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I don't like the idea of clones.

EMusic

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Think about it:

If you invented a new, amazing product (or created a piece of artwork, like a painting) do you think it would be right for other people to steal your invention/artwork and put their name on it, making money off all of your work and time and everything? Would you be bothered? I think so!

Give credit where credit is due. Buy the real thing and show support to those who deserve it.
 

nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
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It's just the way it is.
American manufacturers make overpriced products and Chinese manufacturers copy them.
Is an American RDA really worth 100+$? not really.
If I want to check out a product without investing much I'll get the clone and then if I like it I'll get the authentic (or not).
Clones of authentic Chinese products are a lot less common because their price is fair to begin with.
 

EMusic

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That's fair enough (about buying a clone as a trial before possibly buying the authentic one). That way the real manufacturer still gets what they deserve for doing it first.

I just personally think that there is no substitute for the real thing, and a clone may not match up to the authentic product anyway, therefore possibly not giving the proper impression of the authentic product.
 

EMusic

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Oh and I'm not trying to change the views and/or behavior of anybody here. If you want clones then I'm not going to try to stop you. I'm just sharing my belief that it's worth paying what the original sells for. There is probably a good reason why they cost what they do.
 

shawn.hoefer

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Think about it:

If you invented a new, amazing product (or created a piece of artwork, like a painting) do you think it would be right for other people to steal your invention/artwork and put their name on it, making money off all of your work and time and everything? Would you be bothered? I think so!

Give credit where credit is due. Buy the real thing and show support to those who deserve it.
I'm an artisan broom maker by trade. No, really. I'll PM you my website if you don't believe me... Every item I make takes hours, is made by hand, and cannot be reproduced - no even by me - as there are too many natural variables. I sell my products between $8 and $200. My most popular broom is the kitchen broom which sells for $55.

I do not begrudge the Mexican or Chinese brooms or those that buy them.

Should my products sell for more? Yeah... probably... but I know I could never get what they're truly worth.

Could I cheapen my product to better compete? Yeah, but that really goes against my principles, so no...

Can my process be cloned? Yep... I teach dozens each year and most walk away with a better understanding of handicrafts and a strong desire to find some easier way to make a buck.

Manufacturers of "high-end" devices need to examine the market and decide if they want to be cloned. If they do jot want to be cloned, they need to keep their prices reasonable... I'll gladly pay $30-50 for a decent authentic. If, on the other hand, they are in it for the esteem... the ego boost... the quick buck... they can charge whatever they want and I'll either go without, or wait until it's cloned.

Also, does tucking a $40 chip into a $40 block of CNC machined wood make it worth $200 or more?

Put another way... with the idea that clones are purely bad... do you drive a $125000 exotic car, or a $20000 run-of-the-mill, or a $1000 beater?

Me, I have a beater and a run-of-the-mill Chevy.

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EMusic

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I'm a fine artist by trade and I would not mind anybody imitating my style. However somebody directly copying my work exactly and selling it would not be okay with me.

Considering the amount of effort involved in coming up with ideas for art or inventions and actually producing them makes me think that what they're selling it for is probably what it is really worth - American or not.
 

Reign

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shawn.hoefer

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I'm a fine artist by trade and I would not mind anybody imitating my style. However somebody directly copying my work exactly and selling it would not be okay with me.

Considering the amount of effort involved in coming up with ideas for art or inventions and actually producing them makes me think that what they're selling it for is probably what it is really worth - American or not.
There's a fine line between what we do as fine artists and those that come up with an idea than can be reproduced on the cheap with a CNC machine. My issue is with those that design an atomizer (yes, a lot of time and thought and prototyping went into it, I'm sure), but know that they can cover their costs with the sale of the first dozen at $100, but leave the price there for the prestige. If they would consider, instead, covering the cost out of the first 100 and push the cost down to $30, it would be a little easier to swallow.

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EMusic

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I'm not a very business-knowledgeable individual but I am good at looking at a product and figuring whether it's worth it's price. I think products should always sell for what they are worth and not a penny more (but also - not a penny less).

I sell my art at costs that are affordable to almost everybody because I want it to be affordable. However I will not sell it for less than I think it is worth for any reason.
 

EMusic

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Maybe I am just good at finding a middle ground for my art that is both affordable for the buyer and profitable for the seller/maker (me).
 

Nailz

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Mods maybe, but tanks, I am never going to spend over $50 for a tank, that I am very likely not going to be using 6 months down the road, because something new and better has come out.

Like I have a clone rose v3, I like the way it vapes, but the small holes to fill it, is a PITA, and even getting to the deck is not as simple as a lot of tanks, I wouldn't be happy if paid $200 for it, $200 for a topper is crazy in my eyes.
 

fq06

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I'm just sharing my belief that it's worth paying what the original sells for. There is probably a good reason why they cost what they do.

Sometimes there isn't a reason they cost what they do though.

In the past year or so there have been some very well priced authentics $50 down to $30 but $100+ for an atty thay may get replaced by something new and shiny in the coming months, not worth it to me. Even if I didn't replace it and it was my favorite ever I'm not sure some of the prices authentics go for are worth it.

Clones quality has also greatly improved in the past couple years with companies like SXK putting out attys that are 1:1 and damn near if not spot on the same quality as the authentic.

I guess if I knew an atty would be my very last purchase ever and the quality was head and shoulders above any clone, I could see spending $100-$200 but that will never happen :vapemail:

In the end, buy what you want. If an authentic makes you feel better or you think the quality really is worth the 1,000% markup, do it. :cheers:
 

EMusic

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Sometimes there isn't a reason they cost what they do though.

In the past year or so there have been some very well priced authentics $50 down to $30 but $100+ for an atty thay may get replaced by something new and shiny in the coming months, not worth it to me. Even if I didn't replace it and it was my favorite ever I'm not sure some of the prices authentics go for are worth it.

Clones quality has also greatly improved in the past couple years with companies like SXK putting out attys that are 1:1 and damn near if not spot on the same quality as the authentic.

I guess if I knew an atty would be my very last purchase ever and the quality was head and shoulders above any clone, I could see spending $100-$200 but that will never happen :vapemail:

In the end, buy what you want. If an authentic makes you feel better or you think the quality really is worth the 1,000% markup, do it. :cheers:

Great points. I agree that for me, it is simply worth paying for an authentic product (even if newer things come out shortly after buying my product). I also just like knowing that what I'm buying is exactly what I want 1:1.
 

AndriaD

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I bought a clone of the original Achilles RDA, for $25. Later, someone PIFed me a 2nd one, because I liked it so much, and he didn't. When all this FDA crap hit the blades back in May, I decided I would go ahead and buy an authentic Achilles II; the authentic original Achilles was no longer available, nor any clones of the original, and I liked the original so much, I figured it was worth it even at $98. I was wrong. The changes he made to the original, to make it more appealing to cloud chasers, make it absolute CRAP for those like me who prefer a very tight draw. Plus, it leaks, which the originals, even clones, never do.

If I could find an original authentic Achilles, I'd probably pay whatever was asked, up to $100. If I could find a clone of an original Achilles, I'd probably pay up to $30-$35, even though originally the clones were $24.99. But I can't find an original Achilles, authentic OR clone, ANYWHERE. And I sure as hell won't ever buy another authentic of any other atty, considering my gross disappointment in the authentic Achilles II. I'm not made out of money, and I expect VALUE for my dollars.

Andria
 

MagicJosh

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In my opinion, they charge to much for authentic products. I only buy Clones If I can only afford a clone. Clones are my favorite part of vaping, I hope they never go away.
 

nightshard

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In the past clones were crap or a luck of the draw, but lately they improved to the point that they are sometimes better then the original.
Got a few authentics and a few clone and tbh can't tell the difference in some cases.
Not to mention the some of the authentic Chinese manufacturers that we know and love today, like EHpro and Hcigar, started their way as clone manufacturers.
 
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AlbyKortoona

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Would you be willing to pay $1,500 instead of $150 for that "fine artisan", authentic dripping atomizer? If not, I reject your righteous condemnation of those who choose to pay $15 for a clone...
 

EMusic

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If I thought it was worth it and had the money, yes, I would.
 

EMusic

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And it isn't righteous condemnation. I already said I am not trying to change anybody's mind or behavior of when it comes to buying clones.
 

EMusic

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Let's put it this way: I wouldn't buy a cloned Ferrari, I would save up for the real one.
 

AlbyKortoona

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If I thought it was worth it and had the money, yes, I would.

That old saw "one born every minute" flashed into mind. But each to their own, if I could find a vehicle that performed as well at 10% of the cost (regardless of being "able to afford it") I really wouldn't give a shit if it had a prancing horse emblem on it. Some do, I have no problem with that, but I also would not look down my nose at those who have no pretentiousness.
 

Synphul

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I can see both sides of the argument. On the other hand, does that mean that the first person to make the basic rebuildable atomizer own the patent to the whole shit and shebang? This isn't a slam against any artists out there, it's looking at it objectively. You have a 510 connection that's become pretty much agreed upon as the industry standard. The tank can be round or square, not much you can do with it. It's going to have a metal base, consisting of a positive and negative terminal (as setup via the 510 pin arrangement). A tank to hold juice if chosen (tank vs rda top cap) which can be metal, glass or plastic. A hole to fill it. Holes for airflow. A mouthpiece to suck the vapors from.

Now, how much variation can there really be? There's only so much you can do with it, same with a car. A box on 4 wheels, engine, transmission, steering wheel, engine in the front, middle or rear - they don't really vary greatly from one to another. That said 'authentics' are often way overpriced. I know artists take great pride but this isn't the mona lisa. It's machining, did they hand craft each thread or by chance are they generic sized threads used by just about every metal to metal threaded connection in existence? If I use a an m3 thread vs m4 I'm not suddenly davinci, just sayin'. It's a lot like Michelin bitching at Goodyear because they both make round tires, what the hell else shape are they going to be?

These original atty designers I notice aren't pairing their tanks with factory tinted glass, specialty shapes, it's not handblown. It's the same tube shaped piece of glass everyone else uses. It's not discrediting the authentics but pointing out some obvious shit such as the wheel analogy. What other shape are they going to make it and how original can one get? There's only so much variation. One isn't clearly superior to the other highlighted by the fact that different strokes for different folks, some like genny's, some like squonks, some like velocity decks, some like .. so yea. Superior is as subjective as juice flavor.

Outside of the software and maybe the quality of the camera there's not a whole lot of difference between smart phones either. Iphone, samsung, lg, huwei, motorola, they're all flat rectangles with a touch screen, a charging/data port, buttons on the front, buttons on the side, battery in the back. Swipe to navigate. They all take pics, vids, access the interwebs, have 'apps'.. it's just the way it is. Competition is fierce, that's the way of the world. I'd venture there's just as much competition if not more from other authentic devices than from clones.

No I don't think ripping people off is fair in any market but there has to be some leeway or there would never be any competition. No choice in any product in the consumer world, 1 stove, 1 refrigerator and so on. When so many things are similar it comes down to quality, price and value. At the same time it's foolish to suggest that without the originals there would be nothing new. So I take it if high end cars like ferrari, cadillac and mercedes went tits up tomorrow there would be no chevy, no ford, no mazda, no nissan, no honda - bullshit. Where there's a need there will always be someone to fill the void.

If any manufacturer/designer wants their item to be viewed as 'art' then by all means, but put some originality and craftsmanship into it. Handblow that glass, hand mill the parts, do something that's actually original. Don't just rip 2x4's from a tree trunk like the faceless sawmills do for Home Depot and call yourself Andre Roubo. Companies like Rolls Royce set themselves apart for that very reason, their leather is hand stitched, custom fitted, hand built, not pumped out of a factory like a Ford Focus. The fit and finish are superb, the quality of materials is premium, they use genuine wood accents rather than plastic.
 

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