Regulated Mods - Too Weak?

[Exaco]

Hello everyone, recently i saw *U***D 200 will come out soon, the connection seems to be in Series ( But in regulated mods i think there's no such thing as Series or Parallel ). So it came with Triple Cells at 200W..

How come triple cells could produce max output of 200W? ( even on regulated ) meanwhile there's double cells mods that comes up to 220W ( e.g. H Priv ).

So after analyzing how the regulated mods work based on ohms law they basically just change the Voltage based on resistance and wattage setting.

Let's say i have Series build at 0.38ohm on this mod also using "True 25A" battery thats recommended..

Here's the settings it would run at:
8.7V - 200W - 22A draw
... meanwhile on mech Series x3 cell mod:
12.6V - 417W - 33A draw
.. Matched the amp draw:
12.6V - 278W - 22A ( Raised to 0.57ohm )

The voltage difference alone is huge, easily would overperform the regulated.

Now the same just with parallel build - 0.08ohm:

Regulated mod:
4V - 200W - 50A draw
Mech:
4.2V - 220W - 52A draw

Not much of a difference on this build example, what about "Maxed Out" amp draw e.g. 3x25A ( 75A )?
Regulated:
2.6V - 200W - 0.03ohm ( .03 Not supported by the reference mod, minimum is 0.05 )
Mech:
4.2V - 315W - 0.056ohm
Regulated with 0.056:
3.3V - 200W - 59A draw..
.. Now the difference is huge.


So it's all about the safety and all build support, right ?

 

[conanthewarrior]

A regulated mods amp load only depends on input voltage, and watts- resistance doesn't come into the mix. It is how you can run 0.06 TC builds without blowing up.

The calcuation is (Watts/minimum single battery voltage/number of batteries)/mod efficiency.

Series and parallel does indeed exist with regulated mods, most run in series, but mods like the Istick 100, which can use 1 or 2 cells, run in parallel.

So, for a dual 18650 mod, this would be the calculation at 220W.

220/3.2/2=34.375A. This is assuming a cutoff of 3.2V a cell, and before efficiency. At say 90% efficiency, this goes up to 38.19A!

With a 3 cell mod, the input voltage is higher, which results in a lower amp load.

For 200W with 3 cells, the calculation is:

200/3.2/3=20.83A. Say 90% efficiency again, this leaves you at 23.14A.

You can see how a triple 18650 setup allows you to achieve a higher power setting with a lower amp load. So there are 220W dual 18650 mods, but they are pushing limits of batteries.
So a mechanical mod won't necessarily result in more power than a regulated mod, the opposite can be true as you can adjust the wattage, and in doing so voltage hitting your atomiser, on a regulated device.

The output amp load is calculated with your standard ohms law calculation at your set output voltage/wattage. It is how the DNA200's input fuse blows at 25A, but can output a burst of 55A and a constant 50A.

 

[nightshard]

/|\ what he said.

At the end of the day a regulated device is limited by it's max wattage and an unregulated device is limited by how much you are willing to stress the batteries.
A series 2 battery mech box with 30A batteries can safely reach 250W and one with 3 batteries can easily pass 350W

The DNA way is playing it safe 133/200 with 20A batteries (or 167/250 with higher drain batteries).
The Chinese 220 with 2 batteries way is not safe with any type of batteries.

 

[Exaco]

@nightshard take 18650 Stacked series mod, put in LG HB4, you have 60A limit ( based on mooch 5sec on/30sec off ). Put 0.15ohm build aaand you got 56A draw and 470W only on 2 batteries, but what if i put HB4 and 0.15 build into a regulated mod ? Thats the problem here.

The conclusion is that regulated mods suck for performance, right ?

I think regulated mods needs better chips which has more control over the batteries such as "Safety Off" function where you could reach full battery potential by manually entering the battery model ( the chip should have battery specs stored in it, so it handles the temp/fire time etc differently for each one and is much safer than mech itself, then it would be another talk ).

In my opinion mechs is way too overpowered compared to regulated.

Also recently i've seen that regulated explodes more often than mech mods, whats going on ? I mean these liveleak etc videos, after watching them closely you can nearly everytime see a regulated mod laying on the ground.

 

[nightshard]

I do not pulse my batteries, don't participate in competitions or need 400W, that why I use my batteries within their CDR and not their pulse rating.

Can mech boxes reach higher wattage? Yes, do I (or anyone else for that matter) need 300+ W at the moment? No

So my conclusion is that regulated mods are just where they need to be at performance while mechs lack control, protection and stability.

While regulated devices offer some protection, in the matter of battery safety they still lack the ability to limit the mod to the battery(s) amp rating, so they are not entirely "safety on".

 

[Exaco]

Yes, for daily vape we don't need that much, but still there's alot of cloud chasers out here and they indeed want performance.

 

[Pancho_Brown]

@nightshard take 18650 Stacked series mod, put in LG HB4, you have 60A limit ( based on mooch 5sec on/30sec off ). Put 0.15ohm build aaand you got 56A draw and 470W only on 2 batteries, but what if i put HB4 and 0.15 build into a regulated mod ? Thats the problem here.

The conclusion is that regulated mods suck for performance, right ?

I think regulated mods needs better chips which has more control over the batteries such as "Safety Off" function where you could reach full battery potential by manually entering the battery model ( the chip should have battery specs stored in it, so it handles the temp/fire time etc differently for each one and is much safer than mech itself, then it would be another talk ).

In my opinion mechs is way too overpowered compared to regulated.

Also recently i've seen that regulated explodes more often than mech mods, whats going on ? I mean these liveleak etc videos, after watching them closely you can nearly everytime see a regulated mod laying on the ground.

First off, when batteries are stacked in series the amp limit stays the same. The voltage is the only thing that doubles. It's the opposite for parallel set ups. The amps "double" and the voltage stays the same.
Second thing, a .15 build would be insanely hot. It would be hard to imagine that vape being enjoyable

 

[Jim_MDP]

Exaco, I think your reg mod battery idea leaves out the variable that cells degrade in performance/capability as they age... that condition would take something new to monitor.
But for vapers with a minimum of experience, and a modicum of intelligence, it's simply not a problem.

However...

...
Also recently i've seen that regulated explodes more often than mech mods, whats going on ? I mean these liveleak etc videos, after watching them closely you can nearly everytime see a regulated mod laying on the ground.

I think you're mistaken here.
Over the past two years, I think the thermal runaways fall into two broad categories...

On the mech side, it seems to often (predominately?) be using a sub-ohm tank on a hybrid-style (pseudo hybrid) top cap, the tank not having a properly protruding 510 pin.
Frequently it turns out to be an Aspire tank. I think an explanation I've seen is the use of softer insulators allowing the pin to be pressed in, creating a hard short to the battery. Ouch.

On the regulated side... it's virtually everytime a loose battery in a pocket, not a malfunction of the mod.
Double ouch.
But not the fault of the mod.

In fact... both are definitely user error.
Very few reg mods have an actual auto-fire malfunction (I own a couple myself), but obviously quite a few mech mod users are too inexperienced for the tools they're playing with.

When someone loses a finger in the garage... we don't usually find the table saw at fault.

 

[nightshard]

When someone loses a finger in the garage... we don't usually find the table saw at fault.

And we don't heard about it on the news either, cos nobody cares.

 

[Jim_MDP]

And we don't heard about it on the news either, cos nobody cares.

Quite right.
They take it as a learning experience and return to work at the High School woodworking shop.

Lefty, I believe he's named.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Every regulated story I have seen, as mentioned has been a loose battery.

The latest one I saw was with what looked like an RX200, 3 brown 18650's which I gather were LG HG2's, but in the larger image there was also 3 unwrapped batteries, plus scorched change on the floor.

So, someone had been carrying a mod, along with 3 unwrapped batteries, and change in their pocket. There was no wonder the video showed a firework display going off in their pocket.

I do understand what you are saying in that with a mech, it is possible to go stupidly high powered. However, I still think that being able to hit 50A and 200W is more than enough for all but the very power hungry user. Even then though, when you are trying to pull more than 200W and nearly 30A from one tiny 18650, it can't really be classed as the safest way of getting that power.

Some people build insane PWM boxes, with suitable set ups for very high wattage levels. I wouldn't need this, but if you wanted to vape at half a KW, you can do so this way.

 

[Exaco]

still think that being able to hit 50A and 200W is more than enough for all but the very power hungry user.

You don't understand what you're talking about, right? 50A/200W that would be something on single 18650 tube mod, and since when 1 battery can be enough for a cloud chaser ? Im daily vaping around 200W on a Series mod and its waaaaay too weak.

 

[Jim_MDP]

... Im daily vaping around 200W on a Series mod and its waaaaay too weak.

I find this statement oddly unimpressive.

Perhaps further testing/experimentation with various build designs would help. You've certainly got more than enough raw power to overwhelm any pair of lungs... if the build is right.

 

[conanthewarrior]

You don't understand what you're talking about, right? 50A/200W that would be something on single 18650 tube mod, and since when 1 battery can be enough for a cloud chaser ? Im daily vaping around 200W on a Series mod and its waaaaay too weak.

Sorry, in which part do I not understand what I am talking about?
I explained to you how a regulated mod works in my previous post to you, to help correct your mistakes in your examples regarding calculating for a regulated mod, you did not understand series or parallel existed in the regulated world ,and also think that regulated mods are 'weak'.

Only the most demanding user would think that 200W is weak.

If you think 200W and 50A is something suitable for a single 18650 tube mech, I think it may be you who lacks understanding unfortunately, and I mean this in the nicest way possible.

And where did I state one battery is enough for a cloud chaser? I was just stating when you are trying to pull massive amounts of power from a battery, it is not the safest way to do things.

What type of build are you running for 200W? There are regulated devices that offer more power than this if you want them, or you could use a PWM mod, or if you wanted push a mechanical mods batteries dangerously far. Or you could try different builds to likely get what you need at much less than 200W.

I think we have got our wires crossed somewhere, I am not sure where exactly though.

 

[Exaco]

Usually standard clapton ( 26GA+32GA ) dual build @ 3mm and around 8-9 wraps each at 0.34ohm. Noisy Cricket + Tsunami 22 RDA

"If you think 200W and 50A is something suitable for a single 18650 tube mech, I think it may be you who lacks understanding unfortunately, and I mean this in the nicest way possible."

I was talking about performance in general, you wont go to cloud chase comp with a VTC5 and use a 18A draw build on a tube mech, right ? That would be only suitable for daily vaping. Most of these guys there uses 0.07ohm-0.11ohm builds on a single 18650 ( Mostly LG HB series i guess which are true 30A batteris and capable of going up to 50A or even more ) which is considered "BOOM" by average vapers. Plus it's not even battery damaging as long as there's no chain vaping. Also i do not feel difference between 100W and 200W or even 250W, they all hit softly and smooth, the difference is only vapor amount, steel lungs maybe ? To give a better idea vaping on 150W dual clapton build feels like im inhaling air with very minor throat hit ( always using 20-25%~ PG juices ).

 

[conanthewarrior]

Usually standard clapton ( 26GA+32GA ) dual build @ 3mm and around 8-9 wraps each at 0.34ohm. Noisy Cricket + Tsunami 22 RDA

"If you think 200W and 50A is something suitable for a single 18650 tube mech, I think it may be you who lacks understanding unfortunately, and I mean this in the nicest way possible."

I was talking about performance in general, you wont go to cloud chase comp with a VTC5 and use a 18A draw build on a tube mech, right ? That would be only suitable for daily vaping. Most of these guys there uses 0.07ohm-0.11ohm builds on a single 18650 ( Mostly LG HB series i guess which are true 30A batteris and capable of going up to 50A or even more ) which is considered "BOOM" by average vapers. Plus it's not even battery damaging as long as there's no chain vaping.

Hi mate.

Obviously in that case people are pushing limits hard, and no you wouldn't go to a cloud chasing competition with something that puts out a low power I agree. But at 0.07, your voltage under load is going to be very low due to the amount of power you are asking one 18650 to provide, and that 200W would very unlikely be achievable due to this.

It is true the HB series, such as the HB6 are true 30A batteries, although I and many others would not push them past this. Some people are OK doing so, if that is their thing, then thats cool. I just would hate for a 'BOOM' scenario to occur due to the press, and the already negative light vaping gets a lot of the time.