Induction heated e-cigs

Discussion in 'Vaping Related But Doesn't Fit In a Category' started by brian yaeger, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. brian yaeger

    brian yaeger

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    Induction Heating. The vaporizer of the future
    Posted by brian yaeger on 7/23/2014 to Vapor comments
    [​IMG]
    Induction heatingThe Future of Vaping

    Today I came across a very interesting article about a new way to vape. It’s called the Evoke and it uses induction heating instead of your regular way of heating a coil. The idea seems pretty cool to me. The Evoke vaporizer is a product of Indiegogo labs, and seems to have very promising results when it comes to innovation. The retail price will be set around $99.00 according to the website.

    As far as looks go the Evoke seems to be pretty ergonomically designed. It has a flat bottom so no more ecigs rolling off the table, and a rounded side to fit comfortably inside your hand while vaping. I’m not sure what color schemes they will be offering with this device, but it looks as if from the picture it will have sort of a wood grain feel to it.

    The company offers an explanation as to why induction technology makes the Evoke a better vape. Induction heating is the main aspect of why this device would be considered a better vape because it heats up liquid at lighting fast speeds much like some of your technology used inside your kitchens. Here are some of the reasons induction technology works better than your standard vaping method.

    ·Even heat distribution of materials

    ·Super rapid heat times

    ·No need to change disposable parts

    ·Leak-proof design for liquids

    ·Easy cleanable mesh wick

    ·Accurate adjustable heat settings from 280 degrees Fahrenheit to nail temperatures

    ·No dry firing needed

    ·Won’t overheat and possibly burn

    ·Consistent large clouds

    The materials used inside the Evoke design are well thought out too. As I read through the breakdown they stated the wood use wood as one of the primary materials. At this point I asked myself why they would do such a thing. Well it turns out that not only over time would you get a personalized look because of the oils that from your hand that will soak into the wood grain but this will also keep the Evoke much cooler after repeated use. Apparently they will be using brushed stainless steel which will also add to the outer designs style factor.

    The Evoke will also introduce the “smart vape platform” which will give you added control over your device. The microprocessor onboard will control things such as heating, security, and data monitoring. You will essentially be able to:

    ·Check battery health

    ·Monitor your usage (levels of e-liquid, puffs taken, and refill predictability)

    ·Adjust and save settings

    ·Communicate with an app on your phone

    ·Integration of Apple’s new health app

    They plan to integrate an open source platform for developers to incorporate their own ideas in the building of apps they may interface with the Evoke.


    In conclusion, the Evoke induction heated vaporizer seems like not only a great idea but one that you should be on the lookout for in the future. As more and more innovations hit the electronic cigarette market in the years to come I think you will find many more great devices such as these popping up. I can’t wait to get my hands on one myself.
     
  2. Savage_46

    Savage_46 Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Sounds pretty interesting. I've never used induction anything (AFAIK), so I can't really base any presumptions off of it. But I do like innovation & new tech. Time will tell
     
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  3. Scuba-Matt

    Scuba-Matt Silver Contributor

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    Isn't he still looking for funding? Like his 50 other adventures? Theory is one thing, bringing it to the table is another. I don't see induction heating as a efficient way to heat a coil. with induction the surrounding surface has to get heated, then the heat has to transfer to the wick and heat the eliquid. I don't see how it's going to happen in a micro second so there isn't a delay when pushing the firing button and the time it takes to vape. People that vape want to push the button and vape. They aren't going to want to wait a second or two for the vapor.
     
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  4. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    Heating elements aside for a moment, WHY THE HELL do we need a puff counter or health app interfacing with our device? A clear tank section is much more user friendly that having to find my phone to see what the fluid level is in my APV! And that's if could even find my phone and upgraded to a "smart phone" instead of the "dumb phone" I have now.
     
  5. UncleRJ

    UncleRJ Will write reviews for Beer! Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee Reviewer

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    Why not convert this new technology to work on our existing mods?
     
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  6. Scuba-Matt

    Scuba-Matt Silver Contributor

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    Probably because the guy behind the Evoke is not a vape enthusiast, he's a business money broker looking to make money off the money he raises. This looks like a scam to me. Have you seen the video where their doing heat induction research. Its with a 18" long tube with a coil wrapped around it. The lab looks like a high school class room or wood shop. The pic of the mod is only of the outside no inter pics, Thats probably because the mod is just a mock up shell. The guy behind this
    is a business man. Not a inventor, scientist, or mod maker. To me this cry's scam all the way.
    Have a look https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/evoke-the-first-smart-vaporizer-powered-by-induction
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
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  7. UncleRJ

    UncleRJ Will write reviews for Beer! Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee Reviewer

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    And why I totally agree with you, I am also willing to bet some kind of new atomizer system based on this will hit the vaping world sooner than later.
     
  8. James

    James Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Induction would need big ass batterys .
     
  9. st_andrew

    st_andrew Bronze Contributor

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    I thought the evoke is just a cigalike.
     
  10. Scuba-Matt

    Scuba-Matt Silver Contributor

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    I would hope the technology will keep progressing. I'm sure we are in for a lot of new ideas and surprises in the future.
     
  11. UncleRJ

    UncleRJ Will write reviews for Beer! Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee Reviewer

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    I did see that and it indeed looks like a conceptual mockup
     
  12. GargoyleK1

    GargoyleK1 Bronze Contributor

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    But… But…. But…. I like my coils...
     
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  13. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations Brian,

    I wish my 1st comment had been more positive but it turns out Induction Heat (IH) isn't exactly a new idea and not even in our vaporist universe:

    The article's title was "The Piker Magnetic Induction Vaporizer" and it dates back to at least 2010...

    ;)

    I'm not ready to bet that Evoke's version of an IH vape shall be the ultimate achievement we all dream of. Quite frankly that remains to be seen, euh... Lets just mention their YouTube video demos didn't actually show a 3.7 Volts "proof-of-concept", for example:


    As a matter of fact this was a 9 Volts air-core 26 Watts setup while in some article published elsewhere we can read:


    And in addition:

    « ...features a 1.5mL proprietary leak-less tank system... »​

    So, if we can take for granted that this information was correctly reported then i must ask this simple question: where's the information relative to a 3.7 Volts IH vaporizing test done with 1.5 ml of bowl capacity? Honnestly it doesn't seem to me the Evoke team has ever come that far to a working prototype and i wasn't too surprized when i finally read about "hiring" Focus Product Design...

    For some more realistic idea of real-life IH applications i'd suggest looking here instead:


    Interestingly, it's about a "Curie" alloy implementing thermostatic heating at the point of contact in a handheld soldering iron. It means the alloy stops absorbing magnetic energy when "The Curie Point" has been reached, so it sounds like regulation-loop delays won't ever improve beyond this i believe!...

    This was about when the Evoke web site started using a picture of Albert Einstein to support their slogan, as i recall - and this was my response:

    [​IMG]
    Manual Override!!

    Spare us from depending on an AI master-brain which might go defective please! Instead just pump magnetic energy into the IH bowl and then let its Curie effect replace some electronics hardware (including a temperature sensor, for starters, etc.), in the simplest/sturdiest most reliable way possible... At least in the begining, deluxe options can wait!

    :p

    Briefly put i'd prefer having a dead-basic hard-to-kill magnetic driver equiped with an efficient flux concentrator since energy is so precious in this particular application. But then what metal or ceramic should be used, not knowing what's the best set of trade-offs, etc? Which also makes me wonder what the frequency is going to be, as it will most likely reflect alloy selection, not to mention the tank-capacitor size i figure. Etc., etc... Etcetera.

    All this using a single 3.7 Volts battery that we can expect to deliver ~6 Watts under favourable conditions...


    Now imagine with an on-board computer for the encryption-locked features and a BlueTooth radio module providing remote control functions to an Android tablet, etc., whatever.

    :eek:

    Really i have my doubts about how much care was invested in the preparation of this project, to say the least.

    o_O
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
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  14. jeremy

    jeremy Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    What he said^
     
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  15. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations Jeremy,

    Well, thank you for the support Jeremy, although personally i was hoping we could have more diversity in opinions.

    :rolleyes:

    Actually i found a much more recent example, though it isn't 100 % induction (e.g. only its heater inside):

    [​IMG]

    Yet once investigated it became clear that would fail to demonstrate the full potential of Induction Heat - by design(!), so if you'll allow me then lets just forget that specific episode as i don't expect our readers would care about it anyway. All that matters today is to warn against a new rising trend where the word, "induction", started to pop around for no good reason i believe; and this would happen to be one relevant example under our present context:

    "SMOK Rocket VV/VW Mod"​

    Try this using Google Search/Images then add the magic word to see what happens!... o_O

    It seems although the manufacturer itself refers to some "Smart Locking System" (e.g. some magnetic lock?) there's been great confusion eventually originating from Alibaba and/or its commercial partners which translated into a rather vague expression (that i suspect makes everyone in that business somewhat happy i think):

    « ...Magnetic induction application »!​

    Yay!... :confused:

    So my warning to future e-Cig consumers is to welcome those spectacular claims with a fair amount of criticism, to say the least...

    :(

    Here's a real-life application of Induction Heat coming from the world of laboratory instrumentation:

    [​IMG]
    Japan Analytical Industry (JAi) Curie Point Pyrolyzer model JCi-22

    Hummm...

    But what is this "PyroFoil" thing that loads inside and what's a "Curie Point Pyrolyzer" in any case?

    :eek:

    Surprize, remember my previous comment about IH technology outside of our own vaporist realm?...

    [​IMG]

    Well this is for analysis of what they call "Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) using a Gas Chromatograp" and where this quartz-glass tube illustrated below happens to contain the PyroFoil (Curie) material i've just mentioned:

    [​IMG]

    Available as 21 models corresponding to 21 Curie temperatures:

    [​IMG]

    So, here's an approximate estimation of capacity and the power used to "pyrolyze" (vaporize) the load: ~0.6 ml wrapped inside a 20 mm (L.) metal sheet forming a cylinder small enough to fit the 6 mm (Dia.) quartz vial. While Evoke's planned allowance was said to aim at 1.5 ml...

    Now lets consider the fact that JAI's engineer(s) found necessary to provision for a total of 48 Watts @ 600 KHz over a 0.6 ml bowl, which is 60 % less volume than the alledged Evoke bowl, the later being supposedly heated via IH circuitry running on a single 3.7 Volts battery!

    Euh...

    Yet i must also argue the expected heat-up time is quite brief, but would it be quick enough to avoid excessive stress to a tiny battery?? Not to mention i figure that inside Evoke's pipe there's going to be magnetic shielding plus a flux concentrator, possibly to optimize power conversion, hoping to conserve battery charge exactly!

    ...

    So... Ain't all this a reasonable reason for enthousiast readers to require real proofs-of-concepts or what?...

    :p

    No problemo! The Evoke team sticks around and i even found Loto Labs posting as "Moderator" in a "Supplier/Vendor/Manufacturer" area among electronic pipes; which is the 1 single (intro) message they wrote since August 2nd it turns out - and i quote: « in the final days of our Indiegogo campaign »!!

    Finally i find convenient to conclude with wise words inherited from my grand-ma who i miss so much even at my advanced age: money talks.

    M'yeah, i guess so!...

    ;)
     
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  16. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations,

    Here's an update, showing physical principles associated to electro-magnetism:


    Essentially this proof-of-concept illustration is all about vibrations, not only within the audible frequency-range as it may include perhaps a sound pick-up feature, actually. Which opens the door to signalling applications where the Curie-effect Induction Heating element might fulfill multiple simultaneous functions: e.g. vocal and/or operator feedback, for example. While also heating, of course.

    Below i see an opportunity for direct conversion of mechanical power into potentially thermostatic IH conduction/radiative vaporisation, possibly convective using a heat-exchanger with compounded limitations threatening to defeat advantages gained by using IH technology, unless it's really going to address some novel challenge:

    In this case illustrated above, provided the metal alloy would be selected as a function of its Curie point, defined at the founder's factory, exactly... Well, this may appear a bit extreme though lets notice al least it's not anything seen before as this doesn't depend on fire nor electricity: e.g. a stator populated with magnets around its perimeter will alternate quickly and abruptly in polarity while it rotates. So, the Foucault currents would convert into thermostatic heat, i imagine, because such alloys become magnetically transparent once their fixed Curie temperature has been reached, hence the expression Curie point. When cooling the IH behaviour takes over again, etc., creating a self-regulated loop within the metal itself, at the point of contact...

    To me that spells Zero overburns, it only has to spin like grandma's grammophon, whatever. :cool:

    In conclusion i think that's likely worth exploration, at least nature lovers should appreciate it i figure, right?

    That's simply for the sake of seeking opinions. E.G. can any of this ever prove useful once those principles are applied suitably to this board's favourite applications, etc?

    :rolleyes:

    So...

    How about pulling a tough nylon string to vape or something?? And never worry ever about charge and/or A.C. power outlets again?? Etc...

    :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2014
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  17. out for dilivery

    out for dilivery Member For 4 Years

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    seen this over year ago. still trying to raise money hmmmm!
     
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  18. Giraut

    Giraut Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Me, I don't sweat it: if/when it gets funded (not by be), and if/when it finds it way to market, and if it's as great as the maker says it is, then about 2 months later, a cheap Chinese clone will appear on the market.

    In short, if a Chinese clone appears, it'll be a product worth looking into. Until then, it's not even on my radar.
     
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  19. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations Out for Dilivery,
    Salutations Giraut,

    The Evoke team was successful raising the funds and beyond, my problem with their project was the lack of a technical basis (not to mention a "maker"!) and hence my primitive radar rejected their clever decoy image as well...

    :rolleyes:

    An IH pipe would be OKay with me if it could simply rely on heat retention, because it would defeat its purpose for me should i be worried because of batteries near my nose.

    So my favourite answer so far aims at suggesting a split-setup: one IH pipe plus some custom-made IH "docking station" to match... This should still offer battery operation though keeping that away at good distance, on a table.

    Here's a scenario i've started to comment about, in another post:

    « To me it seems mechanical switches and series/parallel connections would be better avoided using an IH-based approach... »

    The Evoke team wouldn't talk about alloys, frequency and flux shielding/concentration so that's one of the many aspects which rendered me apprehensive, if not skeptical... Then trying to imagine what they won't share i thought to myself a magnetic flux concentrator will be required and it should probably look a bit like this:

    [​IMG]

    With 9 poles that would likely call for 3 batteries and 3 coils each, but the truth is i still wonder what's the optimal method to even combine two! Then reading about a Tera-Watt application i started having an intuition to the effect that "pulse compression" might prove to solve this case conveniently, go figure:

    [​IMG]

    Because saturable inductors would translate as inherently increased current handling - well, honestly i like the previous audio transducer idea (for no-display operation), etc.

    Now what do you say?... :cool:

    Good day, have fun!

    :D
     
  20. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    So...

    What's an ideal e-Liquid vaping temperature with the heater always wet?

    [​IMG]

    120 °C? 300°C, 340 °C?...

    Good day, have fun!

    :D
     
  21. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations,

    Here's how the cigarette method of consumption was developed:

    [​IMG]

    This inventor only solved a manufacturer problem for his own direct mercantile benefit, so maybe it's about time to fix the obsolete cigarette format with something which still has potential to offer the pleasure of a near-smoker experience, without the toxicity of combustion.

    Possibly a health-focussed solution like this:

    [​IMG]

    It's simply representing a pair of SiC foam pellets containing an IH susceptor, or even a halogen bulb perhaps. The idea is to exploit a steep dynamic transition between 2 radically different behaviours in a same structure: 1) the air pockets in SiC foam make it work mostly as an insulator; 2) once properly "charged" air movement turns it almost instantly into a heater with its "heat charge" determined by specific heat and mass, etc., which in addition suggests a simple dosage method by limiting "heat charge" injection thermostatically, via the Curie effect, in pulsed mode...

    This also opens the door to Bi-Energy by allowing approximative power substitution by clean butane burning (blue flames) in "emergency" situations, e.g. when lost in a deep wild forest, etc.
    :gaah:

    In pulsed mode i once evaluated a susceptor measuring 0.88 mm Thick x 12.4 mm Dia. with 17 tiny #53 (1.5113 mm) holes drilled through it would result in a mass of ~0.6423 g, so if for example this is SS-304 metal alloy and the maximum temperature is limited to 225 degrees Celcius then using the on-line resources below it appears a 25 Watts IH driver with a modest power conversion efficiency of 80 % will inject ~72 Joules in a matter of 3.6 seconds...

    Materials Weight Calculator
    [ http://www.hibid.co.uk/metcalc/metcalc.html ]

    Specific HeatCapacity Equation -- EndMemo Calculator
    [ http://www.endmemo.com/physics/specificheat.php ]​

    So, ain't that plenty for any e-Liquids and beyond?... :shades:

    Another advantage of the pulsed mode would be that consumables can be spared a significant amount of long-term baking this way, i figure. In such a hybrid core the cold state would be an asset more than an issue as consumers would no longer need to "invest" as much over some power-hungry pre-heat cycle, which in turn should translate into more "freedom" (forget it on a table and never bother about loosing anything again)... Etc., etc. Briefly put that's not too different from a cigarette smoker perspective except combustion is avoided while the load cools off quick during each inhalation. While i believe the pumping/puffing ritual can be preserved even better than with traditional e-Cig contraptions - one just needs to stay around his IH driver base...

    Good day, have fun!! :D
     
  22. Whiskey

    Whiskey Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Prior post Oct 2014
     
  23. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations,

    M'yeah, such reflexion required this much time dealing with it, practically in total isolation. IMHO a cooperative effort might proven a lot faster...

    Good day, have fun!!
     
  24. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations,

    M'well the reflexion has matured enough to offer some conclusions. For example:

    [​IMG]

    N.B.: Thats not about anyting for sale...

    This would be compatible both with fire and electromagnetic induction though the 1st part is protected by a patent and it may be difficult to pre-heat 2 Hybrid Cores in good time anyway. My purpose here is to illustrate a few concepts, like Micro-Bursting where a "Heat Charge" is injected into a "thermal bottle" with SiC foam surfaces: it's more like an insulator in "iddle" state then the cool stuff happens as airflow set things in motion, because this is a pulsed-mode system that shines best dealing with transitions: the bowl gets vaporized almost as fast as residual heat is removed between 2 inhalations, which also reminds me the IH system would offer Micro-Dosage/Packetizing since the core has finite physical properties while it's quite possible/convenient with induction to exploit the Curie effect of specials metal alloys which change state as they reach their Curie-point (beyond which the metal stops converting IH drive as heat)... In other words the susceptor behaves as a thermostatic self-regulator with only 1 part: itself, a single metal body!

    Using 2 compatible Curie alloys it should be possible to implement heat bottles with 2 slightly different Curie points, hence establishing 2 different fixed-temperature references, so to speak. Starting from there it should be no big deal to control mixing (right into the bowl itself), the analog way...

    Despite sustained efforts to avoid roast spotting there's some "focussing" of the heat vectors still taking place in that bowl so i eventually concluded it would help a great deal to cause a 90° change of direction inside that bowl, in order to promote more even thermalization while fighting "baking".

    M'well, there's a lot more i should comment to make sense but i'm guessing with a fair bit of imagination this type of strategy might prove stimulating for readers of this board as well. The Hybrid Cores can be specified by their short-term heat-storage capacity i figure, so the number of Joules in 2 cores is about what would be available to vaporize almost anything a smoker may need to use, from both sides... So if 1 susceptor is 90 Joules then a capsule can hold 180. Is that sufficient for the task at hand?

    As for the auxiliary boilers/evaporators it's to enhance the Release/Transport Agent, which in cigarettes includes self-poisoning combustion compounds. By chance it's quite probable that H2O + CO2 as from the clean burning of butane can be substituted, even using H2O alone. The prupose is to raise the "specific heat" of Hot Dry Air with the adition of super-heated steam since it can be expected to contribute some more specific heat and hence carry energy more efficiently IMO. At least there's something about it that makes me reject anything which ain't self-moisturized/auto-conditioned; IMO someday e-Liquids may provide a similar feature (without the extra stuff perhaps) and hence it would only render such an idea "sexier".

    Etc., etc.

    Good day, have fun!! :wave:
     
  25. AndriaD

    AndriaD O-Mi-Gawd it's HOT! VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    And Confucious say... "if it ain't broke... don't fix it!"

    Andria
     
  26. Egzoset

    Egzoset Member For 2 Years

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    Salutations AndriaD,

    EXACTLY.

    Good day, have fun!! :D
     

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