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STAINLESS STEEL COILS FOR TEMP CONTROL?

f1r3b1rd

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I'm curious, I noticed that on steamengine there is a tcr for SS

http://www.steam-engine.org/tcr.asp

How well does it work for TC? how would I use it for tc? would it work in replacement of TI?
 

OBDave

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Intriguing - I've avoided TC to date due to suspicions about material - stainless might pique my interest...
 

f1r3b1rd

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Intriguing - I've avoided TC to date due to suspicions about material - stainless might pique my interest...
I haven't used it a whole lot lately because I don't like TI, and ni200 doesmt perform the way I like in an RDA. I do like it in a single coil tank. Which are rare these days,
 

f1r3b1rd

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I ordered some to fiddlefuck with and see how it goes, and I have some triton coils winch are SS steal, thentaste is stellar
 

hogheadv

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In Phil Busardo's latest video reviewing the pipeline pro 2 he talks about it being able to temperature control stainless steel. However the device allows the user to change the coefficient of the wire so the device can temp control it and stainless steel has a very different coefficient than either nickel or titanium, so I would imagine that most temperature control devices on the market now would not do very well with it. However, I do not own a temperature control mod so I could be wrong.
 

f1r3b1rd

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Roger that, the dna200-from what I have been told- allows you to change the tcr, so I have one on order and hoping that I was told correctly and can giver that a try.
I reckon i'll find out on a couple weeks.
 

Emberwilde

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graph.jpg

figure this might help everyone understand how very different these wires are
for example the resistance of the stainless at 420deg would be equal to the resistance of nickel at 140deg and titanium at 190deg.. without the ability to define the coefficient of resistance stainless is not a viable TC material
 

VapingN252

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so compared to all, nickel is still the best for tc? I'm waiting on my titanium to arrive next week. I recently decided to start cleaning off my wire before I use it and the taste of nickel has improved vastly. Gotta do the same for ti when I get it.
 

f1r3b1rd

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Ok, so I have the coefficient for SS from steam engine...
Gonna give it a shot next week 'hopefully. ". C'mon oompaloompa!!!!

graph.jpg

figure this might help everyone understand how very different these wires are
for example the resistance of the stainless at 420deg would be equal to the resistance of nickel at 140deg and titanium at 190deg.. without the ability to define the coefficient of resistance stainless is not a viable TC material
 
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Emberwilde

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so compared to all, nickel is still the best for tc? I'm waiting on my titanium to arrive next week. I recently decided to start cleaning off my wire before I use it and the taste of nickel has improved vastly. Gotta do the same for ti when I get it.
no, I am not saying any wire type is better then any other, what I am saying is that the software on your device needs to be programmable to have proper function with various wire types.. the graph illustrates just how differently the materials respond in terms of resistance to temperature relationship
 

Mattp169

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graph.jpg

figure this might help everyone understand how very different these wires are
for example the resistance of the stainless at 420deg would be equal to the resistance of nickel at 140deg and titanium at 190deg.. without the ability to define the coefficient of resistance stainless is not a viable TC material

If this graph is accurate, i am concerned with my device. I have a IPV d2 in NI200 mode with a .15 coil in it. i have it set to 480 F Now the D2 actually shows the resistance as it changes as you fire.
Mine is going up to .42 -.44 while I am firing. according to this graph 480F is reached at a resistance below .3

So I am very confused with this graph.

could someone elaborate
 

Emberwilde

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If this graph is accurate, i am concerned with my device. I have a IPV d2 in NI200 mode with a .15 coil in it. i have it set to 480 F Now the D2 actually shows the resistance as it changes as you fire.
Mine is going up to .42 -.44 while I am firing. according to this graph 480F is reached at a resistance below .3

So I am very confused with this graph.

could someone elaborate
first off the graph I used was based on a resistance of 0.12ohm and the data points stopped at 460deg
additionally if I run the same list based on a starting resistance of 0.05ohms the chart at 460deg says 0.115ohm
finally please keep in mind that TC is actually temperature limiting and is based on Math not actual temperature readings.. just like I was able to plot a graph the proper software can plot the expected temp based on the resistance value being read so when it reads a resistance associated with the preset temp limit it reduces power to the coil..
a multitude of things can factor into this process, does the atty have a static resistance, does that static resistance vary based on temp as well..if you look at my data points for the 0.05 range to go from room temp (about 70deg) to 460deg (a difference of 390deg) the resistance only varied by 0.065ohms, and this is on nickel the highest coefficient of resistance.. without melting everyone's brains with Math just consider what a static resistance of 0.005 can mean, especially if it alters to 0.007 at 460deg, to the software trying to guesstimate the temp of the coil

the purpose of that graph was to illustrate how much variance there is between material with respect to the coefficient of resistance at temperature.. the point I was and am still trying to make is that your mod needs to have the proper information in order to properly respond, if you mod does not have a setting for Ti then running Ti on that mod has risks, it simply does not react the same as nickel so the Math to regulate temp will be skewed
 

Mattp169

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first off the graph I used was based on a resistance of 0.12ohm and the data points stopped at 460deg
additionally if I run the same list based on a starting resistance of 0.05ohms the chart at 460deg says 0.115ohm
finally please keep in mind that TC is actually temperature limiting and is based on Math not actual temperature readings.. just like I was able to plot a graph the proper software can plot the expected temp based on the resistance value being read so when it reads a resistance associated with the preset temp limit it reduces power to the coil..
a multitude of things can factor into this process, does the atty have a static resistance, does that static resistance vary based on temp as well..if you look at my data points for the 0.05 range to go from room temp (about 70deg) to 460deg (a difference of 390deg) the resistance only varied by 0.065ohms, and this is on nickel the highest coefficient of resistance.. without melting everyone's brains with Math just consider what a static resistance of 0.005 can mean, especially if it alters to 0.007 at 460deg, to the software trying to guesstimate the temp of the coil

the purpose of that graph was to illustrate how much variance there is between material with respect to the coefficient of resistance at temperature.. the point I was and am still trying to make is that your mod needs to have the proper information in order to properly respond, if you mod does not have a setting for Ti then running Ti on that mod has risks, it simply does not react the same as nickel so the Math to regulate temp will be skewed

thanks for the clarifications. I got your point, but did not know that the graph is different based upon the starting resistance of the coil

Now I know...and knowing is half the battle
 

Emberwilde

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Please allow me to fry even more brains.. I did a little experiment a short while back; I took a single nickel coil and tested it in 5 different decks on 2 different mods the coil was (based on Math) a 0.05ohm, it read between 0.049-0.072 on one mod and 0.052-0.08 on the other mod...
I think it goes without saying that the atty(s) that were off by as much as 0.02-0.03 are no longer getting ni200 coils ;)
 

Mattp169

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Please allow me to fry even more brains.. I did a little experiment a short while back; I took a single nickel coil and tested it in 5 different decks on 2 different mods the coil was (based on Math) a 0.05ohm, it read between 0.049-0.072 on one mod and 0.052-0.08 on the other mod...
I think it goes without saying that the atty(s) that were off by as much as 0.02-0.03 are no longer getting ni200 coils ;)
out of curiosity
which tanks were off on their readings
and which tanks did you test that worked fine?

im new to tc and coil building
and I have had MASSIVE issues on a pair of kanger subtanks
 

Emberwilde

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out of curiosity
which tanks were off on their readings
and which tanks did you test that worked fine?

im new to tc and coil building
and I have had MASSIVE issues on a pair of kanger subtanks
the two worst were the subtank mini rba deck and the lemo 2, in both cases the connection between the 510 and the deck is a contact connection and as such is subject to variations in static resistance
(if anyone is unaware contact connection means that the two pieces simply touch each other and are not hard fastened [not screwed together])
 

Emberwilde

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With the temp ranges we're working with vs. the "danger zones" of the metals... do you feel that such a variance risks some outgassing of "nasties"?

Because I regularly "trick" my TCs by resetting a coil higher... by about that much (0.03).
Hits much harder but still not an overly "hot" vape.
tricking your TC mod is not something I would do, higher temp and or different coil types can achieve warmer stronger vapes without defeating the entire purpose of a TC build.
I went to TC to never get a dry burnt hit again, I utterly despise that... with the temp limiting I can get caught up in what I am doing, not have to worry to remember to check on my juice levels.. if my tank runs dry what I get now is anemic hits
 

Emberwilde

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Aren't almost all of them? The deck/coil screws into the base, the base screws into the mod.

Off the top of my head, an exception would be the iSub tank, where the coil head is the connector screwed into the mod.
no, see on things like the Goliath, the Cthulhu, the Goblin Mini for example the positive connection is a screw connection to the 510 pin at the base.. the subtank mini rba deck screws into the base yes, but the positive connection is strictly contact, the lemo 2 is the same
 

Emberwilde

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I completely agree with being able to ease up on the amount of attention paid... especially with RDAs. Lovely.

I've only used Ni so no experience with the "use Ti with a Ni only mod".
My question was, if the temp is still down in the normal usability range... is there danger?
More directly... why do you abandon TC on tanks with as little as a 0.03 read error?
okay, 0.03 in my table is a difference of 20deg F.. a 20deg shift can on some occasions cause a risk of burnt.. like I said I despise burnt..
 

f1r3b1rd

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Did you try the kf4 and sqr? Not really my thing. But I'm curious on how they may havr faired out
 

Emberwilde

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Did you try the kf4 and sqr? Not really my thing. But I'm curious on how they may havr faired out
had a Kayfun 4 (clone) but with that spring thing they did at the base I didn't even bother trying it.. besides honestly the idea of top fill was fantastic, the super secret decoder ring approach to it (turn this that way then turn that the other way then......).. not so much
 

f1r3b1rd

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had a Kayfun 4 (clone) but with that spring thing they did at the base I didn't even bother trying it.. besides honestly the idea of top fill was fantastic, the super secret decoder ring approach to it (turn this that way then turn that the other way then......).. not so much
Roger, o keep talking t busardo about that nd hoe need to quit praying for TC on a kf4
Even with the spring uograde
 

f1r3b1rd

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Rat wise I had the best results with the erlkoenigen
 

MarkS

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My TC is all Ni200 coils in the following tanks: Russian 91% (with a FT top fill cap and air overdrilled), Fogger V6.0 (running dual), and Atlantis 2. SS sounds very attractive but all my TC Mods are Yihi board based... bumming.

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f1r3b1rd

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I have sx350j and dna40's only for TC. like I said though I have a dna200 enroute,
 

MarkS

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I bet the Assholo could vape it...

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f1r3b1rd

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The assholio could vape my asshair and i'll never get that fresh fart smell
I bet the Assholo could vape it...

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MarkS

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Sorry man... couldn't resist!

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f1r3b1rd

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Me neither, if I had long asshair that would make for an interesting build
 

MarkS

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Naw... too high of resistance. Besides... taste control can only do so much! Sorry for the interruption. And now... back to your program.

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f1r3b1rd

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I dunno, my asshair is low resistance
 
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Mattp169

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had a Kayfun 4 (clone) but with that spring thing they did at the base I didn't even bother trying it.. besides honestly the idea of top fill was fantastic, the super secret decoder ring approach to it (turn this that way then turn that the other way then......).. not so much
@Emberwilde Could you recommend a tank that has an rba deck and ni200 coils that does well with TC?
 

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Not a whole lot of reasons to use temp control on SS wire since it vapes so cool. The only thing it would be good for is dry hits.
 

f1r3b1rd

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Not a whole lot of reasons to use temp control on SS wire since it vapes so cool. The only thing it would be good for is dry hits.
Like the assholio
 

MarkS

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I can personally vouch for three I use all the time
the Epoch D1 from Ehpro
the Cthulhu (might want to wait for v2 looks Epic)
the Goliath Version 1 or Version 2

I was disappointed with the Cthulhu V1. I really like the vape that the Silverplay gives but its atomizer chamber is a little small (I couldn't get my 3 mm coils in it with enough room for my comfort).

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ahm yea,,,,please describe the SS wire you used
These SS coils were stock heads for the Phantom, and the Triton sub tanks.
 

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Once you build a perfect tc setup, it's hard to go back to kanthal and wattage. I just got my titanium wire so I'm gonna see if that's the tops
 

f1r3b1rd

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Once you build a perfect tc setup, it's hard to go back to kanthal and wattage. I just got my titanium wire so I'm gonna see if that's the tops
Do you have any top airflow RDAs, the Aeolus v2 is probably the nest tc vapes I've had
 

TheBloke

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TC SS works pretty well, but you need the right equipment.

The only mods that can do accurate TC with SS at the moment are those that can modify their TCR down to SS' level of 0.001. These are:
  1. The Dicodes chip, as found in the Dicodes 2380, Dicodes Dani Extreme v2 and the Pipeline Pro 2 (which is identical to the Dani Extreme v2 besides name/brand)
  2. The Evolv DNA 200 chip, as found in an increasing number of mods or self-buildable
  3. The SXK DNA 40 clones, such as the Zero 50 and 60W clones, rDNA 60W clones (big and small screen), Vapor Flask 40, 50 and 60W clones, and their self-branded big screen Nebula (which in physical form is a clone of the Hana v4s)

The TCR value to use is between 0.001 and 0.00105, I generally use 0.001. On the Dicodes this is a TCR setting of 100, on the SXK this is a 'NIckel Purity' setting of 10. On the DNA 200 you currently can't enter a flat TCR figure of 0.001, because it's hard limited to a min of 0.002 - this will be fixed in the next FW update. But you can instead download the TCR curve data from Steam Engine, and this may be marginally more accurate anyway.

Stainless Steel is right at the lower range of accurate TC with current technology. Dicodes describe it as being accurate to the nearest 30°C / 90°F, compared to Ni200 which is accurate to nearest 5°C / 10°F. That may sound bad, but in practice it's fine. The key word is that SS TC is 'repeatable'. You can change your temperature until you find a vape that's good, and once found you know you can set the same temp again in future and get the same build (assuming same mod and similar enough build.) That's all most people want/need from TC.

Advantages of stainless steel over Ni200 is that it's much stronger, has a much higher base resistance (0.50Ω is my average SS build) which enables a wider range of builds and wire gauges, and it can be dry burnt for cleaning and for checking coil firing (eg check for firing inside-out as we do with Kanthal.)

Its benefit over Titanium is the dry burning, and its strength - I regularly find my 26G Titanium gets chopped up in slightly crappy/sharp post holes, where my 26G Stainless Steel almost never does. And also it's less springy - rolling a SS coil around a 3mm rod I get a 3mm coil, versus a 3.25mm coil with Titanium.
 
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TheBloke

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One of my current SS builds, that I'm vaping on right now in the Dicodes. I've also vaped it in my SXK mods, though I prefer to use the Dicodes because the SXK TC is a little choppy. But it does work.

3l13U9Dl.jpg
 
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TheBloke

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I've had that one going for a week or more, through a couple of flavour changes (dry burning in between) and it's holding up well. Wire is 0.45mm SS 317L, 9 x 3.0mm wraps reading 0.48Ω.

I've also done TC vaping with Aspire Triton 0.40Ω SS coils and it worked surprisingly well. I was impressed.

(PS. Sorry for spreading this out over three posts. This forum software thinks I'm a spammer if I try to write more than a few paragraphs in a single post. If I don't come back to post more, that's why.)
 

f1r3b1rd

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TC SS works pretty well, but you need the right equipment.

The only mods that can do accurate TC with SS at the moment are those that can modify their TCR down to SS' level of 0.001. These are:
  1. The Dicodes chip, as found in the Dicodes 2380, Dicodes Dani Extreme v2 and the Pipeline Pro 2 (which is identical to the Dani Extreme v2 besides name/brand)
  2. The Evolv DNA 200 chip, as found in an increasing number of mods or self-buildable
  3. The SXK DNA 40 clones, such as the Zero 50 and 60W clones, rDNA 60W clones (big and small screen), Vapor Flask 40, 50 and 60W clones, and their self-branded big screen Nebula (which in physical form is a clone of the Hana v4s)

The TCR value to use is between 0.001 and 0.00105, I generally use 0.001. On the Dicodes this is a TCR setting of 100, on the SXK this is a 'NIckel Purity' setting of 10. On the DNA 200 you currently can't enter a flat TCR figure of 0.001, because it's hard limited to a min of 0.002 - this will be fixed in the next FW update. But you can instead download the TCR curve data from Steam Engine, and this may be marginally more accurate anyway.

Stainless Steel is right at the lower range of accurate TC with current technology. Dicodes describe it as being accurate to the nearest 30°C / 90°F, compared to Ni200 which is accurate to nearest 5°C / 10°F. That may sound bad, but in practice it's fine. The key word is that SS TC is 'repeatable'. You can change your temperature until you find a vape that's good, and once found you know you can set the same temp again in future and get the same build (assuming same mod and similar enough build.) That's all most people want/need from TC.

Advantages of stainless steel over Ni200 is that it's much stronger, has a much higher base resistance (0.50Ω is my average SS build) which enables a wider range of builds and wire gauges, and it can be dry burnt for cleaning and for checking coil firing (eg check for firing inside-out as we do with Kanthal.)

Its benefit over Titanium is the dry burning, and its strength - I regularly find my 26G Titanium gets chopped up in slightly crappy/sharp post holes, where my 26G Stainless Steel almost never does. And also it's less springy - rolling a SS coil around a 3mm rod I get a 3mm coil, versus a 3.25mm coil with Titanium.
Ok... I use ss now in a regular RDA, I haven't tried it in tc, should have the dna200 in the next few days, but it looks like the answer to my quest is: yes, I can use it for tc with the dna but for now I have to upload the curve from steemengine to escribe?

Also I can build with it the same way as Kanthal? (6wraps dual coil @ 3mm)
 

TheBloke

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Ok... I use ss now in a regular RDA, I haven't tried it in tc, should have the dna200 in the next few days, but it looks like the answer to my quest is: yes, I can use it for tc with the dna but for now I have to upload the curve from steemengine to escribe?

Also I can build with it the same way as Kanthal? (6wraps dual coil @ 3mm)

Yes, you need to use the PC software eScribe to upload the TCR curve, which you can download from Steam Engine as a CSV file.

This is true of all wires other than Ni200 - unfortunately the DNA 200 only has out-of-box support for Ni200, other wires must be customised in eScribe. Meaning anyone without a PC, or access to one, is SOL on that.

There's two ways to put in TCR in eScribe - the curves, which you can either draw/edit on screen or download from other sources such as Steam Engine; or a single TCR figure. The single TCR figure matches what other mods support. For Titanium for example, the figure is 0.0035. For Stainless Steel it's around 0.001, but currently eScribe won't let you enter a TCR that low so the CSV curve import is the only way.

When they next update eScribe and the FW, it will be possible to enter a single TCR of 0.001 meaning you can just do it with eScribe, and not need to get the CSV from Steam Engine. Though as the CSV might be more accurate, you may as well do that in all scenarios.

Yes you can build it the same way as Kanthal. I guess a dual coil of 6 wraps will give you around 0.25Ω, which is OK - depends on the thickness of wire of course. I usually do single coil and my builds are around 0.50Ω.
 

TheBloke

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Though in an RDA with a DNA 200 I would wonder why you wouldn't want a more adventurous build than 2 x 6 wraps. Go crazy, you've got the space and the watts :)
 

f1r3b1rd

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ehhh, we shall see
 

Mattp169

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@Emberwilde do you have any experience with the Billow V2 in terms of knowing if its positive connection is screwed in or is it contact?

I have heard so many good things about this rta but do not know if it will work well for me in TC. I am hoping you might have some insight
 

Emberwilde

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do not own a billow v2, perhaps someone who does can answer that for you (nudge nudge)
 

f1r3b1rd

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Having the bellowV2 it does work really well in TC with nickel. The downside is you have to wrap the coil either contact coils or very tightly for spaced coils. That buildeck barely has enough space for a fart.
Can't give you any opinion on it with TI though.
 

Mattp169

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Having the bellowV2 it does work really well in TC with nickel. The downside is you have to wrap the coil either contact coils or very tightly for spaced coils. That buildeck barely has enough space for a fart.
Can't give you any opinion on it with TI though.

@f1r3b1rd would you say the billow v2 deck is smaller then a kanger subtank deck, and doesnt the billow v2 allow you to build dual coils?
 

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