough to stand on it’s own in the 6% to 8% range, or will go well with a lot of other fruits.
Watermelon – pretty good. Crosses a bit into candy territory, but still stays more on the “fresh” side than other watermelon’s I’ve used. I’m thinking this would be great with some banana.
Orange citrus – decent, but more of a candy flavor than a real citrus flavor. Not all that appealing on its own, but I can see it working well in the background in some mixes.
Green apple – excellent. The apple flavor that comes through very well, and seems to have a touch of spice to it in addition to the apple. This should work well with a lot of my tobaccos, and I think it will be great in apple bakery mixes.
Black cherry – not good. Then again, I’ve yet to find a good cherry that doesn’t taste like Nyqill. Lots of alcohol taste to this. Clearly needs some steep time. Hoping it gets better since the flavoring smells so good in the bottle.
Coconut – like the black cherry, I’m getting an alcohol taste. Needs some steep time before I can determine how it’s really going to taste. Right now, it’s much less appealing than other coconut flavors I’ve used.
Vanilla custard – OK, but nothing special. My favorite custard remains Capella’s. This has decent flavor, but lacks depth and creaminess.
Tropical punch – Not bad, but not all that distinctive. I’m getting a decent fruity taste, but no one flavor stands out much. A meh type of flavor.
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Thanks @misswish and @RocketPuppy. It's always fun to try new flavors, and I think Flavorah is off to a pretty good start. It will be interesting to see what flavors they roll out in the future.
Hey guys, I just posted my experience with ordering from Flavorah, initial flavor impressions, and more info here. I also included a recipe, for fun! As I said there, I hope to kick off a Flavorah mixing recipe thread here sometime soon.
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I wish Shoreline would respond.
I'll second that. A number of good questions have been posed.
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They haven't answered anything. I have a feeling they use tfa/fa in their titles to lure customers to their products.
@Artemis - Have you ever eBayed? It's just ghetto eBay SEO, standard practice for search hits. They explained exactly where their flavorings come from and how they're made already right here in this thread. They've nothing to do with TFA/FA other than they'd be relevant to people searching for those brands. Don't overthink this.
@lirruping, their flavors are undiluted in the sense that they are highly-concentrated flavoring compounds, to be used @2-5% in juice. This is in contrast to other manufacturers like TFA/CAP/FW whose less-concentrated flavors often require 10-15% to get comparable results. They're not like Medicine Flower extracts, in that they're still suspended in a carrier base (PG), and they're flavoring chemicals like FA and the rest, as opposed to natural essences like NF or MF. Hope that clears things up for you.
@RocketPuppy your best bet for an answer to this question is e-mailing Brendan at [email protected] -- his responses when I did that were lightning-fast. He doesn't check reddit/VU regularly like we do, so this is the best way of getting ahold of him in a timely manner. I'm sure he'd be glad to clarify that question. I assume your question is intended to draw a comparison to FA, correct? To my knowledge, they're the only company who has bothered to do any comprehensive testing to demonstrate the safety of their flavoring line in vaporization, which is why they're my go to flavor supplier (doesn't hurt that their stuff is awesomely accurate and as concentrated as Flavorah's either).
@lirruping, their flavors are undiluted in the sense that they are highly-concentrated flavoring compounds, to be used @2-5% in juice. This is in contrast to other manufacturers like TFA/CAP/FW whose less-concentrated flavors often require 10-15% to get comparable results. They're not like Medicine Flower extracts, in that they're still suspended in a carrier base (PG), and they're flavoring chemicals like FA and the rest, as opposed to natural essences like NF or MF. Hope that clears things up for you.
@RocketPuppy your best bet for an answer to this question is e-mailing Brendan at [email protected] -- his responses when I did that were lightning-fast. He doesn't check reddit/VU regularly like we do, so this is the best way of getting ahold of him in a timely manner. I'm sure he'd be glad to clarify that question. I assume your question is intended to draw a comparison to FA, correct? To my knowledge, they're the only company who has bothered to do any comprehensive testing to demonstrate the safety of their flavoring line in vaporization, which is why they're my go to flavor supplier (doesn't hurt that their stuff is awesomely accurate and as concentrated as Flavorah's either).
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They didn't say how their flavors are made beyond saying that the company makes large batches of flavors.
I submitted my post too early by acident and you quoted me before I updated it, but I'll address this further. I guess I'm not sure what exactly you're asking about? Their flavors are made exactly how other manufacturers like TFA and FA and everyone else makes them -- aroma compounds are synthesized (technically, the majority are derived from bacterial metabolism products, the so-called "Natural Flavors") and then giant flavoring houses like Givaudan or Mother Murphy's design custom aromas based on their array of trademarked aromas. These chemicals, highly secretive and protected trademarked IP, are guarded insanely closely by their owners, which is why many flavor companies (looking at you, LA, and to some degree, CAP) are so reluctant to submit to any kind of testing or information sharing. Regardless, the flavoring compounds are blended to create the desired impressions for the flavors requested by Flavorah, and shipped in bulk. From there, they're bottled and so forth as described. I'm not sure which aspect of the flavoring industry or process you want more information on, exactly, but he explained and answered more than i was expecting him to, honestly, knowing the industry as I do. What else are you looking to know about 'how they're made'?
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Does this mean there wasn't any e-liquid flavoring at the show or generally speaking? Flavoring for e-liquid has been around and available online for longer than a year.
From what I've found, MM does not make a separate line for Flavorah. The same flavors that are found in other juices on the market are the same ones that Flavorah sells.
A lot of emphasis is placed on machinery that accurately and quickly fills bottles with flavors. I'm not sure what this has to do with the qualify and goodness of the flavors.
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I'm not asking how they're made but thank you. I was just responding that they didn't address this.
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@returnity - We both answer too quickly for each other =) Your post now makes more sense.
From the Flavorah website safety page: http://www.flavorah.com/about/safety/
Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl & Diacetyl
Our policy is that we do not add any diacetyl to our flavors. However, there is naturally occurring diacetyl in several of our flavors: strawberry, coffee, coconut and cantaloupe.
We are working on new formulas which will remove traces of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl from our flavors as well. Currently our Creme de Menthe, Peach and Vanilla Custard flavors contain traces of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl.
Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl & Diacetyl
Our policy is that we do not add any diacetyl to our flavors. However, there is naturally occurring diacetyl in several of our flavors: strawberry, coffee, coconut and cantaloupe.
We are working on new formulas which will remove traces of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl from our flavors as well. Currently our Creme de Menthe, Peach and Vanilla Custard flavors contain traces of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl.
Hello,
This is Brendan again. @returnity was right that I have not been on this thread since my last post, but thanks to @lirruping’s PM for getting me off my clapton coil, and back to VU to answer these questions.
I am here to participate in the VU community sorry for the lag.
@RocketPuppy, thanks for all of the great technical questions. I will answer them as completely and clearly as I can in this post, and tell you as best I can when I do not know the answer.
First, the intellectual property behind flavorings is extremely guarded, as @returnity mentioned, and this is, I believe, primarily to keep things from other flavor houses and would -be competition rather than to hide the ball from the public or consumers.
There is an industry trade association that is central to the flavor industry called FEMA that is a good resource for a lot of the research and practices followed by the flavoring industry. They act as a third party between the needs of manufacturers for confidentiality and the needs of regulators for transparency.
Of particular interest is the FEMA GRAS list. This is the list of compounds accepted to be used to make food flavorings, but not necessarily compounds which are safe for inhalation.
Many of the questions you are asking, @RocketPuppy, cut to the heart of vaping and the place that we are at with regards to safety and transparency. I cannot claim that everything we (Flavorah) sell is safe with perfect certainty. What I can do is make sure that it is on the front edge of what we know about the safety of flavorings and inhalation. This knowledge is growing, and thanks to investment and research, improving.
Ecig toxicology testing is similar to the testing some tobacco companies use for analyzing their products when smoked. In the future there may be a list of compounds that are considered "GRAS" for vapor that is based of this list, so I believe it is important for us (Flavorah) to be ahead of the curve when it comes to concentrated ejuice flavors and future regulations.
For a little context, it is important to remember that the component ingredients of flavorings are considered a legal trade secret. The FDA has established a process for certifying the ingredients as compliant with their regulations without requiring the manufacture to publicly disclose exactly which ingredients the flavoring contains (hence the FEMA GRAS List). As long as the FDA has verified that the components are “GRAS” for its intended use, then they are compliant.
If a new FDA regulatory regime comes out requiring similarly certified ingredients for vapor products like they are for food, we will be in a position to meet those standards with Flavorah flavorings.
Currently, each flavor we sell is registered by our manufacture with the FDA for use in food, and their compliance is overseen by the FDA and other third party inspections. This process is in place for all food grade flavorings (which is all flavorah flavorings) but in the future could include a new category of vapor flavorings.
Eventually the FDA may have a review process for ejuice producers, possibly requiring them to disclose their flavor components and other ingredients for inspection or tracing. There would have to be a new “GRAS” list for vapor products. The problem becomes, as a small batch ejuice maker in the future, what are the sources of your primary components? If your flavors are compounded from many different sources, made from unregulated extractions, or difficult to trace, it could be more difficult to achieve compliance in the future if the FDA steps in.
Hopefully, Flavorah is positioned to help DIY and Small batch producers survive future regulations too.
With a nod to @DeadShort, it will be important for member of the DIY community who are also small batch ejuice producers to reduce the potential cost of compliance with future FDA regulation. We don’t know exactly how this will end up working because I cannot divine what the FDA might do, but our business is to serve people making ejuice, whether they are making it for themselves or for the local vape shops and online community that love their recipes and carry their product line.
We are staying ahead of this trend by working with our manufacturing to utilize compounds that we believe may be considered GRAS in future vapor regulations.
@hazozita, Thanks for your objective review of our flavors! There will be more coming out soon.
@RocketPuppy The machinery that we use is specialized and it is truly fun to operate, but I did not mean to overemphasize it’s description. The goodness of the flavors will speak for itself.
If you use the code “VUG” in the “notes to seller” section of checkout on our website, we’ll put in 4 free samples in your order. If you have any trouble, just send me an email or PM.
@lirruping, your questions about dilution is appreciated. Being highly concentrated is one of the qualities that we consider core to the flavorah line of ejuice flavoring.
Since Flavorah is more highly concentrated, (instead of diluted as is the case for many candy, beverage and baking flavors people use in vapor) there are several benefits. 1) our customers get more flavoring. 2) we have to deal with more restrictions on shipping than some other flavor sellers. 3) Our MSDS is going to show more about the true hazards of concentrated flavoring (flammable, irritant, etc.) whereas a diluted flavor will be more benign because the proportion of inert PG or other carrier base is much higher.
This is Brendan again. @returnity was right that I have not been on this thread since my last post, but thanks to @lirruping’s PM for getting me off my clapton coil, and back to VU to answer these questions.
I am here to participate in the VU community
sorry for the lag.@RocketPuppy, thanks for all of the great technical questions. I will answer them as completely and clearly as I can in this post, and tell you as best I can when I do not know the answer.
First, the intellectual property behind flavorings is extremely guarded, as @returnity mentioned, and this is, I believe, primarily to keep things from other flavor houses and would -be competition rather than to hide the ball from the public or consumers.
There is an industry trade association that is central to the flavor industry called FEMA that is a good resource for a lot of the research and practices followed by the flavoring industry. They act as a third party between the needs of manufacturers for confidentiality and the needs of regulators for transparency.
Of particular interest is the FEMA GRAS list. This is the list of compounds accepted to be used to make food flavorings, but not necessarily compounds which are safe for inhalation.
Many of the questions you are asking, @RocketPuppy, cut to the heart of vaping and the place that we are at with regards to safety and transparency. I cannot claim that everything we (Flavorah) sell is safe with perfect certainty. What I can do is make sure that it is on the front edge of what we know about the safety of flavorings and inhalation. This knowledge is growing, and thanks to investment and research, improving.
Ecig toxicology testing is similar to the testing some tobacco companies use for analyzing their products when smoked. In the future there may be a list of compounds that are considered "GRAS" for vapor that is based of this list, so I believe it is important for us (Flavorah) to be ahead of the curve when it comes to concentrated ejuice flavors and future regulations.
For a little context, it is important to remember that the component ingredients of flavorings are considered a legal trade secret. The FDA has established a process for certifying the ingredients as compliant with their regulations without requiring the manufacture to publicly disclose exactly which ingredients the flavoring contains (hence the FEMA GRAS List). As long as the FDA has verified that the components are “GRAS” for its intended use, then they are compliant.
If a new FDA regulatory regime comes out requiring similarly certified ingredients for vapor products like they are for food, we will be in a position to meet those standards with Flavorah flavorings.
Currently, each flavor we sell is registered by our manufacture with the FDA for use in food, and their compliance is overseen by the FDA and other third party inspections. This process is in place for all food grade flavorings (which is all flavorah flavorings) but in the future could include a new category of vapor flavorings.
Eventually the FDA may have a review process for ejuice producers, possibly requiring them to disclose their flavor components and other ingredients for inspection or tracing. There would have to be a new “GRAS” list for vapor products. The problem becomes, as a small batch ejuice maker in the future, what are the sources of your primary components? If your flavors are compounded from many different sources, made from unregulated extractions, or difficult to trace, it could be more difficult to achieve compliance in the future if the FDA steps in.
Hopefully, Flavorah is positioned to help DIY and Small batch producers survive future regulations too.
With a nod to @DeadShort, it will be important for member of the DIY community who are also small batch ejuice producers to reduce the potential cost of compliance with future FDA regulation. We don’t know exactly how this will end up working because I cannot divine what the FDA might do, but our business is to serve people making ejuice, whether they are making it for themselves or for the local vape shops and online community that love their recipes and carry their product line.
We are staying ahead of this trend by working with our manufacturing to utilize compounds that we believe may be considered GRAS in future vapor regulations.
@hazozita, Thanks for your objective review of our flavors! There will be more coming out soon.
@RocketPuppy The machinery that we use is specialized and it is truly fun to operate, but I did not mean to overemphasize it’s description. The goodness of the flavors will speak for itself.
If you use the code “VUG” in the “notes to seller” section of checkout on our website, we’ll put in 4 free samples in your order. If you have any trouble, just send me an email or PM.
@lirruping, your questions about dilution is appreciated. Being highly concentrated is one of the qualities that we consider core to the flavorah line of ejuice flavoring.
Since Flavorah is more highly concentrated, (instead of diluted as is the case for many candy, beverage and baking flavors people use in vapor) there are several benefits. 1) our customers get more flavoring. 2) we have to deal with more restrictions on shipping than some other flavor sellers. 3) Our MSDS is going to show more about the true hazards of concentrated flavoring (flammable, irritant, etc.) whereas a diluted flavor will be more benign because the proportion of inert PG or other carrier base is much higher.
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Thank you @Shoreline - appreciate all the info! But, no good deed goes unpunished, so I'll toss out a few more questions for your consideration whenever you have the opportunity:
1. Do you have the ability to design or tweak a MM flavor to make the flavor profile be better suited for vaping?
2. Do you see Flavorah developing multi-flavor mixes in the future (as OneStop DIY has done with their OneStop Blends line)?
3. Long-term, do you expect to stay with offering just flavors, or are you looking to be a soup-to-nuts DIY vendor, offering high quality nic, VG, PG, additives, etc.?
1. Do you have the ability to design or tweak a MM flavor to make the flavor profile be better suited for vaping?
2. Do you see Flavorah developing multi-flavor mixes in the future (as OneStop DIY has done with their OneStop Blends line)?
3. Long-term, do you expect to stay with offering just flavors, or are you looking to be a soup-to-nuts DIY vendor, offering high quality nic, VG, PG, additives, etc.?
Sounds similar to yet another company.. interesting
Sounds similar to yet another company.. interesting
Hey Smoky
I don't know if you meant for this to be cryptic, in which case... I'm not that subtle sometimes and miss these things, so please forgive me, but...
which part sounds similar? What other company? How is it interesting?
First impressions:
My 14 different 15ml Flavorah flavors (35- with reddit promo) arrived the other day very promptly after ordering. Brendan/Shoreline has been responsive to my questions in email, and after having some unbelievably bad CS experiences lately I especially appreciate that.
I just looked closely at the contents of my package today and see that I got exactly what I ordered.
There were a couple of small glitches--two of the bottles had opened within their individually sealed packaging. The bottles are sealed with a perforated snap-cap that separates via perforation the first time the bottle is opened, and then each bottle is either vacuum sealed or shut into its own plastic pouch with a heat pen.
I have to say I wasn't happy to have around 5mls of the insanely potent "cool menthol" outside the bottle, but the nature of the packaging mostly contained the leak and made it much less of a disaster than it might have been. Also, the label that got completely soaked was hardly affected by it--the edges are a little frayed-looking, but it is still entirely readable. Even given the leak, I'd say the packaging/labeling is well-thought out and good quality.
FYI, There's another Flavorah thread going started by returnity.
My 14 different 15ml Flavorah flavors (35- with reddit promo) arrived the other day very promptly after ordering. Brendan/Shoreline has been responsive to my questions in email, and after having some unbelievably bad CS experiences lately I especially appreciate that.
I just looked closely at the contents of my package today and see that I got exactly what I ordered.
There were a couple of small glitches--two of the bottles had opened within their individually sealed packaging. The bottles are sealed with a perforated snap-cap that separates via perforation the first time the bottle is opened, and then each bottle is either vacuum sealed or shut into its own plastic pouch with a heat pen.
I have to say I wasn't happy to have around 5mls of the insanely potent "cool menthol" outside the bottle, but the nature of the packaging mostly contained the leak and made it much less of a disaster than it might have been. Also, the label that got completely soaked was hardly affected by it--the edges are a little frayed-looking, but it is still entirely readable. Even given the leak, I'd say the packaging/labeling is well-thought out and good quality.
FYI, There's another Flavorah thread going started by returnity.
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Their pink guava is also very good. It's a grapefruit type of taste for me rather than guava.
Hey Smoky
I don't know if you meant for this to be cryptic, in which case... I'm not that subtle sometimes and miss these things, so please forgive me, but...
which part sounds similar? What other company? How is it interesting?
There once was yet another company.. not so long ago
interesting, due to the nature of the business.. they are doing about the same as the other company I know of..
What I find interesting was that FEMA sent out that tired old warning to a number of flavoring companies just about the same time Flavorah got going, which appears to be backed by one of the larger flavoring manufacturers (MM) which might be doing research into inhalation of their flavors. Coincedence?