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Russ Wishtart of Click Bang Radio is paying out of his own pocket to get Suicide Bunny juice tested

.......Tim

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I do not at all believe her or the testresults she has provided after that long. Something is just not right. I was one of the first to comment about the missing results for AP when she posted the test for Diacetyl only. She blocked me and deleted my messages!?? She will not answer my mails. I am admin in a large Norwegian vapingcommunity at Facebook and I'm so disappointed with her deleting a lot of questions and criticism. It makes me scared. She makes me scared. The hunger for profit makes people lie I'm afraid.

I don't believe her either. Too many deleted Facebook posts now, her celebration video quickly had comments removed, and she refuses to address the difference in the two tests. She seems determined to play victim through this. Instead of trying to find out why the results were so different she made a Youtube video to pat herself on the back. This whole thing is a grenade with the pin out. Many people are sending in their own samples now and I know of at least one store owner sending samples who videotaped the process. In another week or two things are going to get real interesting.
 

Vangrl

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and she just removed her latest post insinuating that there is no clear evidence that diacetyl is the cause of popcorn lung, which was an extremely bad p.r move to have put that up to begin with.

She's probably deleted about 90% of the posts on her facebook posts over the last few weeks. I totally get deleting the nasty comments, but a lot of posts were really informative, and not bashing at all.

It's a shame that she was singled out (i guess) but it sure has brought awareness to the community, and other vendors seem to be jumping on the testing because of it. She really handled this so poorly, this actually could have been a really positive for her had she acted more maturely & professional about the situation.
 

KKen

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Once you have VAPERS pissed off about the evasiveness of many of these e-liquid manufacturers, that's all the grease the FDA will really need to push through regulations to ban all flavorings in pre-packaged e-juice.

I'm having a big issue with several manufacturers I've been loyal with myself; basically every specific question I am sending in I get a totally vague response in return.

Flavors are great, and may be difficult to kick, but like smoking cigarettes which I also thought was great, there are alternatives if you are willing to take it.

Personally, for me, I decided to simply dilute my current e-liquids with about an 80% VG ratio and nicotine to bring back the ratio to 4-6%. I'm still vaping the popcorn lung chemicals, but at a level I am comfortable with while still having a flavor undertone. Perhaps eventually, I might just go with straight VG and nic, then to straight VG, and done with everything altogether ;)
 

HoseGarden

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and she just removed her latest post insinuating that there is no clear evidence that diacetyl is the cause of popcorn lung, which was an extremely bad p.r move to have put that up to begin with.

She's probably deleted about 90% of the posts on her facebook posts over the last few weeks. I totally get deleting the nasty comments, but a lot of posts were really informative, and not bashing at all.

It's a shame that she was singled out (i guess) but it sure has brought awareness to the community, and other vendors seem to be jumping on the testing because of it. She really handled this so poorly, this actually could have been a really positive for her had she acted more maturely & professional about the situation.

hindight is 2020

you cant really hold the way she's responded against her (at least i dont). this is what happens when you fuck with a person's livelihood....they get pissed!!! people get angry with each other over harmless trolling on internet forums. now, take that and magnify by a million and suddenly it's not very surprising
 
hindight is 2020

you cant really hold the way she's responded against her (at least i dont). this is what happens when you fuck with a person's livelihood....they get pissed!!! people get angry with each other over harmless trolling on internet forums. now, take that and magnify by a million and suddenly it's not very surprising


I'm a bit shocked. I'm a worried consumer with already damaged lungs. Not her psychiatric caretaker. I want my concerned questions answered and not deleted. One have to act professional when stuff like this happens and answer questions asked, in a professional way. Of course it's ok to delete nasty comments but she was an idiot to act the way she did and that will naturally have consequences for the trust I and others have in ALL e-liquid manufacturers.
 

UncleRJ

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I am not a fan of folks deleting messages or post just for asking questions. Brings up lots of jolly red flags to me.
 

VapedCrusader

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I am not a fan of folks deleting messages or post just for asking questions. Brings up lots of jolly red flags to me.

Exactly.. if you have nothing to hide in the first place, why care so much to delete them? it always looks shady when people do this.. especially businesses worried about bad publicity.. theres a reason why her juices have become such a topic with these ingredients.. and its probably not a good reason lol.
 
Are we still doing RJR's work for them? You guy's are gonna give Reynolds all the ammo they need for getting Congress to put an "emergency state" in effect on non-big tobacco companies e-cig juice manufacturers. Kind of sad to see everyone here believing the shills and getting led down this path to regulation. E-juice for kids didn't work yet, but you guys are certainly trying to make sure this whisper campaign is successful. You are attacking your own instead of trying to figure out who has the carrot and where they want to lead you.
 

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Are we still doing RJR's work for them? You guy's are gonna give Reynolds all the ammo they need for getting Congress to put an "emergency state" in effect on non-big tobacco companies e-cig juice manufacturers. Kind of sad to see everyone here believing the shills and getting led down this path to regulation. E-juice for kids didn't work yet, but you guys are certainly trying to make sure this whisper campaign is successful. You are attacking your own instead of trying to figure out who has the carrot and where they want to lead you.
so , according to you, we cant call out our own to clean up their act !!!
fuck you !!
we will continue to call out shitty manufacturers, juice makers that dont police their product, shyster ebay sellers, and everybody else that hides behind lies, smoke & mirrors , deceptive advertising and the shit ton slew of other crap thats pulled in this industry...
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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Are we still doing RJR's work for them? You guy's are gonna give Reynolds all the ammo they need for getting Congress to put an "emergency state" in effect on non-big tobacco companies e-cig juice manufacturers. Kind of sad to see everyone here believing the shills and getting led down this path to regulation. E-juice for kids didn't work yet, but you guys are certainly trying to make sure this whisper campaign is successful. You are attacking your own instead of trying to figure out who has the carrot and where they want to lead you.
I see your point, and have thought it myself... However, this issue truly pertains to our health. I'm not gonna bury my head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue. The FDA will do as they please no matter what, and I see this as us banding together to further increase the harm reduction we sought in the first place, through vaping. It does pose a quandary and I see how it could give them more ammo, but again, they'll do what they're gonna do regardless, so we might as well try to be safe.
 
call out the skittles juice makers, sure! BUT to continue a witch hunt that has been revealed to be false...that's not smart. But you guys are enjoying it too much so carry on with your torches and pitchforks. You are chasing a manufactured issue and eating it up, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead...I'll be over with the rest of the NOT cool kids. And next year when you are screwed, blued and tattooed by the FDA, remember you did it to yourself.
 

Ellipsis

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call out the skittles juice makers, sure! BUT to continue a witch hunt that has been revealed to be false...that's not smart. But you guys are enjoying it too much so carry on with your torches and pitchforks. You are chasing a manufactured issue and eating it up, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead...I'll be over with the rest of the NOT cool kids. And next year when you are screwed, blued and tattooed by the FDA, remember you did it to yourself.
please, sir...
please stop...
your scaring my new puppy...
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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call out the skittles juice makers, sure! BUT to continue a witch hunt that has been revealed to be false...that's not smart. But you guys are enjoying it too much so carry on with your torches and pitchforks. You are chasing a manufactured issue and eating it up, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead...I'll be over with the rest of the NOT cool kids. And next year when you are screwed, blued and tattooed by the FDA, remember you did it to yourself.
I don't think we need to start an argument and see this thread devolve into a mess. Again, I see your point... More ammo for the FDA, great... However, again, this is our health, and we have the right to at the least learn as much as possible, and desire transparency. Ultimately, for now while juices are still available unrestricted, we make our own choices. I know I'm vaping diketones, no doubt. I don't like it, but I am choosing to continue for now, and hope that viable alternatives will surface. Hell, my juice order in the mailbox today had 102ml bottle of Butterscotch, that's a lot of diacetyl I'd guess. It's kinda an ADV for me, though, which sucks.

Just realize that I think the intentions are good in this situation. I don't see how desiring to reduce risk is a bad thing, nor is being an informed consumer. And again as well, the FDA might get more ammunition from this, but they certainly don't need it, nor will our community keeping quiet change their knowledge of it. Peace!
 

Mommay

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call out the skittles juice makers, sure! BUT to continue a witch hunt that has been revealed to be false...that's not smart. But you guys are enjoying it too much so carry on with your torches and pitchforks. You are chasing a manufactured issue and eating it up, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead...I'll be over with the rest of the NOT cool kids. And next year when you are screwed, blued and tattooed by the FDA, remember you did it to yourself.

I do not believe the issue has been falsely proven. However, your opinion is important. But, You might be surprised at how far a little common courtesy will get you - here & in life.
 
Once again you are chasing a manufactured issue that has NO bad results behind the scare tactics. Didn't you live thru the entire second hand smoke crap? This is the same thing and the community is running around eating it's own. If you want scary health issues that are true, come visit me this week I live in Dallas!!!!!!
 

LoveVanilla

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Once again you are chasing a manufactured issue that has NO bad results behind the scare tactics. Didn't you live thru the entire second hand smoke crap? This is the same thing and the community is running around eating it's own. If you want scary health issues that are true, come visit me this week I live in Dallas!!!!!!

And your evidence that this is a manufactured issue is exactly what? The diacetyl issue has been widely known in vaping world for TEN YEARS. And suppliers have lied -- repeatedly.

Words are no longer enough. Their customers will be independently testing their products and voracity -- you can bet money on that. And damn straight, we're going to call out shady suppliers. I personally think there are some businesses that should be shuttered and their owners jailed. Our money will go to suppliers who demonstrate that they are advocates for our health.

Any supplier who has not yet received this message loudly and clearly is just too damn dumb to be in this business. They need to get with the program, or be gone. And if they do not, they will quickly find their lot in life is about to get a whole lot worse.

Kapish?
 

VapinChevy

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All this talk is really making me stick with Kalamazoo Vapor :D They're Diacetyl FREE :p
 
All this talk is really making me stick with Kalamazoo Vapor :D They're Diacetyl FREE :p
Once again you are chasing a manufactured issue that has NO bad results behind the scare tactics. Didn't you live thru the entire second hand smoke crap? This is the same thing and the community is running around eating it's own. If you want scary health issues that are true, come visit me this week I live in Dallas!!!!!!
It is a big trustissue and problem that manufacturers do not tell us the thruth and When Glantz learn about this and perform his shady studies WHO likes so Much, What do you think Will happen? We have to adress this before Glantz and FDA do.
 

.......Tim

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Once again you are chasing a manufactured issue that has NO bad results behind the scare tactics. Didn't you live thru the entire second hand smoke crap? This is the same thing and the community is running around eating it's own. If you want scary health issues that are true, come visit me this week I live in Dallas!!!!!!

Pip stopped being one of our own when she decided to pat herself on the back in a Youtube video instead of trying to figure out the disparity in the results from two separate labs. There will very likely be a giant shitstorm once all the independent results come back from the labs in another week or so and Pip will be to blame for that shitstorm. She could have handled it a lot differently, she made her choice, this roller coaster has no brakes now.

I'm with you on the skittles juices. Just imagine the damage one bottle of Radiator Pluid could do to all of us. But don't forget, popcorn lung is already a well worn catchphrase, and it's long hanging fruit right now.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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I have been ordering from a vendor that is inexpensive, but really tasty, and I mentioned this in the other diacetyl thread which devolved into shit slinging. They had posted on the home page "100%" diacetyl free, and within a day or so of the mod envy show about this, they removed it. I still have ordered from them, and commend them for taking that action. It seems that no vendor is truly diacetyl AP or diketone free, so not making false statements is something that is ethical, and I respect. I wish more vendors would be honest. This does need to get figured out... As I vape butterscotch juice...
 

vapingunited

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It seems that no vendor is truly diacetyl AP or diketone free, so not making false statements is something that is ethical, and I respect. I wish more vendors would be honest. This does need to get figured out... As I vape butterscotch juice...

I'm not sure that's entirely true. There are "juices" and vendors that are 100% Diacetyl/AP free. I'm not a scientist, but from what I gather, most of the juices that contain what is being called "trace amounts" of these molecules, typically under the "safe limit" set by the FDA, use another flavor component called Acetoin which, because it's often made in facilities where Diacetyl is made, can contain trace amounts of Diacetyl as a result of contamination.

The bottom line of this discussion is that, regardless of whether or not you "care" if it's in your liquids or not, the consumer has a right to be informed, so that they can make that choice themselves. Sure it's expensive to test all of your juices (even small companies can have 50+ flavors), but in the long run it would be money well spent. Even if you continue to sell the flavors containing these components, the fact that you've informed your customers should help to indemnify you somewhat. It's much easier, from a legal standpoint, to defend yourself when you've informed your customer than it is to say "I didn't know".

Vendors need to really wake up. There are people out there ACTIVELY trying to hurt this industry, and things like this give them ammunition to use against us. The saddest part about it is that they are AVOIDABLE and what should be common sense. I assume that labs like Enthalpy give discounts to those testing large numbers of samples, however, even at the normal ~$150 per flavor it's a sound investment and could help add another layer of protection, not to mention display some actual responsibility. If you can't bear the costs, ask your flavor providers to pay or at least contribute. After all, it's their responsibility too.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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I'm not sure that's entirely true. There are "juices" and vendors that are 100% Diacetyl/AP free. I'm not a scientist, but from what I gather, most of the juices that contain what is being called "trace amounts" of these molecules, typically under the "safe limit" set by the FDA, use another flavor component called Acetoin which, because it's often made in facilities where Diacetyl is made, can contain trace amounts of Diacetyl as a result of contamination.

The bottom line of this discussion is that, regardless of whether or not you "care" if it's in your liquids or not, the consumer has a right to be informed, so that they can make that choice themselves. Sure it's expensive to test all of your juices (even small companies can have 50+ flavors), but in the long run it would be money well spent. Even if you continue to sell the flavors containing these components, the fact that you've informed your customers should help to indemnify you somewhat. It's much easier, from a legal standpoint, to defend yourself when you've informed your customer than it is to say "I didn't know".

Vendors need to really wake up. There are people out there ACTIVELY trying to hurt this industry, and things like this give them ammunition to use against us. The saddest part about it is that they are AVOIDABLE and what should be common sense. I assume that labs like Enthalpy give discounts to those testing large numbers of samples, however, even at the normal ~$150 per flavor it's a sound investment and could help add another layer of protection, not to mention display some actual responsibility. If you can't bear the costs, ask your flavor providers to pay or at least contribute. After all, it's their responsibility too.
If your first paragraph is true, please give some links. I definitely care, i just see the evidence, and it seems to suggest that diketones are present in most all liquids. Thats not an attack, just id love to know what vendors are actually testing and providing results. Somone linked to NicVape, who did do testing, so theres a start.

I 100% agree with the rest of your post. Very well said, and so true.
 

Hermit

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Yes, indeed, it's not a question of whether we care, or even whether it's harmful to vape. It's simply that when substances that have workplace inhalation limits set are found in flavours/juices, it's ammunition that's damaging to the future of vaping!

Vapor Bar appear to be taking it seriously, and testing their finished juices.
 

vapingunited

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If your first paragraph is true, please give some links. I definitely care, i just see the evidence, and it seems to suggest that diketones are present in most all liquids. Thats not an attack, just id love to know what vendors are actually testing and providing results. Somone linked to NicVape, who did do testing, so theres a start.

I 100% agree with the rest of your post. Very well said, and so true.

Check out AEMSA (American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association). All members have all juice tested with them (via Enthalpy labs) and certified. They are tested for various things, among which include Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionate.

Click on "Standards" to read the PDF of what they test for and allow/not allow. Specifically section 2.05 titled "The following will not be added or used in the creation of E-Liquids".

It would be great if all companies were creating liquids to these standards (even if they weren't members), but, sadly, they are not.
 

vapingunited

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The bottom line of this discussion is that, regardless of whether or not you "care" if it's in your liquids or not, the consumer has a right to be informed...

To clarify what I meant above when I used "care", I wasn't referring to whether or not you care about the industry, I was stating that there are people who may choose to vape liquids fully knowing these ingredients are present, which is entirely their choice and up to them. But for those companies that don't have that information readily available, well, their customers aren't getting to make that choice because they aren't informed.

Additionally, I care because of the results in Dr. Farsalinos' study. I didn't smoke in the house, but I do vape in the house. I don't vape in the same room as my family, but it is in the same house. The study found that juices containing these ingredients had the same amount present in the vapor as was in the juice. Now, again, even if I make the choice to vape juices with these ingredients, it's not fair for me to make that choice for my family without their knowledge. If I'm not informed that a juice does or does not contain these ingredients, then I am taking an AVOIDABLE risk on behalf of both myself and my family.

This is about Tobacco Harm Reduction, and if that's what we commit to, then we should commit to MAXIMUM reduction, and accept absolutely NOTHING less. Ask your vendors for lab reports. Show them you know and care about what you're using. It's the only way things will change on our terms. Otherwise, we can let the government step in and basically destroy the industry...but they're going to do that anyway.
 
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There's a local B&M where I'm at in Florida, that no joke, was putting Monster Energy drink into their "monster" flavor. And their name is Monster Vapin'. Soooo... there's that.
 

vapingunited

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There's a local B&M where I'm at in Florida, that no joke, was putting Monster Energy drink into their "monster" flavor. And their name is Monster Vapin'. Soooo... there's that.

That's just...wow...I don't even....I can't...omg.

^^ That's why the FDA is going to bring the hammer down and that's the image that all of the good companies will be overshadowed with when it's all said and done....just sad.
 

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If your first paragraph is true, please give some links. I definitely care, i just see the evidence, and it seems to suggest that diketones are present in most all liquids. Thats not an attack, just id love to know what vendors are actually testing and providing results. Somone linked to NicVape, who did do testing, so theres a start.

I 100% agree with the rest of your post. Very well said, and so true.

Coming from Linda at TFA, trace amounts of Diacetyl can form during the production of the molecule (Acetoin), though it's unlikely to do so once the flavor is mixed/blended. So it is possible for trace amounts of Diacetyl to show up in any e-liquid that uses a flavoring that contains Acetoin.

She didn't state what trace amounts averaged out to be, just that it could potentially happen and that she tested a sample from Vigon Intl. using GC/MS and Diacetyl was found. So even though their manufacturer is prohibited from having Diacetyl in their facility due to insurance restrictions on worker safety, and even though Diacetyl is not in their facility and is not directly added to their flavors, trace amounts may be present in some flavors that contain Acetoin. The only definitive way to know is to test the flavor concentrate and then the completed product to confirm.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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Coming from Linda at TFA, trace amounts of Diacetyl can form during the production of the molecule (Acetoin), though it's unlikely to do so once the flavor is mixed/blended. So it is possible for trace amounts of Diacetyl to show up in any e-liquid that uses a flavoring that contains Acetoin.

She didn't state what trace amounts averaged out to be, just that it could potentially happen and that she tested a sample from Vigon Intl. using GC/MS and Diacetyl was found. So even though their manufacturer is prohibited from having Diacetyl in their facility due to insurance restrictions on worker safety, and even though Diacetyl is not in their facility and is not directly added to their flavors, trace amounts may be present in some flavors that contain Acetoin. The only definitive way to know is to test the flavor concentrate and then the completed product to confirm.
I think this was mentioned during the mod envy show dedicated to this subject. Thank you for the detailed info.

@vapingunited I fully understood what you meant by care. I am choosing to vape, and even if I seek out vendors that post test results, of which I know one, I am trusting their honesty. What I'm getting at is simple. I do not want myself nor anybody vaping on diacetyl, AP, or any diketones, I just have serious doubts from what I've read that they are completely avoidable. I really hope transparency becomes the norm, and we as a community of vapers can help assist in getting there hopefully, if vendors see that this is such a known and serious issue. You mention in your post to ask vendors for test results, and that is exactly the sort of thing that will get the ball rolling. If we make enough noise, to the vendors that is, they will start to listen. One would hope at least...

It would also be nice to know what amounts of these chemicals are truly and definitively harmful, specifically as it relates to vaping. That, however, will take a detailed controlled long term study, and with the FDA on our ass already, is doubtful. Harm reduction is the purpose, and hopefully this can all be sorted, but its still better than smoking.
 

vapingunited

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Coming from Linda at TFA, trace amounts of Diacetyl can form during the production of the molecule (Acetoin), though it's unlikely to do so once the flavor is mixed/blended. So it is possible for trace amounts of Diacetyl to show up in any e-liquid that uses a flavoring that contains Acetoin.

She didn't state what trace amounts averaged out to be, just that it could potentially happen and that she tested a sample from Vigon Intl. using GC/MS and Diacetyl was found. So even though their manufacturer is prohibited from having Diacetyl in their facility due to insurance restrictions on worker safety, and even though Diacetyl is not in their facility and is not directly added to their flavors, trace amounts may be present in some flavors that contain Acetoin. The only definitive way to know is to test the flavor concentrate and then the completed product to confirm.

Well said Jonathan and therein lies the issue. The "final product" needs to be tested. Not just the components individually. That's an important part of this process I believe, and it's one that can get pretty expensive for vendors with a high number of flavors, but certainly worth the investment in the end.
 

vapingunited

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Coming from Linda at TFA, trace amounts of Diacetyl can form during the production of the molecule (Acetoin), though it's unlikely to do so once the flavor is mixed/blended. So it is possible for trace amounts of Diacetyl to show up in any e-liquid that uses a flavoring that contains Acetoin.

She didn't state what trace amounts averaged out to be, just that it could potentially happen and that she tested a sample from Vigon Intl. using GC/MS and Diacetyl was found. So even though their manufacturer is prohibited from having Diacetyl in their facility due to insurance restrictions on worker safety, and even though Diacetyl is not in their facility and is not directly added to their flavors, trace amounts may be present in some flavors that contain Acetoin. The only definitive way to know is to test the flavor concentrate and then the completed product to confirm.

Vigon does list Acetyl Propionyl as a "flavor ingredient" though, which poses the exact same risks as Diacetyl. How they use it I don't know, but it's listed on their site where Diacetyl was not.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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Vigon does list Acetyl Propionyl as a "flavor ingredient" though, which poses the exact same risks as Diacetyl.
I'm pretty sure that AP is actually worse. Therein lies the problem... These chemicals are somewhat necessary for some if not all flavors, to my understanding. Diketones, is what I'm referring to. Chemists will just synthesize something new, in the same family, to produce the same flavor. I'm not a scientist, but this goes on in other areas. For instance, the recreational drug "industry" has been doing this for years. A new substance becomes popular and gets emergency scheduled, so chemists make similar ones, which are still legal. Then the process repeats, its an infinite game of cat and mouse. I solely use that analogy, as I feel it is rather similar in respect to how subtle changes can be made to chemicals, to achieve similar results. Who knows if the new one is better or worse for you?
 

vapingunited

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I'm pretty sure that AP is actually worse. Therein lies the problem... These chemicals are somewhat necessary for some if not all flavors, to my understanding. Diketones, is what I'm referring to. Chemists will just synthesize something new, in the same family, to produce the same flavor. I'm not a scientist, but this goes on in other areas. For instance, the recreational drug "industry" has been doing this for years. A new substance becomes popular and gets emergency scheduled, so chemists make similar ones, which are still legal. Then the process repeats, its an infinite game of cat and mouse. I solely use that analogy, as I feel it is rather similar in respect to how subtle changes can be made to chemicals, to achieve similar results. Who knows if the new one is better or worse for you?
Very true. Also, it's listed as a "natural ingredient" in many items as well so when you see "Natural and Artificial Flavors" which I'm seeing more and more, these molecules could be included in that listing.
 

LoveVanilla

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I'm pretty sure that AP is actually worse. Therein lies the problem... These chemicals are somewhat necessary for some if not all flavors, to my understanding. Diketones, is what I'm referring to. Chemists will just synthesize something new, in the same family, to produce the same flavor. I'm not a scientist, but this goes on in other areas. For instance, the recreational drug "industry" has been doing this for years. A new substance becomes popular and gets emergency scheduled, so chemists make similar ones, which are still legal. Then the process repeats, its an infinite game of cat and mouse. I solely use that analogy, as I feel it is rather similar in respect to how subtle changes can be made to chemicals, to achieve similar results. Who knows if the new one is better or worse for you?

Hmmm... Well, gee... This sounds sort of... NO -->EXACTLY<-- like BIG TOBACCO.

SCREW THEM, the horse they rode on. And SCREW any such new wanna be suppliers!!! If a vape supplier is not completely transparent and demonstrating the highest level of integrity, then dump their shit in the toilet. And go with a supplier who is recognized -- and demonstrates -- customer health is a top priority. Honestly, if you don't completely trust a supplier, why would you put shit they sell into your lungs?

My money and business go to suppliers who DEMONSTRATE they proactively protect my health. Words are not enough -- some have LIED. Look hard for evidence of integrity and safety of their ingredients. And NEVER do business with a supplier who has LIED to customers; they have already demonstrated they lack integrity.

It's up to you, but I recommend you do the same.
 
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vapingunited

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Hmmm... Well, gee... This sounds sort of... NO -->EXACTLY<-- like BIG TOBACCO.

SCREW THEM, the horse they rode on. And SCREW any such new wanna be suppliers!!! If a vape supplier is not completely transparent and demonstrating the highest level of integrity, then dump their shit in the toilet. And go with a supplier who is recognized -- and demonstrates -- customer health is a top priority. Honestly, if you don't completely trust a supplier, why would you put shit they sell into your lungs?

My money and business go to suppliers who DEMONSTRATE they are proactively protecting my health. Words are not enough -- some have LIED. So look hard for evidence of their integrity and proof of ingredients. And NEVER do business with a supplier who has previously LIED to their customers; they have already demonstrated their lack of integrity.

It's up to you, but I recommend you do the same.

Transparency is key. It's true that even with these ingredients that vaping is still a much better alternative to smoking, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't maximize the harm reduction. I know I keep saying it, but these are AVOIDABLE risks. They don't need to be there. There are plenty of successful juice companies that have flavors that match the profiles of the ones most common to include these ingredients without them, so it can be done.

Honestly, I truly believe that the vast majority of liquid vendors have the right intentions, but they are taking the "word" of their flavor supplier who, without lab reports, can talk all they want. Nothing matters but proof.
 
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Nrustica

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I've never been able to get on board with the stupid names of the e-liquids. It seems like sleazy marketing. They are selling sugary cereal to children. Behave like an adult and boycott them all. I blame the dumbasses who are hyping and buying this shit.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Transparency is key. It's true that even with these ingredients that vaping is still a much better alternative to smoking, but that doesn't mean we should maximize the harm reduction. I know I keep saying it, but these are AVOIDABLE risks. They don't need to be there. There are plenty of successful juice companies that have flavors that match the profiles of the ones most common to include these ingredients without them, so it can be done.

Honestly, I truly believe that the vast majority of liquid vendors have the right intentions, but they are taking the "word" of their flavor supplier who, without lab reports, can talk all they want. Nothing matters but proof.

It's avoidable to an extent. Why? Short of developing your own flavors, as a vendor, you're limited to what the flavor manufacturers and vendors provide you with. Some may adapt their flavors to suite the needs of e-liquid vendors, some may not. We're asking for the removal of Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl since they are similar and the belief is that they will both do the same thing over time, yet Acetoin is rarely ever mentioned and it has the ability to catalyze in to trace amounts of Diacetyl during the process.

So we're pushing for the removal of two, we get that, then they start using Acetoin. We push for the removal of Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin, then they start using Butyric Acid. What most don't seem to get is that when one thing is taken away, it's going to be replaced with something else to keep the flavor profile similar. As an example, Vanilla Custard just isn't Vanilla Custard without either Diacetyl or a combination of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl. Some try to get close, but the flavor is simply not the same. Coming from Linda, it's nearly impossible to not use these chemicals to create said flavor.

The same can be said of cake, cupcake, and similar flavors. Butter is a primary ingredient in each one unless you go with a vegan alternative. To replicate the flavor, they use one of those chemicals because they are in the business of creating familiar flavors. We're then asking them to throw that all away and make us one that we can use - well, we're telling them they can't use Diacety, Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl - so the next up is Butyric Acid.

Now that Butyric Acid (which has already long been used in many flavors, but just recently started popping up) is making its way in, will this be the next target and labeled an avoidable risk? Look at the chemical description. It certainly doesn't sound any better, but there's a good chance that you've been vaping it for quite some time. It's in TFA's Strawberry Ripe & Sweet Cream, it's also in their Acai flavor. FlavourArt is said to also use it. I've not had the chance to get in touch with them to see in what percentage, but they popped up during a discussion of the chemical. Capella Vanilla Custard v2, French Vanilla v2 and others are also using it as a substitute as well. So you're getting what you're asking for, but in place of one or two of the three, they are replacing it with one other.


I'm a firm believer in transparency. I think each and every single company should have a label on the product description page that either states contains or is confirmed to not contain W, X, Y, Z - it's common sense. But I see a dozen new threads pop up on this topic even month, at least, yet the only common theme is that we all want 3 chemicals gone, but don't seem to realize that in place of 3, another is being put in. So what's next?
 

Jonathan Tittle

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It's kind of like the soft drink industry in many ways. People didn't want to take in so much sugar (when sugar was the primary ingredient) because it's bad, can make you gain weight, can cause diabetes if consumed in large amounts over time etc - so they went with lab-created chemicals such as aspartame, splenda, and other sugar substitutes. Not long after, people started complaining that the taste wasn't right, that these substitutes may be even worse for our health than sugar. In the mean time, HFCS replaced sugar in most all big name-brand soda, and people then started to complain there too. HFSC is bad. Sugar is bad. Chemical substitutes are bad. We'll, so is drinking 12-24+ cans of soda a day, but you do so at your discretion. No one forces you to drink it. It's your choice, just as smoking was your choice.

In the same light, drinking isn't the best for you. A beer a day is said to keep your kidneys flushed, but in excessive consumption, you risk heart disease, liver damage, stomach problems, deteriorating brain functionality etc. The same applies to wine, even though it does have some benefits, but in moderation as well. Nobody is forcing anyone to drink a case of beers, a few bottles of wine or a bottle of liquor, but some people do and some do it daily. Just as some people smoke up to 3-4 packs of cigarettes a day.

Some will end up with problems in their lives, some will grow to 80-90, even 100 years old and live what most would consider a normal lifestyle. I know an elderly lady right now who's 84 and has smoked 2-3 packs a day since she was 14. She has no major health issues and she's probably more active than most teenagers both back when I was one and today. At the same time, I know a few elderly people that probably have one foot in and are not far from the other due to their lifestyle choices.


People can make a huge deal out of anything they want, but as a community, we should be careful what we ask for. We're getting it in the form of chemical substitution, which is what happens in every other major industry. There's a point in which, if we ask and ask and ask, vaping unflavored will be the only option. If you're okay with that, there's nothing wrong with that, but I didn't start vaping to vape on something that tastes, to me, no better than a cigarette.
 

Hermit

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What's next is that some flavours are declared not suitable for vaping, if they can't be produced without dangerous chemicals.

Simple as that.

Is having a realistic custard/cake/danish flavour really that important, in the grand scheme?
 

Jonathan Tittle

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What's next is that some flavours are declared not suitable for vaping, if they can't be produced without dangerous chemicals.

Simple as that.

Is having a realistic custard/cake/danish flavour really that important, in the grand scheme?

To some, yes. To me, not so much as I don't vape too many custards or cake flavors - I do vape some though and taste is what we go on as a society. When something tastes bad, we tend not to eat or otherwise consume it. There's a point to where flavor manufacturers are going to stop and say, we've done our best. Tom from Capella has already stated that they, as a company, are not chasing the hype anymore and that their v2 is where they are moving due to our demands. They've removed Acetyl Propionyl & Acetoin and replaced it with Butyric Acid, another custard note that has a rather nasty description and has the potential to be just as bad. So those who don't want Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl have gotten what they asked for, in the form of chemical substitution. Is Butyric Acid really just as bad? I don't know, I'm not a chemist, but I'm sure we'll start seeing threads pop up on it just as we have the others and eventually, the request for it to be removed will be made.

I will ask everyone a few questions, and it's not to be a smart ass, I truly want to know.

Do you know how many ingredients go in to making an artificial flavor, or how many chemical compounds make up a fruit, vegetable, etc? If so, have you done research on each of those chemicals to verify that they are safe to vape, will cause no long-term effects on your health and that they, on their own, are not problematic?

The answer for 99.9% is most likely no. For one, flavor manufacturers aren't going to tell you what's in the flavors you buy from them short of a few chemicals. It's a trade secret. You can, however, find out what chemicals are in fruits and such, but I honestly don't see any lab, vendor or manufacturer of flavors breaking down 20-30+ chemicals, per flavor, to see which ones are safe to vape. Chance are, there's more than just a handful of chemicals to worry about - not to mention the effects of consistent heating and cooling of a liquid over time.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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It's avoidable to an extent. Why? Short of developing your own flavors, as a vendor, you're limited to what the flavor manufacturers and vendors provide you with. Some may adapt their flavors to suite the needs of e-liquid vendors, some may not. We're asking for the removal of Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl since they are similar and the belief is that they will both do the same thing over time, yet Acetoin is rarely ever mentioned and it has the ability to catalyze in to trace amounts of Diacetyl during the process.

So we're pushing for the removal of two, we get that, then they start using Acetoin. We push for the removal of Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin, then they start using Butyric Acid. What most don't seem to get is that when one thing is taken away, it's going to be replaced with something else to keep the flavor profile similar. As an example, Vanilla Custard just isn't Vanilla Custard without either Diacetyl or a combination of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl. Some try to get close, but the flavor is simply not the same. Coming from Linda, it's nearly impossible to not use these chemicals to create said flavor.

The same can be said of cake, cupcake, and similar flavors. Butter is a primary ingredient in each one unless you go with a vegan alternative. To replicate the flavor, they use one of those chemicals because they are in the business of creating familiar flavors. We're then asking them to throw that all away and make us one that we can use - well, we're telling them they can't use Diacety, Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl - so the next up is Butyric Acid.

Now that Butyric Acid (which has already long been used in many flavors, but just recently started popping up) is making its way in, will this be the next target and labeled an avoidable risk? Look at the chemical description. It certainly doesn't sound any better, but there's a good chance that you've been vaping it for quite some time. It's in TFA's Strawberry Ripe & Sweet Cream, it's also in their Acai flavor. FlavourArt is said to also use it. I've not had the chance to get in touch with them to see in what percentage, but they popped up during a discussion of the chemical. Capella Vanilla Custard v2, French Vanilla v2 and others are also using it as a substitute as well. So you're getting what you're asking for, but in place of one or two of the three, they are replacing it with one other.


I'm a firm believer in transparency. I think each and every single company should have a label on the product description page that either states contains or is confirmed to not contain W, X, Y, Z - it's common sense. But I see a dozen new threads pop up on this topic even month, at least, yet the only common theme is that we all want 3 chemicals gone, but don't seem to realize that in place of 3, another is being put in. So what's next?
This is exactly what I was getting at. It's a constant game of cat and mouse. If these chemicals are needed for said flavor, they will replace the known offenders with similar analogs. Said new chemicals could be even worse. They can repeat this process again and again. This is why I support and desire complete transparency, but I feel I'd be fooling myself to think any e liquid is free from some of these harmful chemicals. We need to know more, but it seems things are way more complicated than once thought.
 

Hermit

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To some, yes. To me, not so much as I don't vape too many custards or cake flavors - I do vape some though and taste is what we go on as a society. When something tastes bad, we tend not to eat or otherwise consume it. There's a point to where flavor manufacturers are going to stop and say, we've done our best. Tom from Capella has already stated that they, as a company, are not chasing the hype anymore and that their v2 is where they are moving due to our demands. They've removed Acetyl Propionyl & Acetoin and replaced it with Butyric Acid, another custard note that has a rather nasty description and has the potential to be just as bad. So those who don't want Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl have gotten what they asked for, in the form of chemical substitution. Is Butyric Acid really just as bad? I don't know, I'm not a chemist, but I'm sure we'll start seeing threads pop up on it just as we have the others and eventually, the request for it to be removed will be made.

I will ask everyone a few questions, and it's not to be a smart ass, I truly want to know.

Do you know how many ingredients go in to making an artificial flavor, or how many chemical compounds make up a fruit, vegetable, etc? If so, have you done research on each of those chemicals to verify that they are safe to vape, will cause no long-term effects on your health and that they, on their own, are not problematic?

The answer for 99.9% is most likely no. For one, flavor manufacturers aren't going to tell you what's in the flavors you buy from them short of a few chemicals. It's a trade secret. You can, however, find out what chemicals are in fruits and such, but I honestly don't see any lab, vendor or manufacturer of flavors breaking down 20-30+ chemicals, per flavor, to see which ones are safe to vape. Chance are, there's more than just a handful of chemicals to worry about - not to mention the effects of consistent heating and cooling of a liquid over time.

Of course not, but that's not really relevant to the point I made, in response to the first point you made... :)

Where taking out certain chemicals from a flavour results in replacements that are equally dubious, we really have to question the need for that flavour. That holds true for both current and any future concerns.

How many custard vapers would go back to smoking if they couldn't get the same custard flavour? How many people wouldn't quit smoking if there were certain flavours they couldn't get in a vape? Overall, I think we're talking a small percentage here. So for something that could threaten vaping as a whole, or flavouring as a whole, is it worth saying "at your own risk, mate"?

Mainly I'm bothered by chemicals already identified as harmful and that have workplace inhalation limits set - because those are the ones that, when found in juice, make an easy target for politicians.
 

KKen

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4twscl.jpg


Well, decided for ME that I'm comfortable doing without flavors, so got a 120ml bottle of straight VG @ 6mg nic. Been vaping this for a few days now and I must say, I'm enjoying this quite a lot, at least until a new study comes out about vaping VG causing kettle-corn lung or whatnot.

Speaking of which, gotta love the "?" on the picture on the bucket, pretty much sums up what I've been vaping for over a year now with many of the ejuice makers LOL
 

KKen

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BTW, if anyone is interested, and for someone like me not comfortable with mixing your own nicotine, a 120ml bottle is only $25 (500ml is $50) at VelvetCloud.com

If you really cant get away from flavoring, then you could grab a flavor vial made by a variety of different manufacturers from WizardLabs.com (about $1.50 each) I have no idea if these are free of all the chemicals in question, but I think much easier to get information on than from some guy mixing juices in the back room of a vape shop.

Personally, based on the lame responses I got from pretty much most of my favorite e-juice makers, I say to hell with them all.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Of course not, but that's not really relevant to the point I made, in response to the first point you made... :)

Where taking out certain chemicals from a flavour results in replacements that are equally dubious, we really have to question the need for that flavour. That holds true for both current and any future concerns.

How many custard vapers would go back to smoking if they couldn't get the same custard flavour? How many people wouldn't quit smoking if there were certain flavours they couldn't get in a vape? Overall, I think we're talking a small percentage here. So for something that could threaten vaping as a whole, or flavouring as a whole, is it worth saying "at your own risk, mate"?

Mainly I'm bothered by chemicals already identified as harmful and that have workplace inhalation limits set - because those are the ones that, when found in juice, make an easy target for politicians.

You're bothered by the chemicals that have been identified, but not those that have yet to be? The other chemicals used in the production of a flavor could be just as dangerous short or long-term, so it would seem logical to worry about them all, not just a handful, even if you're not sure what all of them are. If that's the case, why take the risk at all? Vaping unflavored would seem to be the less risky option here, that way you're not running the risk of potentially being affected by the chemicals that make up any flavoring on the market.

I agree, the chemicals could be an easy target by anyone with an agenda, and the most simple form of regulation the FDA could bring down is to simply ban the presence of Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, Acetoin and Butyric Acid in all e-liquids, thus forcing e-liquid manufacturers to pull e-liquids from the market or reformulate them, but that's where it gets complicated. To reformulate, they would need flavors that are similar to the ones they're pulling from their products. They put a request in with their flavor manufacturer, and here we are again, back in the action of chemical substitution. So now the FDA goes after another chemical (as an example), so where do we go from here? A company is only going to repeat the process so many times before giving up and writing it off as an expense / failure (as any smart business would).

To go back to your question of "Is having a realistic custard/cake/danish flavour really that important, in the grand scheme?" - perhaps not, but let's keep in mind custards, cakes and danish flavors are not the only flavors with those chemicals present. Many fruits contain them as well. As noted above, TFA's Strawberry Ripe contains Butyric Acid and Capella is heading in that direction too with their v2's since so many are asking for Acetyl Propionyl & Acetoin to be removed from their current line. FlavourArt is said to be using Butyric Acid in some as well (I've not confirmed this, but I plan on asking). As far as Hangsen & Inawera are concerned, they don't have to abide by our laws, so if regulations are imposed, vendors would be forced to test their flavors because they are not obligated to tell us anything.

So again, let's say the FDA takes over and regulates said chemicals and requires removal or confirmation of ND in terms of presence via a lab certified report. Where do we go from there? It's only logical to think that right around the corner will be yet another chemical, and another and then another. The FDA isn't exactly known for having our best interests in mind, just take a look at what they allow through and what happens as a result. The prescription drug industry is a prime example. Tobacco is an obvious example as well.

As noted above, we should be very careful of what we ask for. You may not agree with the presence of a certain chemical, but vaping isn't meant to be 100% safe, it's meant to be safer and even that is questionable - yes, we see studies being performed, results from the community showcasing lung functionality returning, but it'd be easy to say that the only reason for it is because you stopped smoking in general, which could apply to anyone who stops, not just those of us who made the switch. To label it safe means you're accepting liability in the event that something, somewhere along the lines, is deemed unsafe and a food flavor manufacturer isn't going to take that risk by labeling a food flavoring safe for inhalation as there are far too many variables in place and no true way to account for them all.
 
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LoveVanilla

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I'm looking for suppliers that remove ingredients KNOWN to be harmful and to research those that seem potentially harmful. Of course there are a lot of unknowns. But this is their business and they should have more knowledge than their end customers. Customers want suppliers who advocate and protect their health; NOT suppliers doing whatever to make the most money, and caveat emptor. But sadly this is our current state of affairs -- with only a few notable exceptions.
 

Hermit

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You're bothered by the chemicals that have been identified, but not those that have yet to be? The other chemicals used in the production of a flavor could be just as dangerous short or long-term, so it would seem logical to worry about them all, not just a handful, even if you're not sure what all of them are. If that's the case, why take the risk at all? Vaping unflavored would seem to be the less risky option here, that way you're not running the risk of potentially being affected by the chemicals that make up any flavoring on the market.

I agree, the chemicals could be an easy target by anyone with an agenda, and the most simple form of regulation the FDA could bring down is to simply ban the presence of Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, Acetoin and Butyric Acid in all e-liquids, thus forcing e-liquid manufacturers to pull e-liquids from the market or reformulate them, but that's where it gets complicated. To reformulate, they would need flavors that are similar to the ones they're pulling from their products. They put a request in with their flavor manufacturer, and here we are again, back in the action of chemical substitution. So now the FDA goes after another chemical (as an example), so where do we go from here? A company is only going to repeat the process so many times before giving up and writing it off as an expense / failure (as any smart business would).

To go back to your question of "Is having a realistic custard/cake/danish flavour really that important, in the grand scheme?" - perhaps not, but let's keep in mind custards, cakes and danish flavors are not the only flavors with those chemicals present. Many fruits contain them as well. As noted above, TFA's Strawberry Ripe contains Butyric Acid and Capella is heading in that direction too with their v2's since so many are asking for Acetyl Propionyl & Acetoin to be removed from their current line. FlavourArt is said to be using Butyric Acid in some as well (I've not confirmed this, but I plan on asking).

So again, let's say the FDA takes over and regulates said chemicals and requires removal or confirmation of ND in terms of presence via a lab certified report. Where do we go from there? It's only logical to think that right around the corner will be yet another chemical, and another and then another. The FDA isn't exactly known for having our best interests in mind, just take a look at what they allow through and what happens as a result. The prescription drug industry is a prime example. Tobacco is an obvious example as well.

As noted above, we should be very careful of what we ask for. You may not agree with the presence of a certain chemical, but vaping isn't meant to be 100% safe, it's meant to be safer. To label it safe means you're accepting liability in the event that something, somewhere along the lines, is deemed unsafe and a food flavor manufacturer isn't going to take that risk by labeling a food flavoring safe for inhalation as there are far too many variables in place and no true way to account for them all.

As I said, I'm most bothered by those that already have regulations covering inhalation, mainly because that will get used as a reason for increased regulation. Personally, I try to avoid those and their replacements, don't miss those flavours, and vary what I vape a lot.

I totally agree with your point about the replacements being (most likely) just as bad, or potentially more harmful. But I'm sure there are many flavourings and e-liquids that would still be good without any replacement, just removal - different, and perhaps less accurate, but still good.

OK, let's say that regulation is almost inevitable in some form. The question then is whether it's better to have a blacklist of certain chemicals, or a whitelist of approved e-liquids. I'd say the former, big tobacco would say the latter. Are there any other likely options?

Custard/cake/danish flavours are the main ones that I can't see how it would be possible to reformulate without using almost identical chemicals - not that they are the only ones that currently contain them. Many fruit extracts contain them, but synthetically produced flavourings don't necessarily require them for the same (or very close) flavour profile.
 

Jonathan Tittle

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As I said, I'm most bothered by those that already have regulations covering inhalation, mainly because that will get used as a reason for increased regulation. Personally, I try to avoid those and their replacements, don't miss those flavours, and vary what I vape a lot.

I totally agree with your point about the replacements being (most likely) just as bad, or potentially more harmful. But I'm sure there are many flavourings and e-liquids that would still be good without any replacement, just removal - different, and perhaps less accurate, but still good.

OK, let's say that regulation is almost inevitable in some form. The question then is whether it's better to have a blacklist of certain chemicals, or a whitelist of approved e-liquids. I'd say the former, big tobacco would say the latter. Are there any other likely options?

Custard/cake/danish flavours are the main ones that I can't see how it would be possible to reformulate without using almost identical chemicals - not that they are the only ones that currently contain them. Many fruit extracts contain them, but synthetically produced flavourings don't necessarily require them for the same (or very close) flavour profile.

My next question would be, how have those regulations, or recommendations affected the tobacco industry? They've not. The FDA permits the sale of tobacco knowing that tobacco contains said chemicals or that said chemicals are a byproduct of combustion, yet they fail to regulate in whole or in part. To regulate e-liquid as a tobacco product and blacklist chemicals would require the FDA to do the same to tobacco since it will fall in to the same category based on the deeming regulations. Considering the money the tobacco industry has and the weight they can push around, I don't see the FDA pushing them to remove or alter their crops to remove said chemicals otherwise they'd of done it when the results were first published. So if they push for e-liquid to be regulated and chemicals be removed, they are showing bias to an entire industry. That'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen and they couldn't cry public health, that excuse wouldn't hold up in court if they don't require both industries to do the same.

IMO, the FDA has a lot to consider and I don't see them initially pushing for a ban on chemical additives unless they are currently illegal in the first place. Their track record with regulation is horrible at best. They don't even (currently) have control over the vitamin market in terms of requiring products to be FDA Approved, and that is an open market with plenty of promises filling people with false hopes and dreams, and as of recent, even vitamins are being added to e-liquid. So we could even take it a step further and if the FDA went after e-liquids with vitamins in them, they would then have to push for control of that market as a whole as well and perform studies on exactly what is and is not safe. That in and of itself would probably tie up their funding for the next decade, if nothing else hits the market during that time (not likely - we'll probably see thousands of vitamin supplements hit the market in such a time, if not 10-20x that). They do regulate them as Dietary Supplements, but it's up to the manufacturer to determine safety and not make false claims - the FDA stands by the sidelines doing nothing, kinda like what they do with tobacco.

One could also argue that they don't require thorough enough testing of prescription medications (i.e. chemicals) before they enter the market as the side effects on the vast majority far exceed what the chemicals we're discussing could do short or even potentially long-term (i.e. death is a common side effect mentioned in *many* prescription ads and in the pamphlets - near-death is not exactly the next best option).


I'm not arguing, by the way, just asking that people open their eyes a bit. Yes, the chemicals we are discussing may potentially cause an illness. It could take 5-10 years, it could take 50-60. Some of us may never even see ill effects in our lifetime. But we're opposed to these chemicals because of published data and we're thinking that the FDA is going to somehow care. They've not shown too much compassion in my lifetime, why would they all of a sudden change their perspective?

The best thing to do, for the industry as a whole, would be for vendors to simply be transparent. Whether it's with a notice, or with lab results and detailed numbers. The consumer, at that point, will make a decision to vape, or not to vape a product. That's exactly how the FDA regulates current tobacco products - the warnings tell you it's bad, but you smoked it anyway. I don't honestly see them changing here. I could be wrong. Maybe we will see a transformed FDA point of view once they finalize what they are going to do, but I see it more as wishful thinking.
 
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Hermit

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My next question would be, how have those regulations, or recommendations affected the tobacco industry? They've not. The FDA permits the sale of tobacco knowing that tobacco contains said chemicals or that said chemicals are a byproduct of combustion, yet they fail to regulate in whole or in part. To regulate e-liquid as a tobacco product and blacklist chemicals would require the FDA to do the same to tobacco since it will fall in to the same category based on the deeming regulations. Considering the money the tobacco industry has and the weight they can push around, I don't see the FDA pushing them to remove or alter their crops to remove said chemicals otherwise they'd of done it when the results were first published. So if they push for e-liquid to be regulated and chemicals be removed, they are showing bias to an entire industry. That'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen and they couldn't cry public health, that excuse wouldn't hold up in court if they don't require both industries to do the same.

IMO, the FDA has a lot to consider and I don't see them initially pushing for a ban on chemical additives unless they are currently illegal in the first place. Their track record with regulation is horrible at best. They don't even (currently) have control over the vitamin market in terms of requiring products to be FDA Approved, and that is an open market with plenty of promises filling people with false hopes and dreams, and as of recent, even vitamins are being added to e-liquid. So we could even take it a step further and if the FDA went after e-liquids with vitamins in them, they would then have to push for control of that market as a whole as well and perform studies on exactly what is and is not safe. That in and of itself would probably tie up their funding for the next decade, if nothing else hits the market during that time (not likely - we'll probably see thousands of vitamin supplements hit the market in such a time, if not 10-20x that). They do regulate them as Dietary Supplements, but it's up to the manufacturer to determine safety and not make false claims - the FDA stands by the sidelines doing nothing, kinda like what they do with tobacco.

One could also argue that they don't require thorough enough testing of prescription medications (i.e. chemicals) before they enter the market as the side effects on the vast majority far exceed what the chemicals we're discussing could do short or even potentially long-term (i.e. death is a common side effect mentioned in *many* prescription ads and in the pamphlets - near-death is not exactly the next best option).

Well, what do you propose? Required transparency, with lab tests?

I'm a firm believer in transparency. I think each and every single company should have a label on the product description page that either states contains or is confirmed to not contain W, X, Y, Z - it's common sense. But I see a dozen new threads pop up on this topic even month, at least, yet the only common theme is that we all want 3 chemicals gone, but don't seem to realize that in place of 3, another is being put in. So what's next?

Now call me a cynic, but I think that gets us to the exact same problem with replacement chemicals as any blacklist regulation would. Makers are going to know they will sell more if they can say "Free of W, X, Y Z"... but what about the ΦΧΨΩ they (or their flavouring suppliers) replace them with? If instead of asking for certain chemicals to be removed, we simply ask for their disclosure, then we end up at the same place. After all, why would we ask, if we weren't concerned about their presence?
 

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