May 11, 2020

Discussion in 'Vaping Related But Doesn't Fit In a Category' started by Rossum, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    • Thanks to the court decision by a judge named "Grimm" (you can't make this shit up!) that's now the deadline for to submit PMTAs to the FDA, and it's less than 9 months away.
    • Once that deadline passes all vape goods for which no PMTA has been submitted will be illegal in the USA.
    • According to the FDA itself, preparing an acceptable PMTA will cost six figures. Most people in the industry think that estimate is low. I'm confident Juul will submit one, but I don't know who else will.
    • There is much doubt that the FDA will approve a PMTA for any open system at all.
    Personally, I've been ready for this for over three years. Are you? And if not what do you plan to do about it?
     
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  2. JuicyLucy

    JuicyLucy My name is Lucy and I am a squonkaholic VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee

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    Fortunately I am more than ready - not sure what will happen to those who are not ready

    I'm guessing some of the bigger manufacturers in China will pay up - but again, who knows about actual approval

    Also up for a guess is how the FDA will interpret the substantially similar rule, etc
     
  3. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    The six or seven figures that a PMTA "costs" isn't paid to the FDA; its the expected cost of preparing a PMTA that the FDA will consider accepting, and even then, there's no guarantee that it will be approved.

    My own sense is that Chinese hardware manufacturers won't bother submitting. They'll count on the fact that small packages are almost impossible to screen. Thus, I think hardware from China will still be available from retailers there, although there will be some risk that an order won't make it through.

    I think a bigger concern is consumables. I would suppose that some of the bigger US juice manufacturers will submit PMTAs, but will any be approved?
     
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  4. Artemis

    Artemis Gold Contributor Member For 5 Years

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    I'm not ready. I need to stock up on cheap mods and coils. I suppose I will learn how to build coils if I must. However, I have liters of nic in the freezer but will pick up more this late fall/winter.
     
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  5. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I believe this is the single most important thing you can do ensure you can keep vaping, come what may.
     
  6. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I have been prepped for a couple of years.
    Yeah I expect Juul to submit a PMTA app, however it may not be approved or be approved at a much lower nic level.
    And of course each flavor pod will require a separate approval.

    I do not expect high level nic salts to survive the PMTA process.
     
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  7. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    DARN that will require a new PMTA approval every 2 months or so the way they roll stuff out.
     
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  8. wildgypsy70

    wildgypsy70 My son calls me "vape mom" Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team

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    Yeah....I’m pretty much ready. Been getting ready since the last scare....but they seem a bit more serious this time. Like it’s for real.

    I’ll probably pick up a few more mechs and another liter of nic. Maybe a few more RDA/RTA’s just to have around. Maybe some wire. Liquid I’m definitely good on....I have enough supply to keep a small army going. And enough flavors(even tho they’re not in danger atm)to mix for others, if need be.

    But in reality, I’m good......definitely more than a few extra set ups for myself and more than a few to give to others in need. They’re the ones that will suffer the most.
     
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  9. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Being kinda new to vaping, I’ll have to stock up on nic and maybe learn about mechs. Not that I really want to, since I just started using VW mods. But with this crackdown looming, it might be time to look into unregulated mods that don’t have breakable electronics.

    Shit, we need to start an Underground Railroad or something to help people out.

    Rossum, I know you don’t give a hoot about folks who aren’t prepared, but if I were one of them, I’d hope someone would help.
    Thanks for this thread, however.


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  10. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    With a mech, it's all about the quality of the contacts and the spring. But China isn't going to stop making regulated mods, and small packages sent from retailers to end users are terribly difficult to screen, especially if the contents aren't described/declared as something vape-related.

    Make nicotine your highest priority, but don't buy it right now. Wait until the weather cools off some. Having it sit in 100+F trucks for days while its on the way to you is not good for it. In the meanwhile, make sure you have some freezer space available when it arrives, and that you've got appropriate glass bottles waiting for it (unless you're willing to spend the money on freezer-ready nic).

    I think you've misinterpreted my sentiments somehow. What I've said is that I will have little sympathy for folks on these forums who've been told what's coming and refused to prepare. Even those who've done nothing yet still have time, which is why I'm raising this issue again now; I really do want to help anyone who isn't ready yet. If a person budgets what they used to spend on smoking for a few months, they'll be able to vape almost indefinitely thereafter at darn close to no cost.

    Even if a miracle occurs and we get another reprieve of some sort from the FDA, there's death by 1000 cuts happening on the state and local level. Bans on flavored vape products are spreading far and wide, as are taxes specifically on vape goods. My home state of PA has had a 40% wholesale tax on vape goods since October of 2016. San Francisco has banned the sale of all vape stuff that hasn't got FDA approval, which right now means all of it, and other jurisdictions are considering similar measures.

    I finished my preps three years ago and I've never regretted it.
     
  11. joha_wa_alhimar

    joha_wa_alhimar Bronze Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I'm good on Vapes and atomizers, but i should really start mixing my own juice.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  12. Just Frank

    Just Frank Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I read that a vape org or group is now suing the FDA in court for the unreasonable dead line. The way it is now, the FDA will just about kill vaping. Hundreds if not thousands of businesses will be done for.


    Lets face it, it'll be better this way for americas kids *sarcasm* . This isn't about anything but money and greed. The FDA doesn't give a shit about peoples health.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  13. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Yes, that's correct:
    https://apnews.com/609232c1732a4cc39685c713aba32525

    Sure, but let's not forget that the deadline that was originally set by the Deeming Regs was August 8, 2018. We've been on borrowed time ever since. A federal court as already agreed that the current administration's FDA kicked the can down the road four years without following proper procedures, and the new May 11, 2020 deadline is a result of that court decision. Personally, I do not think that the VTA's suit will accomplish much. At best, it will kick the deadline forward into 2021 or 2022.
     
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  14. obijuan77

    obijuan77 Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I also have been posting about this in a few other threads. I just know the day after the deadline, this forum is going to explode with new posts like 'OMG vaping is banned?!' & 'where can I find .....'
    There are way too many people with their heads in the sand about this. Luckily I have been prepping for the past few years & I'm definitely set for the next 25 or so years. FDA can kiss my ass. I am however going to buy more nic. I have several liters in the freezer, but a few more couldn't hurt right?

    As @Rossum says, make nicotine your highest priority. You can have all the equipment, indestructible mods, RDA's etc, but without nicotine what the hell you going to vape? I could vape unflavored if I had to, but without nic I worry that the temptation to go back to smoking would be to great, and I'm not about to do that. Quit a 23 year disgusting habit, and never going back.

    So Fuck you FDA & Big Tobacco
     
  15. Wb80

    Wb80 -DIY-demon- VU Donator Gold Contributor

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    Been prepping since i started vaping. Have plenty of gear already but i sm sure i will add anothrr dozen mods and a few dozen more attys. My goal is 10 liters of nic in the freezer once summer heat ends. Kiss my ass big brother, i am ready and sitting pretty.
     
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  16. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    How will I know if it’s the freezer ready nic? If I buy it in plastic, it can’t be frozen? Or the plastic leaches like most plastics do anyway?
    I didn’t mean to come down on you so hard, since I like you and you’re only the messenger about what’s coming down.
    I was thinking about it last night, and I still can’t believe the FDA might actually try to stop millions of people from vaping. I’d rather pay tax, as draconian as that may be, to have access to what I need/want to vape. NYC and State tax doubled the price of smokes, but we paid it. It was harsh, but they had people by the balls.
    It may sound selfish or childish, but at this point I’ve only got 9 months to learn rebuilding, mixing, as well as stocking up on enough nic for like fifty years!! Kind of a very daunting task.
    But if it plays out that we can get Chinese gear and coils, then the only thing to do is get nic and some concentrates. Although RBAs would be very nice, too. (Sorry for thinking aloud. )

    Thanks, VU folks need to be hip to all this. :cheers: and :hug: for taking the time to write this. <—winner! :teehee:


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  17. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    They don’t give a damn about the poor teens and their supposed vaping epidemic either. Its fucked up that one of the best outcomes will be taxing vape gear and juice! But they did it with smoking.

    I tried to imagine what it would be like vaping pods, whether they’re Juul or not, and I was pretty unhappy. I’ve never tried a Juul and I hated the Smok Novo I tried. (I’m not a Smok fan, though. lol)


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  18. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    You are so right. I’ve only been vaping about 6 months now. When we tried it in 2013-ish, I never heard anything about any of this stuff. But I’ve been off cigs for 4 months and I don’t want to be tempted to go back, either.

    I really hope that the people on this forum take heed of these warnings! And folks that don’t even use this place or the other one (or even Reddit,) are pretty much fucked! It makes me want to move to the UK.


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  19. Grandpa

    Grandpa Bronze Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I'm stocking up on nic right now - got some yesterday and I'm getting another quart of it as soon as possible. I'm wondering though - will pg and vg still be available if everything shuts down? Seems like those have a lot more uses besides vape juice.

    I've got plenty of hardware if it all goes away; I DIY my coils and I've got a lot of cotton (and there is still aspirin bottle cotton if the shit hits the fan). I've got rolls and rolls of n80 and n90 clapton wire of various flavors, and I've got plenty of wire to make coil wires and a Daedalous Pro. If I want new mods and atty's, I think those will be available from the Chinee. I guess the big thing boils down to nic. I'll be giving Carolina Extraction a lot of business in the next few months I guess.
     
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  20. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    Don't get crazy because 8/8 was the Vapocalypse and here we are now. The Chinese are already sending tank parts as Steel tubes and whatnot.
     
  21. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    So far the FDA is not hitting freebase nic.
    The may date is for all other vape stuff. Mods, attys, premade juice and any stuff sold as for use in vaping. even the chipsets used in mods are vape stuff. Modders stuff like 510 connectors and such? I dunno.
    for example Lighting vapes wire will likely have issues but Temco wire will not.
    Any flavoring with vape on the label or promoted as for use with vaping can have issues. But ones that avoid that issue such as Capella will not have an issue.
    Same with cotton if sold for or has vape indications on the package...

    I do expect the FDA to go after freebase nic in the not too distant future though.
    Such as having to be a licensed Tobacco Products Manufacturer or the like to be able to buy it.
     
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  22. Time

    Time Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    It was my understanding that hardware won't be illegal to buy(import) or use by individuals for personal use(such as myself). It will be illegal to sell such things.

    I don't think it will be illegal to import nicotine either. For personal use.

    It's been awhile since I brushed up on the deeming regs though. If I'm correct that importing for personal use will still be legal and the restrictions are solely applied to retail and manufacturing within the US, importing mods, tanks, nicotine and maybe even juice should not give anyone customs problems.
     
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  23. DogMan

    DogMan VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I have been stock piling since 2013.

    Nicotine is already illegal here. But we import, with very few dramas (any incidence of seizures has been by courier companies like Toll, not government departments)

    Hiliq in China just label 100mg/200mg nic as "Vegetable Glycerine" on customs forms.

    I'm sure you'll manage.
     
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  24. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    We've never been quite this close to the actual deadline. The 8/8/18 deadline got punted into 2022 with well over a year to go.

    I also agree that Chinese hardware will be very hard to "police". But US e-liquid and nic-base suppliers, not so much...
     
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  25. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I believe that's technically correct. The TCA doesn't give the FDA the power to ban anything made or imported for personal use. But apparently other agencies to have the power to restrict such imports:
    http://www.connellycustomslaw.com/importing-tobacco-products-into-the-u-s/

    Whether you are importing tobacco products for your personal use, or for commercial purposes, the law requires that you acquire a permit from the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau first.
     
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  26. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Bah, a guy who sells or gives away most of the mods he buys isn't "stockpiling" :p

    I'm curious: How much are you paying for a liter of 100mg (fully landed cost)?

    And what's the quality like?
     
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  27. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    Rossum said that Carolina Extraction was a good place. And I basically trust him! If we don’t have nic base for SHTF, we’ll be well and truly screwed. Just wait until it’s cooler weather to buy it.


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  28. Rhianne

    Rhianne Platinum Contributor ECF Refugee

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    You’re kidding. Why couldn’t they follow England’s lead in this? So what if the battle size is 10ml, if you can buy it!


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  29. DogMan

    DogMan VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Quality is pretty good, without being up to "Premium" stuff from the States. Better than myfreedomsmokes, or RTD, but not quite nic river. Does that help?
    I've read a few reports of bad batches, or bad QC. But hiliq has always sent suitable replacement at no cost.

    Just did a costing. $55 usd nic. 30ish shipping. It takes 3 to 5 days.

    Screenshot_20190816-121411_Chrome.jpg Screenshot_20190816-121444_Chrome.jpg
     
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  30. Rooster Cogburn

    Rooster Cogburn The Right Hand of God: SWAT!!!bitches!! VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year ECF Refugee VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    I think something will happen to change this legislation making it easier for the vape manufacturers to sell their wares in the US. What will happen? I don’t know but I refuse to believe that the only option vapers will have here will be the Juul or some other BT products. Maybe just wishful thinking but the country I love, land where my father died, the country that let’s freedom ring, won’t pass a law that will be so detrimental to its citizens. I know Big Tobacco and Big Pharma will do everything possible to get this to happen but I will continue to have hope until there is none.
     
  31. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    The law has already passed, originally in the form of the Tobacco Control Act of 2009 (a.k.a. the Marlboro Protection Act). It gave the FDA Carte Blanche to regulate any new tobacco products introduced after February of 2007, and that covers every single vape product in use today. The FDA exercised began exercising its authority under that law in 2014 when it published the Deeming proposal that was finalized in 2016. So not only has the law been passed, but the defendant (the US vape industry) has already been sentenced to death. The only real question is the execution date; they keep moving it; sometimes they kick it down the road, and other times the pull it forward again. Right now, the scheduled date is May 11, 2020.
     
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  32. DogMan

    DogMan VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Maybe you can add asterisk to your constitution? And have a disclosure message at the end of the anthem, like insurance companies?
     
  33. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Sorry, I think I missed this earlier. I would consider it freeze-ready it it comes to you in glass bottles. But very few vendors are willing to ship that way due to the risk of breakage in transit. Nic base doesn't freeze solid; it just thickens up some. You can certainly put it in the freezer in plastic bottles, but that's less than optimal. Stuff leeching out of the plastic is certainly a possibility, and in addition, all plastics ares somewhat permeable to oxygen, and oxygen is bad. So the right way to store nic for the long term is in your freezer, in glass bottles.

    No worries.

    You can learn what you need to know as needed; there's no deadline for that. I had no damn clue about mixing when I ordered my first liter of nic. I can tell you the exact date I placed that order: December 31, 2013; two weeks after I quit smoking without actually intending to do so. Quite a few years earlier, I had given up on ever being able to quit, so vaping was miracle to me, and I wasn't ever going to let anyone take that miracle away.
     
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  34. Artemis

    Artemis Gold Contributor Member For 5 Years

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    This link will give you a idea of freezer ready. I won a contest a few years back and this is what I ordered. It's not bad but expensive at this vendor. I would suggest reading some reviews on nicotine across the net (ecig related) and find a source of glass bottles. Use PPE (protective personal equipment). Make sure your labels are good as well. Some of my earlier nic has some smudging from freezer.

    https://www.nicotinegiant.com/1000-ml-of-100-mg-Flavorless-Nicotine-Liquid-p/135n.htm
     
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  35. DogMan

    DogMan VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    an obvious downside of importing nic here, is north to south hemisphere. If it is not hot here, it is there

    @Rhianne rebuilding doesn't take much learning. I was vaping RDA on mechs within a month of starting vaping. And, if you can mix a beverage, you can mix eliquid
     
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  36. wildgypsy70

    wildgypsy70 My son calls me "vape mom" Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team

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    Welp, I guess it’s time to stock up on VG/PG, too. It’s in soooooo much other stuff. I really didn’t think that there’d be a target on that. Sigh......
     
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  37. Artemis

    Artemis Gold Contributor Member For 5 Years

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    I really think it will be hard to target soap makers. Maybe ecig related entities will be forced not to sell. IDK but really? PG/VG?
     
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  38. DogMan

    DogMan VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    just buy it from DIY soap companies. It's what we used to do
     
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  39. wildgypsy70

    wildgypsy70 My son calls me "vape mom" Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team

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    Good point. And I’m sure it will still be available.....just at a “hazard” shipping cost. Unreal. But, ya, we can still get the death sticks......
     
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  40. wildgypsy70

    wildgypsy70 My son calls me "vape mom" Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team

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    True, true. And on places like Amazon, it’s not labeled for vaping. It just sucks, the hoops we’re gonna have to jump through, if it’s true. Again....sigh.....
     
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  41. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Huh? Why do you think there's a hazmat shipping cost associated with PG or VG?
     
  42. wildgypsy70

    wildgypsy70 My son calls me "vape mom" Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team

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    @Just Frank mentioned it above....the FDA is looking at slapping a hazardous label on VG/PG. Unless I misread what she said? Which is very, very possible.....
     
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  43. Rooster Cogburn

    Rooster Cogburn The Right Hand of God: SWAT!!!bitches!! VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year ECF Refugee VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    Yea I knew that I just worded that wrong, but thank you for all the particulars and timelines. I should have said enforce or uphold as is. Again this is just wishful thinking because I can’t fathom how they will still sell cigarettes but ban the vast majority of vape gear. I know it’s just lots of cash from cigs that the states get and can’t operate without. I just despise a country that bans something so benign, while continuing to sell much more harmful cigarettes. It’s just wrong and the corruption it demonstrates makes me sick. When did the answer to everything become, well we will just ban it? So I just hope something will happen to make them change or eliminate this ridiculous law and give the vaping industry a stay of execution or better yet a full pardon.
     
  44. Wb80

    Wb80 -DIY-demon- VU Donator Gold Contributor

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    Full pardon or not. I will be prepped for an estimated 10 years of supplies by then with vape supplies. But i have always been a prepper. Be it survival gear and ammunition. Snd now vape.
     
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  45. Rooster Cogburn

    Rooster Cogburn The Right Hand of God: SWAT!!!bitches!! VU Donator Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year ECF Refugee VU SWAT Reddit Exile

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    I’m in decent shape with everything but nicotine. I have a couple liters in the freezer diluted to my mixing strength. When it gets closer I’ll buy a few more liters of 100mg/ml which should last me until I’m dead with instructions to bury me with whatever is left over.
     
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  46. bobnat

    bobnat VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I've been using HiLiq Nic Salts for sometime and I've never had any problem with it. When I asked if they'd relabel, they replied they'd put anything I wanted on the label. Fortunately, vaping was legalized in April in the UAE, so right now it's not an issue.
     
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  47. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    It's part because Brexshit is on the way so no-one really wants to listen to old England anymore, in fact they're this close to changing their name from United Kingdom to Divided Kingdom, we also have the TPD to worry about throughout all of European Union member states, in cohort with additional, more strict regulations being applied in some of member states (including where I live i.e. Belgium, a country no bigger than New York City alone so anti-social anti-humanitarian lobbyists typically rule on many fronts through populist politics that defy science-based logical sense), and, I heard a rumor saying you have to drown a child in a barrel of tar before you could become a member of the Royal College of Physicians so, basically, that's the whole story.
     
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  48. Rossum

    Rossum Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    A bit over 100 years ago, with the "Temperance" movement that led to Prohibition.
     
  49. Just Frank

    Just Frank Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    They're always posting news articles over there. I'll see if I can find it. It was only the one article. Not really sure what it meant or even how valid the source was.
     
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  50. wildgypsy70

    wildgypsy70 My son calls me "vape mom" Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team

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    Awesome. I would love to read it. I did a little looking around last night and didn’t find anything.
     
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