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micro coil frustration

jae

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Can we give you some shades on your avatar or something? For being the coolest Mod on the forums!!
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travanx

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Tried monkeying around with this method on a blue screwdriver and it does make a tighter coil. Ordered that cheaper pin vise, thanks for the link. Surprised that no hardware stores around me carry one.
 

MacTechVpr

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Tried monkeying around with this method on a blue screwdriver and it does make a tighter coil. Ordered that cheaper pin vise, thanks for the link. Surprised that no hardware stores around me carry one.

Congrats, a pin vise will definitely up your game. In a few days as you get the muscle memory right you'll be winding some of the tightest most precise coils you're likely ever to make. That said, you'll enjoy as close to the maximum efficiency that a microcoil can deliver without the interspace shorting (which happens to make all coils run hot and diffuse air rather than vaporizing juice). That is…if you wind with tension to the point of adhesion as I'm suggesting (winding directly off the spool). Check my other posts for pictures and more detail.

We wouldn't smoke a hot cigarette. We wouldn't vape a dripper with a loose post connect. But we do run coils that essentially do the same thing. Funny, huh? That's why I worked out this adaptation. Let's build correct electrically and get the best vape that we can.

For those just stepping' up, you're going to need a pin vise and some drill blanks (rods) to wind on. Here's a few links to start…

PIN VISE
Suncoast - Part Lookup


You're lookin' for the #50 Tool or Wire Guage drill blank, .07" (1.778mm). That is the largest size that will fit in a Protank slot (and most clearo's). Reason is, whether a tank or a dripper, you want to leave the coil in that perfect sticky state until you complete the set of the wind. The less handling the better. And, the tighter you can make the leads without disrupting the adhesion between turns and deforming the wind.

Two diameters that are useful for drippers are 2.18 and 2.5mm filling the gaps between standard SAE drill bit sizes. For those this is an excellent option…

Dremel 628-01 7 Piece Drill Bit Set - Power Rotary Tool Accessories - Amazon.com

Tap me on the shoulder here on this thread or PM me if I can be of any help.

Good luck.

:)
 
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travanx

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Just received the pin vise from Amazon and wanted to try this thing out. Drill bit doesn't quite work as I can't get the coil off, so I stuck a precision screwdriver in and that's where the finished coil comes from. Below is my first coil using this method, 10 wraps, 28g, 2mm screwdriver. Figured my new business card would make a good enough background.
 

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MacTechVpr

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Just received the pin vise from Amazon and wanted to try this thing out. Drill bit doesn't quite work as I can't get the coil off, so I stuck a precision screwdriver in and that's where the finished coil comes from. Below is my first coil using this method, 10 wraps, 28g, 2mm screwdriver. Figured my new business card would make a good enough background.

Congratz trav, it seems you nailed it on your first try. That's about typical for most of us. Not me, lol. I had to work for some days to repeat it consistently both applying too much or too little tension. The main thing is to apply a consistent tension at the point of adhesion (the point where they can't get anymore together).

It seems you reached adhesion which is what we want to see. Then when you pulse the coil you will get a uniform oxidation joining all the turns together as tightly as nature can allow. Period. Perfect microcoil. Mind you, there are imperfections in the wire and a multitude of micro gaps we can't see. But these are a small fraction compared to conventional winding, compression and torching.

To be sure you've reached adhesion, stick a pin, the flat from very small instrument screwdriver or similar between the coils and separate them slightly. If the coil snaps back into position when you withdraw it…it's behaving like a spring. The coil wants to be a coil.

Looking at your great pics it looks like you held the starting end of the wire with your hand against the pin vise. It worked. However, if you insert both the bit and the wire into the collet and clamp both down…I think you'll find that far more comfortable and secure.

:)

Looking at your second pic one can see that the starting turn is loose and rather separated from the rest which look uniformly tight. That is normal. You usually don't impart enough strain into the wire that first turn to invoke adhesion. I usually overwind at least 3 or 4 extra turns and de-wind a few from the beginning of the wind (the collet side, not the straight side) leaving just the pristine turns that I require for the wind. This can be done by pulling off the excess turns a half a turn or so at a time. You can do this by hand, tweezing them off between your fingers as you go and encouraging a straight exit from the turn as you do. Think tweezing a gift ribbon. Once practiced at this you could use a tweezer, a forceps, light needle (not heavy) to do this adding some tension to the lead to make it as straight or tight as the last turn wound. Try never to over tighten one side or lead more than the other. No point to it and it may cause the coil to skew when you tighten it down to something.

It was a great solution to use a drill bit that's perfect. Always try to get the fluted part of the drill bit down below the collect tip. If you wind on the fluted part you'll get imperfections in the coil roundness that may prevent uniform adhesion and maybe stop it from going full micro when pulsed (will light end-to-end rather than middle out). So you won't see the performance benefits of a conventional or tensioned micro.

All in all Trav an excellent effort. Kudos!

LMK if I can be of any help. And let us know how you make out.

Vape on!

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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For the rest of you. Step on up. There's a great vape waitin' for ya.

Hit me up if I can help.

Good luck.

:)
 

MKPM

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Unwrap it, wind it, pinch it, torch it, install it, wick it, vape it, make sandwich whilst watching utube tutorials.
 

MacTechVpr

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Unwrap it, wind it, pinch it, torch it, install it, wick it, vape it, make sandwich whilst watching utube tutorials.

I'll take some of whatever that wonderful brandy you're sniffin'…no need to be torching a coil that mother nature's already made perfect with tension.


IMG_0805a.jpg

But I like your spirits.

:D

Vape on!
 
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MKPM

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I'll take some of whatever that wonderful brandy you're sniffin'…no need to be torching a coil that mother nature's already made perfect with tension.


View attachment 6618

But I like your spirits.

:D

Vape on!
I sir.....LIKE FIRE!!!!! lol
Torching wire is a throwback to the eleventy bazillion genny's I've set up over the years I suppose. That is the beauty of this hobby, so many roads to the same lake!
 

MKPM

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The brandy for records sake, is Hine Extra Antique XO :cool:
 

MacTechVpr

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The brandy for records sake, is Hine Extra Antique XO :cool:

I don't know bazillion, but I like their music. I just visited your profile page and it says there franciscan is not following you and I am so relieved. I appreciate the recommendation. I'll be sure and stop in to knock one back next time iGo San Fran. I do like my Hine.

Good luck!

:D
 

pdxvapes

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Hey @MacTechVpr I have my pin-vises in hand and have tried wrapping a couple of coils since then.
Definitely need to work on not muffing my coils up during the mounting process, but I am thoroughly enjoying the grip these vises provide. I'll be editing this post later today with some photos of experiences today, thanks again for your massively helpful method.
Progess Edit;
PV-PV.jpg
Well once again I made a mess of my natural cohesion during the prebend steps with my build. Definitely still getting used to these things, I love them though and wouldn't ever take them back hahah.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Hey @MacTechVpr I have my pin-vises in hand and have tried wrapping a couple of coils since then.
Definitely need to work on not muffing my coils up during the mounting process, but I am thoroughly enjoying the grip these vises provide. I'll be editing this post later today with some photos of experiences today, thanks again for your massively helpful method.

Congratz again and glad to hear it. You build consistency over a few days. And you'll tell me when you feel adhesion kicks in. The human brain is an amazing thing. Learning the instincts for keeping that perception takes both observation and discipline. To preserve that pristine and physically perfect geometry until pulsing and perfection...

• Always keep the coil on the mandrel it was wound; and,
• Always find a way to keep the end turns buttressed or supported.

That is, particularly, when you apply pressure or tension to that side of the coil…either pulling or pushing.

Use your creativity for techniques and tools to say keep the end turn from loosening or losing contact part way round as you set the negative. These are skills which are individual. I have tips but you'll develop your own and perhaps better for your needs.

You have the means to the most perfect shape nature can afford. Now keep it.

Once you marry up the perfect wind and the skills to support the integrity of it you will build the most absolutely perfect coils ever. Trust me. Indistinguishable from any of the very best here on these pages or elsewhere.

Back at ya soon.

Good luck.

:)
 

MKPM

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Most good hardware stores will have metal dowels in various metals. As I am a chain mailler, I have a set of metric carbon steel mandrels, but they are quite long.
 

Zamazam

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Is there a trick to keep a micro coil from separating when installing? I typically do a 9/10 wrap on 3/32" drill bit and frequently end up with the coil separating when pushing the wire through the posts. I know they need to be placed a bit further away from the post to keep this from happening, but no matter how far away I attempt to install I still end up with the separation too often.

Take a tweezers or needle nose pliers and squish the coil together and take a small torch and heat the coil up (in the needle nose pliers) till it glows red. Let it cool and your coil will be formed and ready to install without spreading out.
 

mark

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Thanks again for the props. Are you the same otd on that other forum? lol

I've been trying to get things kickstarted on the underground but things are lagging. It's frustrating watching folks keep on pokin' around at getting it right, gloss right over things and miss the very simplest (and correct electrically) way of doin' it.

Could use some help, as you did, and thanks.

Good luck.

:)
 

mark

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MacTechVpr. I have read, and re-read your posts over, and over. You are some kind of genius! Hat's off to you. Right now I don't have all of the necessary components to get started. But as soon as I do, I will give it a shot. Still not sure if I have enough brain matter to fully comprehend all of your wisdom. But at 55 I will just have to make do. Thanks So much for your help. Take care. Mark
 
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MacTechVpr

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I'm just trying to pass along a simple idea…we can put together a coherent circuit in seconds with a little help from nature and some inexpensive parts. No complicated thumbscrews, no multiple mandrels, less risk to the coil, whole lot less fiddly and it does what we need it to do with a great deal less risk of shorts to gear and fudging the vape than an asymmetrical hand wind.

While applying tension as an adaptation was my conception of how to get this done, industry figured out the winding approach (a pin vise) as the most efficient and economical way to do it generations ago. Why are we tinkering here with electronics no longer used anywhere else?

People, just go for it! It's the baseline. What tells you what your device can get. Not sayin' this is the optimal way to wind or vape. Just the right place to start.

Good luck all.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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MacTechVpr. I have read, and re-read your posts over, and over. You are some kind of genius! Hat's off to you. Right now I don't have all of the necessary components to get started. But as soon as I do, I will give it a shot. Still not sure if I have enough brain matter to fully comprehend all of your wisdom. But at 55 I will just have to make do. Thanks So much for your help. Take care. Mark


Even with a simple screwdriver holding the wire with tape and feeding directly off the spool it's easy and takes seconds…


IMG_0567a.jpg


IMG_0608a.jpg


However a pin vise and drill bits or drill blanks affords for leverage and control. Once you get that baseline, you get spoiled and it's repeatability and performance.

Good luck.

:)
 

mark

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Even with a simple screwdriver holding the wire with tape and feeding directly off the spool it's easy and takes seconds…


View attachment 7203


View attachment 7202


However a pin vise and drill bits or drill blanks affords for leverage and control. Once you get that baseline, you get spoiled and it's repeatability and performance.

Good luck.

:)
All I can say is Amazing! Now, is there any chance you may be making a video?
 

MacTechVpr

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A good part of my consumer wicking/winding research this past year has been about that…how best to demonstrate the use of this simple tech. I've done a tremendous number of these even more with interns and others I've taught. It makes sense to me that everyday people who have learned to do it right and simply is best. No talking heads, no rah-rah, no interjecting our own errors. Yes, videos have been made and we all tend to do the last thing, interpret. And that's where things can go a bit or a long way sideways. So that's a good question Mark. How best to do this thing. I've helped hundreds across the internet with posts, video clips, by phone, Skype, hookup to other t.m.c. users…we do what we need to do. I just ask folks to try it. Once you do you'll be able to hit that old reliable…the simple durable 1.8 or whatever it is you like when you need it. It's what everything is measured against. The vape you can count on.

Stay in touch we'll try and get you what you need once you're ready with the vin vise and bit. Directly off the coil is best so even 25' of your fav Ø wire will get you started whether it's for a clearo, Kay, dripper, etc.

Tap us on the shoulder and we'll get started. Wind first.

Good luck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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I'm going to try and capture a couple of clips made by others, segments. That may be helpful to avoid adding opinion. You have plenty of time to refine your preferences once the dang thing works.

Believe me I had to REMOVE a lot of my own [prejudices] to get it right. We all do it. Get tarnished by what we see. Mostly previous failure which we insist on repeating. Remove those kinds of artifacts and what's left is simple and just right. Not too much, not too little.

I call it being the coil.

LOL

:)
 

mark

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This is Amazing! So much information to take in. So much to absorb. I am trying my best to keep up. It's as if you have re-invented the wheel. Continue thinking out of the box. Thanks So much.
 

mark

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Is there anyway I could purchase some of your coils? To maybe get a idea on how to Try, and make some myself? If not, I understand. Take care.
 

Dampgebied

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I'm going to try and capture a couple of clips made by others, segments. That may be helpful to avoid adding opinion. You have plenty of time to refine your preferences once the dang thing works.

Believe me I had to REMOVE a lot of my own [prejudices] to get it right. We all do it. Get tarnished by what we see. Mostly previous failure which we insist on repeating. Remove those kinds of artifacts and what's left is simple and just right. Not too much, not too little.

I call it being the coil.

LOL

:)
Hey Mac,
Awesome post about being coils and all but I was wondering... I've been vaping the Rose V2 and whenever I try to tighten a perfectly wound microcoil (trust me, it wants to be a coil!) , the thing gets screwed because of the forced diagonal setup. No problems whatsoever with my kayfun. And here's the funny thing, if I try to pinch the coils together after I test fire, they seem to widen instead of getting tighter. Any ideas what causes this?
 
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Prsurf2k

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"Believe me I had to REMOVE a lot of my own [prejudices] to get it right. We all do it. Get tarnished by what we see. Mostly previous failure which we insist on repeating. Remove those kinds of artifacts and what's left is simple and just right. Not too much, not too little.

I call it being the coil." By : MacTechVpr


That was Zen like there.... Awsome "Being the coil"
 

MacTechVpr

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I've seen the Rose several times. Beautiful atty and I adore ceramic base devices. My favorite is the Immortalizer and I own four originals. But the Rose is a bitch man. I had to revisit Richard Ng's rebuild of the Rose v2 to visualize this.

First, because of the narrow slots on the ceramic cup you can't keep the mandrel used for the wind to localize the coil in the set. Therein is the crux of the problem. To get optimal alumina oxide adhesion provides the closest fit. Disrupt that relationship and you no longer have that symmetry of the coil necessary for uniform oxidation. You may get close but it's not the best you might have achieved. Definitely not if it's unwinding or separating when heated.

When you tension the wind upwards, which seems essential here to keep the tension balanced on the leads, you impart a diagonal tension across the wind potentially increasing the bias angle. If this happens you lose the turn-to-turn cohesion, imparting more energy than was originally input to achieve adhesion of the turns. You no longer have a tensioned microcoil.

My only suggestion might be to lay it in delicately and pulse the coil very gradually squeezing it until its solid before the final position set. A larger gauge may be helpful to conserve the geometry. Start with low voltage, a slightly discharged battery. No more than 3.3-3.5v to start. Twisted, my fav, is out. But with a bit of care you can still take advantage of the vaporization efficiency and durability of a t.m.c. Just a bit more of a challenge for you.

As you must rely on a mandrel other than the original to support the coil as you orient the leads and final position set be very careful not to apply too much upwards tension. It is ever so easy to reduce the Ø of the outside turns after all that careful work.

If you love this atty and this fails to work for you, PM me in the near future. I'm working on a wind which may be a solution for this situation. Not sure it's ready for prime time yet. Stay tuned.

Good luck Prsurf2k.

:)
 
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Lefty

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It's really not much different than a dripper build where the coil is narrower than the posts. I just use a 1/16" or equivalent mandrel which fits nicely into the slots so you keep it on the original while working with it. Slightly smaller diameter and slightly wider width to achieve your desired resistance. A little adjustment on the legs to reduce the tendency to spread. I respect Mac's viewpoint on this but I've found that re-inserting the mandrel after that first pulsing if the results aren't perfect and a very light tug gives nice results on that next pulse. I'm quite enjoying vaping on the result in the Rose as I type. YMMV.
 
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MacTechVpr

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It's really not much different than a dripper build where the coil is narrower than the posts. I just use a 1/16" or equivalent mandrel which fits nicely into the slots so you keep it on the original while working with it. Slightly smaller diameter and slightly wider width to achieve your desired resistance. A little adjustment on the legs to reduce the tendency to spread. I respect Mac's viewpoint on this but I've found that re-inserting the mandrel after that first pulsing if the results aren't perfect and a very light tug gives nice results on that next pulse. I'm quite enjoying vaping on the result in the Rose as I type. YMMV.

I kinda agree with you there lefty. A couple of pulses and some deft bends of the leads might just be enough. That was nature of my diplomatic answer. I don't recommend torching. It would seem he' using larger than a 16th Ø (or wants to) or he wouldn't have experienced the bias expansion. Firming up the wire a bit before doing as you suggest would maybe be the stopgap. <shrug> Thanks for the nod. And I'm getting awfully challenged to try one of these (as if I didn't have enough unbuilt tanks already).

Good luck all.

Enjoy the vape.

:)
 

Dampgebied

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I've seen the Rose several times. Beautiful atty and I adore ceramic base devices. My favorite is the Immortalizer and I own four originals. But the Rose is a bitch man. I had to revisit Richard Ng's rebuild of the Rose v2 to visualize this.

First, because of the narrow slots on the ceramic cup you can't keep the mandrel used for the wind to localize the coil in the set. Therein is the crux of the problem. To get optimal alumina oxide adhesion provides the closest fit. Disrupt that relationship and you no longer have that symmetry of the coil necessary for uniform oxidation. You may get close but it's not the best you might have achieved. Definitely not if it's unwinding or separating when heated...

:)
Thanks Mac, I have to say that after reading al your posts about the tensioned micros , it kind of added a new dimension to my vaping. Been teaching it to a couple of friends and unanimously their first reaction was a grin from ear to ear, followed by a 'No way man!'. So again, thanks a bunch.
 

MacTechVpr

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Thanks Mac, I have to say that after reading al your posts about the tensioned micros , it kind of added a new dimension to my vaping. Been teaching it to a couple of friends and unanimously their first reaction was a grin from ear to ear, followed by a 'No way man!'. So again, thanks a bunch.

Nothin' like letting nature do the work for us D. I'm not just teaching a wind technique. I'm passing on an attribute of nature that cures our vape. Lessens shorts and guarantees the maximum thermal efficiency (for vaporization). It's a baseline we can hit consistently. The vape we can rely upon. From these gates of vape heaven adventure flows.

And thank you D. There's nothing I'd like to see more than this technique spread far and wide. To make a solid vape as simple and as accessible as possible to new vapers.

Good luck.

:)
 
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mark

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Either I am to old, or there is just not enough brain matter left for me to fully understand your concept. So, instead of me asking multiple questions, and wasting your time, I think it's time to throw in the towel. But good luck to you. I'm sure your technique is going to change so many things for the better. Take care.
 

LoveVanilla

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Mark, the concept is pretty simple. Rather than loose wrapping of coils that will subsequent spring apart, apply good tension to the wire when you are wrapping and carefully place the coils next to each other. The result will be coils that don't need to be subsequent heating and compression.

If you you lack the manual dexterity or feel to do so, an inexpensive tool (and widely available) that will get you the results is the "Artistic Wire Coiling Gizmo Deluxe Winder" for Jewelry Making. I'm a rookie coil builder but getting near perfect results after a dozen or so coils. BTW, I also use a desktop magnifier with lamp.
 

LoveVanilla

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Mark, MacTechVpr, RipTripper, etc. are masters but with basic tools the rest of us can keep up. I also purchased a pin vise but having such great results wrapping from the spool (as MacTech shows) onto the Gizmo, I actually haven't used. Results are really good -- give it a try.

And thanks Mac for getting me on the right path, proper tension when wrapping is absolutely the key.
 

MrScaryZ

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Thanks for your like Caff. Nice set. Love duals. A bit hard to master in getting the balance. It's about symmetry. Disparity in resistance gets you an uneven vape and often spoils the build. But I gotta tell ya it couldn't be easier with the tensioned m.c.'s I'm talkin' about. There is just enough precision in the human hand to tell exactly when adhesion happens. Then the coil behaves like a screen door spring. It wants to be a microcoil. Unlike a coil that was forced into its shape by external energy, it had the energy and shape imparted to it internally. Net result it's about as uniform as it could be (so long as you don't trash it too much setting it). When you pulse it that's when the magic happens. The alumina oxide layers which insulate this continuous short occur coherently forcing a fusion of the layers turn-to-turn. Except for imperfections in the wire it's as perfectly tight as it can get. What's that mean for resistance? Well for one, predictable. And that reproducible outcome means you'll get a lot of sets that fire microcoil the first time and together. Those are the kind of odds I like.

Tap me on the shoulder anytime if you give it a try and need a shout out.

Good luck.

:)

p.s. Speaking of hot legs…here's a pair of twisted-leg parallels I did this evening. Twisting stabilizes the parallels which are fidgety to begin with and helps deter shorting. Makes for an easier install. You'll have to wait for surprise on performance when you tension a wind and try this…


View attachment 4234
What guage is that twisted? looks like 22?
 

Dampgebied

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Mark, the concept is pretty simple. Rather than loose wrapping of coils that will subsequent spring apart, apply good tension to the wire when you are wrapping and carefully place the coils next to each other. The result will be coils that don't need to be subsequent heating and compression.

If you you lack the manual dexterity or feel to do so, an inexpensive tool (and widely available) that will get you the results is the "Artistic Wire Coiling Gizmo Deluxe Winder" for Jewelry Making. I'm a rookie coil builder but getting near perfect results after a dozen or so coils. BTW, I also use a desktop magnifier with lamp.
Hey Vanilla,
with the winding rods provided with the Gizmo thing, it seems that you're either winding a nano-coil (1.5mm) or a mini coil (3mm). I kinda like my coils at about 2mm, do they provide 2 mm rods as far as you know?
 

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