Know your enchancers

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - Guides, Tips & Tricks!' started by Karebear, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. Karebear

    Karebear New Member

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    My husband did a lot of work on this, and I think it is very helpful to all DIYers.

    I have been feverishly working on new diy flavors for almost 2 months now. I was once a chef, and I know flavors. I also used to process my own tobacco so i know something of enhancers/additives. When I began studying ejuice about a month before I started vaping, I found myself faced with a whole new set of strange sounding chemicals to learn about. I thought i would share some of my notes on what I have learned so far as regards vaping additives. I hope maybe it will save you fellows some time researching them.

    Here we go...
    Acetyl Pyrazine- Sold by tpa. Used in cigarettes and cookies to impart a
    "toasty" taste. Gives your juice a baked, toasted, or crispy note at 0.5%. At 1%,
    it adds the taste of toasted mixed nuts. At 2% it adds a taste similar to Fritos
    corn chips.
    Caffeine- Sold by fw. The active ingredient in coffee. Does almost nothing
    for your juice. According to my brother (who has Ph. D.s. in both pharmacology and
    toxicology), you would have to sub-ohm over an ounce of 10% caffeine juice at
    about 70w to get the effect of 1 cup of coffee. Pretty much useless. To anyone who
    says they get a buzz from vaping caffeine, I'd like to borrow you for a stage
    hypnosis act!
    Capsicum- Sold by fw. The chemical that makes hot peppers hot; also used as
    an analgesic. used in VERY SMALL amounts in your juice, it can cure sore throat. A
    little more and you've got yourself an ejuice akin to hot pepper joke gum. More
    than that, and you may win a one-way ticket to the emergency room. This stuff can
    be dangerous. Keep in mind that the capsicum sold by fw is 375 times the strength
    of the hottest pepper known to man.
    Ester of Wood Rosin- Sold by fa as bitter wizard, also a main ingredient of
    mts vape wizard by fa. Used in Gatorade and some colas to give a bitter note. At
    0.5%, masks the flavor of vg and pg, thus only leaving the taste of your flavor
    mix. At 1% or higher, gives the pleasant bitter ring of colas, whiskeys, or dark
    chocolate.
    Ethylguaiacol- Sold by sv and is a main ingredient of dnb drops wg by inw.
    Adds a smoky, ashy note to your juice. Great for making cigar, cigarette, and pipe
    flavors more realistic. This stuff requires a long steep in order to taste it, at
    least 2 weeks.
    Ethyl Maltol- Sold by tpa. Besides sugar, this is the other major ingredient
    in cotton candy (floss), which gives it its characteristic flavor. It is commonly
    used as a sweetener in ejuice. Its physical properties cause it to gunk up coils
    slightly.
    Gamma Octalactone- Sold by tpa and sv. This is the stuff they put in
    fudgesicles and other non-dairy treats to make them taste creamy. At 50ppm, it
    will make any juice you make extra creamy; you'd swear there's real cream in it!
    WARNINGS: Any more than 50ppm tastes atrocious. Tpa sells it full strength, so
    you will need to dilute it to 1% in pg before using; then you can measure it to
    0.5% of your mix.
    Guaiacol- Sold by tpa, and is a main ingredient of both black fire by fa and
    dnb drops wg by inw. This is the chemical that gives smoked meat and fish their
    smoky flavor. As you can imagine, it makes anything you mix it with taste smoked,
    but not burned. It also adds throat hit. It must be steeped for at least 2 weeks
    to reach its full potential.
    Isobutavan- Sold by tpa, and is a main ingredient of mts vape wizard by fa,
    smooth by tpa, and flavor toner/enhancer by fw. This is the "thickening" agent in
    the aforementioned enhancers. It does not actually thicken your juice any, but
    alters the mouth feel of the vapor to seem thicker. It also cancels the vapor
    thinning effect of some flavorings, thus making your clouds appear denser. Too
    much of it makes everything taste like vanilla.
    Malic Acid- Sold as sour by tpa. This is the sour note in old fashioned sour
    balls candy as well as salt and vinegar crisps. I'm sure you get where this is
    going regarding ejuice. It tends to form crystals on coils. WARNINGS: Like any
    acid, this stuff eats kanthol, albeit slowly, and when used with nickel coils,
    produces nickel compounds classified as class "A" carcinogens (sorry tc fans, and
    no, I'm not showing any documentation, as it is simple chemistry: nickel+acid
    +air=horrible, dangerous stuff; read a ....ing textbook).
    4-Methyl Guaiacol- Sold by tpa and is a main ingredient of black fire by fa.
    Added to foods to make them taste as if they have been cooked on a grill or over a
    campfire. Gives your juice a wood, charcoal, or coal fire note. Just a touch can
    make your toasted marshmallow vape really take you back to camping with the folks.
    Methyl Menthyl Acetate- Sold as koolada by tpa and kool effects by fw.
    Menthol cool without menthol taste. That simple. Of course, you can make your own
    by simply dissolving menthol crystals into pg and cooking it at 180F until it no
    longer smells like menthol. It takes a long time, much patience, and careful
    heating; this is how I do it, but then, I'm an alchemist.
    Piperine- Sold as flash by fa. This is what gives black pepper its spiciness
    Can be used to add throat hit or mixed in equal measure with fa pepper black to
    add the taste of fresh cracked pepper to your savory mixes.
    Sucralose- Sold by tpa. Artificial sweetener that is ubiquitous, you know,
    everywhere and in everything; it's "splenda, the artificial sweetener made from
    real sugar!" Well, being made from sugar, you can imagine what it does to coils,
    not to mention that a dry hit of this will give you more "tar" than the analogues
    you're likely trying to avoid.
    Syringol- Sold in pure crystal form by tpa (for a limited time only) and is a
    main ingredient in both black fire by fa and dnb drops wg by inw. This is the
    chemical that gives smoked meat and fish their smoky aroma. It is the main flavor
    in all commercial smoke flavorings, and was even added to Gen. Patch action
    figures in the 80s to give them the "smell of battle". Mix crystals 13.5% in pg to
    make extract. Be careful not to overdo it with this flavor, or your juice will
    taste like phenol (that nasty background note in sore throat spray).
    Triacetin- Sold as aaa magic mask by fa, and is a main ingredient of mts vape
    wizard by fa, smooth by tpa, and flavor toner/enhancer by fw. This stuff is used
    in many processed foods and in cigarette filters to smooth out harsh notes. It
    does this by temporarily numbing certain taste receptors in your tongue. This is
    the reason you can stomach breakfast cereals, microwave meals, and all the added
    paper and other trash they put in commercial cigarettes. Likewise, it can make
    some ejuices tolerable, maybe even tasty, that without it would be abominable.
    This stuff is actually amazing. If you really suck at diy, and your juice tastes
    like an abortion, you need this stuff; it can save even some of the worst tasting
    mixes. SIDENOTE: Triacetin is also the most amazing coil cleaner! It actually does
    for cotton what conditioner does for hair; vg slowly clogs wicks, and pg makes the
    fibers brittle, but aaa unclogs wicks and plasticizes fibers, leaving them
    flexible once more.
    Triethyl Citrate- Sold by tpa. This is an emulsifier used to make essential
    oils water soluable. It is used by fa, tpa, inw, fw, cap, hs, and just about every
    flavor company everywhere. It is used in most popular flavors. This is the "secret
    ingredient" that turns oil soluables into water soluables, if you know how to use
    it. think of it as "the flavorer's stone", sought after to turn crap flavors into
    gold.
    Trimethyl Pyrazine- Sold by tpa. nearly identical to acetyl pyrazine at top
    of list.
     
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  2. gopher_byrd

    gopher_byrd Cranky Old Fart VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Thanks Karebear! Lot's of research here on your part so we don't have to.

    @Huckleberried is this worthy of a sticky?
     
  3. Huckleberried

    Huckleberried Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I was thinking the same thing, LOL.
     
  4. RJ-Kloudburg

    RJ-Kloudburg VU Donator Member For 1 Year

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    Top notch Information, Thank You for all the hard work... I bow to the Master Huckleberried :)
     
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  5. Huckleberried

    Huckleberried Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    NOoooo no no. That's all Karebear and her hubs. They did all that work.
     
  6. kimber

    kimber Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Simply AWESOME!! Thanks so much!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  7. Sonar505

    Sonar505 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years Modder

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    Thank you for taking the time to put this together great post! Gets my vote for stickyness to make it easier to find.
     
  8. nabibrian

    nabibrian VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Nice list and descriptions, thank you for sharing!
     
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  9. Karebear

    Karebear New Member

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    my husband did the hard work, all I did was post it... LOL.... I just thought it might be helpful to you guys
     
  10. Buttersworth

    Buttersworth New Member

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    Triethyl Citrate.. I wondering if this is what im looking for? Could i use this to turn a flavoring to a water soluble solution and then add water to it while keeping flavor intensity? any views on this
     
  11. Karebear

    Karebear New Member

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    My husband, who did all the work on this, just joined!!! YAY!! You can look him up on here, his username is Ol'DocPorter
     
  12. Huckleberried

    Huckleberried Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Well, welcome to VU @Ol'DocPorter ! And thanks for all the info you put together for us :)
     
  13. RJ-Kloudburg

    RJ-Kloudburg VU Donator Member For 1 Year

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    Well Welcome Ol'DocPorter and Karebear an Huckleberried For all the wonderful information and of course joining up DOC I'm brady new here but want to make my own e-juice and with your help it might just happen sooner than later lol Thanx again
     
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  14. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    No problem.
     
  15. SailCat

    SailCat Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Thank you both for this list. Ol;DocPorter's reputation precedes him. :cool: Anticipation is high for his further contributions.
     
  16. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    Ready to answer questions and offer advice. I am an ex chef with a strong background in chemistry and years of experience wine making and processing my own tobacco.
     
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  17. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    Thank you for the flattery.
     
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  18. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    Triethyl citrate is normally used to emulsify essential oils, which are very concentrated, not oil based flavorings. So, in short, you will lose flavor intensity; in fact you always do in emulsification. The amount you would need to emulsify pre-made flavoring would taste terrible. This shit tastes like shampoo!
     
  19. MrScaryZ

    MrScaryZ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    great stuff thankyou
     
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  20. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    @Ol'DocPorter and @Karebear: they're more ingredients than additives, but how about alcohols and oils in flavouring?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
  21. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    Alcohols are simple. Just add to an equal measure of PG, mix thoroughly (violence and steeping may be required), heat to 180F to release the alcohol, and viola! nearly all the flavour molecules should be trapped in a colloidal suspension. The few that do settle out can be emulsified with a drop of triethyl citrate. As for oils, only concentrated essential oils should be used. Other, weaker oil based flavours will lose most of their taste in emulsification, and the amount of TC needed will make your juice taste like soap. Of course, some ingredients are added for effect, not flavour; with these, just go ahead and emulsify with TC as you would an essential oil, then cover up the shampoo taste with other flavourings. Hope this helps.
     
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  22. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    MF! That's some breakdown. A new cook on the forum, upping the game. Welcome.
    Any considerations about the health impact of vaping oils and alcohols?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
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  23. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    We inhale them all the time, small amounts every time we can smell perfume, air freshener, or cleaner, and incredibly large doses every time we cook or eat.
     
  24. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    Sure and that's fine with me, but there is some confusion about the use of oils in vaping and if it markedly stupid to vape it at all, or at certain percentages or temperatures, I'd rather know and proceed from there.
     
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  25. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    O.K., in my experience thusfar, and remember this is just my opinion; I would never high watt sub-ohm any oil based substance, even water soluble flavouring based on an essential oil. I've done it before, but never again. With supra-ohm tootle puffing, though, I would go ahead and use the essential oils emulsified with TC, starting at 0.25% and work up to taste. I would also feel safe using commercial water soluble flavourings based on an essential oil, such as citrus flavors. And again I would be fine with using alcohol flavourings, provided they are cooked at 180F, left to breathe and settle, skimmed top and bottom, then a drop of TC added. If you're a mouth-to-lung eGo fan, knock yourself out. I'm a sub-ohm tank, dragon hookah simulator kinda guy, and I don't have a "coughing up blood" fetish, so I'll stick with purely water soluble stuff for my own use. There you go.
     
  26. SailCat

    SailCat Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    There are many of us who are on board with that,
     
  27. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    Cool, Cat.
     
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  28. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    excellent thread, and immensely helpful
     
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  29. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    A number of additives not yet covered, quoted with permission from a writeup by Charles Yates of The Vapers' Table. This includes a number of concoctions sold by flavouring companies whose ingredients are unknown.

    Tetramethylpyrazine
    Adds Notes of- Nutty, Musty, Earthy, Cocoa, Raw Coffee, Potato, Peanuts
    Application- Good for Tobacco use at 1% starting
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6821-tetramethylpyrazine-10-pg.aspx

    M Type Tobacco Premium – Tabanon/Tabanone
    Tabanone is an important tobacco note molecule. From Turkish Tobacco Leaves
    Adds Notes of- Tobacco, Earthy, Caramel
    Application- Good for Tobacco. Great to mix with other tobacco flavors too like Tobacco Absolute
    Percentage- Start at 1 drop per 10-15ml. No more than 2% for long steep
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7322-m-type-premium-flavor.aspx

    Linalool – A Terpene alcohol chemical.
    It is found in plants like Coriander, Bay laurel and Cinnamon.
    Adds Notes of- Herbal, Citrus (lemon-orange mainly) Floral (All important for Tobacco)
    Application- Tobacco
    Percentage- Start at 1%
    https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6148-linalool.aspx

    Hickory Smoke Flavor
    Adds a touch of that smoke to tobacco juices-
    Adds Notes of- Smoke, Campfire
    Application- Tobacco flavors such as flu cured and cowboy blends. Good for harsher needs at higher %
    Percentage- Can be strong so start at 0.5%
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7164-hickory-smoke-flavor.aspx?keyword=hickory+smoke

    FA MTS Vape Wizard
    MTS stands for Mellow, Thick and Smooth. Flavor stabilizer
    MTS vape wizard contributes toward softening any acidic/sour perception, it assists in making vapour thicker, and it delivers both body and depth to any e-liquid
    Adds Notes of- Not a distinct flavor per se. More about what it provides
    Application- Tobacco a must try but can be used for most e liquids at low %
    Percentage- 0.5 – 2%
    https://www.myfreedomsmokes.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=mts

    Damascenone-Beta
    Compound component of essential oils. Found in Wines
    Adds Notes of- A very powerful fruity floral note. Complex odor of rose, plum, blackcurrant, wine and tobacco
    Application- Tobacco mainly
    Percentage- Start at 0.2%-0.5% Month long steep is best
    https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7278-damascone-beta.aspx

    Smooth Flavour PG Concentrate (TFA)
    This will round out any harsh edges and provide a thick, satisfying mouth feel. It will soften the high notes of your blend while boosting your background notes.
    Adds Notes of- Fruity
    Application- All Flavors
    Percentage- Start at 2% depending on other additives- Experiment
    https://www.myfreedomsmokes.com/nicotine-base-flavorings/flavorings/tfa-smooth.html

    Ethyl Vanillin
    Adds Notes of- Sweetener, Vanilla
    Application- All Flavors
    Percentage- 0.5 – 2% on average
    http://wizardlabs.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=79&product_id=342
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7258-vanillin-crystals-10-pg.aspx

    Brown Sugar TFA
    This is a water soluble version that I use in many mixes. Also use marshmallow
    Adds Notes of- Sweet
    Application- All flavors
    Percentage- Start at 3% but subjective. Depends on other ingredients
    http://wizardlabs.us/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=425&search=brown+sugar

    Saline*
    Saline can be used for many e liquid mixes. This can be the secret missing element to mixes.
    NaCl 0.09% from a pharmacy. NOT table salt

    Concentrated Lemon Juice
    Adds an extra depth and brightens Fruit flavors
    Adds Notes of- Fruit, zing, tangy
    Application- Fruits and Tobacco
    Percentage- Start at 1 to 2 drops per 5 ml
    Make from freshly squeezed lemons or buy organic from the supermarket

    Apple Cider Vinegar or Variations of Vinegar
    Increase of acidity and can make liquids pop
    Adds Notes of- Fruity, tangy, sour, vinegar of course
    Application- Really enhances a tobacco mix. Also try for fruits at 0.5%
    Percentage- 1-2 drops/10ml
    Make your own or buy organic

    Piperonal (AKA Heliotropin)
    Adds Floral Notes and described as similar to Vanilla and Cherry

    3-methylcyclopentane-1, 2-Dione (AKA Cyclopentenolone)
    Commonly used as a flavor enhancer in both cigarettes and cigars.
    * Efficacy of saline questioned. See posts 32-...

    Addition:

    Menthyl Methyl Lactate (AKA Koolada)
    Related to or described as menthyl methyl acetate by @Ol'DocPorter in @Karebear's inaugural post, this is generally identified as the active ingredient in Koolada.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  30. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    Purportedly, saline has a number of interesting aspects beyond its effect on flavour: it increases the viscosity of (e-) liquids and produces a vapour which feels wetter and promotes hydration of the mouth, throat and nose.

    As to the safety of vaping saline, some concern was raised as the sodium chloride in it produces pure chlorine gas when vaporised, a lethal compound used in the trench warfare of WW1. Despite that vaping saline should not present a particular health hazard as PG and VG evaporate at 188.2 °C (370.8 °F; 461.3 K) and 290 °C (554 °F; 563 K) respectively and vaporisers apparently operate well below the 1413 °C (2,575 °F; 1,686 K) at which salt evaporates so that sodium chloride particles remain intact when e-liquid is atomised. Correct me if I'm wrong, 'Doc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  31. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    Saline affects vape flavor exactly the same as distilled water. It decreases the viscosity more than pg, exactly the same as distilled water. In a vaporizer, It reduces the visible vapor exactly the same as distilled water. It does counteract the drying effect of vg exactly the same as distilled water. The only difference between the two is that saline leaves salt on your coil, which clogs your cotton and promotes corrosion of your wire. The salt will not vape unless you heat it to almost 2,700F. You would melt your coil long before that, so there is no way it would alter the flavor of your vape. By the same token, you will not release the chlorine gas, unless you are vaping on the surface of the sun. Saline has to be one of the most useless additions to ejuice period.
     
  32. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    Going by that, then, I suppose the increased viscosity of heavy VG liquids noted when adding saline is just the normal thinning effect of water. The same difference as between pure VG and 86%. That it has no effect on taste does surprise me as it is mentioned with some regularity, but it may be another effect of thinning the liquid or hydrating the respiratory system.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  33. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    The only way it will change the flavor is if you drink it. Distilled water does everything that saline does except fuck up your coil head. People used it a few years ago thinking, "medical = sterile = good". Breaking news: distilled water is sterile, too (until you open it, just like saline).
     
  34. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    So, what exactlly is FA MTS...what is it made of MTS is just the trade name ,but what are we vaping when we vape MTS....is it safe?
     
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  35. Karebear

    Karebear New Member

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    We tried Brown Sugar TFA... That stuff is HORRIBLE!! Not even in a mix is it good, in my opinion.
     
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  36. Huckleberried

    Huckleberried Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I use that one all the time, LOL. It's imperative for my cookie vapes. I use it at 0.5% though.
     
  37. SailCat

    SailCat Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Interesting saline information, Doc. I'm conflicted, however. Test results from another respected member whom I've frequently quoted on this and other topics would indicate they (we2rcool are two who post as one) noted the following regarding their coils and other effects of saline:

    “The saline is an amazing goodness! Our "base" for almost everything we mix is now 80% VG with a 20% dilution (the 20% dilution is made up of 45% distilled water; 45% .9% saline; and 10% PGA).The flavors are much more *alive*, the dry mouth is lessened, and the final juice is MUCH easier on coils/wicks! The 'salt' (agree - we can't taste) is essential imo for certain flavors....particularly chocolate & bakery flavors
    We've used a VG base for all our mixes of 80% VG; 9% distilled water; 9% sterile saline solution (.9%) and 2% distilled water...for almost a year in all of our mixes."

    This is a small part of their results which included and excluded saline. I post this not as contradictory (you earned my respect before your appearance at VU) but rather to further the topic discussion and encourage others to post their experiences. I am just now mixing my latest batch of saline-inclusive bases so have no personal experience with it.
     
  38. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I vaped a juice somewhat like this...I think it was Open Source...thouroughly unimpressed with their juice. Really had lousy clouds and an unsatisfying feel in the mouth.
     
  39. SailCat

    SailCat Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I have heard the same thing, pulsevape. Reviews of their liquids have been less than stellar in general. For DIYers. their flavoring of choice is said to be NF.
     
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  40. RJ-Kloudburg

    RJ-Kloudburg VU Donator Member For 1 Year

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    O Holy WOW Thank You so much for the very kind information,
     
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  41. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    It is up there in the OP. Flavour Art MTS Vape Wizard is mainly triacetin, isobutavan, and wood tannin.
     
  42. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    I think we got a bad batch, and mixed it at 10% Yeechh!
     
  43. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    Admittedly, the salt in saline, being in solution, is in a free-ion state, but even in the ultra-rare case that those free ions would ever find anything more competitively binding in the flavoring, the resulting salts still would not vaporize, and the loss of whatever was saltbound woulld change the flavor far below the threshold of even the most sensitive human palate's notice. Sorry, though we all know taste is subjective, the only way saline can make a difference in taste is because you "believe" it can. I can make an orange flavored drink, put purple colouring in it , and 10 out of 10 people will swear it's grape flavored. This is what i mean by taste being subjective. They are stating that the drink tastes like grapes, and I'm Just stating that it's physically impossible, and all an illusion in their minds. Get it?
     
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  44. SailCat

    SailCat Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Got it. Thanks, Doc.

    You just know I'm still gonna try it, though. :)
     
  45. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    No problem, Cat!
     
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  46. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    Is this based on personal observations or a public source you can share?
     
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  47. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    My brother is a scientist. He has access to a huge lab, but don't even think about imposing on him, right now; He's very busy working on the cure for asthma.
     
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  48. Steam Pilgrim

    Steam Pilgrim New Member

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    No worries. The entire notion of imposing on the brother of someone I don't even know strikes me as utterly bizarre.
     
  49. Deeks

    Deeks Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Thanks for all the good info Doc, wows!!
     
  50. Ol'DocPorter

    Ol'DocPorter Bronze Contributor

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    No problem, Deeks.
     
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