Is Butyric Acid A Good Alternative to DA/AP?

[The Vape Space]

After getting some questions about this chemical compound, I decided to compile what limited information there is on butyric acid inhalation.

It's important to note that while the research collected is small compared to diacetyl, butyric acid doesn't seem to have the same indicators of damage that diacetyl and acetyl propionyl have. It has a far more efficient scrub rate in the body (>90%), and no damage to the trachea, larynx, and bronchi were recorded in the mice.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Given that so many popular flavorings do still contain other diketones, if you're using one with butyric acid instead, this is important:
http://www.nudenicotine.com/gcms-critical-info-butyric-acid-modulates-diketone-toxicity/

(quick summary: butyric acid + diketones = worse than diacetyl)

 

[Barbara E.]

I've tried a number of flavorings that were revamped and now use butyric acid - I thought they were terrible.

 

[Gratefulvapes]

Butyric acid also has the ability to make diketones as it ages. Granted the amount of diacetyl will be really really low since its quite a long conversion list but if the two interact then this is some scary news.

 

[Satchvai]

I haven't noticed any real taste difference using DX versions vs regular personally.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

This is awfully funny. Were EX smokers. Oh don't vape that. Used to flood my lungs with smoke.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Butyric acid also has the ability to make diketones as it ages. Granted the amount of diacetyl will be really really low since its quite a long conversion list but if the two interact then this is some scary news.

kinda - do you mean this: http://www.nudenicotine.com/gcms-critical-info-butyric-acid-modulates-diketone-toxicity/

 

[Gratefulvapes]

kinda - do you mean this: http://www.nudenicotine.com/gcms-critical-info-butyric-acid-modulates-diketone-toxicity/

Sorry people have been on my ass here to provide links, but i can't find the link that shows how butyric acid forms into diacetyl but it does was up on wikipedia at one point. It is through a long set of conversions and I'm not sure on the conditions that it needs to convert back into a diketone, but it is possible. And if the two together are a bad combo, it makes you wonder if we should just use a and ap. I believe as long as we take care not too add too much of these additives (acetoin & ap) there is little to no health risk. We can use a comparison to the average amount of diacetyl found in traditional cigarettes (~350ppm) as a base line for a safe limit. We don't see traditional smokers left and right getting sick from smoking diketones or any cases of long term smokers that developed popcorn lung (outside of the 19 factory workers and 1 consumer). In search of a solution for a problem that doesn't exist we find more problems. Why can't we be like the EU and have a wait and see policy.

 

[Cramptholomew]

Sorry people have been on my ass here to provide links, but i can't find the link that shows how butyric acid forms into diacetyl but it does was up on wikipedia at one point.

"One time I read somewhere that something is bad for you but I don't remember where or who said it and I can't backup my claims with any actual science or references but I totally swear that I did read it and it said what I'm saying because I think I remember reading it and I'm not making it up because I assume that what it said was saying that this thing could be bad if something happens at some point but I don't know when or if it actually happens because I don't remember and have no refences but I swear it's real. It must be."

 

[Cramptholomew]

I made a copy of this last post so I can respond to all of your posts.

 

[Time]

Given that so many popular flavorings do still contain other diketones, if you're using one with butyric acid instead, this is important:
http://www.nudenicotine.com/gcms-critical-info-butyric-acid-modulates-diketone-toxicity/

(quick summary: butyric acid + diketones = worse than diacetyl)

Um, no.

I'll be happy when all the internet scientists getting their information from ill understood abstracts posted by "vendors" that had talked to an "old UCSD professor of mine" quit passing off their so called facts, as facts.

 

[Steamin Demon]

Um, no.

I'll be happy when all the internet scientists getting their information from ill understood abstracts posted by "vendors" that had talked to an "old UCSD professor of mine" quit passing off their so called facts, as facts.

He's the lead Chemist and references Emzymes?

 

[Time]

He's the lead Chemist and references Emzymes?

Sure. Leading Chemist of his own company that dilutes nicotine. 9 parts PG/VG or some combination of both and 1 part USP nicotine for 100mg/ml(10%). Then stir.

 

[HeadInClouds]

I'll be happy when all the internet scientists getting their information from ill understood abstracts posted by "vendors" that had talked to an "old UCSD professor of mine" quit passing off their so called facts, as facts.

There is no need to rely on an abstract; the published study is here:
ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Documents/OEL/02.%20Kuempel/References/Morris%20&%20Hubbs_2009-Toxicol%20Sci.pdf

 

[Time]

There is no need to rely on an abstract; the published study is here:
ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Documents/OEL/02.%20Kuempel/References/Morris%20&%20Hubbs_2009-Toxicol%20Sci.pdf

Which doesn't verify your "quick summary" that is really just a false blanket statement stated as fact.

(quick summary: butyric acid + diketones = worse than diacetyl)

The published study includes stated limitations of the study. Real scientists do that. That's why the authors of the study didn't include a fact proven conclusion that butyric acid + diketones = worse than diacetyl.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Which doesn't verify your "quick summary" that is really just a false blanket statement stated as fact.
The published study includes stated limitations of the study. Real scientists do that. That's why the authors of the study didn't include a fact proven conclusion that butyric acid + diketones = worse than diacetyl.

It would have been better if I'd just quoted the actual study:
"The current results indicate that butyric acid diminishes upper airway scrubbing of diacetyl and enhances its penetration to the lower airways." (from page 8/11 in that ftp link I made above, the 'discussion' section at the end)

 

[Time]

It would have been better if I'd just quoted the actual study:
"The current results indicate that butyric acid diminishes upper airway scrubbing of diacetyl and enhances its penetration to the lower airways." (from page 8/11 in that ftp link I made above, the 'discussion' section at the end)

Sure.

Lot's of folks quote the study that says vaping has ten times the aldehydes as cigs. They never seem to mention the specifics and they stand fast to their "facts". Hell, just the other day a study on nicotine was used to claim that nicotine causes cancer. http://vapingunderground.com/thread...ow-it-would-relate-to-vaping-thoughts.114470/

It doesn't mean the studies are flawed. The studies are fine. The conclusion drawn from them is often flawed, mostly due to having more weight applied to the study than is implied by the study itself.

Studies are often misused in this fashion on the internet and media.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Sure.

Lot's of folks quote the study that says vaping has ten times the aldehydes as cigs. They never seem to mention the specifics and they stand fast to their "facts". Hell, just the other day a study on nicotine was used to claim that nicotine causes cancer. http://vapingunderground.com/thread...ow-it-would-relate-to-vaping-thoughts.114470/

Studies are often misused in this fashion on the internet and media.

Did I miss a newer or conflicting study or recent peer review retractions to the Morris-Hubbs research?
Or do you object to their methodology, models, or conclusions?
It's actual an published research study on the topic of this thread, so it's relevant. If something is "suspect" about it, I'd like to know.

 

[Time]

Did I miss a newer or conflicting study or recent peer review retractions to the Morris-Hubbs research?
Or do you object to their methodology, models, or conclusions?
It's actual an published research study on the topic of this thread, so it's relevant. If something is "suspect" about it, I'd like to know.

None of the above.

I object to the use of the study out of context. The study focused on acute levels and in the context of popcorn flavoring. There wasn't a single mention of of vaping and the amounts we vape at.

Maybe you can provide a single case of popcorn lung outside of actual acute levels of popcorn flavoring?

 

[HeadInClouds]

I object to the use of the study out of context. The study focused on acute levels and in the context of popcorn flavoring. There wasn't a single mention of of vaping and the amounts we vape at.

Maybe you can provide a single case of popcorn lung outside of actual acute levels of popcorn flavoring?

It's a very specific study, which used 30ppm butyric acid with 100ppm diacetyl (from Table 2), both separately and in combination to measure uptake (absorption) in the airways.

Each of us can judge relevance of their conclusion for ourselves: "The current results indicate that butyric acid diminishes upper airway scrubbing of diacetyl and enhances its penetration to the lower airways. This was shown for the nose but would likely also occur in the large airways during mouth breathing." (from page 8/11)

Butyric acid is "the most powerful known inhibitor of diacetyl reductase (Nakagawa et al., 2002)" - page 7. That is, butyric acid interferes with our bodies' ability to break down diacetyl, leaving more active diacetyl in the airways for a longer time than diacetyl inhaled without butyric acid. That is what the study was designed to find out, and it's where I got my original statement: (butyric acid + diketones = worse than diacetyl). I didn't mean to oversimplify and will just leave the info here for the curious to research further on their own.

 

[Time]

It's a very specific study, which used 30ppm butyric acid with 100ppm diacetyl (from Table 2), both separately and in combination to measure uptake (absorption) in the airways.

Each of us can judge relevance of their conclusion for ourselves: "The current results indicate that butyric acid diminishes upper airway scrubbing of diacetyl and enhances its penetration to the lower airways. This was shown for the nose but would likely also occur in the large airways during mouth breathing." (from page 8/11)

Butyric acid is "the most powerful known inhibitor of diacetyl reductase (Nakagawa et al., 2002)" - page 7. That is, butyric acid interferes with our bodies' ability to break down diacetyl, leaving more active diacetyl in the airways for a longer time than diacetyl inhaled without butyric acid. That is what the study was designed to find out, and it's where I got my original statement: (butyric acid + diketones = worse than diacetyl). I didn't mean to oversimplify and will just leave the info here for the curious to research further on their own.

*sigh*

Correct, it is a very specific study for Occupational exposure.

Taking your first quote;

"The current results indicate that butyric acid diminishes upper airway scrubbing of diacetyl and enhances its penetration to the lower airways. This was shown for the nose but would likely also occur in the large airways during mouth breathing." (from page 8/11)

Do you vape through your nose? Scrubbing in the upper airway is moot. I think for nearly everybody, we draw directly to the lungs. When we smoked cigs with diacetyl, we inhaled directly to our lungs. Not one single case of popcorn lung from any individual that was not exposed to large quantities of popcorn flavoring. Most if not all of whom also smoked diacetyl.

Do you know how much diacetyl is in a vape on inhale or how much is retained in the body? Do you know if the pg/vg carrier has an effect?

The only relevant study on diacetyl and/or butyric acid effects on the body during vaping will be by studying vaping. Smoking diacetyl has not given a single person popcorn lung and I'd be very surprized if there was not an ingredient of the hundreds in cigs that doesn't inhibit the reductase of diacetyl. Even if it's just the black tar lining our lungs. The same could very well turn out to be true for vaping.

While you're free to believe what ever you like, stating your belief as fact won't pass.

 

[HeadInClouds]

The only relevant study on diacetyl and/or butyric acid effects on the body during vaping will be by studying vaping.

There is the crux of our disagreement, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[soy_sauce]

This is awfully funny. Were EX smokers. Oh don't vape that. Used to flood my lungs with smoke.

It's about managing risks. I bought a motorbike, so stopped smoking to keep my chance of messy painful death at about the same level (99.8%)

It does make sense really though, if vaping wasn't a thing, would you pick "Coffin' Nails XXTRA STRONG" or "Coffin' Nails XXXTRA STRONG with XXXTRA Polonium"?

If vaping turns out to be reasonably safe, I will probaby decide to do it for a very long time. Smoking, I was kind of apathetic about it, but wanted to stop not long after I started.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

I'm still doing research in the field of "alcohols effects on Bikers" Results seem to support that after 12 beers I have to tinkle.