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Organic ejuice: Is it a scam? Healthier than premium juice?

Discussion in 'Ejuice / Flavor Discussions' started by VapingCuban, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. VapingCuban

    VapingCuban Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Came across a shop today that had all organic juice. Pretty tasteful I might add. He had a strawberry/kiwi juice that was phenomenal. Tasted like the real thing. Good price around $13.99 for a 30 ml bottle considering most organic juice companies I've come across have been hovering around the $20+ mark. The guy also boasted that he buys the juice from a company that has a ejuice lab that is in complience to fda standards and his bottles even showed a batch number but no born date. Which makes me question... is organic juice a scam? Who sells organic flavoring? can you use organic flavoring in diy? the shop owner didn't really convince me as being too knowledgeable about what's in a premium juice. Talking about how other premium flavors that are not organic use things like peanut oil? Peanut oil? Come again? Lol has anyone ever heard of peanut oil used in ejuice? I look at him in disbelieve and I just wanted to say brother you talking to an advanced knowledgeable vaper. Lol he hardly had mods except some k100s and an mvp. He mostly sold egos and was trying to sell a tank he called the best tank out in the market which no one in Florida yet had called the atomic that comes in single coil tanks or dual coil tanks. When I told him I doubt it'll match up to a kayfun he dismissed the notion saying the atomic will never leak or gurgle on you. Enough with my rant. What yall think on organic ejuice?
     
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  2. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    Bout the same I think about that store owner! Arsenic is a natural occuring substance, but I don't want to vape it! Did you ask the store owner how they ensure that their product is organic? And I could be wrong on this point, IDK, but I didn't think the FDA standards for e-juice labs have been established yet, so how could they be compliant in them???
     
  3. flowerpots

    flowerpots Silver Contributor

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    Depends on what 'Organic' means.

    That e-juice lab could be Nude Nicotine.

    There are oils used in some juices, but it's rare, and it's usually sweet almond oil, or something similar, not peanut oil that I've ever heard of.

    Instead of being concerned with 'organic' you need to be concerned about diketones and their derivatives (diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl propionyl). These are not safe for inhalation. Many organic ingredients include them, like some fruits (berries, dragon fruit, lychee). They are safe for digestion, just not for inhalation. The term 'Organic' as we know it for food does not apply to e-juice. So, it's basically a scam.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
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  4. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    Wow, how come your replies ALWAYS sound so much better than mine! Again, I bow in your presence!
     
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  5. MrScaryZ

    MrScaryZ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Strawberry/Kiwi is a Flavor arts flavor that juice makers use and that is not organic I cannot speak on the rest
     
  6. flowerpots

    flowerpots Silver Contributor

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    I'm still learning, the real Einstein is RP. She knows all this stuff. I can just type it lol
     
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  7. MrScaryZ

    MrScaryZ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Who is RP I must haunt them :)
     
  8. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    Between you Mrs. Pots, RP, and @The Ocelot, I should just stay in a prostrated position! It's not worth even trying, anymore, to stand between humbling experiences you three fine ladies provide!
     
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  9. flowerpots

    flowerpots Silver Contributor

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    RP=Rocket Puppy
     
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  10. MrScaryZ

    MrScaryZ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I second that I look like a dipshit hahaha now FP always articulate ;)
     
  11. MrScaryZ

    MrScaryZ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Duhhh Scary needs to grow a brain duhhh on myself over and over until the River Styx freezes over
     
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  12. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    Was that for my benefit or the threads? I might be getting oldtimers, but who could forget RP=Rocket Puppy after sporting those socks of hers? Again, ya'll rock! Now back to the regularly scheduled program.....
     
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  13. flowerpots

    flowerpots Silver Contributor

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    @VapingCuban, most sellers of juice who say 'organic' mean they don't use artificial flavors, colors (dyes), or sweeteners. That's really all it means, usually.
     
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  14. flowerpots

    flowerpots Silver Contributor

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    No, it was for @Mrscaryz, he was asking.
     
  15. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    I thought it usually just meant another $5-$10 a bottle!
     
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  16. MrScaryZ

    MrScaryZ VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Chowder I had a brain fart :) sorry I screwed the thread
     
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  17. flowerpots

    flowerpots Silver Contributor

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    It usually does lol
     
  18. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    No more than my prostrations did my friend!;)
     
  19. The Ocelot

    The Ocelot Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Awww...i haz a flattered.

    Organic. What does that mean exactly? It is natural? Like naturally organic or unnaturally inorganic or naturally inorganic or unnaturally organic?

    I like cheese food.
     
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  20. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    @The Ocelot, you earned it! I've been following you for a couple years on ECF, and stood in awe of you there. @flowerpots, @RocketPuppy, Baditude (ECF), and you should one day all get together and write the "Vaping Bible" together.
     
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  21. VapingCuban

    VapingCuban Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    While they have not yet enforced regulations their are vendors that have labs who are doing it the right way. Meaning they have a lab that's dust free similar to a surgery room where very little if any contaminants are allowed in. They also label their juice with born dates and batch numbers etc. They come sealed and with child safety caps on. Just because the fda hasn't yet regulated doesn't mean vendors aren't trying to regulate themselves as to doing it the right way. Vendors such as vapor shark and I believe mountain oak vapors as well as others have their own lab where they make juice. ive even seen videos on youtube where vendors show you their labs for mixing and how they are in constant contact with the fda to create what the fda see as safe lab conditions. These are the kind of vendors that once the fda drops the hammer will survive. Vendors that are mixing your juice in the store will be a thing of the past.
     
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  22. Joshua McCord

    Joshua McCord Founding Vendor Founding Vendor VU Vendor New Member

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    Organic flavoring had nothing to do with pesticides, and only relates to health in that the flavorings are PG-free (which matters to some of us.) Most people that prefer the organic flavors, or should I say flavors that are extracted from the stuff they are supposed to taste like, because they are more complex and convincing. You can't make a genuine-tasting strawberry in a lab. At least not yet.

    As far as an FDA-compliant lab... Maybe AEMSA compliant. No such thing as an FDA compliant lab yet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
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  23. outwest

    outwest VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Like y'all, I can't help but question what the organic is about. IMHO, to be organic, the tobacco that the nicotine is from needs to be raised organically w/o the fertilizers they use, etc.
     
  24. Joshua McCord

    Joshua McCord Founding Vendor Founding Vendor VU Vendor New Member

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    As far as whether organic juice is some sort of scam, consider that the folks who have a PG sensitivity that requires their juice to be completely free of it pretty much have to use organic juice. The flavorings are pg-free.
    www.medicineflower.com
    www.naturesflavors.com
     
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  25. Joshua McCord

    Joshua McCord Founding Vendor Founding Vendor VU Vendor New Member

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    There is no commercial source for certified organic nicotine - but one can purchase organic tobacco flavor.
     
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  26. Chowder

    Chowder Silver Contributor

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    As I agree with your point, the claim of "FDA Compliance" is a farce at this point because there is no statute with which to comply. Now if they would have stated OSHA CFR's for general lab industries, I could see that. I can also see working with the FDA to obtain a standard. However, I just can't see the statement to be valid at this current point in time.
     
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  27. outwest

    outwest VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Which is why I see the "organic ejuice" thing as a bit scammy. Even if being used to promote the PG-free, IMHO a more sincere way would be to simply say "PG-Free".
     
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  28. Joshua McCord

    Joshua McCord Founding Vendor Founding Vendor VU Vendor New Member

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    That is why I am of the opinion that all vendors of "organic ejuice" should call their product "organically flavored" ejuice.

    edit: I try to stick to this with my own company's advertising
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
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  29. outwest

    outwest VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    That is an honest approach and something I can agree with
     
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  30. VapingCuban

    VapingCuban Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I believe that when they say organic it means free of additives like food coloring, etc. I know certain companies like, ahlusion do their own organic flavoring in house. Interesting read by the way is their about us page. Check them out and come back and post here your opinions on it. Would love to see what your thoughts are on their line of organic ejuice
     
  31. UncleRJ

    UncleRJ Will write reviews for Beer! Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee Reviewer

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    Anyone remember years ago when neutral PH was the huge thing/buzzword in the hair care and cosmetics industry?

    When if you did not use a balanced PH shampoo your hair was going to turn funny colors and then fall out in clumps?

    I asked about it at some point and it was pointed out to me that Dog Shit may be PH balanced but would that make it an ideal substance to apply to your hair and face?

    I am seeing some similarities here.
     
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  32. VapingCuban

    VapingCuban Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Lmfao
     
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  33. Sully

    Sully Silver Contributor

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    Most of my DIY is organic. Organic VG and organic flavorings. I'm pretty sure I'm not scamming myself...
     
  34. VapingCuban

    VapingCuban Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Sully where are you getting the flavoring?
     
  35. Sully

    Sully Silver Contributor

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  36. flowerpots

    flowerpots Silver Contributor

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    I am quoting this from the NF's website:

    "The processes for creating organic flavors are much the same as for making natural flavors. The difference being ingredients are organic rather than purely natural. Only certified organic ingredients are used when available. When not, natural ingredients may be used provided they fit within the definition of "natural" and comprise less than 5% of the total amount. This is referred to as 95% organic. 100% organic means only certified organic ingredients are utilized and nothing else. Nature's Flavors carries both 95% and 100% certified organic flavors. It is our goal to produce only 100% organic flavor concentrates and extracts as the ingredients become available.

    In many instances we produce our own organic ingredients to satisfy our strict quality control requirements. Steam distillation is a common and often used method for manufacturing our unique flavor concentrates and extracts. This process allows us to create our flavors without chemical residues because no chemical solvents were used in the process. Many organic flavoring ingredients are derived this way before being incorporated into water or oil based organic flavor concentrate. The entire process is safe and effective for producing the finest quality organic flavor oils, concentrates and extracts."

    and

    "What is an Organic Flavor Extract? Nature's Flavours' Organic Flavor Extracts are water soluble flavors made in a base of Organic Ethyl Alcohol. These all natural Flavor Extracts are Certified, Organic, Food Grade, Kosher, Vegan, Gluten Free, and contain NO Allergens. They are best used in clear beverages, dairy products, and applications where you don't want to disturb the clarity/translucency. Nature's Flavours' Extracts are of comparable strength to our Organic Flavor Concentrates, and Organic Flavor Oils. Nature's Flavours' Organic Flavor Extracts are flavors only and will need to be placed with a sweetener, fat, or something with high alkalinity like salt, for them to really burst in your mouth.

    Flavor Extracts are Water Soluble? Our Organic Flavor Extracts are pure Water Soluble Flavors, this means like our Organic Flavor Concentrates they will readily dissolve into water based applications. We do not recommend adding Flavor Extracts to an oil base, as separation may occur. For Oil Based applications we recommend our Oil Soluble Organic Flavor Oils, and our Organic Flavor Oils for Chocolate.

    What about Extracts in high heat applications? It is important to note that flavors and colors will become less potent when exposed to high heat applications. Nature's Flavours' Organic Flavor Concentrates are more heat stable than our Flavor Extracts. We also offer Natural Flavor Emulsions for High Heat Applications!"

    I am very interested in NF's products. But, my concern is diketones. They make little mention of them probably because their products are specific to food, not to ejuice. They can say that their products do not have dikeotnes, which really only means that they don't add any to it in the extraction process. It's the same as saying organic. A company can claim a product to be organic at only 95%. They have a diacytel free line of flavors. But, they can claim diacytel free with some still present.

    For NF's, organic means the original products from which the extractions were made, are certified food organic, and are without artificial sweeteners, dyes, extraction chemicals, are kosher, gluten free, dairy free. This is awesome - if they indeed contain absolutely no diketones.
     
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  37. Real Extract in Seattle

    Real Extract in Seattle VU Vendor VU Vendor Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    This is not an easy subject as "organic" is defined differently by regulatory agencies, growers, venders and the public.
    I had to decide whether to call my tea vaping elixirs organic as we use organic tea sources. The tea we use is tagged "organic" but what does that mean to me? It means no pesticides most likely but how would I know? I haven't sat in the field overseas and watched it. If it is indeed "organic" in every way we can wish for It is formulated with food grade PG and VG. They are "organic" in the sense that they are not "inorganic" chemicals.
    How do I really know? I don't. I have to trust somebody else down the line.
    The label says my liquids are USP food grade. I can't prove anything except that my source of liquid says so and stamped the bottle and sent me an analysis report. I don't know if that report was for my shipment or not.
    I defaulted to just calling our real extracted tea e-liquids "natural" because the flavor was extracted from natural tea grown without pesticides as best as we know.
    'Tis a sticky wicket...
     
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  38. Sully

    Sully Silver Contributor

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    PG cannot be organic. BUT I agree, it is what they tell us it is, and that is all we have to go on...If I buy 100% organic ingredients and mix them together, I still have a 100% organic product. Does it mean it's healthier or truly organic? I cant say. You can polk holes in anything. I use organic products when I think they perform better than a conventional version of that product or if there is a significant health / lifestyle benefit that only presents in the organic variation. That's me though...
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
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  39. serenity219

    serenity219 Member For 2 Years

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    Organic has become such a catch phrase and marketing device. Yes the flavourings might very well be organic and yes juice that is labelled organic is something that those of us who are PG sensitive could use. There is a shop that recently opened up in my city which makes the organic claim. I have thought about checking them out as everything is 100% VG but I have also heard that they are marketing vitamin e-juices and what not. Seems kind of sketchy to me. There is another source of 100% VG juice near my work place so I will probably just continue going there. Organic and vitamin infused is dubious to me.
     
  40. mariettagator

    mariettagator New Member

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    you have to understand there is a BIG difference between Organic and "Certified Organic" e-juice. there are many flavorings that are synthetic and thus cannot be labeled as Organic or Certified Organic. If the e-juice is made from "Natural" flavors and the glycerin is organic (meaning that it isn't made from petroleum by products) then you can have an organic e-juice. if you want a certified organic e-juice the process is much more detailed including the fact that each facility and/or processor of the materials going into the e-juice must be NOP (national organic program) certified which is no easy task to accomplish. if you can find a certifed organic e-juice you can rest assured that you are vaping the best/healthiest e-juice out there, but beware there may be posers that will label their product as certified organic yet it may not be... if you want to be sure, ask for the organic labeler code for the product (often it is printed on the label somewhere), if they cant give you that then it probably isn't a certified product and they should be reported to the FDA or NOP. If it has a code you can verify it online with the NOP. Happy Vaping!!
     
  41. VapedCrusader

    VapedCrusader Custard Junkie Gold Contributor

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    Gluten Free E-Juice - coming to a vendor near you :)
     
  42. AmandaD

    AmandaD Platinum Contributor Member For 3 Years

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  43. Sully

    Sully Silver Contributor

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    This is not necessarily true. Organic and/or Natural flavorings are much more susceptible to naturally occurring diketones, which are the nasties that cause permanent lung damage when inhaled.

    When looking for an e-liquid flavoring, or e-liquid in general I would much rather see that it is free of diacetyl, acetoin, acetyl propionyl, or other related diketones, refined sugars, protein, genetically modified ingredients, animal ingredients of any kind, preservatives, sweeteners, or colors.

    Unfortunately, there are NO organic or natural flavoring companies out there that manufacture their products to even come close to these requirements. Actually, a lot of the natural and organic flavorings are made from a beavers anal gland believe it or not.

    Organic e-juice is 'healthier' is a big misnomer...
     
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  44. Miamora

    Miamora New Member

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    Great info here thanks guys..
     
  45. Ryedan

    Ryedan Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I read that article a while back and couldn't find it again so thanks for the link Amanda :). Bookmarked now.

    I try to stay away from organic extracts for my juice. Synthetic flavorants can be bad for us too, but IMO there is less of a chance of that happening than with organics. I also feel synthetics are easier to keep chemically cleaner.

    Then again, I'm no expert at this stuff and this is just my opinion from some light reading on the subject. YMMV as always ;)
     
  46. kingworm

    kingworm Bronze Contributor

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    this is one of my pet peeves... people need to google organic . no pesticides does not mean organic organic means it is a organism or a compound created by a organism. using that peanut oil is organic.
    also by defining organic as without pesticides you exclude tobacco from ever being organic. nicotine is a pesticide and is made by the plant for that purpose.
    and lastly pesticides does not mean its bad. it means healthier plants . the nicotine that is in our e juice is not straight from the plant it is refined very heavily so the pesticides used will be filtered out.
    something i found interesting is propylene glycol is a organic compound.
     
  47. Ryedan

    Ryedan Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I think that is because another definition of 'organic' is any compound that contains carbon atoms, which PG does. These compounds are generally created by living organisms, but not always. Carbon steel for example.

    Would be great if someone who knows more about this stuff would explain it properly. Then again, with multiple definitions of a word it can be hard to nail everything down completely.
     
  48. kingworm

    kingworm Bronze Contributor

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    if people would stop making up definitions for words that already have definitions this wouldnt be a problem
     
  49. kingworm

    kingworm Bronze Contributor

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    by the way in chemistry there is a difference between organic and a organic compound and you pretty much nailed it a organic compound is any compound containing a large amount of carbon.
     
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