Should be the same - the artificial flavors are simply using the chemicals that make up a 'natural' flavoring.
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Very Alarming News Dr. Farsalinos found that diacetyl was in 74% of the e-liquids that were tested.
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Should be the same - the artificial flavors are simply using the chemicals that make up a 'natural' flavoring.
I vape and consume coffee so the stupids can live. Without them there would reports of a stupid genocide.
Jonathan Tittle
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Try Hangsen Blueberry. It's as yellow as Capella Vanilla Custard and it's easily detectable at 2-3% (never tried it at less than that).
Even though you weren't talking to me, I will have to try that one as I do like Hangsen (for some things). Does Hangsen claim that flavor to be of actual blueberries? Just curious. I may fool around and end up liking that flavor. What a predicament!
People who brew their own beer and wine learn to detect very small amounts of naturally-occurring diacetyl. One way they train themselves is by taking two identical 'clean' samples, adding artificial butter flavor to one, and tasting/smelling the difference (repeating with lesser amounts of artificial butter flavoring). After learning to recognize it that way, they can detect it in their own brews. It's the same molecule, whether or not it comes from a flavoring bottle.
Somewhat related...diacetyl is naturally present in real butter, but there's more in many artificial "spreads." In salted real butter, the salt helps preserve it. In unsalted real butter, diacetyl is often added as a preservative. So if you took a sample of unsalted butter, added some salt, and compared it to salted butter - depending on how much diacetyl you can detect - you might taste the difference. With all the research on the health effects of diacetyl in the past 5 years, many brands of fake butter, popcorn, butter-flavor Crisco, and other food products have reformulated to eliminate diacetyl.
You were stimulating your neurotransmitters, nicotine and caffeine tend to do that,....
Buttered blueberry? LOL
glassgrl
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Interesting! I've tried so many blueberry flavorings and they all (so far) have that sour, pukey taste.
Then I want them stimulated again!! Honestly, I think I was less fuzzy last year (aging that fast, hmm?). Am I really getting that much less nicotine now? I chain vape, so one wouldn't think so!
Now I I would not be able to smell it in crisco, all I smell is rancid canola and soy.
Jeez! The zen of identifying diacetyl! LOL. I think I get it what you are saying -- it's may be close to how I have gotten attuned to identifying MSG in dishes. Not that I care anymore, but it does stick out like a sore thumb when before it was all salt to me. Not anymore. Once I knowingly worked with the stuff, I can sense it in small amounts.
I missed the part about the unsalted butter earlier. Interesting - I grew up with salted butter, but we used to go to France all the time where the butter was unsalted - and of course there was a ton of fresh bread. I could never understand why anyone would want unsalted butter until I began to cook (I can't taste it in cooking).
But that french butter was how fresh and unmolested?
Big difference between what you get there vs. the stuff they call butter in our grocery stores.
Exactly! Exactly the same with diacetyl. It's very easy to detect, after you experiment with it a little.
Jonathan Tittle
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It's a really good flavor, but definitely has at least one of the chemicals in there.
StrappedKaos
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If anyone is interested I want to recommend a company light years ahead of almost every juice company out. I make no money and do not work for them.
the company is called kind juice.
The actually use a method of natural extraction using cane sugar alcohol that is pg/artificial flavor/gluten and so much more free. They spend a large amount on the process and it is amazing. The flavors are so spot on because there is nothing artificial as its all natural extraction, the whole line is beyond perfect. But they have a limited amount of flavors because of the process and amount of time required to make them.
I have no skin in game for them but they are one of the safest brands out.
the company is called kind juice.
The actually use a method of natural extraction using cane sugar alcohol that is pg/artificial flavor/gluten and so much more free. They spend a large amount on the process and it is amazing. The flavors are so spot on because there is nothing artificial as its all natural extraction, the whole line is beyond perfect. But they have a limited amount of flavors because of the process and amount of time required to make them.
I have no skin in game for them but they are one of the safest brands out.
Jonathan Tittle
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Natural / Organic extractions using actual base (i.e. real blueberries, strawberries, etc) ingredients run the risk of extracting natural Diacetyl from fruits, coffee and other mediums, so I wouldn't call the flavors the safest, especially if I felt that Diacetyl was as much of an issue as it's being made out to be.
Unless they have a guaranteed way of removing it during or after extraction, the chances of it being present is pretty much guaranteed.
Natural extracts, no matter how they are made, can equally be, if not even moreso, problematic when diacetyl is concerned. That is not to say I won't check them out, but that I won't be doing so under the guise of them being a diacetyl free vendor. Hopefully they aren't making too many claims, if any.
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I completely understand were you both are coming from, I cannot guaranty it to be free of that. I can say that after listening to click bang about it all they are more then likely going to pay if not all ready to have them check. I am thinking they distill the extracts and I know they use zero pg in all mixes. I would say with the amount of money and time invested they are more then likely investing in the test also. The have very few flavors as the extraction process limits it greatly, as far as overall I would find it hard to imagine anything on the market being as safe as a whole.... baker white is up there also but use artificial flavors. I do agree it could contain diacytl but as far as removing chances they go above and beyond by elimination of the middle man.
StrappedKaos
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Also to add, the owner was completely transparent when I talked to him. Open book about it all but I didn't ask about diacytl because I dont normally buy juice and I make it, i cant afford to test and dont sell so I am always trying to be aware of options and the main issue is the flavor companies lying to use all. I also naturally extract using vg as I have pg allergies but even then I can't verify what I do is safe so only I vape it.
It's cool. I did check them out. I notice my suspicions were correct about that innuendo with the word "kind."
Jonathan Tittle
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They can eliminate the middle man and do their own distilling, though that alone isn't going to remove the chemicals. All distillation will do in this case is concentrate the flavoring so that the percentage of flavoring required is less than would be from a general drop & steep extract (similar to what many do with vanilla beans - drop them in, let them steep, wait, use).
I'm not saying they're a bad company, far from it, but that's the issue with natural & organic extracts. Diacetyl occurs naturally, as an example, in both Apples & Blueberries. Ceylon Cinnamon has Coumarin as do Strawberries, which can be toxic (Ceylon contains lower levels, Cassia contains the higher levels). In most cases, natural is going to contain more than their artificial counterparts. Artificial can be controlled, whereas natural is, well, natural and unless it's removed before being used in the e-liquid, it's going to be in the e-liquid.
tombaker
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Has anyone seen the full text of the Dr. F survey yet?. I am surprised it has not been released in full to the people that funded the study. Dr. F has said he has contacted all of the vendors to tell them that they have Di-acetyl in their juices. But that was like 2 months ago, and I have not seen 118 vendors saying they are reformulating their juices. I am pretty sure that only way to get the survey accepted for publishing is to include all the background data, in detail. Without all the data, it simply can not be peer reviewed. You can not review it, if its not included.
Because its termed as "sweet" flavors the information released is even more confusing. Is sweet Orange Smoothie one of the juices, how about candy juices, or a Root Beer? If its simply milk, cream, and butter, then it should be said that way.
Flavour Art E-Cig line of flavors should is fine, and from the earlier list posted they are the only ones. Make me want to start DIY also.
The jury is still out on Mother's Milk too, if she comes back and says she uses Flavor Art E-Cig line of flavors, her juices will check out. But then of course everyone trying to get a perfect clone of MM will ditch the others, and start working like mad with just the FA E-Cig flavors.
Because its termed as "sweet" flavors the information released is even more confusing. Is sweet Orange Smoothie one of the juices, how about candy juices, or a Root Beer? If its simply milk, cream, and butter, then it should be said that way.
Flavour Art E-Cig line of flavors should is fine, and from the earlier list posted they are the only ones. Make me want to start DIY also.
The jury is still out on Mother's Milk too, if she comes back and says she uses Flavor Art E-Cig line of flavors, her juices will check out. But then of course everyone trying to get a perfect clone of MM will ditch the others, and start working like mad with just the FA E-Cig flavors.
Yeah, I feel you, but they never promised to show us the study though. This is in part what was stated on Indiegogo:
- Unfortunately there are no gifts that we can give. Detailed information and proper scientific research is all we can offer.
- The study and all details will be published in an international medical journal.
And I am 90+% positive that vendors were notified that were tested. They are under no obligation to do diddly with that information though. Where does that leaves us? Dunno. They know. And they know. The consumers, some of the ones whom this study was meant to inform, are left wondering. Maybe that's the point? For us to wonder about all liquids? Like I said earlier, I am starting to barely care.
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I almost foresee it being end user consumer to vote with their dollars to make changes happen.
SMOKIE
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Here is a vendor that discloses his liquid contains Diacetyl, so now it would up to the consumer if wanting to buy.
Celtic Fog
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OH NOOOOOO, Diacetyl!!!! quick everyone, drop your gear and juices and run out and grab a BLU E cig or a pack of Camels, they are much safer....much safer! People need to learn how to spot a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So true! I don't even mind non-disclosure. What I take the biggest issue with is saying things, as if factual, but without proof -- let alone to find out those things were not true. Either say "we don't know," "we've tested and it ain't so" or state nothing at all.
Celtic Fog
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Mount Baker Vapor claims they have no diacetyl or any product that can lead to diacetyl and they also claim to have the ability to back it up, but nobody believes them without paperwork...what is this, prison.....Got to carry your paperwork everywhere you go....lol
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My local B&M had all of their e-liquids tested about a year ago and is happy to share the large folder full of results for all his flavors. I'd like to see this become the new norm.
Celtic Fog
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well, i believe them and I don't need to see their files either.
I don't understand the push back about disclosure? As consumers we should expect to be informed about wether or not there is a potentially dangerous substance present in our juice. As I previously stated, my juice claims to be 100% diacetyl free, do I believe it... After reading this no. I am still vaping it, yes, and that's MY choice. I have no comprehension as to how transparency is a bad thing.
Do we know enough to be sure that trace amounts of diacetyl is gonna do serious if any harm? I think the jury's out. Just don't make claims you can't back up. It's a matter of ethics, plain and simple. Go grab a bottle of diacetyl and vape it if that makes you happy. I don't care if that's your stance. It's just ridiculous to not desire some further info, and more so, honesty. Would you be pissed if you bought a re wrapped battery, and it blew up in your face? I think so. Maybe a bit of an extreme analogy, but it is more than reasonable to desire that this is further tested.
And as far as the doctor, not disclosing the juices and vendors is un ethical as well. It is simple, if you make a claim about something regarding safety, be able to back it up. Otherwise just don't make said claim... I'm done. Don't wanna argue.
Do we know enough to be sure that trace amounts of diacetyl is gonna do serious if any harm? I think the jury's out. Just don't make claims you can't back up. It's a matter of ethics, plain and simple. Go grab a bottle of diacetyl and vape it if that makes you happy. I don't care if that's your stance. It's just ridiculous to not desire some further info, and more so, honesty. Would you be pissed if you bought a re wrapped battery, and it blew up in your face? I think so. Maybe a bit of an extreme analogy, but it is more than reasonable to desire that this is further tested.
And as far as the doctor, not disclosing the juices and vendors is un ethical as well. It is simple, if you make a claim about something regarding safety, be able to back it up. Otherwise just don't make said claim... I'm done. Don't wanna argue.
Now I'm going back to vaping some NicQuid Mint Chocolate Chip in my dripper. I'm doing a rare sub ohm build of .8, and trying to reset my taste buds... Got some vapers tongue.
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I just wanted to add this...
I for one appreciate the fact that the people that have been responding to my post are doing so in a positive and constructive manner. I again dont know if they are or are not tested, but its nice to converse about a topic using constructive criticism. I for one think we are looking at the entire situation in a positive light and coming together to get the outcome needed to further safe vaping.
I for one appreciate the fact that the people that have been responding to my post are doing so in a positive and constructive manner. I again dont know if they are or are not tested, but its nice to converse about a topic using constructive criticism. I for one think we are looking at the entire situation in a positive light and coming together to get the outcome needed to further safe vaping.
For anyone who wants to know all about diacetyl/subs, history in the food industry, all the medical case histories, statistics, technical info regarding measurement systems, biological studies, (etc.), here is the best single document to peruse. It's a 500+ page document:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-245/0245-081211-draftdocument.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-245/0245-081211-draftdocument.pdf
This may help put things in perspective
That vendor's graphic doesn't say which eliquid or which cigarettes are being compared, but we already know some eliquid has no diacetyl at all, while other eliquid is loaded with it.
I have seen some debate concerning what happens to diacetyl as it is combusted (as it is in smoking, but not during vaping), but I've never seen a definitive conclusion. Not being a smoker any more, I don't really have much curiosity there.
HIC, I am not sure if you can see it on your screen, but that graph is from Dr.F and the level represented are the medians. Granted, we don't know which specific brands were highest in either cigarettes or eliquid. But, all in all, it still puts things some sort of perspective, though I am not sure how combustion vs. vaporization plays out regarding diacetyl.
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Ah, here we go: CH3COCOCH3→CH4+CO+CH2=CO from here: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jcp/7/11/10.1063/1.1750359
So if diacetyl thermally decomposes into carbon monoxide during combustion, that helps explain why bronchiolitis obliterans is not common among smokers (and why cigarette smoke contains so much carbon monoxide).
@HeadInClouds
Still trying to wrap my head around it, but there is some real meat there to chew on. Thanks for that info.
*Edit* Re-read it -- I understand it a *little* better now. If what I gather is close to accurate, I do wonder though, if it decomposes into CO from combustion, why the need to compare the amounts in cig smoke if diacetyl doesn't stay intact that way? Isn't that apples to oranges? It just seems to be a way of demonizing smoking as *far worse* by an unfair comparison. If diacetyl through vaporization is what are concern is, and only is, comparing the amounts to the combustion of cigarettes is not a fair comparison.
Granted, I am no scientist (not even close) and I mean nothing more than trying to understand what appears to me to be mixed messages. Hopefully my questions make sense.
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And this is why I am glad I DIY. The Flavor Apprentice clearly states on their products what does and doesn't contain Diacetyl, Acetyl propionyl and soon will be replaced with Acetoin. I personally am not worried about this whole scare fest. If you(the general vaping population) want juice makers to test their products and they don't sorry it is on you to find a replacement company to get your goods from....or pay for it yourself. Yes I completely support transparency....but don't think businesses should be forced to do it.
This is just like how the anti-GMO/Organic pushers are pushing companies around to bend to their will. I don't support that. If you don't like how they proceed with their business then move on. Others may not agree with me and that is okay....just like you I am allowed an opinion. (note when I say you I mean the general vaping community...not anyone in particular)
This is just like how the anti-GMO/Organic pushers are pushing companies around to bend to their will. I don't support that. If you don't like how they proceed with their business then move on. Others may not agree with me and that is okay....just like you I am allowed an opinion. (note when I say you I mean the general vaping community...not anyone in particular)
Like I've said in earlier posts, if ya'll are scared. Just send the juice to me, and we'll call it good ... I'll live is long as ya'll will.... It's just a CDC/FDA/Big Pharma SCARE Tactic! Dr. F is paid by Big Pharma and is a complete nut job!
... I'll live is long as ya'll will.... It's just a CDC/FDA/Big Pharma SCARE Tactic! Dr. F is paid by Big Pharma and is a complete nut job! 
"All flavors are Diacetyl free!"
This is the issue, plan and simple -- fraud. Fraud compounded by excuses, lies, more excuses, and cover-up. And at least one business whose immoral owners belong in prison. I will personally cheer when their business has been shuttered and the steel doors slam closed behind these owners.
Here, look for yourself. This is is diacetyl soup, http://flavorwest.com/index.php/water-soluble-flavoring/butterscotch.html And the owners unequivocally know this FACT -- they were confronted and provided independent test results months ago. But did they pull or reformulate this product? No. Do you see a consumer warning on this product? No. The apparent the extent of their action was to remove the fraudulent claim on this product -- though still made elsewhere on their site. And no excuse, this is a flavor manufacturer owned by an ecig company.
Hell yeah, I'm mad. And, hell yeah, I think vapors should be concerned. This has been a ongoing issue for years and years. Behavior like the above is inexcusable, unconscionable, and criminal. This is not about ignorance -- this is about money, profits and the unsuspecting. Hell, microwave popcorn manufacturers removed diacetyl ten years ago -- and yet the above supplier adds in large quantities to a product for direct inhalation? Personally I don't expect to see change until the unscrupulous are sitting in prison.
This is the issue, plan and simple -- fraud. Fraud compounded by excuses, lies, more excuses, and cover-up. And at least one business whose immoral owners belong in prison. I will personally cheer when their business has been shuttered and the steel doors slam closed behind these owners.
Here, look for yourself. This is is diacetyl soup, http://flavorwest.com/index.php/water-soluble-flavoring/butterscotch.html And the owners unequivocally know this FACT -- they were confronted and provided independent test results months ago. But did they pull or reformulate this product? No. Do you see a consumer warning on this product? No. The apparent the extent of their action was to remove the fraudulent claim on this product -- though still made elsewhere on their site. And no excuse, this is a flavor manufacturer owned by an ecig company.
Hell yeah, I'm mad. And, hell yeah, I think vapors should be concerned. This has been a ongoing issue for years and years. Behavior like the above is inexcusable, unconscionable, and criminal. This is not about ignorance -- this is about money, profits and the unsuspecting. Hell, microwave popcorn manufacturers removed diacetyl ten years ago -- and yet the above supplier adds in large quantities to a product for direct inhalation? Personally I don't expect to see change until the unscrupulous are sitting in prison.
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soulshine
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While I in NO way condone what FW did. There's a big picture about all of these flavoring companies that people need to understand. NONE of them are in the business of providing flavors that were initially intended for vaping. "Our" business...although I'm sure it's provided them with a decent boost as of late, means NOTHING to them and we are such a small part of their sales, they probably didn't take it seriously. If you think that not having your DIY business is going to close FW...or TPA...or any of the others' doors is moronic. If you try to sue them, they will say "hey, we never made any these flavors for inhalation." Were they dishonest, sure they were. Do they really care if vapers go elsewhere...nahh. Instead of hoisting the pitchforks (here we go with the witch hunt theme again..anybody see a pattern??), how about supporting brands like Flavourart who have now separated their flavor lines and have tons of flavors for vaping and they provide all the info. How about educating yourself on how to navigate TPA's site as they have begun providing information on their flavors regarding diacetyl and directing vapers to their reformulated flavors. I understand being upset with FW but get real. They aren't closing (or going to jail..lol) because a couple hundred vapers are upset with them. Best you can do is educate new DIYer's to stay away if they are concerned about staying away from diacetyl completely. I personally never wanna see FW go away just for their Candy Cane...LOL Be outraged about the crumbling economy, our endless wars, our rights being RAPED daily by our clueless leadership, no cure for cancer, hell there's plenty to pick from. A crusade against flavor companies who's worlds WE infringed upon (they didn't market to us) will be about as pointless as a one legged man entering an ass kicking contest...LOL
Edit: Just to explain a little further because I realize that my post was a bit sarcastic, and realizing that many people post their unfiltered thoughts without fully reading all of the threads:
The way that FW can get away with saying "diacetyl free" is because the flavors are marketed for consumption. The regulations for that are quite different than anything that would apply to vaping. For example, if there is SOME diacetyl but under a certain percentage, then it can effectively be advertised as diacetyl free as FOOD FLAVORING. Just the same as there are a certain amount of "insect parts" or many other "yuckies" that are in "acceptable ranges" that go into cereals...chips...all types of food. I've never seen them say "this is diacetyl free so VAPE YOUR FACE OFF PEOPLE!!"...maybe they did..I've never seen that. When I see these things on their sites, I always go in with the mentality that these are food flavorings...not vaping flavorings.
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Actually the US Govt has cures for all Diseases and Illnesses, but would much rather control population with death & make insurances go broke on BS Doctor Bills. But their are Cures! Endless Wars - Actually wars that we're never meant to be, their over Greed/Power/Oil/Jewels etc..