New to DIY Juice, questions re: mixing by weight vs volume

[VinnySem]

Hey gang, I'm looking into DIY e-juice, been reading some articles & posts, and I have some questions about mixing by weight vs volume, as that will determine the equipment I buy (0.001 gram scale, etc). Let me preface my questions by saying that I have a lot of years of past experience mixing chemicals by weight; in a former profession I worked as a perfumer and QC analyst at a fragrance manufacturing company, I'm familiar with chemical mixing practices and procedures, working from a formula, etc. However, we always mixed by weight with highly accurate professional grade 0.0001 gram sensitive scales.

With mixing by weight, and using some of the calculator tools listed on this site and others, that take into account specific gravity of the ingredients, wouldn't mixing by weight with a good scale and a calculator software, be as accurate (or even more so) than by volume with a syringe? Or is the main reason that I see lots of DIY'ers mixing by volume is that syringes cost significantly less than a highly accurate high precision scale and can be washed out & re-used?

Also, I've seen posts saying "don't get a DIY starter kit" but this kit is pretty reasonably priced and includes a lot of stuff to get up & running (note: I wouldn't get the flavor packs they list, looking at FA flavors and using some of HIC's recipes posted here).
http://www.myfreedomsmokes.com/nico...-flasks-cylinders/diy-mixing-starter-kit.html

Thanks for the insight!

 

[AmandaD]

I think most people start DIY with syringes because they're what most people seem to use. Many of us here use an inexpensive ($15) scale from Amazon that measures 0.01, and that seems to do the job just fine!

 

[SailCat]

Welcome to the VU forum, VinnySem!

The reason for counter-recommending the kits is that it will invariably have items you don't need or will never use. because of that , while it is convenient, it is almost always more economical to purchase items separately. In addition, you'll get ehat is recommended by the real DIYers rather than what the vendor wants you to buy.

You're in a great group, If you follow the advice of experienced DIYers you won't go wrong.

 

[zaroba]

I've always mixed by volume, simply because it's how I learned.
Have done quite a bit of reading up on mixing by weight in the past week and was thinking of switching.

But, from what I can tell, both methods have drawbacks, neither is 100% accurate.

Mixing by volume seems easier to be off when doing small batches.
If mixing 10ml and you need 1% something, then just a few extra drops could easily increase that 0.1ml of flavor to 0.12ml. 1.2% vs 1% flavoring can effect the taste of a batch. Especially if using something like a 10ml syringe instead of using a 1ml syringes with 0.01ml markings. However, that extra 0.02ml in a 200ml bottle wont be noticeable, it's just 0.01% extra flavoring. Even though using larger syringes for the larger bottles, you still might only be off by a fraction of a ML and overall, still just a small fraction of a percent and likely not noticeable.

Conversely, Mixing by weight can be off as well since the specific gravity of *every* flavoring isn't known and people assume 1gram per 1ml for the unknowns. But if people guess 1gram per ml of something that is really 1.2 grams per ml, then any mixture will have 20% less then needed of that flavoring. Something needing 1% would end up with 0.8% of that flavor no matter the size of the batch and a 0.2% difference in flavoring may give a noticeable difference in taste.


As I said though, I've never mixed by weight, so don't immediately take that weight comment as 100% accurate.
If anybody that does mix by weight sees anything wrong with my above statement, please correct me.

 

[VinnySem]

I see your point about the S.G. of the flavorings... but let me ask you, if you're working with all ingredients in the same unit of measure, say grams/milligrams in the case of weight, then does the S.G. even come into play at all? Disgregard volume completely for a moment; if I set out to make say, a 100 gram batch of something, and I follow the recipe as percentages of that 100 grams, then the ingredients would be in the correct amounts. Depending on the FINAL S.G. of the batch (which would depend on the PG/VG ratio, I like 50/50) I may be over or under 100ml... but does that matter, really?

 

[zaroba]

You have a good point.
Guess my statement really only applies to converting a percentage recipe to a weight recipe.
Somebody that creates a new recipe from scratch using weight wouldn't have an issue.

 

[VinnySem]

That is a good point; I wonder if the original recipe was created by volume, and then someone followed it via weight, would the ratios still be the same?

When I do start DIY'ing I will likely start by volume so I don't have to spring for a scale, but eventually I would like to by weight only because that's what I'm familiar with.

 

[novazz32yahoo.com]

I think most people start DIY with syringes because they're what most people seem to use. Many of us here use an inexpensive ($15) scale from Amazon that measures 0.01, and that seems to do the job just fine!

thanks i will have to try this your mix would have to be more consistent thanks vape on

 

[AmandaD]

thanks i will have to try this your mix would have to be more consistent thanks vape on

Nope, no more consistent than mixing with syringes (which I used to do). Just easier and faster with less clean up - in my opinion!

 

[novazz32yahoo.com]

ok that makes sense it's been a long week thanks for the get back jim

 

[Kinser]

In general the reason that it is not advisable to purchase a kit is economics. That MFS kit only has a few items that one really wouldn't need, strangely the nicotine solution is one of them. I prefer my nicotine to be all one thing or the other, to not over complicate the mixing process as about half the time I don't use a calculator. Also the tri-pour beakers look flimsy and I prefer to use a funnel for bottling. As to the gloves, it is recommended that people wear gloves while mixing, but I don't. Hand washing is vital but I guarantee you that no diy kit comes with a sink with running water and a bottle (or bar) of your favorite soap. My feelings are that the dangers of nicotine base are highly exaggerated (and yes I've spilled nicotine base on myself before) and as such gloves are optional. In short not buying a kit is smart because you'll buy what you need and not what some vendor wants you to buy. It may or may not be cheaper, but the end result is that as a mixer you'll be happier.

As for mixing by weight, the advantages are only really seen in two extremes, mixing really small batches (often when one is developing a juice) and mixing really large batches. Unless you're selling juice there is no reason to be mixing juice in gallon batches. I rarely mix more than 120ml (4 US Fl oz) per recipe per time. Using syringes for flavorings is necessary unless they have dropper bottles and only some companies package that way. As such you may as well run volume and weight together on your calculator (assuming you otherwise mix by weight). If you are mixing by weight you could use disposable pipettes. Personally I use pipettes for dealing with menthol and koolada because both leave a residue in the pipette or dropper bottle.

Mixing by volume using syringes is a pain for VG. VG is rather thick having the consistency of corn syrup so it rather doesn't like to be sucked up in a syringe. That said, pouring vg into a graduated cylinder or beaker is perfectly fine. Myself I use a graduated cylinder and a funnel to mix by volume, as well as just a few syringes for flavoring compounds (excluding menthol and koolada--for reasons mentioned above).

If you choose to mix by weight, a scale that reads 0.01g is perfectly fine. In general I would only recommend that people mix by weight if they feel more comfortable doing so. My system works fine for me, so I'm following my rule of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".

 

[Scy123]

If you have android and interested in mixing by weight you should try the Liquix ejuice calculator. I shows the recipe by volume and weight and it takes into account the different density's. Also shows you the cost of the juice, which is great.

 

[jambi]

Just random ramblings...YMMV.

Mixing by weight, I worry not about accuracy, ie: specific gravities of flavors, but rather strive for consistency, ie: using the same 1 ml = 1 gram constant. My end goal is to create liquid that tastes good and can be replicated simply and quickly. For that, mixing by weight is the only way to go. Further streamlined by pre-mixing nic/vg/pg in 500 ml batches. I already know the weight of 5, 10, 30 or whatever mls of my base. To that I subtract whatever % of flavors using the 1 ml = 1 gram constant. With 1 = 1 I can do most of the math in my head.

I have over 200 flavors in my inventory now. The first 30 flavors I acquired, Yep...I spent hours looking up specific gravities for them and entering into my calc. Not fun. Never Again!

I was really hung up on accuracy and specific gravity and all that when I started. I sincerely believed it was wrong to do it any other way than "accurate", but didn't realize that this isn't rocket science, all the syringes and graduated cylinders just made it appear that way. It's more like cooking, actually.

I tested my unicorn milk clone (5 flavors). 2 batches, 1st using exact specific gravities, 2nd using 1 to 1. Any difference? No perceptible difference to me. Quantity wise, the difference usually equates to 100ths of a gram, which my scale can't even measure. That's like, a fraction of a drop, there's no way to accurately measure it, scale or syringe, and why would I want to? It doesn't make a difference in the finished product, and even if it did, it wouldn't be enough to be definable as success vs. failure.

So, everything mixed from bottles into bottles on the scale. I keep most of my flavorings in 10 and 30 ml dropper bottles. Flavors that I use a lot of, I generally have a little bottle and a big (bulk) bottle. If that bulk bottle doesn't have a dropper top, I break out the pipettes to refill the little bottle. The only syringe I use is for the nicotine solution when I make my base.

Sounds like a lot of bottle juggling, but it's actually fast, much faster than when I was screwing around with syringes,containers, and having to wash everything all the time. Typical recipe takes 2 to 5 minutes to mix, depending on how many flavors, and regardless of quantity, with no cleanup (well...put the bottles back in the cabinet).

Without my scale, I'd be screwed...though I started DIY mixing by volume like most everyone else. Switching to weight turned DIY from tedium into great fun.

Is 1=1 "numerically" accurate? Nope. Does it affect the final product? Nope. Do my taste buds care? Nope!

 

[jambi]

I see your point about the S.G. of the flavorings... but let me ask you, if you're working with all ingredients in the same unit of measure, say grams/milligrams in the case of weight, then does the S.G. even come into play at all? Disgregard volume completely for a moment; if I set out to make say, a 100 gram batch of something, and I follow the recipe as percentages of that 100 grams, then the ingredients would be in the correct amounts. Depending on the FINAL S.G. of the batch (which would depend on the PG/VG ratio, I like 50/50) I may be over or under 100ml... but does that matter, really?

If you created the recipe via taste testing using that same method, it wouldn't matter. Consistency. But...

SG does come into play with VG and (most importantly) nic in VG base. VG has an SG of 1.26.

Your calc should already know the sg of VG and PG, and the sg of your nic base, depending on its strength and whether it's VG, PG or both based. So, it'll calculate the weight/ml for you.

Example, my base is 70 vg / 30 pg, 3mg nic in VG. 10 mls of my (unflavored) base weighs 11.743 grams. That's calculated using the known sg of VG, PG and Nic, already programmed into my juice calc.

Flavorings can be messed with, but I would rely on the calc to insure your VG, PG and especially nic levels are where you want them.

Just for example, a list of SG's for some of FlavourArt's flavorings is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/2jh5cl/byweight_mixers_i_got_some_densities_from/
Notice that they're all in the 1.00 to 1.05 range. If the SGs were money, it would equate to fractions of a cent on a dollar.