Discussion in 'Unregulated (Mechanical) Mods' started by pulsevape, Jan 20, 2017.
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Really nice presentation .!
And throw it like a grenade! Duck and cover!
Mooch, have you tested the other efest 26650? It is rated 50 amps by the manufacturer and definitely outperforms the one you have listed. I doubt it will be near it's rating though.
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Thanks for this information op and all contributors. I’ve been vaping since last couple of years and now wanted to try my hands on mech mod.
I’ve a question though- I can see the resistance of my coils, I know the mAh of the battery I’m using. But how would I know that the setup that I am using is safe to vape?
Eg. I’ve a sony vtc6 20A 18650 battery and my tanks reads .34 ohm of resistance. Per ohm’s law It gives me voltage of 6.8 v and power of 136 watts. Which in my understanding is way more than safe. Could anyone pls explain this to me?
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It never is safe. But instead there's something we call "relative safety". As for Ohm's law, those 20A are not what you'll get if vaping at .34 ohms. Instead, for a single battery mech mod you need to take the highest voltage the battery can deliver (usually that will be 4.2 volts). Next, you need to divide that by your resistance (.34 ohms in the example you gave). The end result in this particular example is only 12.35A, not 20A. The CDR (Continuous Discharge Rate) of the VTC6 is 15A. So the reason why you will be "relatively safe" is because 12.35A is below those 15A... that is, as far as the specific part of battery safety guidelines that addresses the coil resistance on a mech goes.
It gets more complicated than this after you also factor in other things like the voltage sag of the battery and the voltage drop caused by the mech mod. It means the coils in your tank are not truly getting 4.2 volts from a fully charged battery, but rather, it will be much less than that. But to vapers who are new to mech mods it is generally recommended to start by keeping it simple, to avoid any confusion when dealing with safety, and to gradually familiarize yourself with all the proper safety aspects, one small step at a time, as you venture into the world of using mech mods.
The VTC6 can in fact sustain 20A, but it can NOT sustain 20A continuous, as it will eventually overheat to dangerously high temperatures if using it at 20A continuous. What that means is, you could decide to vape on it at 20A (and actually even higher than that), but only if you are aware of the fact that you need to watch out with the battery temperature by letting the battery cool down for reasonable periods of time between hits, and also you are aware of the fact that, if the fire button gets accidentally pressed for a long period of time at 20A you risk venting the battery. I.e., know the risks─and know them extraordinarily well─before you even think about choosing to accept these risks.
To get a handle on how fast the battery heats up (and cools back down again), you can pull the battery out of the mod after every couple of hits, and feel how warm the battery gets. The whole idea about that is to teach yourself to know perfectly well when it's time to let the battery rest. How fast the battery will build up heat inside your mech mod will not only depend on the ohms versus the battery make and model, but also it will depend on, among other things, your vaping style: the duration of each individual hit, and the wait time between consecutive hits (i.e. the specific usage pattern of so-called "duty cycles").
Finally, if you haven't already discovered this, then I highly recommend that you follow this:
Thank you much for taking time and answering my questions
Here’s what I got tonight when I reached home after work
Its a clone vGod mod that I ordered off eBay. I didn’t like the vgod rda that came along so I’m using my limitless plus. Will keep your instructions and suggestions in mind while using it.
I’m also watching mooch’s video and it’s really very informative.
Will keep you all posted about my mech mod adventure journey
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Much less? Much much less? That's the question, and it's actually surprisingly difficult to answer, especially with a tank. One could use an in-line 510 volt meter, but that adds two extra points of contact and some additional resistance itself. With an RDA, it's much easier. Pull the cap off an use a volt meter on the posts of the atty.
In any case, I would say "Somewhat less" rather than "Much less", and I agree, 4.2V is the number that should be used for these calculations.
The voltage sag you'll get from the hardest hitting 18650 battery commercially available on the planet today if you vape at the CDR of this same battery, combined with the voltage drop you'll get from your preferred unobtanium tube mech, will be about ½ volt, i.e. about 12 percent at least. So no. Not somewhat less. Not in any case excepting in your imagination.
So I pulled out the battery after one drag, couple of drags and after several (3-5) drags to check how the battery is heating up. And I found that it’s not heating up at all. Is it ok? Does it mean that I can take 4-5 drags (which is my usual pattern) and let it sit for some time to cool down?
I also noticed that I am not getting as warm drags as I used to get from my Vfeng or rx200 with same tank same air flow at around 65 -70 watts. What could be the reason behind that?
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Well now you know why I chain vape like a madman at .11 ohms on a single VTC5A. lol Some people just love being so totally paranoid is all... but for reasons that are obvious, aside from a dead short you still need to make perfectly sure to always avoid accidental button presses and a stuck button, which is why you can't recommend going that low in ohms to anyone especially those who are new to the mech, as it only takes one headless chicken to hit the news again and ruin all the fun.
I’m still in doubt about the flavor. I’ve heard that the mechs are best for vapor and flavor (coil setup counts too). But on my vgod I’m not getting much of the flavor. Whereas same tank on my rx200 gives me a flavorful vape. Any thoughts on this??
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Sell your tanks and grab yourself a decent RDA... what also works for me to improve the flavor on a regulated mod is ArcticFox─specifically, the power curves feature in it (and of course the usual factors like the coil build, the wicks, the airflow, and juice). Especially with bigger, power hungry coil builds I found that the mod itself can also make a significant difference, which is the first thing I noticed when I moved from my RX2/3 to my RX300 about a year ago, albeit these days anything that isn't a mech barely gets used anymore. As for those .11 alien builds. Their flavor truly is excellent. I vape on them pretty much every day now, but I still switch to different builds fairly often... just not on a single battery mech. On a single battery, SS316L kills flavor for me due to having too slow ramp up. (Same exact reason why, with those bigger builds, I use a power curve or series mech or paraseries mech.) I like a warm vape from time to time. Only problem, with the vast majority of fruity juices, that I also like─and like them a lot, warm vape simply doesn't work. Warm vape without much ramp up on a single battery can work for some, but for me it just doesn't.
Although I don’t like the RDAs much as I don’t like the inconvenience of carrying the juice bottle with me everywhere. I’ll surely give it a try - any recommendations?
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At times when you can't drip constantly, you could grab yourself a squonker. My favorite single coil RDAs are the 24mm and 30mm Deathwish Modz Deathtrap... and they come with a squonk pin already included. For dual coil it just depends... the Purge Mods Head Shot and the Carnage, the Kennedy 24 and 25, the Scoundrels Genießen "The Tornados", the BJ Box Mods Culverin, the Vaperz Cloud Mini Buddha 2 and the Buddha V4, the 24mm and 30mm Vapergate Mason V2 as well as the 24mm and 30mm postless decks that are compatible with both the regular Mason RDAs and the Gemini Series II RDAs, the 24mm 528 Custom Vapes Goon and the 1.5 (only after you put on a Kennedy/Goon style acrylic drip tip by Half Moon Mods LLC), the Hellvape Dead Rabbit, and the Wotofo The Troll RDA 2. Just to name some.
This is why I prefer RDTAs. The flavor of an RDA with the convenience of a tank. I suppose the same could be said for a Squonk, but I already have enough mods at the moment.
Well if RDTAs gave the flavor of an RDA, then the manufacturers would simply stop making RDAs... there's no such thing as a free lunch.
FOR ALL THE NOOBS. DON'T BE A MORON!
Hey, I have a question that seems appropriate for this thread. My own progression with vaping happened to unfold so that the first decent higher wattage box mods had just come out when I was ready to upgrade from the Vamo/clearomizer gear I had been using, so basically I skipped over the mech phase. I'd say I'm a rather experienced vaper, but with some cool squonk boxes available, I'd like to get a clearer sense of how these numbers I've familiarized myself with apply to real life scenarios.
Let's assume I have a good understanding of battery safety, ohm's law, etc, and let me offer a scenario.
Let's say I have a roll of basic clapton wire, and plan to run a dual coil setup in an RDA, in a single 18650 mech squonk. Increasing the number of wraps raises the resistance, hence safer? But that greater amount of metal will increase the ramp up time, which might lead a vaper to take longer chain vapes, hence using the battery harder, possibly making it more dangerous? Using less wraps decreases the resistance, cutting down ramp up time, and so requiring less intense vape sessions to get a good vape. I would expect the latter case to be less hard on the battery, except that there's the lower resistance of the coils to consider?
That's basically the real world picture that I'm not quite clear on, and I'm hoping some people can just offer their 2 cents. I understand that there is an extreme end of the spectrum that I'll stay far away from, but in the middle ground, I'm not sure how far I can push it, in terms of building with less wraps, and so a quicker ramp up, while still keeping things safe.
Dual Claptons are strike me as a less-than-optimal build to run on a single 18650 mech. Of course much depends on just what kind of Clapton wire you're using, and how little battery life you're willing to accept.
In any case, as long as you stay below the CDR of the battery, it should be "safe".
A better way IMO would be to just grab yourself a bunch of Samsung 20S batteries and then worry about the resistance later.
Thanks for alerting me to those 20S Samsungs, @Carambrda , I'll keep those in mind.
And ya, after posting those questions, I realized that really the answers I'm looking for I'd get from just playing around with one of these devices myself. I wasn't so much asking for what's safe, as what are some optimal builds for a single 18650 mech squonk. But that's super subjective, of course.
The impetus for asking is actually the fact that I run a small vape business in a popular tourist destination in central Mexico, In the past, I've only sold regulated mods, for obvious reasons. But lately I've had more customers inquire about squonk mech mods, and knowing that they'd just go find them in one of the shit shops down here and get fuck all for guidance, I've decided to start offering them, since that way I can at least fully education each customer on everything they need to know to use that type of device safely.
It is super subjective. It is, but IMO regular clapton coils are a pure waste of everybody's time because fused claptons are pretty much just as easy to make and require almost zero extra effort to make, yet the vape performance is a huge upgrade. Next in line would be alien coils, as they are an even bigger upgrade, but it takes time and practice to learn how to make them. The sweet spot for me on a single battery mech (squonker or not squonker, doesn't factually matter) appears to be a dual coil aliens build at .11 ohms, using 3 pieces of 27g Nichrome80 wire for the cores and 36g Nichrome80 for the alien wrap wire, at 2.5mm inner diameter, 4.5 wraps. There is very little ramp up time with these coils as the wire is still relatively thin, and the coils are still relatively small, AND Nichrome80 heats up noticeably faster than any of the other popular metal types used in coil building (i.e. Kanthal A1 and SS316L) given the same calculated wattage (that is, the amps multiplied by the voltage or the voltage squared divided by the resistance). Other logical reasons why─other than the performance─also include the fact these coils are relatively fast and easy to make. Like I said it just takes some practice and learning a few tricks, but some people just aren't handy enough, or they don't have time, or else it's the combination of both. The rest is just stubbornness about what the tricks should be like... you'll just have to take my word for it. Finally, Nichrome80 happens to be a highly durable metal type.
As for the part about safety, I agree this is always going to be a big concern. But as far as the resistance of the coil build goes, unless you can get a satisfying enough vape from using much higher ohms on a single battery mech (I sure as hell can't...), you're going to have to accept that people need to learn batteries are not stoves, and that knowing when to let the battery cool back down again is more paramount than understanding Ohm's law or teaching people how to become yet another fucking Ohms nazi. Torn battery wraps and damaged insulator rings around the top (positive) contact on the battery are far more dangerous than pulsing the Sony VTC5A somewhere halfway in between 30-35 amps knowing when to put the mod down and give it a rest as well as knowing how to prevent the mod from auto firing for a long period by accident. That is, and probably always will be, my view. Just let the pinheads continue to vape at or above .2 ohms if that's what they prefer, or if they want to remain pinheads for the rest of their vaping lives.
Whats a pinhead?
Truer words. Learn to rewrap your batteries regularly. And learn to be sensitive to the heat coming off your mech. My 18650 mechs are usually anywhere between .11 - .15. For me it is a good enough vape. But lately I'm using stacks more so .3 - .36 or so. I also have started getting 20700/21700 tubes - I just like the added reserve. My XXX I stack with 20700s.
I actually get pissed at people telling me mechs are not safe. Then I see their regulated moids with 510s full of juice and their batteries all torn and beat up. Seriously? Mech users are generally much more particular about maintenance of their batteries and devices.
Generally more snobby, elitist, and up their own arses too. Or is that just forums in general
and how does that related to 0.2R vaping? - still not seeing the connection
Still not seeing the connection tends to be a common trait among pinheads.
Perhaps its because I don't understand what is bad about 0.2R vaping. Clearly you are looking down on people that do it / it carries some sort of stigma for you (and others perhaps) but why? If that's what suits some people why isn't it a case of each to their own rather than looking down on that subgroup?
"0.2R vaping" can neither be bad nor good because it doesn't even exist. It's called "vaping at or above .2 ohms on a single battery mech", and the only thing bad about it are the pinheads who keep telling everyone who wants to vape on a single battery mech to not go below .2 because the pinheads will start to cry immediately as soon as someone does go below it, and then the crying never stops because pinheads will always be pinheads no matter how hard we try to explain things.
Ahh ok, I see what you are driving at. Personally I see no reason why you can't go below 0.2R on a single cell as long as you are sensible about it.
Theoretically the most current you would be drawing with a 0.1R coil is 42A, and with Vsag and Vdrop I imagine you'd be lucky to draw 35A on a fully charged cell with a high current rating. A decent battery should be able to cope with that well enough without venting/ going bang.
Seems to me that with all the FDA stuff going on there is a large body of people who are concerned that any negative incidents with vapes might lead to tougher restrictions on vaping and they are getting a bit over the top with their policing of others as a result of being driven by that fear. The flip side of that is people like yourself end up resenting them for their lecturing and push back. It all seems a bit unnecessary to me.
I do 0.13 to 0.18 on mechs with a single VTC5A and never had a problem.
I don't chain vape either though.
Wow, I don't suppose you get a lot of run time out of that at on a .13R coil? What voltage to you take it down to before you recharge?
I don't resent them. It isn't their fault that they are pinheads, it's just that we shouldn't let them keep on forever misinforming people who are new to the mech, as any misinformation about any part of vaping is only going to cause even more damage to the vaping community that's already under heavy attack, and, if we're going to win this fight against the anti-vaping lobbyists we need to set a clear enough example by keeping our facts straight as much as we possibly can because we need the FDA to believe in truth as well as believe in the truth we speak.
Informing newbs to stay within the CDR of their cells, to ensure that their cells are genuine and in good shape, and that their builds are tested is far from a pinhead move. It's a responsible move. Note that I am saying within the cells CDR... Not 0.2 Ω.
I routinely vape as low as 0.14Ω on a single 18650 mech. And, I chain vape from time to time. But I'm using quality cells from a known source. And, all builds are tested out on a decent ohm meter before use.
No, a pinhead move is not passing along good info to newbs. Worse, passing along outright bad info.
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Sure thing, but the pinheads are repeatedly telling EXPERIENCED MECH USERS to stay within the CDR. I chain vape at .11 ohms on a mech with a single VTC5A (actually these days it is a single VTC5D) each and every day, pretty much all day long, and have been doing so for almost as long as I remember vaping.
Plenty enough run time for a single.
Using SS exclusively so the resistance goes up anyway when the coils get hot.
My point about the pinheads was that, with every chance they get, they avoid talking about the possibility of going above the CDR and or about what it takes to responsibly go above the CDR so no, responsibility is clearly not part of their agenda. Only the "blowing your face off" scaremongering part is their whole agenda, and, I know an Ohms nazi when I see one.
Well maybe not you, but I can assure you there are plenty of them around here. To them, going above the CDR is always verboten, or else they just tell you to not do it unless you know what you're doing, which is obviously correct advice, but when it comes to their explanation of what it is you should know to become knowledgeable about what you're doing, they give you the kind of silence that's as deafening as a battery explosion, if not more deafening.
Love that fact with 316L and 304. Build lower so cold resistance ramps faster like a preheat on regulated device!
SS wears out in like only 3 days so not exactly convenient if you, like me, prefer to use well-contemplated advanced coil builds and you happen to be a slow builder. (Often times, it takes me months to take on another attempt at building an excellent new coil or two because I only build when I'm in the right mood for it, and that sort of tends to only happen every once in a blue moon.) Ni80 is much, much more durable as well as heats up faster so on the mech the voltage sag of the battery is typically all that's needed to get little to no ramp up with Ni80 coil builds done right.
WTF are you doing that make SS wear out in 3 or 4 days? I've got a set of SS316L fused claptons in my tank right now... Going on 3 weeks. Rewicked twice. No issues.
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Wears out? As long as you don't rip out the wicks like a gorilla and treat them with reasonable care (SS tends to be softer and easier to deform) you certainly shouldn't have issues. I've gone literally months on a build. I used to change builds like underwear but when I get them just right I leave well enough alone.
Simply vaping the same way I always vape with Ni80 3-core aliens 27g/36g 4.5 wraps 2.5mm ID dual coil at .11 ohms in an RDA on a single battery mech. I rewick about twice a week on average, using Cotton Bacon Prime... replacing the 36g Ni80 wrap wire with SS316L lengthens the ramp up time and gives a weaker vape that lacks almost any kind of punch.