Regarding safe amprage of regulated devices.

[Zaet]

Hi, im hoping im posting this in the correct spot.

Im Vaping on a Voopoo Drag with a Cleito exo tank (0.15Ohm coils), and i got a pair of new batteries.
The people in the store asked if it was fine with sub ohm batteries (3.7v 2500mAh 20A continious 30A pulse.)
And i just went ahead and said yes, but it got me thinking regarding the safe amprages on the batteries running in serie, so i have some quick questions and ihope you can alleviate my worries.

1. If i get it correctly when you use a regulated mod the ohm on the coils dont matter as the chip does the work regulating the correct values according to the wattage im using?
2. If say, i vape around 70-100 watts is it safe for the 20A rated coils, im not really trusting the online calculators that ive come across as it seems like there is many values.
3. What would be the safe wattage for a 20A battery on a regulated mod?

I understand if its a vauge topic, but im not gonna sleep well tonight if i cant figure this out.
Thanks!

 

[jwill]

Your battery life might not be amazing but it will not be an issue in the grand cosmic scheme of things. The drag has protections that will keep you from blowing yourself up.

 

[Zaet]

Your battery life might not be amazing but it will not be an issue in the grand cosmic scheme of things. The drag has protections that will keep you from blowing yourself up.

Thanks for the quick reply, okay i will sleep tight knowing my face is out of harms reach, once again thanks!

 

[jwill]

Thanks for the quick reply, okay i will sleep tight knowing my face is out of harms reach, once again thanks!

No worries. Welcome to VU. Happy Friday and happy vaping.

 

[Carambrda]

1. Correct.
2. No. Lithium ion rechargeable batteries are not safe. It is dangerous to use these batteries. It is dangerous to vape on them. We vape on them nevertheless, but we do it because we learn and understand the risks so that we can accept those risks. That said, with two of the same batteries that are rated to 20A continuous discharge, in a regulated mod you will be within the recommended safety limits, which means it will be reasonably safe, but not "safe".
3. There are no hard and fast numbers that are safe and unsafe to vape. The recommended safety limit for a regulated mod using two of the same batteries that are rated to 20A continuous discharge is 120 watts.

 

[Vape Fan]

The people in the store asked if it was fine with sub ohm batteries (3.7v 2500mAh 20A continious 30A pulse.)

"The people in the store...." You mean those that work there? And they called them sub ohm batteries? So they would sound official....lol
Many battery wrapper specs can't be trusted as true fact.
What brand, and model if it has it, are your 3.7v 2500mAh 20A continious 30A pulse? Samsung 25R?

Always state the battery by brand/model.

Also, in my sig -you can save the link, or follow that thread, to see what Battery Mooch has to say and his test results - as they pertain to vaping.

 

[Carambrda]

"The people in the store...." You mean those that work there?

Likely those who get paid to make it look like they're always working mighty hard.

 

[Zaet]

1. Correct.
2. No. Lithium ion rechargeable batteries are not safe. It is dangerous to use these batteries. It is dangerous to vape on them. We vape on them nevertheless, but we do it because we learn and understand the risks so that we can accept those risks. That said, with two of the same batteries that are rated to 20A continuous discharge, in a regulated mod you will be within the recommended safety limits, which means it will be reasonably safe, but not "safe".
3. There are no hard and fast numbers that are safe and unsafe to vape. The recommended safety limit for a regulated mod using two of the same batteries that are rated to 20A continuous discharge is 120 watts.

First of all sorry for the late reply, thanks for clearing it up for me!
So im assuming that even if the batteries are running in serial they share the load?

"The people in the store...." You mean those that work there? And they called them sub ohm batteries? So they would sound official....lol
Many battery wrapper specs can't be trusted as true fact.
What brand, and model if it has it, are your 3.7v 2500mAh 20A continious 30A pulse? Samsung 25R?

Always state the battery by brand/model.

Also, in my sig -you can save the link, or follow that thread, to see what Battery Mooch has to say and his test results - as they pertain to vaping.

The batteries are from subohmbatteries.com , and yes i was confused ive never heard anyone refer the batteries as subohm batteries.
I checked now and both the batteries codes first said that they dont exist in the database but when searching again it gives me the green?(odd)


Also ive been vaping on the batteries for a day now and they are staying just above my body temp in heat, mind its quite hot in my room when im gaming but im guessing its quite normal due to puffing away for a solid 2 hours. ^^

I also have a pair of VCT5 2600 mAh 3.7v that i currently popped in while writing as they dont seem to run as "warm" as the new ones.

Thanks for the replies.

Edit: Here is a picture, i live in the EU(Sweden)

 

[Vape Fan]

ok, so Subohm is the brand. Made by some other company and rewrapped with Subohm lable at which point they can alter some of the wrapper's stats. Some rewrapped are good batteries. Some of Vapcell's batteries are rewrapped higher end batteries. A quick search, including Mooch, didn't reveal anything as to what battery it really is or how it tests out. If you can, stick with the maufacturer's wrapped like the VCT5A you have and others for regulated mod is VCT6, Samsung 30Q, even LG HG2. Mooch is really the best place to check for stats of what the battery can really do for vaping, no matter who makes it.

 

[Zaet]

ok, so Subohm is the brand. Made by some other company and rewrapped with Subohm lable at which point they can alter some of the wrapper's stats. Some rewrapped are good batteries. Some of Vapcell's batteries are rewrapped higher end batteries. A quick search, including Mooch, didn't reveal anything as to what battery it really is or how it tests out. If you can, stick with the maufacturer's wrapped like the VCT5A you have and others for regulated mod is VCT6, Samsung 30Q, even LG HG2. Mooch is really the best place to check for stats of what the battery can really do for vaping, no matter who makes it.

Once again thanks for the quick reply and very informative help, ill make sure to check with the people in the shop regarding what battery it is next time i drop by, until then ill stick with the VCT5.

 

[Mattp169]

Your battery life might not be amazing but it will not be an issue in the grand cosmic scheme of things. The drag has protections that will keep you from blowing yourself up.

Please stop telling people this. Those protections only work if you use the recommended batteries for the mod. SInce the OP has rewraps we have no idea what their real CDR is. They could be 5 amp batteries and regardless of the protections, the chip can not tell what the battery temp is or what its CDR is so run 5 amp batteries at 120 watts and the batteries will likely vent.

 

[Carambrda]

Series or parallel does not matter in a regulated mod when determining the battery safety. As the video below explains, the wattage you vape, the number of batteries in the regulated mod, the voltage cut-off of the mod, and the efficiency of the mod are the only factors needed to be able to calculate the amp draw on each battery.

Further, the batteries that you showed in the pic you posted are rewraps of the Samsung 25R, and are accurately rated.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...18650-accurately-rated-probably-a-25r.818697/

 

[Vape Fan]

Further, the batteries that you showed in the pic you posted are rewraps of the Samsung 25R, and are accurately rated.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...18650-accurately-rated-probably-a-25r.818697/

+1

What brand, and model if it has it, are your 3.7v 2500mAh 20A continious 30A pulse? Samsung 25R?
Also, in my sig -you can save the link, or follow that thread, to see what Battery Mooch has to say and his test results - as they pertain to vaping.

Nice going. You confirmed what I thought they were. I just didn't have time to dig deep enough to find it, and pointed the TS in that direction.

 

[Carambrda]

I think the best place to buy your batteries if you live in the EU is www.nkon.nl excepting maybe if you live in the UK.

Here is a rewrap of the Sony VTC5D, which beats the VTC5A and mops the floor with the Samsung 25R.
https://www.nkon.nl/vapcell-inr18650-2800mah-25a.html

 

[Mattp169]

Further, the batteries that you showed in the pic you posted are rewraps of the Samsung 25R, and are accurately rated.

at least they were when they were tested by mooch. doesn't mean they didnt change them afterwards

 

[Carambrda]

at least they were when they were tested by mooch. doesn't mean they didnt change them afterwards

But... they all look like honest Swedes to me.

 

[Mattp169]

But... they all look like honest Swedes to me.

I do not know how mooch does it. He is literally putting his name on the line when he tests rewraps. I would not put it past a company to rewrap a batch of vtc5ds wait for mooch to test and report back that they are vtc5d rewraps then the next batches will be much lower grade batteries that do not compare to a vtc5d. I just plain out do not trust rewraps, and with the availability of name brand batteries I see no reason to buy rewraps

 

[Carambrda]

I do not know how mooch does it. He is literally putting his name on the line when he tests rewraps. I would not put it past a company to rewrap a batch of vtc5ds wait for mooch to test and report back that they are vtc5d rewraps then the next batches will be much lower grade batteries that do not compare to a vtc5d. I just plain out do not trust rewraps, and with the availability of name brand batteries I see no reason to buy rewraps

The non-rewrap version of the VTC5D is not currently available to me so, at least for now, these Vapcell rewraps are the only way for me to get the best possible performance, which is why I see a reason to buy rewraps. Mooch said Vapcell have never lied to him... I believe they are perfectly aware that he will just slap them on the wrist if they do, as they remember what happened to Efest, who have bettered themselves after they were hurting pretty badly as a result from Mooch's actions, and in fact they [Vapcell] have been donating batteries to him for testing as well as have paid him via his Patreon account to be able to ask him questions and request testing which will be given a higher priority. Remember Mooch said there is nothing inherently bad about rewraps. You can still investigate on what you are buying if you buy from a trusted vendor because you can contact the vendor and simply ask them. Mooch's list of trusted vendors is in the descriptions of his videos on his personal YouTube channel.

That said, you can verify that your newly bought batteries will not get overly warm... you can start at low wattage and gradually increase the wattage to find out how fast the battery temperature rises, and compare that to a known reference (i.e. a non-rewrap battery known to be good) that has the same amp rating. Even if you only buy non-rewraps from trusted vendors, there can be no guarantee about lower grades versus higher grades, and, in addition to that, there can be no guarantee that you won't run into fake batteries.

 

[Mattp169]

The non-rewrap version of the VTC5D is not currently available to me so, at least for now, these Vapcell rewraps are the only way for me to get the best possible performance, which is why I see a reason to buy rewraps. Mooch said Vapcell have never lied to him... I believe they are perfectly aware that he will just slap them on the wrist if they do, as they remember what happened to Efest, who have bettered themselves after they were hurting pretty badly as a result from Mooch's actions, and in fact they [Vapcell] have been donating batteries to him for testing as well as have paid him via his Patreon account to be able to ask him questions and request testing which will be given a higher priority. Remember Mooch said there is nothing inherently bad about rewraps. You can still investigate on what you are buying if you buy from a trusted vendor because you can contact the vendor and simply ask them. Mooch's list of trusted vendors is in the descriptions of his videos on his personal YouTube channel.

That said, you can verify that your newly bought batteries will not get overly warm... you can start at low wattage and gradually increase the wattage to find out how fast the battery temperature rises, and compare that to a known reference (i.e. a non-rewrap battery known to be good) that has the same amp rating. Even if you only buy non-rewraps from trusted vendors, there can be no guarantee about lower grades versus higher grades, and, in addition to that, there can be no guarantee that you won't run into fake batteries.

Most vapors are not us. They know nothing about this stuff. They just buy whatever they are sold in a store or online.

Great example 25rs are super recommend still today in vape shops and sold online on vape websites. They are not bad batteries but for about the same price you can get VTC6s or VTC5as.
Why are 25rs so recommended??? Because most of the vape world does not follow mooch and find out all this stuff.

So if vapecell, who is basically buying his endorsement at this point, pulls the old switcheroo or uses mooch's seal of approval for some of their batteries to help boost sales of their other batteries, very few people are going to know.

Did every vape shop stop selling efest because of what mooch said? No... did they get hurt in sales? sure.

but lets get real. Mooch's youtube channel has under 20k subs and the most current estimate, I have seen is there are about 9 million people in the USA alone who vape regularly. That's not even 1% of the vaping world watching his stuff.

You or I using a rewrap is one thing. newbs should not imho. And we should be honest, while we hope these companies don't pull the old switcheroo after mooch tests it, they may very well do that.

In regards to fakes... when you buy from a reputable vendor you seriously reduce your risk of that, and they usually notify customers when they discover it. I am less concerned with buying fakes from liionwholesale or imr or illum then I am about if the rewrap I buy because mooch says it is X actually being X and not something different

 

[Carambrda]

Most vapors are not us. They know nothing about this stuff. They just buy whatever they are sold in a store or online.

That's one part of the reason why the FDA wants to ban any and all external battery mods.

Great example 25rs are super recommend still today in vape shops and sold online on vape websites. They are not bad batteries but for about the same price you can get VTC6s or VTC5as.
Why are 25rs so recommended??? Because most of the vape world does not follow mooch and find out all this stuff.

Why does most of the vape world not follow Mooch and find out all this stuff??? Because most of the vape world just sits there waiting for the FDA to ban most of the vape world, after which all this stuff won't matter much anymore anyway.

So if vapecell, who is basically buying his endorsement at this point, pulls the old switcheroo or uses mooch's seal of approval for some of their batteries to help boost sales of their other batteries, very few people are going to know.

The good news is, those who can be smart enough to find out liionwholesale.com and imrbatteries.com and illumn.com are on Mooch's list of trusted battery vendors can likely be smart enough to be among people who are going to know about the old switcheroo in the event that it does happen. The rest can just continue to sit there waiting for the FDA instead, or else they can start listening to Mooch.

Did every vape shop stop selling efest because of what mooch said? No... did they get hurt in sales? sure.

but lets get real. Mooch's youtube channel has under 20k subs and the most current estimate, I have seen is there are about 9 million people in the USA alone who vape regularly. That's not even 1% of the vaping world watching his stuff.

Let's get even more real. Efest got hurt in sales so badly, it is still a prime example of why Vapcell doesn't want to get hurt in sales the same way Efest got hurt... so it serves as a lesson despite the fact Mooch's YouTube channel didn't even have any content yet at the time when Efest got hurt. Mooch's influence goes a very, very long way beyond YouTube so that's the other good news. Without him, there wouldn't actually even be a list of trusted battery vendors anyway in the first place. So instead of getting real, you are merely grasping at straws.

You or I using a rewrap is one thing. newbs should not imho.

Sorry, but newbs should get informed or wait for the FDA to dumb America down. It's not even my opinion... it's just the way of life.

And we should be honest, while we hope these companies don't pull the old switcheroo after mooch tests it, they may very well do that.

Do you know why it is dangerous to walk in the woods at night? It's because if a billiards table falls out of a tree, you're dead!

In regards to fakes... when you buy from a reputable vendor you seriously reduce your risk of that, and they usually notify customers when they discover it. I am less concerned with buying fakes from liionwholesale or imr or illum then I am about if the rewrap I buy because mooch says it is X actually being X and not something different

Like I previously explained, Vapcell are extremely well aware that shooting themselves in the foot the same way Efest has done in the past is an extremely bad idea, and they also know why. Vapcell have no reason to lie to Mooch, and that also explains why they haven't, but there's always at least someone who wants to perpetually badmouth certain brands and or wants to distort what Mooch has said about rewraps or about batteries in general. So basically, if I were forced to choose between trusting Vapcell batteries and trusting the badmouthers/naysayers in forum thread like this one, then I'll happily choose the former.

 

[gbalkam]

First of all sorry for the late reply, thanks for clearing it up for me!
So im assuming that even if the batteries are running in serial they share the load?



The batteries are from subohmbatteries.com , and yes i was confused ive never heard anyone refer the batteries as subohm batteries.
I checked now and both the batteries codes first said that they dont exist in the database but when searching again it gives me the green?(odd)


Also ive been vaping on the batteries for a day now and they are staying just above my body temp in heat, mind its quite hot in my room when im gaming but im guessing its quite normal due to puffing away for a solid 2 hours. ^^

I also have a pair of VCT5 2600 mAh 3.7v that i currently popped in while writing as they dont seem to run as "warm" as the new ones.

Thanks for the replies.

Edit: Here is a picture, i live in the EU(Sweden)

My biggest 2 concerns are these.. First and foremost... NEVER buy a battery with a "Pulse" rating. That is just a meaningless value designed to trick you into buying a crappy factory 2nd re-wrapped battery. Second.. never buy crappy, factory 2nd re-wrapped batteries. First run batteries are sold under the Sony, Samsung and LG brand names. Factory 2nd have already failed some factor in the quality assurance process to get the "seconds" rating. It may not be a huge factor with regulated devices, but as a matter of principal, it is better to just stick with the Branded top quality batteries.. Mods are to expensive to replace to save a few cents on a battery.

Further note on Pulse rating. A battery will "Pulse" at whatever you tell it to via the coil resistance. (See ohms law). Lets figure your batteries are re-wrapped factory 2nds of a Samsung 25r. I pulse my 25rs at 45-50 amps. How long is my pulse? How long do I let my battery rest between firings? How much does my battery heat up? You have no way to know that. So same battery, 2 different pulse rates... and you know nothing about either of them.. hence we never use a listed pulse rating. *note.. pulsing at 45-50 amps is not considered "safe" you have to first consider the amount of research done, battery specs and stress tests done and a bunch of other factors a person has to be responsible for personally to make these levels as safe as possible. SAFE (as possible) is to stay at or below your batteries CDR (25 amps in your case) but that only applies to mechanical mods. With regulated mods, the IC does the work.

Here is a great example...
Efest IMR 18650 2900mAh 35A Battery
There is no such thing as a 35A battery. This is just a label efest printed because their test allowed a 35A discharge and the battery did not vent. A 20A Samsung will do exactly the same thing.

 

[Carambrda]

For the record here, despite that pulse ratings are indeed useless, there exists no such thing as "a factory 2nd battery", let alone "a factory 2nd rewrapped battery". Rewraps are NOT batteries that "have already failed some factor in the quality assurance process"... he just made that up. What does exist are different battery grades, but the only difference between different grades is that the performance differs by a few percent, and there is NO way of telling what grade you are going to get. (Even, if you buy Sony, LG, Samsung, or Panasonic/Sanyo.) That is a fact. So you get a mixed bag of different grades no matter what batteries you buy or where you buy from.

In no way does using a lower grade battery increase the risk of harming a regulated device beyond what we have control over. That's unicorn shit and pixi dust from those who want to keep trolling the place─usually until hell freezes.

 

[gbalkam]

My biggest 2 concerns are these.. First and foremost... NEVER buy a battery with a "Pulse" rating. That is just a meaningless value designed to trick you into buying a crappy factory 2nd re-wrapped battery. Second.. never buy crappy, factory 2nd re-wrapped batteries. First run batteries are sold under the Sony, Samsung and LG brand names. Factory 2nd have already failed some factor in the quality assurance process to get the "seconds" rating. It may not be a huge factor with regulated devices, but as a matter of principal, it is better to just stick with the Branded top quality batteries.. Mods are to expensive to replace to save a few cents on a battery.

Further note on Pulse rating. A battery will "Pulse" at whatever you tell it to via the coil resistance. (See ohms law). Lets figure your batteries are re-wrapped factory 2nds of a Samsung 25r. I pulse my 25rs at 45-50 amps. How long is my pulse? How long do I let my battery rest between firings? How much does my battery heat up? You have no way to know that. So same battery, 2 different pulse rates... and you know nothing about either of them.. hence we never use a listed pulse rating. *note.. pulsing at 45-50 amps is not considered "safe" you have to first consider the amount of research done, battery specs and stress tests done and a bunch of other factors a person has to be responsible for personally to make these levels as safe as possible. SAFE (as possible) is to stay at or below your batteries CDR (25 amps in your case) but that only applies to mechanical mods. With regulated mods, the IC does the work.

For the record here, despite that pulse ratings are indeed useless, there exists no such thing as "a factory 2nd battery", let alone "a factory 2nd rewrapped battery". Rewraps are NOT batteries that "have already failed some factor in the quality assurance process"... he just made that up. What does exist are different battery grades, but the only difference between different grades is that the performance differs by a few percent, and there is NO way of telling what grade you are going to get. (Even, if you buy Sony, LG, Samsung, or Panasonic/Sanyo.) That is a fact. So you get a mixed bag of different grades no matter what batteries you buy or where you buy from.

In no way does using a lower grade battery increase the risk of harming a regulated device beyond what we have control over. That's unicorn shit and pixi dust from those who want to keep trolling the place─usually until hell freezes.

And I can piss in a beer bottle.. but that doesn't make it beer. You have no way of knowing what is under those wrappers. It is better just to go with the known factors, such as Sony, Samsung LG, we KNOW what is under their wraps. There are very few issues with regulated mods, about 1 in 10 million, but the point is, I want to know what I am putting in my mod. Not whatever cell e-fest got cheapest from one week to the next. They have already been exposed for putting fake labels on batteries. One week it was on a 25A 2600mah cell, next week, a 15A 3000mah cell. Not much difference where regulated is concerned, but one hell of a difference in batteries. So, be on the safe side, and avoid rewraps.

 

[Zaet]

I want to thank all of you for the kindess and learning a newbie some safety, it will be hard to reply to all of you but thanks alot for helping!

 

[Carambrda]

And I can piss in a beer bottle.. but that doesn't make it beer. You have no way of knowing what is under those wrappers. It is better just to go with the known factors, such as Sony, Samsung LG, we KNOW what is under their wraps. There are very few issues with regulated mods, about 1 in 10 million, but the point is, I want to know what I am putting in my mod. Not whatever cell e-fest got cheapest from one week to the next. They have already been exposed for putting fake labels on batteries. One week it was on a 25A 2600mah cell, next week, a 15A 3000mah cell. Not much difference where regulated is concerned, but one hell of a difference in batteries. So, be on the safe side, and avoid rewraps.

Comparing Vapcell to what Efest were doing at the time when Efest got caught doesn't make any real sense. I was talking about Vapcell, not Efest, but you keep going on about Efest, which illustrates my point about "usually until hell freezes". If you had watched the video I linked, you would have noticed Mooch himself said (at 17:34) rewraps such as the iJoy 20700 batteries are among batteries that he recommends, which further illustrates my point about "usually until hell freezes". Confusing the OP even further with useless remarks about Ohm's Law in your retort about pulse ratings is also not helping you gain your lost credibility back, as the OP is not using a mechanical mod so Ohm's Law is irrelevant to the discussion.

Finally, the OP uses batteries that are rated to 20A, not 25A. The battery I recommended getting from NKON is a 25A rewrap by Vapcell which is still safer than any 20A battery from Sony, LG, Samsung, Panasonic/Sanyo. That plus the fact it will likely outperform them all, noticeably, if using two of these batteries in a regulated mod at 100 watts. This is partly because the chip inside most dual 18650 regulated mods in the affordable/lower price range offers degraded performance if using 20A batteries that have a bigger voltage sag that's due to their higher internal resistance when compared to the VTC5A or, in this case, a rewrap of the VTC5D.

 

[Mattp169]

I want to thank all of you for the kindess and learning a newbie some safety, it will be hard to reply to all of you but thanks alot for helping!

you are quite welcome, and the battery debate gets hot and heavy some days

hers the long and short of it.
Sony panasonic samsung and lg batteries are made by the respective companies. The ratings we have for them are KNOWN and they don't change.
No battery is safe they were not really designed for this application, they were designed to be used in a sealed battery pack like a laptop battery or a cordless drill, but they do work fine with a little bit of knowledge for vaping
all other brands of batteries are most likely not made by the company they just buy a samsung sony panasonic or lg battery and place their own label on it
from experience these labels are often exagerated and using them at their upper limits can be much less safe even in a regulated mod and they can and some do change what battery they are using and use the same wrap over time.

There are some batteries not made by the companies mentioned above, i think all made in china. doesnt make them good or bad

mooch (just search google cuz I don't have all the links handy) is a guy who knows his stuff and does extensive testing on batteries, he is considered the authority, you can take what he says as pretty much gospel. watch all his youtube videos there's like a dozen not including the live feeds he has done and you will know alot more about batteries and their safety.

in a regulated mod all you need to know is this imho
each 20 amp battery you have allows for about 60 watts of power safely
so in a 2 battery mod that is 120 watts
in a 3 battery mod that's 180

why do mods go higher in watts then what I just said is safe?
Because you can get 25 amp batteries and 30 amp batteries but the flip side to that is they don't hold their charge as long

so figure out if you are wanting to NORMALLY vape within the 60 watts per cell or less rangel. If yes then find some good 20 amp batteries sony vtc6, lg hg2, samsung 25r and 30q) or even a 25amp battery (sony VTC5A) make sure you get extra wraps and insulators to rewrap them when the wraps get damaged and use a good external charger. DONE be happy stop worrying

If you want to NORMALLY vape above the 60 watt per cell, then get 25-30amp batters (sony VTC5a, LG HB6) and get the extra wraps and external charger. If you ever feel the batteries getting hot STOP using them until they cool down. And done be happy stop worrying

Can you do 200 watts once in a while for shits and giggles in a 2 battery mod with 20 amp batteries? YES and it can be quite safe depending on how charged up the batteries are. Generally the problem becomes when the batteries are nearly depleted ad need recharged. A drained battery usually is around 3 volts while a fully charged battery is 4.2 V. Due to science the less watts in a battery the more amps is required to reach the wattage setting

So at 70 watts a fully charged battery only needs about 18 amps while a discharged battery at 3V needs about 26 amps

 

[Carambrda]

you are quite welcome, and the battery debate gets hot and heavy some days

hers the long and short of it.
Sony panasonic samsung and lg batteries are made by the respective companies. The ratings we have for them are KNOWN and they don't change.
No battery is safe they were not really designed for this application, they were designed to be used in a sealed battery pack like a laptop battery or a cordless drill, but they do work fine with a little bit of knowledge for vaping
all other brands of batteries are most likely not made by the company they just buy a samsung sony panasonic or lg battery and place their own label on it
from experience these labels are often exagerated and using them at their upper limits can be much less safe even in a regulated mod and they can and some do change what battery they are using and use the same wrap over time.

There are some batteries not made by the companies mentioned above, i think all made in china. doesnt make them good or bad

mooch (just search google cuz I don't have all the links handy) is a guy who knows his stuff and does extensive testing on batteries, he is considered the authority, you can take what he says as pretty much gospel. watch all his youtube videos there's like a dozen not including the live feeds he has done and you will know alot more about batteries and their safety.

in a regulated mod all you need to know is this imho
each 20 amp battery you have allows for about 60 watts of power safely
so in a 2 battery mod that is 120 watts
in a 3 battery mod that's 180

why do mods go higher in watts then what I just said is safe?
Because you can get 25 amp batteries and 30 amp batteries but the flip side to that is they don't hold their charge as long

so figure out if you are wanting to NORMALLY vape within the 60 watts per cell or less rangel. If yes then find some good 20 amp batteries sony vtc6, lg hg2, samsung 25r and 30q) or even a 25amp battery (sony VTC5A) make sure you get extra wraps and insulators to rewrap them when the wraps get damaged and use a good external charger. DONE be happy stop worrying

If you want to NORMALLY vape above the 60 watt per cell, then get 25-30amp batters (sony VTC5a, LG HB6) and get the extra wraps and external charger. If you ever feel the batteries getting hot STOP using them until they cool down. And done be happy stop worrying

Can you do 200 watts once in a while for shits and giggles in a 2 battery mod with 20 amp batteries? YES and it can be quite safe depending on how charged up the batteries are. Generally the problem becomes when the batteries are nearly depleted ad need recharged. A drained battery usually is around 3 volts while a fully charged battery is 4.2 V. Due to science the less watts in a battery the more amps is required to reach the wattage setting

So at 70 watts a fully charged battery only needs about 18 amps while a discharged battery at 3V needs about 26 amps

While I agree with most of what you wrote in your post, there are still some points to consider.

When talking about 20 amp batteries, in discussions like these the performance of the chip/board inside a regulated mod and how that reflects on the quality of the actual vape experience itself when comparing different batteries in the real world is typically always getting ignored. People who speak from first hand experience with fairly popular dual 18650 regulated mods such as the Asmodus Minikin or the Smoant Battlestar, for example, will tell you at only 100 watts the battery life with two LG HG2 or Samsung 30Q or Sony VTC6 batteries simply just sucks when compared to using two Sony VTC5A batteries. You'll hear complaints that the vape starts feeling weaker, and possibly also the flavor production starts to decline, far too long before the mod in question reaches its voltage cut-off point of usually 3.2 volts. The mod just throttles down performance a lot sooner than that. So when it comes to putting the theory to the test, real world experiences from real people who vape on real regulated mods are not in line with the old "up to 120 watts with two 20 amp batteries in a regulated mod" adage. For a dual 18650 regulated mod, the point at which the aforementioned 20 amp batteries gradually become the wisest choice as opposed to the VTC5A is often two dozens of watts lower than those 120 watts due to how the chip reacts to the voltage sag of the batteries. (Even, if using wattage mode, i.e. I am not even talking about the chip's performance in temp control mode.) Some people on here are purely obsessed with recommending 20 amp batteries even when it's not warranted. Even if the performance turns out to be the same for the mod you're using at the wattage you vape, the VTC5A will run cooler so it will take longer before the capacity starts to diminish as a result from normal wear and tear. Even if you're staying within the recommended safety limits, doesn't also mean the VTC5A won't be safer. It will most definitely be safer.

Another thing is vaping at 200 watts on a dual battery mod with 20 amp batteries is definitely not recommended with regards to safety even if the batteries are fully charged. The whole idea of never exceeding the CDR of the batteries in a regulated mod is for it to still remain reasonably safe even in the event that the mod starts auto firing, i.e. the event that the batteries start getting drained continuously for a long period. Granted, if you can make absolutely sure that this won't ever happen, you won't be taxing the batteries too hard. But then we are assuming you understand how to stop the mod from auto firing, in the possible event that it does that, before it will be too late─and assuming you understand what can happen if you forget to turn the wattage down again before you leave the mod unattended in such a way that the fire button might get pressed for a long time by accident. So still something to be aware of when you're talking to someone who isn't familiar with all this stuff just yet.

Finally, if you are worried about the fact that the LG HB6 has such a frustratingly low capacity and you need your batteries to be 30 amps, then you should consider getting a mod that can support batteries the size of which is bigger than an 18650. This brings me back to my point about rewraps, as the best performing 30 amp 18650 battery available to us─and that seriously outperforms the HB6─happens to be another rewrap by Vapcell, and, if going for the bigger sized batteries instead, then, depending on where you live, you might have a hard time looking past some of the rewraps. Because, where I live (Europe, outside the UK) the only 30 amp 20700 and either 30 or 35 amp 21700 batteries available to me right now happen to be also rewraps, the best performing ones being rewraps by, yeah you guessed it: Vapcell.

 

[Mattp169]

While I agree with most of what you wrote in your post, there are still some points to consider.

When talking about 20 amp batteries, in discussions like these the performance of the chip/board inside a regulated mod and how that reflects on the quality of the actual vape experience itself when comparing different batteries in the real world is typically always getting ignored. People who speak from first hand experience with fairly popular dual 18650 regulated mods such as the Asmodus Minikin or the Smoant Battlestar, for example, will tell you at only 100 watts the battery life with two LG HG2 or Samsung 30Q or Sony VTC6 batteries simply just sucks when compared to using two Sony VTC5A batteries. You'll hear complaints that the vape starts feeling weaker, and possibly also the flavor production starts to decline, far too long before the mod in question reaches its voltage cut-off point of usually 3.2 volts. The mod just throttles down performance a lot sooner than that. So when it comes to putting the theory to the test, real world experiences from real people who vape on real regulated mods are not in line with the old "up to 120 watts with two 20 amp batteries in a regulated mod" adage. For a dual 18650 regulated mod, the point at which the aforementioned 20 amp batteries gradually become the wisest choice as opposed to the VTC5A is often two dozens of watts lower than those 120 watts due to how the chip reacts to the voltage sag of the batteries. (Even, if using wattage mode, i.e. I am not even talking about the chip's performance in temp control mode.) Some people on here are purely obsessed with recommending 20 amp batteries even when it's not warranted. Even if the performance turns out to be the same for the mod you're using at the wattage you vape, the VTC5A will run cooler so it will take longer before the capacity starts to diminish as a result from normal wear and tear. Even if you're staying within the recommended safety limits, doesn't also mean the VTC5A won't be safer. It will most definitely be safer.

Another thing is vaping at 200 watts on a dual battery mod with 20 amp batteries is definitely not recommended with regards to safety even if the batteries are fully charged. The whole idea of never exceeding the CDR of the batteries in a regulated mod is for it to still remain reasonably safe even in the event that the mod starts auto firing, i.e. the event that the batteries start getting drained continuously for a long period. Granted, if you can make absolutely sure that this won't ever happen, you won't be taxing the batteries too hard. But then we are assuming you understand how to stop the mod from auto firing, in the possible event that it does that, before it will be too late─and assuming you understand what can happen if you forget to turn the wattage down again before you leave the mod unattended in such a way that the fire button might get pressed for a long time by accident. So still something to be aware of when you're talking to someone who isn't familiar with all this stuff just yet.

Finally, if you are worried about the fact that the LG HB6 has such a frustratingly low capacity and you need your batteries to be 30 amps, then you should consider getting a mod that can support batteries the size of which is bigger than an 18650. This brings me back to my point about rewraps, as the best performing 30 amp 18650 battery available to us─and that seriously outperforms the HB6─happens to be another rewrap by Vapcell, and, if going for the bigger sized batteries instead, then, depending on where you live, you might have a hard time looking past some of the rewraps. Because, where I live (Europe, outside the UK) the only 30 amp 20700 and either 30 or 35 amp 21700 batteries available to me right now happen to be also rewraps, the best performing ones being rewraps by, yeah you guessed it: Vapcell.

I believe everything you stated is 100% accurate. TBH I didn't read every word thoroughly cuz I am tired. The point of my post was to cover the general statements without boring someone to death with specifics, BECAUSE the question was safety and 20 amp batteries vaped below 60watts per cell are safe under most given circumstances. Are they the most efficient? that is a different question. Your statements along with mooch have had me convinced for a while that my next battery set will be VTC5as and since I use 1VV and 3PWM mods and 1 VW not in TC, I am hoping to notice a difference in battery life considering how low I set my mods (about 40ish watt equivalency on a .80ish ohm SS coil) compared to my LG HG2s

Also the question was about 18650s not the other sizes.

I get you know your stuff. And most of the time I don't think I am disagreeing or arguing with you. we just have different points we are making. Because just like in your situation having to get rewraps for various reasons, people have the batteries they have or access to the batteries they do and I am just trying to help. I also forget you don't live in the states and that changes what you can or can't get, and I forget everyone who asks on here is not from the states either. There may come a time when rewraps are all any of us can get due to regulations or whatever.