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Small diameter and hard wicked. Based on Morten Oen's work
- Thread starter Zhurrie
- Start date
And the best most efficient Tank I have found both in performance and battery efficiency is the Subtank Mini V2 with RBA running at 16 watts.
3mm 26ga SS .4 coil. Great flavor, No dry hits or leaks, Good battery life and decent vapor production.
Does not mean that everyone likes it though.
But works for me.
I also prefer cooler vapes. Just a bit warm but in no way hot.
Cotton? Decided against pads years ago. Been using aligned cotton for years now.
First Salon Coil Cotton and now Cotton Bacon V2.
My only real priority in vaping is figuring out what works best for me.
I may tell others what that is but do not expect them to follow my advice which is after all just a personal opinion based on what I like.
I do recall in one of Oen's videos that he only vapes rdas so that is something to consider in his experiments. It's much easier to keep a tight wicking saturated when dripping on the coils. I do wick tighter on my goon than I do on my rtas but I can dump juice through tip to keep the coils saturated.
I am curious how this wicking would work on squonkers. I would think a tight wicking would be just fine.
I am curious how this wicking would work on squonkers. I would think a tight wicking would be just fine.
Zhurrie
Member For 1 Year
I only use squonkers, so all of my testing has been on them.
I will also say that he addressed chain vaping, and that isn't really his (or my) focus in testing either so it may or may not work for that. @The Cromwell absolutely! It isn't so much about telling anyone what to do but bringing some real science into it all. I'd love to see similar testing for all kinds of aspects of vaping, I'm sure a lot of things would fail the scrutiny and testing that are generally believed to be true. I was mostly just surprised at how closely my own testing came to his results and wanted to see if others have tried or knew about it. I don't have any real life friends or acquaintances that vape so I'm more interested in the discussion and chat about various tests/outcomes since otherwise I am just talking to myself. Although, I rarely get disagreement that way!
2x the battery life compared to what other coil?
Scientific testing would include a tension measurement of how tight the cotton is in the coil.
Of course the tension would vary for exactly the same amount of cotton in same sized coils of different construction.
ie claptons, twisted, etc.
Of course the tension would vary for exactly the same amount of cotton in same sized coils of different construction.
ie claptons, twisted, etc.
2 x the battery life = 1/2 the wattage.
Or thereabouts.
imho those who believe that bigger/mo power is better are often just following the marketing types and shills.
Of course if all you are after is bigger clouds and bragging rights?
But if you want more flavor and a more efficient vape, then mo power is not the way to go.
But neither is tiny diameter coils and packed tight wicking the only way to go.
Many many variables in vaping, which makes it nearly impossible to say this will always work.
Again just my opinion.
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That is certainly a big brush you are painting a swath with; vaping is not so partisan/polarized, it's a spectrum, or gradient if you will
I am not sure I can even offer a respectful response to that, otherwise, as I must assume you are not referring to me as following marketing and shills while wanting some weird cloud blowing bragging rights
When I say clouds bro clouds, I am always being facetious
This thread is about a smaller ID coil with tight wicking; I am asking @Zhurrie what coils he used to use before the small ID and packing cotton tightly, because I am wondering if they had the same mass as his new ones, i.e. my question of twice the battery life compared to (what specific kind of coil, same resistance?)
K, you are correct. No more painting in this thread.
My bad. Sorry and apologies.
My bad. Sorry and apologies.
This is maybe off-topic, but I was glad to finally see some of his airflow imaging; I was very relieved to hear him say "round wire or claptons with very fine wire, 42 gauge, 44 gauge" etc acted the same in terms of not making a "wall" that stops air from surrounding the coil
Since I bought about 44,000 feet of 46 gauge (supposedly, I haven't measured it...) was a deal and sold by weight
Since I bought about 44,000 feet of 46 gauge (supposedly, I haven't measured it...
) was a deal and sold by weight
Zhurrie
Member For 1 Year
I can't speak for him but if you read what @The Cromwell said at the bottom, I think it is pretty reasonable. There is no "one right way" silver bullet for everyone in all cases, but there are some truths.
I was using 3.0 ID coils of all sorts prior to this testing. Alien, tiger, chain link, all kinds of coils from various builders and packs. Many of them were larger diameter common popular types. Then I started testing 24 and 26g SS and Kanthal A1 round wire micro coils and saw effectively 2x battery life. Some spaced some not, that didn't have any appreciable effect on battery.
I am not much of a fan of spaced-coils. Some just don't want to compress, so I smile, nod, and tell myself "I really did want that shit spaced." (I'm the only one that knows I wanted an airlock handy ;-)
But, yeah.. I've even been falling back to 30 & 28awg kanth and ss316L periodically. I've not had the memorable 'pop' of days gone by, either.
But, yeah.. I've even been falling back to 30 & 28awg kanth and ss316L periodically. I've not had the memorable 'pop' of days gone by, either.
Wouldn't the battery life also be the same though if you were to use larger ID coils with fewer wraps, and tight wick, with the 24 and 26 gauge round wire coils, as long as the resistance and coil mass were the same as a smaller ID coil with more wraps?
I am just lost, I thought this thread was about small diameter coils and tight wick improving performance/efficiency, not round wire vs "exotic" coils
Zhurrie
Member For 1 Year
The main point is that with a smaller ID there is overall less cotton/juice/mass inside the coil however all of that juice is closer to the coils effectively which allows it to vaporize more fully and efficiently with a given current. Oen's experiments also show that plain round or flat wire tend to be more efficient in this scenario. Anything that adds additional points of potential loss are going to be less efficient, so more exotic coils by nature are going to often be less efficient than plain wire. That isn't an absolute though, I can think of some possible exceptions.
There are limits though to all of these things and it is also true that you can go too far in any one of many directions and while it may be more efficient and result in even more battery life it would result in decreased enjoyment or other issues. I did my personal testing with dual vs. single coil in a Pulse 24, single coils of 3.0mm 2.5mm and 2.0mm ID, and then those same coils wicked my normal way (which used to be removing the top/bottom layer of cotton, and fluffing the ends, medium tight wicked in the coil), then super tightly wicked. In my initial tests I used 3.0mm ID coils of various types, then I moved to wrapping just plain round wire (SS and Kanthal A1) in 3, 2.5, 2 for everything else (battery life and wicking).
Morten's conclusions in the dual vs. single coil testing were:
- Dual coils use twice the energy, all things being equal.
- The diameter of the coil is the most important factor for energy consumption, because 80% (roughly) of the total mass of the coil is due to the saturated cotton.
- With chain vaping, mAh is the most important factor for energy consumption.
- Above 3,5 mm i.d. the type of wire has no influence on energy consumption.
- The coil with the least inner volume (i.e. small, old school, plain wire coils) are the most energy efficient coils.
I am definitely not saying this is the be-all-end-all definitive way everyone should go, just that my tests did prove his theories and testing independently and they do definitely result in up to 2x the battery life over what I used to get and with no appreciable difference in flavor for me. Battery life and flavor alone aren't everyone's main goals though, but it is interesting even if it doesn't fit everyone's goals.
Well if the vape experience is not to one's liking, then it's only logical the fact that someone else's theories will be useless. Some people actually even like getting a little bit of spitback as long as it doesn't burn their mouth. Strong airflow used in conjunction with a certain amount of restrictiveness can cause the kind of turbulence that cools down the spitback to the point where it can become pleasant, for example, and, the angle/orientation of the airflow versus the position of the coil also plays a part. Some people prefer to use as little cotton as possible because they are convinced that the crackling sound of aliens is compulsory to get decent flavor. Yes, tighter wicking can help to tame the violent spitback of some angry coil builds, but I already found that out via trial and error almost a full year ago, long before Morten Oen started to make his videos, and, yes, I already did talk about that observation right here on the forum, also almost a full year ago. Further, a longer, smaller inner diameter coil is not necessarily always a better choice. After you burned your wicks in half, that's when you'll start to understand why.
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@Carambrda
Yeah, I got sick of that with contact coils myself. Once I discovered spaced coils, that became all I will build with now. Some are even spaced 3mm betw wraps, and I find this creates more flavor and denser clouds, even at higher resistance builds like 1.1 Ohm and lower watts like 22w, which also improves battery life.
On something like the Wasp Nano, you have ~14mm width side-sto-side for the legs of your coils to go straight into the screw holes, and as such getting 7-8 spaced wraps, 3mm apart, of 26g kanthal works very well.
Then of course, you WICK HARD!
Lots of vaping joy can be had by all.
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Ha ha I've burned my wicks in half on 2.5 before. That's not to say it wasn't operator error but at the time I was only vaping between 30-40w which isn't much. But I do tend to take longer inhales so that's likely contributed to burning the wicks in half along with the coils being contact. Since then I've found spaced coils on .3-3.5mm bit to be my sweet spot. But that's just me.
Yeah, I got sick of that with contact coils myself. Once I discovered spaced coils, that became all I will build with now. Some are even spaced 3mm betw wraps, and I find this creates more flavor and denser clouds, even at higher resistance builds like 1.1 Ohm and lower watts like 22w, which also improves battery life.
On something like the Wasp Nano, you have ~14mm width side-sto-side for the legs of your coils to go straight into the screw holes, and as such getting 7-8 spaced wraps, 3mm apart, of 26g kanthal works very well.
Then of course, you WICK HARD!
Lots of vaping joy can be had by all.
Here's the problem I've had with spaced coils. When I put the cotton in, it pulls the coils together. I try to push them apart, but never seem to get the distance as it was before inserting the cotton. How do you do it?
@St.RoostiferHa ha I've burned my wicks in half on 2.5 before. That's not to say it wasn't operator error but at the time I was only vaping between 30-40w which isn't much. But I do tend to take longer inhales so that's likely contributed to burning the wicks in half along with the coils being contact. Since then I've found spaced coils on .3-3.5mm bit to be my sweet spot. But that's just me.
Yes, most of the time I've build 3.0mm dia coils, and then spaced the WRAPS either 2mm or 3mm apart.
I tried the 2.0mm dia coils, similarly spaced yesterday in both 24g and 26g Kanthal and SS316L, and the 26g always gets deformed from wicking hard, as in 12mm wide strip of cotton.
I find that wetting the coil with juice prior to inserting the tip of the wick helps to ease it when next, literally threading the wick, and it squeaks as you twist it through.
Without wetting the wicks, the coil gets all mangled up and then needs to be straightened out afterwards.
I put a 1.11 Ohm, 2mm dia, 26g kanthal build in the Insider for the Billet Box and there was no flavor anywhere from 17w up to 45w and lots of dry hits past 19w, so went back to 2.5mm dia and it was great up to 28w, which was too hot for me. I then tried another 2.5mm build with 0.8mm x 0.1mm Kanthal ribbon wire to the same specs and it ramps instantly @ 17 watts and no dry hits (also in the Insider) and that seems to be the sweet spot for now.
Next I tried the 1.11 Ohm 2mm 26g Kanthal build in the Nudge 22, and it was hot but little flavor. I returned to my 5 spaced wraps of 24g SS316L on 3mm for the Nudge 22, and that was a nice moist and flavorful vape.
I know that there are lots of other variables here such as coil placement relative to air flow, but I have already locked in a good coil position to maximize flavor on eacy of my RDAs/RTAs, so for me that is minimized and not an issue.
Lots of how I figured out the coil position is informed by the videos of Morten Oen, who along with Mooch is one of my heroes.
Whatever works for you, it's all good, but the 2mm dia coils did not work well for me.
Maybe I have to start playing with Nichrome (N80) and see how that goes...with the 2mm coils dia, but I have to order more wire since I have no Nichrome right now, and mostly use SS316L and infrequently use Kanthal.
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If I have a few wraps ki d of tight together I pulse at a low wattage to heat them just a bit and after I let go of the power button I insert the bit back into the coil and use a razor blade to gently slide inbetween the tight wraps to spread them apart. This has worked wonders for me if I fuck up while wrapping and the coils finish the wrapping looking jenky. By the time I finish tweaking them with the razor blade they look just fine.
@bobnat
I've had the same problem.
Try THREADING the cotton into the wraps instead of just PULLING it through, as mentioned in my above posts.
You need to twist BOTH ends in the same rotation, but wet the coil first to lubricate it. Look at my previous post for details explanation here:
http://vapingunderground.com/thread...n-morten-oens-work.403256/page-2#post-2101715
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At first I used to do spaced coils by wrapping on a screw and fitting the wire inside the gaps betw the teeth of the screw threads.
Then later I learned that when wrapping a contact coil, and while still on the rod, PULL OUT the coil along the length of the rod to space it and then compress it and this works most of the time.
Now, when I wrap a coil on the rod, I can usually just wrap it spaced, and do so by keeping lots of tension on the length of wire as it goes around the rod, and this helps to keep the spacing 'as done', even when removed from the rod, and usually needs no further tweaking.
In 2 yrs, I've probably built over 1 thousand coils, and had more failures than successes, but this is definitely a skill that requires both patience and lots of practice to get right, on the first try, every time.
I find coil wrapping mentally therapeutic and helps me purge stress.
My you have done some experimenting.
I've used to vape SS but don't do well with it due to the nickel content and found the wraps to be less forgiving when using a tight wick. Now that I've switched to Kanthal I don't have too much of a problem since it's so stiff. The spaced wraps really helps with dissipating the heat and helps prevent the heat from accumulating in the chamber so quickly in my rtas. Yesterday I switched from 4mm back down to 3-3.5mm to help keep the heat from accumulating. Has worked wonders. I'm vaping Kanthal fused core Clapton's I made ( 2*28/40) on a 3.5 bit with 7 wraps at .82 about 30W lol. The flavor has been an amazing improvement which taught me bigger is not always better.
That's great info. I'll give it a try. Thanks.
@St.RoostiferMy you have done some experimenting.
I've used to vape SS but don't do well with it due to the nickel content and found the wraps to be less forgiving when using a tight wick. Now that I've switched to Kanthal I don't have too much of a problem since it's so stiff. The spaced wraps really helps with dissipating the heat and helps prevent the heat from accumulating in the chamber so quickly in my rtas. Yesterday I switched from 4mm back down to 3-3.5mm to help keep the heat from accumulating. Has worked wonders. I'm vaping Kanthal fused core Clapton's I made ( 2*28/40) on a 3.5 bit with 7 wraps at .82 about 30W lol. The flavor has been an amazing improvement which taught me bigger is not always better.
Yes, Once I realized that I could CUSTOMIZE my vape experience, and that each RBA/RTA requires a little different build to find my sweet spot, I go on a mission, and usually within about 5-6 puffs, I can tell if it is right for me.
Especially since I chain-vape most of the time, dry hits are a misery if/when they occur, so lots of my builds are geared towards maximizing both juice flow and air flow, and this is why Morten Oen's videos are like manna from Heaven, for me, like @Zhurrie, his videos both confirmed what I had arrived at in some of my experiments in building, as well as informed and educated me on how to further improve things. I am very motivated when I am trying to 'get it right' and I do not give up easily.
Also, when staring squonking (back in Oct 2017) with the Pulse BF (which is a mech mod), and really digging in to all of the content in both text and video put out by Mooch, I also started to pay even more attention to battery safety and Ohm's law, and then for the Pulse BF and other mech builds, would design the build for both safety and battery efficiency, as well as for flavor and heat out of the drip-tip...
and for the mech builds, I am really happy with a 3mm dia, 24g SS316L build of 5 spaced wraps, which comes out to 0.25 Ohms.
I also tried 22g kanthal, but even just 5-7 wraps of that is both too hot for me and cuts the battery life in half compared to the SS build I mentioned, on account of the greater wire mass and pulling more current from the battery cell.
I should also mention that for a long time now, I only use single-coil atomizers, save for the Goon V1 and Velocity V1, but ALL of them are run with single-coil builds. I am simply not interested in killing 50ml of juice per day, nor running alien or other fancy coils at 100w, as I like a much cooler vape, and dont care to waste that much juice, cotton and wire. Mostly use just simple round wire builds, or twisted wire once in a while, but
I have built all kinds of fancy wire, but found the vaping experience in the end, not worth the time I put in to build the wire.
However, lots of folks enjoy vaping that way, and that's fine, but not for me.
Sure, I know that you can by pre-made coils too, but I'm not interested to spend $10 for 5 coils when I can get 50 ft of wire on a spool for $5.
Don't know why the text didn't come through.
Maybe a glitch somewhere.
This is my most recent coil build... the build deck measures only 19.5mm in diameter so the length of these coils is only 8mm leg to leg. They're 2 strands of .3×.1 Kanthal A1 ribbon twisted together, clapton'd around that with 38g Nichrome80, and then twisted that together with another strand of .3×.1 Kanthal A1 ribbon, 2.5mm inner diameter dual coil ohms out at 1.33 ohms.
These coils are so springy and fragile, it is simply impossible to pull the cotton in as tight as Morten Oen suggests we should. Despite that, they vape wonderfully on my tube mech with four Sony VTC5A batteries in series (16.8 volts).
These coils are so springy and fragile, it is simply impossible to pull the cotton in as tight as Morten Oen suggests we should. Despite that, they vape wonderfully on my tube mech with four Sony VTC5A batteries in series (16.8 volts).
At first I used to do spaced coils by wrapping on a screw and fitting the wire inside the gaps betw the teeth of the screw threads.
Then later I learned that when wrapping a contact coil, and while still on the rod, PULL OUT the coil along the length of the rod to space it and then compress it and this works most of the time.
Now, when I wrap a coil on the rod, I can usually just wrap it spaced, and do so by keeping lots of tension on the length of wire as it goes around the rod, and this helps to keep the spacing 'as done', even when removed from the rod, and usually needs no further tweaking.
In 2 yrs, I've probably built over 1 thousand coils, and had more failures than successes, but this is definitely a skill that requires both patience and lots of practice to get right, on the first try, every time.
I find coil wrapping mentally therapeutic and helps me purge stress.
You and I have been on similar paths. I prefer single coils myself and mostly what I vape on aside from my goon and a dual coil rta I picked up last year for $12. I use the those dual coils for 3mg cloud fun and 6mg for the single coil rtas. As you said its all in the setup and for me that's part if the fun. I get awesome flavor from my single coil rtas when I have them set up right but it's taken a bit of time to learn the nuances of those rtas to optimize the experience.@St.Roostifer
Yes, Once I realized that I could CUSTOMIZE my vape experience, and that each RBA/RTA requires a little different build to find my sweet spot, I go on a mission, and usually within about 5-6 puffs, I can tell if it is right for me.
Especially since I chain-vape most of the time, dry hits are a misery if/when they occur, so lots of my builds are geared towards maximizing both juice flow and air flow, and this is why Morten Oen's videos are like manna from Heaven, for me, like @Zhurrie, his videos both confirmed what I had arrived at in some of my experiments in building, as well as informed and educated me on how to further improve things. I am very motivated when I am trying to 'get it right' and I do not give up easily.
Also, when staring squonking (back in Oct 2017) with the Pulse BF (which is a mech mod), and really digging in to all of the content in both text and video put out by Mooch, I also started to pay even more attention to battery safety and Ohm's law, and then for the Pulse BF and other mech builds, would design the build for both safety and battery efficiency, as well as for flavor and heat out of the drip-tip...
and for the mech builds, I am really happy with a 3mm dia, 24g SS316L build of 5 spaced wraps, which comes out to 0.25 Ohms.
I also tried 22g kanthal, but even just 5-7 wraps of that is both too hot for me and cuts the battery life in half compared to the SS build I mentioned, on account of the greater wire mass and pulling more current from the battery cell.
I should also mention that for a long time now, I only use single-coil atomizers, save for the Goon V1 and Velocity V1, but ALL of them are run with single-coil builds. I am simply not interested in killing 50ml of juice per day, nor running alien or other fancy coils at 100w, as I like a much cooler vape, and dont care to waste that much juice, cotton and wire. Mostly use just simple round wire builds, or twisted wire once in a while, but
I have built all kinds of fancy wire, but found the vaping experience in the end, not worth the time I put in to build the wire.
However, lots of folks enjoy vaping that way, and that's fine, but not for me.
Sure, I know that you can by pre-made coils too, but I'm not interested to spend $10 for 5 coils when I can get 50 ft of wire on a spool for $5.
While Oen's wicking methods don't really fit with the way I vape I do respect he is experimenting to optimize his vape experience based on his personal preferences and choice of attys. He's just sharing his findings and he ain't wrong for it.
His research into airflow interests me the most because I'm really big on matching the right coil size and placement in relation to the airflow. I think he's spot on in his airflow research and does an excellent job of explaining it in his videos.