Seriously, it costs that much?

[skenzer]

OK,
this seems to be a subject that is taboo amongst a lot of reviewers, retailers, etc but one that I just can't get past. Why do original mods and RDA's cost so much money? I know we all have opinions on this subject, god knows I do as well but i'm looking for a more educated, non-emotional discussion on this. Of course, there's the ethical side of this as well but ethics don't cost money, right? Ethics don't raise the cost of original mods and RDA's right? or do they?

What really gets me are the people that own both an original and cloned version of a mod or RDA and say they can't tell a difference between the two. They have to keep them separated so they don't get them mixed up. Some even go as far as marking the original so they can keep them separate. I've seen this twice with the Veritas RDA and a cloned Veritas RDA. The original costs somewhere around $120 and the clone costs around $15. Almost 1/10 the price!

I purchased a cloned 4nine mod for around $23.00. It was labeled as a 1:1 clone which I understand as meaning it should be the same size, weight and materials. Or at least pretty damn close to the original. The original 4nine mod is currently selling for around $160.00 new. I'm only using this mod as an example, i'm not trying to single it out as a "bad guy". The difference in cost being $137.00. Is this $137.00 of cost difference that has me perplexed. How can this be explained?

1) Development, design and testing must cost something
2) Initial cost of production and inventory must cost something
3) Materials and manufacturing must cost something
4) A percentage of the profits must be split between the manufacturer (developer) and the retailer

There's probably more, a lot more, that I haven't listed but I'm not a business major so you'll have to forgive me.

Let's take this same set of "costs" and compare them to a cloned version of said mod.

1) Design, Development and testing are basically already done by the original designer.
2) There is still a cost associated with manufacturing and having inventory
3) There is still a cost of materials involved in making clones
4) There still has to be profit shared between the manufacturer and retailer

Honestly, I am not sure where I'm going with this. I buy clones, almost always. I only own 2 original RDA's and one of them isn't really all THAT original. (the CLT from Infinite) which is a hybrid of the Tobh and Helios.
I also own a Vulcan which is an original. It kind of felt good to buy originals and support the companies that made them. It also felt good that I didn't take a solid ramming in the process as well.

Now, I know what some of you are thinking. If you can't afford them, then too bad! You can't buy them. I get that. However, I don't feel ethically bad about buying a cloned RDA or Mod because I believe the originals are way overpriced.

So, I've kind of come full circle. It's an emotional decision for me. Not educated at all..just purely emotional. I feel like mod's and RDA's are ridiculously overpriced and therefore I feel justified in buying clones.

I guess I have no right in knowing why such huge differences in price. It's not like I'm somebody special that deserves to know. But, I am somebody who could, quite possibly, be persuaded to only buy originals if it made more sense to do so.

 

[GargoyleK1]

I am an auto tech by trade… I see a lot of "cloning" going on it the automotive market. When I first started it was the Asian manufacturers cloning the Americans ideas. Now I see the trend has gone to the Americans cloning the Asians ideas. It gets done all the time by every manufacturer in every market. It "used" to be called competition, and "fair market place" practices depending on who wrote the article you read about it.

I say buy the best you can afford and do your research. If the best you can get is a provari (Mercedes) or a low dollar well made clone (Hyundai) then so be it. I personally see zero issue with it either way.

 

[skenzer]

I am an auto tech by trade… I see a lot of "cloning" going on it the automotive market. When I first started it was the Asian manufacturers cloning the Americans ideas. Now I see the trend has gone to the Americans cloning the Asians ideas. It gets done all the time by every manufacturer in every market. It "used" to be called competition, and "fair market place" practices depending on who wrote the article you read about it.

I say buy the best you can afford and do your research. If the best you can get is a provari (Mercedes) or a low dollar well made clone (Hyundai) then so be it. I personally see zero issue with it either way.

Yeah, i used to work for a large shoe manufacturer and it was the same story there. One of the designers once told me "we steal their stuff and they steal our stuff".
It would still be nice to know how a tube with a top cap and button can cost $180 +.

 

[jack]

I do not drive a Ford Model T , I see lots of cell phones on the market . Kleenex does not call brand x a clone . With all due respect to the reviewers they get the product from the manufacturer or its distributor . So perhaps they are someones slave (again with respect ) . If you can make something almost as good for 1/3 the price and folks buy it , so be it . That's the free market , that's competition and its great for the consumer . There are forums , and good ones, where you can not bring up a clone or copy or whatever . For the most part its a polished piece of pipe , period . You can bring up silver plated contacts and so on but if the consumer says its not that important then thats the way it is . What a bunch of cry babies . I am sure Henry Ford was not happy with General Motors . I own one clone only , if someone else owns 10, more power to them . Free market brings out the best, to bad if you want to price to the market .

 

[bluraff3]

I can't afford the real things and therefore have never tried them. I would love to support the original designers, but I also have a mortgage to pay. Ideally, I would like to see more cloners not using logos and/or adding their own flair to the devices. We know we're not buying the real thing, so why not make it somewhat original?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

IMO, and just IMO (I don't make mods, or sell them), the biggest costs come to those new to the market with small budgets. If someone has a rough idea of what they want to make, they take it to a machine shop so that it can be turned in to a CAD design; something the machinist can use to physically push the mod out. That costs just as hiring a web designer for a website costs. Some are cheap, though some well known web designers won't even talk to you if you don't have a $5-$50,000 budget. Others charge even more, especially if they have to get your approval multiple times through the process of building.

The metal tubes are probably the least expensive part of any mod as any machine shop should already have ties into companies selling what's needed to create the mod itself. Having the machinery to push it out is the most expensive, and that's why a mod maker takes it to someone else instead of going at it solo.

So creating the design and meeting an MOQ for the shop is most likely the bulk of the cost until you get down to machining smaller parts and pieces, coatings, laser engraving/etching etc. Beyond that, unless you have an agreement in place (and you should), you'll end up with some that are blemished. Some companies take those and sell them, others absorb them into what they charge you.

If it's produced in the US, it's naturally going to cost more as we pay employees more than those in China pay theirs. Even if it only takes 10 minutes to push out a tube, that doesn't matter. You'll be charged for labor and whatever else is included in the cost of having to machine the parts you need.

Smaller shops normally have higher costs, larger shops have lower costs by way of requiring generally higher MOQ's, so you have to find and strike a balance.


Chinese clones / mod makers have an advantage. They pay their workers less and they have access to a plethora of technology on the cheap and at their disposal. Access to pretty much anything they need + low wages = the ability to sell some things cheaper. Not to mention they have been in the cloning game for a LONG time. If it can be cloned and has some market value, they can and will clone it. That's not always a bad thing, but in some cases, quality suffers.

 

[jack]

IMO, and just IMO (I don't make mods, or sell them), the biggest costs come to those new to the market with small budgets. If someone has a rough idea of what they want to make, they take it to a machine shop so that it can be turned in to a CAD design; something the machinist can use to physically push the mod out. That costs just as hiring a web designer for a website costs. Some are cheap, though some well known web designers won't even talk to you if you don't have a $5-$50,000 budget. Others charge even more, especially if they have to get your approval multiple times through the process of building.

The metal tubes are probably the least expensive part of any mod as any machine shop should already have ties into companies selling what's needed to create the mod itself. Having the machinery to push it out is the most expensive, and that's why a mod maker takes it to someone else instead of going at it solo.

So creating the design and meeting an MOQ for the shop is most likely the bulk of the cost until you get down to machining smaller parts and pieces, coatings, laser engraving/etching etc. Beyond that, unless you have an agreement in place (and you should), you'll end up with some that are blemished. Some companies take those and sell them, others absorb them into what they charge you.

If it's produced in the US, it's naturally going to cost more as we pay employees more than those in China pay theirs. Even if it only takes 10 minutes to push out a tube, that doesn't matter. You'll be charged for labor and whatever else is included in the cost of having to machine the parts you need.

Smaller shops normally have higher costs, larger shops have lower costs by way of requiring generally higher MOQ's, so you have to find and strike a balance.


Chinese clones / mod makers have an advantage. They pay their workers less and they have access to a plethora of technology on the cheap and at their disposal. Access to pretty much anything they need + low wages = the ability to sell some things cheaper. Not to mention they have been in the cloning game for a LONG time. If it can be cloned and has some market value, they can and will clone it. That's not always a bad thing, but in some cases, quality suffers.

Sorry dude I have metal workers and machinists in my family, to polish pipe cost 2.00$ usd , granted buy the other parts ,ok 10$usd . That does not equal 185$ unless you are very bad at math . Or you price to the market and not cost , which is what they do . Some people will buy at 180$ before they buy at 50$ . By the way to polish takes 2 min. on a machine even if your stupid . No disrespect meant .

 

[Giraut]

[...]If it's produced in the US, it's naturally going to cost more as we pay employees more than those in China pay theirs. Even if it only takes 10 minutes to push out a tube, that doesn't matter. You'll be charged for labor and whatever else is included in the cost of having to machine the parts you need.[...]

This.

I have a machining setup and I can tell you just setting up the machine can take an hour for certain parts. That's one hour of my time you're gonna pay at western world rates. And then there's the programming (if you want something made in batches), machining proper, cleaning up etc. That takes time too. And I'm not even counting ancillary costs and materials, and my profit.

Quite frankly, considering what I have to charge to make simple, single parts in small batches without even being greedy, I doubt any RDA sold under $100 is made in the US. Designed and assembled perhaps, but definitely made somewhere cheaper, and then sold at "made in the US" markup.

[...]It would still be nice to know how a tube with a top cap and button can cost $180 +.

It's the power of the free market: if someone is willing to buy it at that price, somone will sell it. And with enough marketing, someone will end up wanting to buy

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Sorry dude I have metal workers and machinists in my family, to polish pipe cost 2.00$ usd , granted buy the other parts ,ok 10$usd . That does not equal 185$ unless you are very bad at math . Or you price to the market and not cost , which is what they do . Some people will buy at 180$ before they buy at 50$ . By the way to polish takes 2 min. on a machine even if your stupid . No disrespect meant .

None taken .

I'm more so getting at that the cost varies. I don't think it varies so much that a simple mechanical mod warrants a $200 price tag, though I do think that there's more than $12 going into a mod. No disrespect to you either. If it were simply that cheap, I think we'd see fewer e-liquid vendors popping up and more mod makers.

That said, if you know of someone that can take a basic idea for a mod and pop it out at a cost of $12 per unit without a huge MOQ and with excellent machining, I'm all ears and would be open to speaking with them. I have spoken with local shops and the pricing I was quoted for a small simple run of 5-10 units greatly exceeded that. I more so inquired just to see what the cost would be.

 

[Paddrino]

I don't have a problem with them taking similar ideas and selling them. Some clones actually improve on the design as well as fix issues the original design overlooked. The inky issue I have with clones is taking the logos / branding and putting them in the clone. I'm in teh 'vape what you can afford' camp. I don't buy designer sunglasses, but I do have a pair that look like some designer originals minus the branding. These really expensive mods are there for collectors and for people to show off. The vast majority of tube mods are so 'look alike' with the same components that I just can't justify the price myself personally. Now if you have some hand worked wooden mod that looks amazing with a unique look (like the slug for example), I can see myself buying.

 

[skenzer]

A lot of good thoughts here, thanks everyone.

Paddrino > you hit the nail on the head on one thing for sure. Taking somebody else's logo isn't cool. I don't know about you guys/gals but I don't give a damn what logo is on my clones. I buy them for the design, functionality and price point. I'm not trying to fool anybody into thinking I have a real Magma...I just like the way it vapes.

And you're right...there are clones out there, both mod's and RDA's that are better then the authentic one's. I think that's pretty awesome when the clone manufacturers take the time to listen to us vapors and give us what we want.

The manufactures work hard at building a brand and it sucks when somebody else tries to take advantage of that brand name

 

[vapopat]

I can say that a bought an original ud igow-3 from 101 cape around 30$ I like it so when I saw fast tech had them clone I bought 3 more when I've cleaned them all4 in vodka and water the 3 clone had rust where the original was still perfect shape I still buy clone but with a different mind set
Another thing I want to say is that we all heard about how heiz sell they're ketchup to wallmart or other big food seller and they put they're label on the bottle so I think the same is happening in vaping those 1-1 clone might well be from the original plan...

 

[KKen]

Everyone has their own preferences. I like both clone and authentic vape goods, but my choice is primarily influenced by availability.

No way I am willing to go on a waiting list so I can go on another waiting list. I just want to walk into a B&M, see the item and buy it right there, or look online and see "in stock" under the description.

Is there a difference between the clones and authentic? Some yes, some no. I have an authentic 4 Nine and a clone, but don't need to mark anything to tell them apart. I can easily tell them apart by just feeling the tubes and/or pressing the switch. Does that mean the authentic is worth the extra $120? To some, yes, to others, no.

As for USA modders, I think the correct trend would be to do what Americans are best at, and that is innovate. Create the design and specs, but then outsource the production. That way the inventory is ample, pricing is favorable, and as a result, a clone may not be worth getting if you are only going to save 20-40USD.

 

[Celtic Fog]

there is a copper mod that is selling for 130 us dollars, i added up the cost of the part it took to build it...not threaded, just slapped together with highly available parts, around 20 US dollars per unit....as far as mech mods, I would never spend over 60 dollars for one, EVER.... Box mods, I could see spending no more than 100 dollars due to the electronics...but some people are enjoying the ability to make as much money as they can...for as long as they can. In the mech mod world, not much left to the imagination, they all look the same these days and do the same thing.

 

[Thunderball]

This thread is an old discussion that comes up about every month or so over at " The forum that wont be named" and it gets so fucking old over there.

The big difference I see is that here there are no arguments and no fights .....no lines have been drawn. Both sides of thr coin are presented pretty well. The intelligence level here at Vaping Underground members just seems to be on a bit higher plane as well as the attitudes.

This is the first time Ive enjoyed an Original Vs Clone thread in a long time.

Didn't mean to hijack.... Just wanted to throw my thoughts in. Im glad Ive made a home here with you folks.

 

[Kutty_McKraken]

In many debates of this nature, Publilius Syrus Roman Writer of 100-BC is quoted often when people say "Everything is worth what it's purchaser will pay for it"... He also said "In a heated argument we are apt to lose sight of the truth." So before you go nuts because the statement is vague let me just say.. It's a blanket statement no doubt. But it has true and false double standards that none-the-less produce a sound educational statement in basic economics.

As far as mech mods go. In my opinion it's a bit ignorant to assume that either all clones or all authentic mods are worth, or not worth the asking price. Though most of them are not worth the price in my opinion, not all can be generalized as such. I have multiple mods. None are clones, but few are mechanical. As I watch the mod circus unfold I see that most mods, mechanical at least are not worth what you pay versus what you receive. You pay over $200 dollars and you get a steel tube with a switch and a spring that holds a battery. No high tech display, no variable voltage and wattage, no on board diagnostics like a battery and ohm checker, nothing.. Just a chunk of steel that holds a battery. So even though all of my mods are authentic, most aren't mech mods for that exact reason.

However there are exceptions and benefits to having a mech mod as we all know. Durability being one.. Simplicity being another.. So I had to purchase one for those reasons. The V3 Flip for example to me was not your average tube. The machined engravings on it alone put it on another level for me. Some say it's busy, I say it's just busy being beautiful.. The switch is just awesome from the throw to the ball bearing lock.. The ability to switch batteries so fast by just flipping the end caps around, all this in my minds eye was real evolution in mod design.. So with that in consideration I paid homage and dropped my $250 on the authentic, not the clone, in appreciation of the design. It's also said to be made in America so it was all the more reason to support. On the official website the Kick2 brought the mod up to $300 but I paid with no hesitation or regrets before or after. Shit I even went and bought the authentic Kayfun Lite Plus and bumped the mod to $400.. Because slappin a clone tank on a $250 dollar mod to me is like watching a chick in PayLess pumps with a Gucci handbag.. Plus I was given my first Kayfun clone in a mod purchase. It worked well. So to pay homage to the original I bought the authentic. But would I pay homage to a company like AmeriVape and purchase their "Competition" Limited Gold Edition Manhattan jerk off mod for $500.00 dollars when the original authentic got out performed in function & safety by a $60.00 dollar clone? No... But I'm sure somebody did lol...

Since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and most of the beholder's are average and below average in common sense. Easily impressed bandwagon man boys who want the newest overpriced bullshit toy for 5 minutes of internet, personal, and youtube glory, actually buy cheap tube mods at ridiculously high prices. Thus creating a fucked market. So If a mech tube mod just came out that cost $5,000 dollars and some rich fucktard bought it... It's now worth $5,000 dollars.. To him and every other pretentious moron in the world with cash to burn on bullshit. Most functional Americans are spoiled. Our wealth is unbalanced so we're often systematically ruined by our aspirations of it.. They got cell phone cases with real diamonds that cost $50,000 dollars too, but would I buy one even if I had millions? No... I'd rather help somebody pay for school. Or get other important shit done, but that's just me, not the majority..

But lets not forget, there are perfectly sane people out there who are very responsible in most aspects of their life, but just fell in love with collecting authentic and or clone mods as a hobby. So another lesson here I guess is, original or clone, your intentions and what motivated you to buy what you bought may be more important than what you actually bought. Clone or authentic, your research and common sense is the key to justifying your purchase. If I bought an authentic I'd have my reasons, and if I bought a clone I'd have my reasons. But being cheap OR wasteful with money, internet fame, or ignorance would not be one of them...

 

[Giraut]

They got cell phone cases with real diamonds that cost $50,000 dollars too, but would I buy one even if I had millions? No... I'd rather help somebody pay for school.

The truly rich help nobody but themselves. What you just wrote shows you ain't one of them.

 

[Celtic Fog]

Well written Kutty, indubitably.

 

[tombaker]

If you can not afford the real originator parts, you buy the clone. If you want to keep the original, because usually they are just better, its a factor of cost, and what you want. If you are a collector, you want a set of originals. If you are just a user on a budget, the clone is an obvious choice.

I can buy a Rolex clone for about 150, on dozens of Replica sites, there are even various grades, that is near exact to the Rolex. But you can tell. The originals can have a ceramic bezel with laid in metal. The clone has a metal ring, with numbers. Then there is the weight, the way the bezel turns, dust under the glass. Glass verse Sapphire. Or I can buy a real Seiko at Costco, that is near the same, but but costs about 250-400. I look at a Siegeli 20W as sort of a clone of a Provari, much like a Seiko to a Rolex. A Seiko is a brand. I don't see Sieglei as a knockoff. I can buy a real Rolex for a cool 8000+

Depending on your area, a carton of Analogs cost between 50-100 bucks. 10 days. 20 days gets you a genuine APV item. Its up to you.

I tend to read review, and only get a few items, because I only own, what I am going to use. I may sell my Siegeli and get a Provari, just because I use it every day, all day. So its a decent investment. And I have resale value on the Provari when the time comes, all accounts are they just don't break.

On RBAs, the clone/counterfits are close enough to not know, without the original box. But even then the threads are different. I have seen Clone review of 3 different clones, that all perform differently, and all not quite as nice as the original. So their is variablity of clone X, and Clone A.

Buy what you can afford, and buy what you want to keep.

 

[Celtic Fog]

@tombaker....you start off by saying, if you can not afford the originator parts, you buy the clone....not necessarily true. Some people choose to NOT spend extra money when they don't need to. Some people buy the name branded and numbered clones, even when they "rent" their house or still have a mortgage....I paid cash for my home, and was able to do so, by never falling victim of over priced markets when it came to the goods I buy. So, if you don't own your home, outright, its never a "decent" investment to spend more than you need to on your toys.....

 

[Giraut]

There are two issues with Chinese devices:

1/ Is it well designed (or well copied)?
2/ How many duds pass quality control?

Re 1/, I have a few shite Chinese original designs and copies too. But that's my fault: I didn't read the reviews before buying. The bad stuff is usually outed pretty quickly in this age of instant communcation. So normally, if you do your homework, no problem there.

Re 2/, assuming the design is okay, I reckon there's 1 chance in 5 to receive a faulty device from China. However, China-made devices are usually an order of magnitude cheaper than US-made stuff. Anybody who's ever played poker knows that, with odds like that, you play the hand - i.e. you take your chances and buy Chinese.

Buying genuine stuff is for those who are okay to pay extra to:

- support the local economy,
- get the latest and greatest that hasn't been copied yet,
- have the assurance they'll get a properly working device, with quality support and customer service.

Anybody else is financially better off buying Chinese. That's not even my opinion, it's just math.

 

[Celtic Fog]

Buying American made mods does not support local economy, it supports the Artisan that makes them. Supporting local economy mean buying from a company that hires people within their community, so that the salaries are put back into that local economy. To be worthy of the the title, economy supporting company, you would need to have at least 10 employees. Artisan sales are just that, art. I love art, and love artisan work....but it is not worth paying 10x the amount for their products because they have an inflated ego. American made products statistically have a much higher "lemon" rate than Chinese products in the same category....to say they have a 1 in 5 chance at being a non working item, is repulsively wrong.

 

[Giraut]

To be fair, there are more than a few lemons coming out of China too, be it vaping hardware or anything else

 

[Celtic Fog]

very true, lemons are a world wide fruit of labor lol.

 

[vapopat]

I'd like to had here that all the cigarette I've bought and they're package went to trash after use so paying for hardware that'll stay clone or not is not that expensive starting from the point of view that you can always resell after boredom come I still prefer money in my budget then 200/300$ battery holder but 60$ for a dreadnaut or flip clone no prob at all

 

[tombaker]

@tombaker....you start off by saying, if you can not afford the originator parts, you buy the clone....not necessarily true. Some people choose to NOT spend extra money when they don't need to. Some people buy the name branded and numbered clones, even when they "rent" their house or still have a mortgage....I paid cash for my home, and was able to do so, by never falling victim of over priced markets when it came to the goods I buy. So, if you don't own your home, outright, its never a "decent" investment to spend more than you need to on your toys.....

I think you essentially echoed what I said. Between a clone and an original, if you budget does not allow the original, buy the clone, without worrying. If you pick the right clone, it will likely be very close. But I also was trying to say, that with the cost savings from analogs, its easy to justify paying up for the originals, if you are going to be using it daily. Its not simply a hobby for many, its a means to stop smoking.

I use my APV all day long, every day. Its not like I won't get good value out of it. If I was one of those people that get peer pressure to keep smoking analogs, having the original device, a solid workhorse, pride in ownership....it can be helpful.

The thing about clones, if people often have to collect a ton of them, to get the right one. So 5 missfires of clone purchases, equal one serious original. Penny wise, dollar foolish. Plus a real RBA can be resold for half its value, fairly easily. While clones, are use them, give them away, or back of the drawer. Why would I buy a used clone, I know the odds of it are: a bad clone.

Again, I tend to buy only what will be a daily driver, and don't have a garage of cars I never drive, and I don't buy my house for cash money either, so there is that difference also.

 

[Kutty_McKraken]

Well written Kutty, indubitably.

Thank you sir...

 

[tombaker]

Buying American made mods does not support local economy, it supports the Artisan that makes them...snip....but it is not worth paying 10x the amount for their products because they have an inflated ego. American made products statistically have a much higher "lemon" rate than Chinese products in the same category....to say they have a 1 in 5 chance at being a non working item, is repulsively wrong.

Repulsively wrong LOL, surely you jest. American products in the same category having a much higher lemon rate. BS Pulled out of thin air.
We are talking MODs. Name one US MOD company where the lemon rates are high. Its easy to pick off clones, that suck. Its easy to pick off similar spec chinese electronics that suck.

A US vendor that does a limited size production run, as others have said here, has to go to a tool and metal shop and do a tiny run, the set up and tear down costs remain the same, as a large run. It costs more. They need to pay themselves, Americans cost more to employ. Sure you are supporting the bars and pizza shops the "artisans" eat at. One auto worker, is not just that job, its all the jobs that are around it.

Speaking of Cars and USA workers, we have some of the best workers in the world quality wise. 1990s GM cars sucked because they were designed by commitees. GM Aztec is the shinning example of poor design. But the US workers in Ohio making Honda for decades, Consumer Reports will tell you just how high the quality is.

I would say over 1 in 5 clones are marginal replacements. I would say at least 1 in 5, by the reviewers, just leak when they are not supposed to.

If you need to buy a clone on price, do it, but see the youtube reviews of 3 different Kayfuns Clones at the same time. Twisted420. But saying you should buy a clone, just because its a clone, and price is cheaper, and that USA MOD designers and makers, have a higher lemon rate than Chinese stuff, is....well...just dumb. In your same industry claims of Chinese quality over USA, in MOD land, there is only one term used. Chinese Junk, or Junk out of China. Any denying of that, is laughable.

 

[Celtic Fog]

"Repulsively wrong LOL, surely you jest. American products in the same category having a much higher lemon rate. BS Pulled out of thin air.
We are talking MODs. Name one US MOD company where the lemon rates are high. Its easy to pick off clones, that suck. Its easy to pick off similar spec chinese electronics that suck." @tombaker

I am anti union, and I stand by every word i said. Americans are undereducated, lazy and greedy....especially when it comes to business and economy. You should learn the difference in supporting an artist and supporting a company that puts into the local economies. I have no interest in helping one man pay for his shiny new car and a few extra beers.

"We have some of the best workers in the world, quality wise"....give me a fucking break. You can kid yourself all day long with that one bud, Ill never bite on that one, Ohio making Japanese cars with Japanese parts and using Japanese work practices....The Honda plant does so well, because they refused the UNION and their "were the best" attitude.

You can call it "junk" if you want, Ill never buy the original piece of "CRAP", when "junk" is so much more reasonably priced. You can polish up that "crap" all you want, its still "crap"

You can LOL and call my ideas Laughable all you want, I understand the worlds economy, and your still a renter who has a car loan and believes that shiny is better. Good luck with that.

 

[tombaker]

Americans are undereducated, lazy and greedy....especially when it comes to business and economy.............I have no interest in helping one man pay for his shiny new car and a few extra beers.

Said like a real turd, who stiffs every waitress, without leaving her tip.

 

[Celtic Fog]

Said like a real turd, who stiffs every waitress, without leaving her tip.

I tip well when I go out, which is not often. I cook my meals at home using fresh produce and local meats from local farms, I don't waste money at restaurants when my family deserves the best. Now enjoy eating shit.

 

[tombaker]

I tip well when I go out, which is not often. I cook my meals at home using fresh produce and local meats from local farms, I don't waste money at restaurants when my family deserves the best. Now enjoy eating shit. Americans are undereducated, lazy and greedy....especially when it comes to business and economy.............I have no interest in helping one man pay for his shiny new car and a few extra beers.

who asked you?

 

[Giraut]

As an artisan - I make luxury hunting rifles as an second job - I can tell you that:

1/ I help local individuals and companies make a living. I pay the engraver, the stock blanks distributor, the surface treatment shop, the custom leather worker, the range, the proofhouse... All these people live with what I and other folks like me make, and they in turn help others make a living.

2/ I don't make crap. Sorry, I don't. I may make unique guns with parts that aren't interchangeable, yes. But my guns' parts' fit is good, the finish is good, the barrels are true, the case is impeccable. I can spend up to 500 hours on a gun, so my personal pride goes into each one I make. My customers must know it, because they wait up to 2 years and pay dozens of kilobucks for what I make, and my order book is full.

3/ The Chinese are not out to shaft you. They too want to make an honest living, for the most part. But when westerners pressure them to produce complex finished products for pennies, they cut corners. "Made in the US" simply means that the US artisan tells you to get stuffed if you ask them the same prices. I believe Chinese manufactures don't really have the luxury of telling their western customers to get stuffed, and since they keep coming back for more cheap stuff anyway...

4/ You tip the waitress when you reckon you've received service that went beyond what was expected of her. If you have you do, if you haven't, you don't. There's nothing emotional about it. By the way, the waitress works to makes ends meet on a very low fixed salary. She may work two jobs to keep her head above the water, and may have been really tired when she served you and didn't smile. Remember that too when you write that figure on the dotted line.

5/ Unions suck when they're too powerful and they abuse their power. But if you've ever had to get help from a union, to help you right the wrong that's been done to you, you can't be anti-union. Trust me on that one: the day the boss-man screws you and there ain't nobody to help you out, and the feeling of injustice is unbearable, you'll wish your company had a union worthy of the name.

 

[Celtic Fog]

Very well written piece @Giraut .