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Mixing Kanthal and SS for Core wires - Clapton

iamadrunkguy

Member For 4 Years
Just a quick question. Has anyone had first hand experience mixing the two for core wires? I'm low on wire but want to build a triple core clapton. 2x SS 26ga, 1kan 26ga, wrapped with 38ga kanthal. I just want to know if it severely hurts output or any dangers involved? I searched but found only wrapping clapton with diff coil than cores, so I assume it would be ok but want to ask. Thanks !!!!!
 

HondaDavidson

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Done plenty of staged para builds.. it works. If you get the ballance right... not done mixed materials but have done plenty of mixed guage kanthal builds.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
 

gbalkam

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Just a quick question. Has anyone had first hand experience mixing the two for core wires? I'm low on wire but want to build a triple core clapton. 2x SS 26ga, 1kan 26ga, wrapped with 38ga kanthal. I just want to know if it severely hurts output or any dangers involved? I searched but found only wrapping clapton with diff coil than cores, so I assume it would be ok but want to ask. Thanks !!!!!

No benefit at all to this type of build Basically, electricity follows the path of least resistance. So if you had 1 kanthal core and 1 ss core, all your current would go through the SS, and the Kanthal would get heat from the SS wire, and none from the current. You would get more benefit from a single core clapton with kanthal core and ss wrap.
 

gbalkam

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its fine to mix core materials, as long as your resistance is gonna work at the end :cheers:
Both core wires would need to be exactly the same resistance, with is hard if not impossible unless you extrude your own wire. IOW.. it would take aprox 4 feet of 26 ga ss wire to match the resistance of 1 foot of kanthal. So you would have to use a twisted kanthal core with the ss, and calcualate how many strands and twists are exactly needed to match the resistance of the SS wire used. Further.. I used 4 to 1 as an aprox example, it is not precise, just an approximation, whereas the resistance of the ss and kanthal cores would need to be exact. (and im to lazy to do the math.. lol)
 

iamadrunkguy

Member For 4 Years
Both core wires would need to be exactly the same resistance, with is hard if not impossible unless you extrude your own wire. IOW.. it would take aprox 4 feet of 26 ga ss wire to match the resistance of 1 foot of kanthal. So you would have to use a twisted kanthal core with the ss, and calcualate how many strands and twists are exactly needed to match the resistance of the SS wire used. Further.. I used 4 to 1 as an aprox example, it is not precise, just an approximation, whereas the resistance of the ss and kanthal cores would need to be exact. (and im to lazy to do the math.. lol)

Thanks! Sounds like too much math!! :gaah:I didn't end up mixing them, went straight SS cores and kanthal wrap. I'm going to wait until my SS 28ga comes in.:):drunk:
 

gbalkam

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A way around all that, would be use a Kanthal core and wrap the core with 32ga ss and 32ga kanthal (side by side) if your goal was to heat the juice at different levels. ss transfers heat faster than nichrome.
 
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mach1ne

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Member For 4 Years
Both core wires would need to be exactly the same resistance, with is hard if not impossible unless you extrude your own wire. IOW.. it would take aprox 4 feet of 26 ga ss wire to match the resistance of 1 foot of kanthal. So you would have to use a twisted kanthal core with the ss, and calcualate how many strands and twists are exactly needed to match the resistance of the SS wire used. Further.. I used 4 to 1 as an aprox example, it is not precise, just an approximation, whereas the resistance of the ss and kanthal cores would need to be exact. (and im to lazy to do the math.. lol)
he asked if
it severely hurts output or any dangers involved
the answer is no. it just gives a staged heating effect. whether that is a benefit or a hindrance to performance will depend on factors like wire material etc. it will not severely hurt anything, anyone, or be dangerous, and there is nothing wrong with trying it out and learning how things work :cheers:

wrap the core with 32ga
please do not use 32 gauge wrap for any reason other than polishing. 36 is the largest recommended.
 

gbalkam

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he asked if

the answer is no. it just gives a staged heating effect. whether that is a benefit or a hindrance to performance will depend on factors like wire material etc. it will not severely hurt anything, anyone, or be dangerous, and there is nothing wrong with trying it out and learning how things work :cheers:


please do not use 32 gauge wrap for any reason other than polishing. 36 is the largest recommended.

I only use 32ga to wrap, due to that is as fine as I can see.
though 32ga is the highest ga recommended. Many professional builders often use 32ga.
And pre-coiled spools are wrapped in 32ga. Including what I am vaping now, made by GeekVape. (pain in the ass to build with though due to resistance / wattage issues)

So I also checked that "least resistance" part. Apparently,
electricity takes all paths available — in inverse proportion to the impedance of the paths. The magnitude of the current flowing in a path depends on the path's voltage and impedance. (google)

So apparently, with proper calculation, staged heating would be possible, provided you allowed enough current to heat wire 1 without melting wire 2. I'm far to lazy to calculate this. lol.
 

mach1ne

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I only use 32ga to wrap, due to that is as fine as I can see.
though 32ga is the highest ga recommended. Many professional builders often use 32ga.
And pre-coiled spools are wrapped in 32ga. Including what I am vaping now, made by GeekVape. (pain in the ass to build with though due to resistance / wattage issues)
32 is too much insulation, and is very inefficient to power/heat up. smaller wrap gauges will give all the benefits of wrap wire (added surface area/pockets/grooves/temp variation) but dramatically reduce the ramp up/down and power required (compared to 32) to get a good vape. i work with a lot of wire i cant see properly, but you can trust the angle you are holding the wrap at as you make your claptons. if you are already building your own, give 36 or 38 a shot some time. if you hold the spool on a perfect 90 degree angle to the core wire, and then back toward your drill a bit, you will get clean wraps no matter how small the wire is. there is like a ~10 degree window back there in between doubling back over itself (too far back) and the wraps not touching eachother (too far forward). if you hold that angle from start to finish you will get clean wraps no matter what. just adjust your up/down angle until you catch some light on the wire so you can see the angle better.

i have never seen a pro builder use 32, only chinese factory coils. if you are buying pre-mades, i have seen some on ft or 3fv (maybe both) that have up to 40 gauge wrap. try those out (36 at the lowest). they should always work better than something with 32 gauge wrap.

So apparently, with proper calculation, staged heating would be possible, provided you allowed enough current to heat wire 1 without melting wire 2. I'm far to lazy to calculate this. lol.
yeah the math is hard, but its easy to experiment and see what happens first hand. i have never heard of anyone 'melting wire 2'. the only limit to mixing up wire types and trying new builds is a safe resistance for whatever mod/batteries you are using. there are lots of people in the post your builds thread using staged heating and other techniques to try to get a different/better result. lots of fancier builds have different strands or stacks of mixed materials, combined in different ways to get different types of vapes. come have a look around, you might pick up some new builds to try, or techniques to experiment with :cheers:
 

gbalkam

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32 is too much insulation, and is very inefficient to power/heat up. smaller wrap gauges will give all the benefits of wrap wire (added surface area/pockets/grooves/temp variation) but dramatically reduce the ramp up/down and power required (compared to 32) to get a good vape. i work with a lot of wire i cant see properly, but you can trust the angle you are holding the wrap at as you make your claptons. if you are already building your own, give 36 or 38 a shot some time. if you hold the spool on a perfect 90 degree angle to the core wire, and then back toward your drill a bit, you will get clean wraps no matter how small the wire is. there is like a ~10 degree window back there in between doubling back over itself (too far back) and the wraps not touching eachother (too far forward). if you hold that angle from start to finish you will get clean wraps no matter what. just adjust your up/down angle until you catch some light on the wire so you can see the angle better.

i have never seen a pro builder use 32, only chinese factory coils. if you are buying pre-mades, i have seen some on ft or 3fv (maybe both) that have up to 40 gauge wrap. try those out (36 at the lowest). they should always work better than something with 32 gauge wrap.


yeah the math is hard, but its easy to experiment and see what happens first hand. i have never heard of anyone 'melting wire 2'. the only limit to mixing up wire types and trying new builds is a safe resistance for whatever mod/batteries you are using. there are lots of people in the post your builds thread using staged heating and other techniques to try to get a different/better result. lots of fancier builds have different strands or stacks of mixed materials, combined in different ways to get different types of vapes. come have a look around, you might pick up some new builds to try, or techniques to experiment with :cheers:

Of course you haven't heard of "melting wire 2" Say SS is wire 1 and kanthal is wire 2.. the power required to heat both wires at the same time, would be to hot for the higher resistance wire.

Compare:
6 wraps 20ga kanthal on a 3mm id core.. = 190 watts to achieve 400 mm/mw2 (heat flux) at 0.13 ohm (dual coil) vs...
6 wraps 20ga SS316L on a 3mm id core.. = 183 watts to achieve 400 mm/mw2 (heat flux) 0.065 ohm (dual coil)
The problem is.. in order to push 190w through the kanthal, you would also have to push 366w through the SS due to the more conductive nature of the SS. in order to raise the heat flux of the kanthal.

math is making my head hurt. lol.
 

mach1ne

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Member For 4 Years
Of course you haven't heard of "melting wire 2"
so why bring it up? you previously said it would melt the wire without the proper calculations. i am trying to tell you and anyone reading this, that it wont (under normal and safe circumstances/store bought vape gear/within the cdr of your batteries etc). people do this all the time. its not a new technique, its a proven way to increase the ramp up times of poorly performing coils. mixing wire materials is also a good way to adjust your builds resistance to hit your target better. there is no reason to warn people away from it, or imply that wire will melt or otherwise present a danger to anyone, or require a bunch of math and calculations.

The problem is.. in order to push 190w through the kanthal, you would also have to push 366w through the SS due to the more conductive nature of the SS. in order to raise the heat flux of the kanthal.
we are not trying to make them have the same heat flux, which as your examples have shown, would be impossible on any normal vape gear. if they had the same heat flux, it wouldnt be 'staged heating' it would be 'uniform heating' which is what most coils do by default. the idea is that the hotter of the two heat fluxes helps to increase the speed that the slower one heats up in the event that the cooler one is not performing the way you want because its too cold.
 

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