Very Alarming News Dr. Farsalinos found that diacetyl was in 74% of the e-liquids that were tested.

[soulshine]

Actually the US Govt has cures for all Diseases and Illnesses, but would much rather control population with death & make insurances go broke on BS Doctor Bills. But their are Cures! Endless Wars - Actually wars that we're never meant to be, their over Greed/Power/Oil/Jewels etc..

Umm....ok bro...I have NO idea what you just said....but ok.

Honestly....I'm still trying to process the quote from earlier about Dr. F being a paid Big Pharma agent and a "complete nutjob". So let me "process" that a little more...LOL

 

[MD_Boater]

Actually the US Govt has cures for all Diseases and Illnesses.

Yep... They keep it in the same vault as the plans for the 100 MPG 4 barrel carburetor.

 

[Vangrl]

This may help put things in perspective

keep in mind that chart is showing median levels. This is a direct quote from Dr F - "As mentioned, the median values were much lower than cigarettes and only 2 times higher than safety limits. However, as you can understand there were samples with some extreme levels. We mention in the paper submitted for publication. 15% of the samples had >10 times higher levels of diacetyl that current safety limits, and a further 10% had >100 times higher diacetyl levels than the current safety limits."

 

[Mr.Mann]

keep in mind that chart is showing median levels. This is a direct quote from Dr F - "As mentioned, the median values were much lower than cigarettes and only 2 times higher than safety limits. However, as you can understand there were samples with some extreme levels. We mention in the paper submitted for publication. 15% of the samples had >10 times higher levels of diacetyl that current safety limits, and a further 10% had >100 times higher diacetyl levels than the current safety limits."

Those must be some straight butta liquids that are that high! Wow!

Thanks for that quote.

 

[Vangrl]

Russ/Click-Bang is pretty harsh, but he does make a good point that many vendors did not take any action regarding Lab results Dr F disclosed months ago disclosing that 70% of 170 juices tested came back positive for diacetyl, but there is so much commotion regarding him sending one juice in for testing. One would think it’s because he’s “named” a company, which Dr F did not. It’s unfortunate, and maybe not fair, but if that’s what it takes for vendors to finally step-up then I find it hard to disagree with what he’s doing.

 

[RyGon]

Russ/Click-Bang is pretty harsh, but he does make a good point that many vendors did not take any action regarding Lab results Dr F disclosed months ago disclosing that 70% of 170 juices tested came back positive for diacetyl, but there is so much commotion regarding him sending one juice in for testing. One would think it’s because he’s “named” a company, which Dr F did not. It’s unfortunate, and maybe not fair, but if that’s what it takes for vendors to finally step-up then I find it hard to disagree with what he’s doing.

I only listened to the first episode but he also named Space Jam as not providing info and I have Starship 1 sitting in front of me. It certainly has an imitation butter smell in there.

 

[LoveVanilla]

While I in NO way condone what FW did. There's a big picture about all of these flavoring companies that people need to understand. NONE of them are in the business of providing flavors that were initially intended for vaping. "Our" business...although I'm sure it's provided them with a decent boost as of late, means NOTHING to them and we are such a small part of their sales, they probably didn't take it seriously. If you think that not having your DIY business is going to close FW...or TPA...or any of the others' doors is moronic. If you try to sue them, they will say "hey, we never made any these flavors for inhalation." Were they dishonest, sure they were. Do they really care if vapers go elsewhere...nahh. Instead of hoisting the pitchforks (here we go with the witch hunt theme again..anybody see a pattern??), how about supporting brands like Flavourart who have now separated their flavor lines and have tons of flavors for vaping and they provide all the info. How about educating yourself on how to navigate TPA's site as they have begun providing information on their flavors regarding diacetyl and directing vapers to their reformulated flavors. I understand being upset with FW but get real. They aren't closing (or going to jail..lol) because a couple hundred vapers are upset with them. Best you can do is educate new DIYer's to stay away if they are concerned about staying away from diacetyl completely. I personally never wanna see FW go away just for their Candy Cane...LOL Be outraged about the crumbling economy, our endless wars, our rights being RAPED daily by our clueless leadership, no cure for cancer, hell there's plenty to pick from. A crusade against flavor companies who's worlds WE infringed upon (they didn't market to us) will be about as pointless as a one legged man entering an ass kicking contest...LOL

Edit: Just to explain a little further because I realize that my post was a bit sarcastic, and realizing that many people post their unfiltered thoughts without fully reading all of the threads:
The way that FW can get away with saying "diacetyl free" is because the flavors are marketed for consumption. The regulations for that are quite different than anything that would apply to vaping. For example, if there is SOME diacetyl but under a certain percentage, then it can effectively be advertised as diacetyl free as FOOD FLAVORING. Just the same as there are a certain amount of "insect parts" or many other "yuckies" that are in "acceptable ranges" that go into cereals...chips...all types of food. I've never seen them say "this is diacetyl free so VAPE YOUR FACE OFF PEOPLE!!"...maybe they did..I've never seen that. When I see these things on their sites, I always go in with the mentality that these are food flavorings...not vaping flavorings.

Soulshine, if Flavor West cared about anything except their own profits this flavor description would now read "This flavor contains diacetyl." You are in denial -- and defending the unscrupulous. Jerry Sandusky molested children for over ten years because others made excuses for his actions.

Nobody should back off this supplier unless they start doing the right thing. That does NOT include lying -- including lies by omission -- about known, potentially hazardous ingredients to increase sales.

 

[Wabah58]

Are the independent studies done yet from Russ?

 

[soulshine]

Soulshine, if Flavor West cared about anything except their own profits this flavor description would now read "This flavor contains diacetyl." You are in denial -- and defending the unscrupulous. Jerry Sandusky molested children for over ten years because others made excuses for his actions.

Nobody should back off this supplier unless they start doing the right thing. That does NOT include lying -- including lies by omission -- about known, potentially hazardous ingredients to increase sales.

LoveVanilla, I wasn't saying that they weren't wrong for lying to vapers. My point is that they could care LESS about your (or my business). The flavors aren't for vapers.. Food flavoring standards are very different than any of our flavoring standards (where there finally ARE some) are likely to be. You want to put them out of business when their attitude is "hey...if it's not working out for you...sorry". Does it suck? Sure it does. But there are plenty of other companies that are reformulating and trying to work with vapers. Why not just use your energy in pointing people to companies that care about us and what we need? You're acting like they "owe" us something and that justice must be done...when that's never gonna happen. The Wall St banks DESTROYED out economy an none of them went to jail, but you think because FW made a couple of posts on their website, they should all be tried, convicted and jailed? LOL By all means, you are welcome to start as big a campaign as you like. I was just pointing out how silly it is because their business is NOT FOR VAPERS. IT"S FOOD FLAVORING. Trust me, you don't need FW. Get some Flavourart and relax

Edit: And just for the record...to make the point YET AGAIN because you obviously have no concept of how big these companies actually are....your money means NOTHING to them. If I were to guess I bet their total sales to the vaping community amount to less than 2% of their sales. They would probably appreciate that our business go away so that they can just keep raking in all the cash they were making before we ever came around and not have any potential problems (like this) to deal with. I'm not defending them. I'm just suggesting that maybe we sometimes think we are actually a little more powerful, influential and important than we actually are. I mean just look at the PATHETIC amount of FDA comments that actually got turned in. Let's be a little more "self aware"...shall we?

 

[soulshine]

Are the independent studies done yet from Russ?

He said last night that they should be ready by next week's show.

 

[Wabah58]

He said last night that they should be ready by next week's show.

Thank you, and do I have this correct, TFA and FA are the only 2 flavor companies that offer msds info on all their flavors?

 

[soulshine]

Thank you, and do I have this correct, TFA and FA are the only 2 flavor companies that offer msds info on all their flavors?

I'm not aware of any others Wabah58. But I will be the first to tell you that I don't know everything..LOL There may be more now. I know that a lot of the juice companies are jumping on the bandwagon and getting their finish products tested. Kevin said on Russ' show last night that they are going to put together a website to post that info, including whatever paperwork the companies send in. Not sure of timeframe.

 

[Mr.Mann]

The vaping business as a whole is huge to flavoring companies that we use and many of them would simply be another flavoring company floating in a sea of other companies were it not for vaping. While it is true that they could not care less about vaping since many of them made those flavorings without vaping in mind, if these companies care about their bottom line, i.e., money, they do care about those that vape/make eliquid, even if just the money they generate. And whether or not their products are made for vaping (inhalation) or not, if a company makes claims on their products for being free of something and it turns out to no be so, they are still culpable. They may not be culpable if someone got sick from their flavorings if that person used it for inhalation, but finding out the products do contain diacetyl/AP are irrefutable and not dependent upon the usage.

 

[Vangrl]

LoveVanilla, I wasn't saying that they weren't wrong for lying to vapers. My point is that they could care LESS about your (or my business). The flavors aren't for vapers.. Food flavoring standards are very different than any of our flavoring standards (where there finally ARE some) are likely to be. You want to put them out of business when their attitude is "hey...if it's not working out for you...sorry". Does it suck? Sure it does. But there are plenty of other companies that are reformulating and trying to work with vapers. Why not just use your energy in pointing people to companies that care about us and what we need? You're acting like they "owe" us something and that justice must be done...when that's never gonna happen. The Wall St banks DESTROYED out economy an none of them went to jail, but you think because FW made a couple of posts on their website, they should all be tried, convicted and jailed? LOL By all means, you are welcome to start as big a campaign as you like. I was just pointing out how silly it is because their business is NOT FOR VAPERS. IT"S FOOD FLAVORING. Trust me, you don't need FW. Get some Flavourart and relax

Edit: And just for the record...to make the point YET AGAIN because you obviously have no concept of how big these companies actually are....your money means NOTHING to them. If I were to guess I bet their total sales to the vaping community amount to less than 2% of their sales. They would probably appreciate that our business go away so that they can just keep raking in all the cash they were making before we ever came around and not have any potential problems (like this) to deal with. I'm not defending them. I'm just suggesting that maybe we sometimes think we are actually a little more powerful, influential and important than we actually are. I mean just look at the PATHETIC amount of FDA comments that actually got turned in. Let's be a little more "self aware"...shall we?

Flavor West is geared towards vapers, it opened along with their other company Vapor Renu. They are one in the same. I'd venture to say that most of their business is from the vaping industry. You only have to peruse their website for 60 seconds to figure that out. Every flavor has a comment regarding E-cigs.
Other companies not so much, they've been around forever, selling to many industries, but I have no doubt that their profits have exploded in the last few years due to the vaping industry
http://flavorwest.com/index.php/liquid-base.html
https://www.facebook.com/vaporrenu

 

[BigNasty]

Flavor West is geared towards vapers, it opened along with their other company Vapor Renu. They are one in the same. I'd venture to say that most of their business is from the vaping industry.
Other companies not so much, they've been around forever, selling to many industries, but I have no doubt that their profits have exploded in the last few years due to the vaping industry
http://flavorwest.com/index.php/liquid-base.html
https://www.facebook.com/vaporrenu

If they were geared toward vaper then why in satan's blue waffle are they bullshit and dodging the diacetyl question.

 

[Mr.Mann]

If they were geared toward vaper then why in satan's blue waffle are they bullshit and dodging the diacetyl question.

I imagine because that flavor is a hot seller! That's one of the saddest parts in all of this: many of us want a change, but a lot of that many still want those flavors. I love that some of the companies let the consumer make their own decision (I see you Linda!). You can be honest and let the consumer decide -- many will still buy.

 

[BigNasty]

I imagine because that flavor is a hot seller! That's one of the saddest parts in all of this: many of us want a change, but a lot of that many still want those flavors. I love that some of the companies let the consumer make their own decision (I see you Linda!). You can be honest and let the consumer decide -- many will still buy.

Going rounds with a supposed amsea member now, not saying who they use for flavorings but they are diacetyl free.
I hope that shit don;t continue to fly.

 

[MD_Boater]

Ah, here we go: CH3COCOCH3→CH4+CO+CH2=CO from here: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jcp/7/11/10.1063/1.1750359
So if diacetyl thermally decomposes into carbon monoxide during combustion, that helps explain why bronchiolitis obliterans is not common among smokers (and why cigarette smoke contains so much carbon monoxide).

Hmmm... I was reading an article I found shared on Dr. F's Facebook page, and I saw this:

In the full text of the manuscript, the authors explain that the main problem caused by diacetyl exposure is a decline in respiratory function characterized by a decline in a spirometry parameter (FEV1). Bronchiolitis obliterans (“popcorn lung disease”) is a rare condition, even in cases of exposure to high levels of diacetyl. The cut-off level of risk calculated by NIOSH for the safety limit is for 1 in 1000 chance of suffering reduced lung function associated with lifelong diacetyl exposure, which is a very conservative estimation. However, many samples contained levels much higher than safety limits. Moreover, unlike tobacco cigarettes where these chemicals are produced during the combustion process, in e-cigarettes they are used as ingredients. Thus, this represents an avoidable risk, which should be removed.

“The study is important because it confirms the lower risk potential of e-cigarettes compared to smoking but also identifies an avoidable risk” said leading author Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Hmmm... I was reading an article I found shared on Dr. F's Facebook page, and I saw this:

In the full text of the manuscript, the authors explain that the main problem caused by diacetyl exposure is a decline in respiratory function characterized by a decline in a spirometry parameter (FEV1). Bronchiolitis obliterans (“popcorn lung disease”) is a rare condition, even in cases of exposure to high levels of diacetyl. The cut-off level of risk calculated by NIOSH for the safety limit is for 1 in 1000 chance of suffering reduced lung function associated with lifelong diacetyl exposure, which is a very conservative estimation. However, many samples contained levels much higher than safety limits. Moreover, unlike tobacco cigarettes where these chemicals are produced during the combustion process, in e-cigarettes they are used as ingredients. Thus, this represents an avoidable risk, which should be removed.

“The study is important because it confirms the lower risk potential of e-cigarettes compared to smoking but also identifies an avoidable risk” said leading author Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos.

Oh, wow. So it's not an ingredient in cigarettes, but something that is produced via some other decomposition or something? Just crazy!

 

[MD_Boater]

I think Dr. F should take the juices with the highest diacetyl content and have the actual vape tested to see what happens. It seems like that would be the next logical step. Does anybody know if every molecule in a vape cloud actually touches the hot coil? If so, the diacetyl may get burned off.

The text I quoted above seems to indicate that most diacetyl containing juices deliver far less diacetyl than cigarette smoke. That would still be harm reduction.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I think Dr. F should take the juices with the highest diacetyl content and have the actual vape tested to see what happens. It seems like that would be the next logical step. Does anybody know if every molecule in a vape cloud actually touches the hot coil? If so, the diacetyl may get burned off.

The text I quoted above seems to indicate that most diacetyl containing juices deliver far less diacetyl than cigarette smoke. That would still be harm reduction.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/238345295/Dr-Farsalinos-study-on-diacetyl-in-e-liquid

The study was pretty thorough and tested liquid and vapor form -- as stated in the study, "similar concentrations were found in liquid and vapor for both chemicals". See figure 5 in the link for the comparisons. That question though about the differences in liquid form vs. vapor form is still a good question.

I now disagree with the notion that harm reduction is the end all be all because one could make the argument that even if eliquid had just half the carcinogens of cigarettes then that too would be harm reduction. I get the premise, but it can be sticky if just using a reduction in harm as an argument in favor of (not saying that you are though). My harm was reduced 4 years ago now, so for me, cigarette comparison kinda doens't work. I would have to compare eliquid to eliquid, or eliquid to not vaping at all, for harm reduction (if I was to need that comparison).

 

[HeadInClouds]

Diacetyl in tobacco, tobacco smoke, and eliquid - a few scientific facts:

Pyrazines are formed in tobacco leaves during curing and processing. (Source here, which discusses the chemistry in good detail.) Those chemicals absolutely are present in tobacco before it's ever consumed.

Diacetyl decomposes thermally, producing carbon monoxide. (source here; this has been known since at least 1938.) Heat is the catalyst; more heat = more molecules decomposed in shorter time.

Tobacco in a cig is combusted at higher temperature than eliquid is vaporized.

 

[RyGon]

Diacetyl in tobacco, tobacco smoke, and eliquid - a few scientific facts:

Pyrazines are formed in tobacco leaves during curing and processing. (Source here, which discusses the chemistry in good detail.) Those chemicals absolutely are present in tobacco before it's ever consumed.

Diacetyl decomposes thermally, producing carbon monoxide. (source here; this has been known since at least 1938.) Heat is the catalyst; more heat = more molecules decomposed in shorter time.

Tobacco in a cig is combusted at higher temperature than eliquid is vaporized.

This reminds me of some info I found years ago about steam cured tobacco. Swedish snus was my first step in harm reduction away from cigarettes and that industry made some claims about certain harmful chemicals that were not being formed in steam curing vs flue curing.

 

[BigNasty]

This reminds me of some info I found years ago about steam cured tobacco. Swedish snus was my first step in harm reduction away from cigarettes and that industry made some claims about certain harmful chemicals that were not being formed in steam curing vs flue curing.

Fermented vs. cured.
Funny the EU and countries that produce it have WICKED higher standards for food safety and snus is considered a food product in terms of how it is produced.

You get all sorts of additives above the curing with american chew/dip like fiberglass and whatever other shit they scoop off the floor.

 

[FyrPrf1]

I'm not telling anybody to STFU man. That's not my point. I'm all for people expressing their opinions. My point is that we all knew about diacetyl. Some seem to feel like Dr F did harm with the study when he didn't. All he did was tell us what we already knew. Now it's "official" so they can't be in denial about it anymore. Some, like MrMann seem to want all the names and juice names so they can go on crusades about these vendors. Now some vendors SHOULD be crucified and that will come out. Listen to ClickBang from Tuesday night. But from what I understand most of those vendors were new to the industry and didn't realize the seriousness of the issue. Dr F just simply informed all the vendors and most have already started reformulating juices and some just plain discontinuing the ones that they can't (or aren't worth) reformulating. My point was that this is just something for most people to jump in on yet another vape drama. I'm not saying it's "no big deal"...but people are screaming like the sky is falling when in reality..all they gotta do is find a new flavor profile of juices to vape. It's not like there aren't a GAZILLION on the market. Most of us smoked for a LONG time...one flavor...allllllllllllll day everyday. Does it mean you lose a few flavor options? Yeah. NO BIG DEAL. h Hell there are a few VERY smart people already among us like HIC that are already figuring ways around it. It's just the sky can't fall every week. I'm not the most positive person in the world..but even I REFUSE to allow that to happen. That's all.

Agree w/ you 10000% Just wondering why most are SO angry with.. the juice vendors? They are NO different than ALL of us &/or anyone using DIY, who have "apparently" been lied to - They get their flavorings from the same places! If they've been very careful since the whole "diacetyl scare" about 1.5 yrs ago.. & the flavoring companies supposedly stopped selling anything with that ingredient in it or labeled as such ..... If they ONLY bought/used nic, vg, pg & flavorings from places that didn't contain it .... ?!? then, one would think they have every right to say it doesn't contain diacetyl, no? If I were a diabetic (which I am, for many years.... no ill effects or raise in blood sugar, btw.. from those ingredients) & bought a sugar-free diet Cherry-pepsi.. If it made me sick & I thought it had sugar in it.... 1) should I have been expected to get that liquid tested for sugar "before" drinking it.. to be sure? (no) 2) If I did send it in, tests showed it has sugar.. found in, or possibly from a cherry flavoring -- should I be angry OR feel "deceived" by the store I bought it from? (no) It would be the person who made that specific ingredient..... the manufacturer of the flavoring is who lied/false advertised. No different than Pepsi.. shouldn't have to test a flavoring marked "100% sugar free" to prove it as such, before using it. Whomever makes it that way- is the responsible person for how they sell it.... in our case, FA/TPA/ETC, not juice makers, right? or... ? There's an interesting read on The Perfumer's Apprentice website.. that has an update as of: 7/20, I believe.. take a look! Also take note, that nearly ALL of their flavorings.... on the MSDS sheets.......... say something to the effect of, "food grade, not proven safe for inhalation". So... ? We ALL know that by this point (or should) ..... & have all still made the choice to vape flavors... Doesn't change the false advertising thing by "flavor companies", not at all... just don't think we should be as heated as we are with e-juice vendors- I mean, they've been riding in the same boat! (& yes I listened to C/B! the other night..... who plans to go after them all.. juice makers that is? Well, if that's the case, the FDA can thank him now & we can prob. say goodbye to most... Wanting to make a point, my fear is he's about to go after the wrong people & it's gonna be so unknowingly damaging. Isn't going to work out so well for all of us tho.. once the $hit-storm is over & all the vapor clears! -pun intended) Yeah, check out the part on TPA about Acetoin.... & esp. "butyric acid"... While I don't like being lied to & feel we should DEF. know (from the flavoring companies!) what's in their flavorings & how much, etc. esp. if they claim it isn't.... I'm way more concerned about being told something untrue-- than having the actual ingredients themselves, to be honest. (for me, anyway) Imho, it's not as horrible at the levels we use it.... as it's made out to be. Some don't want anything in there- I totally get that & can completely understand that; thing is, pretty sure the only way to get absolutely nothing but nic, pg/vg... is to vape unflavored since it's always gonna be "something".. the flavor co's are never going to reveal "everything"..... Keep in mind all these flavorings go in our cakes, chips, etc. NO, we're not inhaling them in those products ... but still. Idk, for me anyway, there are more important things to 'sweat' & fish to fry... besides, so many worse things (prob a lot of same, including diacetyl, acetoin, butyric acid, etc) are probably in the ice cream I just gave my child. =/ So, no, it's not perfect.. never will be.. but it's about choices.... making a "safer" choice ... SO much safer... I'm fine w/ that & just thankful it exists. I'd really like to continue vaping tho.. AND buying my e-liquids from vendors, if possible. Just truly afraid of what's about to come from all this... (sorry so long)

 

[FyrPrf1]

Yeah, I feel you, but they never promised to show us the study though. This is in part what was stated on Indiegogo:

• Unfortunately there are no gifts that we can give. Detailed information and proper scientific research is all we can offer.
• The study and all details will be published in an international medical journal.

I guess it was some of our assumptions on comments like those that lead us to believe we would just see the study and more information. It's not like it's being withheld necessarily (you just have to pay), but I didn't have to pay to see the full text of previous study. I am sure there are reasons for all of this.

And I am 90+% positive that vendors were notified that were tested. They are under no obligation to do diddly with that information though. Where does that leaves us? Dunno. They know. And they know. The consumers, some of the ones whom this study was meant to inform, are left wondering. Maybe that's the point? For us to wonder about all liquids? Like I said earlier, I am starting to barely care.

Yup....... highly doubt they would publicly post about any "reformulation" either... even IF... Imho, esp. to avoid question or losing any sales.... they'd just "do it".... without mention. Getting to the point where I'm right there w/ ya tho... barely caring. They absolutely shouldn't "lie" to us - but as far as ingredients go.. what's in it/what's not.. what's good or what's not.... it's always gonna be something, imho. I feel great in the fact that I'm no longer smoking & am convinced, without a doubt, that vaping is a much healther, much safer alternative. One I'm totally ok with. We each have to make that informed decision tho, for ourselves. Live longER & vape on!

 

[FyrPrf1]

LoveVanilla, I wasn't saying that they weren't wrong for lying to vapers. My point is that they could care LESS about your (or my business). The flavors aren't for vapers.. Food flavoring standards are very different than any of our flavoring standards (where there finally ARE some) are likely to be. You want to put them out of business when their attitude is "hey...if it's not working out for you...sorry". Does it suck? Sure it does. But there are plenty of other companies that are reformulating and trying to work with vapers. Why not just use your energy in pointing people to companies that care about us and what we need? You're acting like they "owe" us something and that justice must be done...when that's never gonna happen. The Wall St banks DESTROYED out economy an none of them went to jail, but you think because FW made a couple of posts on their website, they should all be tried, convicted and jailed? LOL By all means, you are welcome to start as big a campaign as you like. I was just pointing out how silly it is because their business is NOT FOR VAPERS. IT"S FOOD FLAVORING. Trust me, you don't need FW. Get some Flavourart and relax

Edit: And just for the record...to make the point YET AGAIN because you obviously have no concept of how big these companies actually are....your money means NOTHING to them. If I were to guess I bet their total sales to the vaping community amount to less than 2% of their sales. They would probably appreciate that our business go away so that they can just keep raking in all the cash they were making before we ever came around and not have any potential problems (like this) to deal with. I'm not defending them. I'm just suggesting that maybe we sometimes think we are actually a little more powerful, influential and important than we actually are. I mean just look at the PATHETIC amount of FDA comments that actually got turned in. Let's be a little more "self aware"...shall we?

Totally agree........ & yet people are so worked up against the e-liquid vendors themselves... ?? Makes no sense- they are all in the same boat we are. Which... it's been long known & idk.. just think there are bigger fish to fry & more important things to worry about at this point. Live longER & vape on!

 

[Vangrl]

But they aren't in the same boat as all of us. They are businesses selling to consumers and claiming that their product is AA&D free, and we are finding out now that is not the case. I'm not selling juice, I don't have to back up any claim or be held responsible if I make a false claim and it comes back to bite me in the butt.

We've known for a very long time that you can't take the word of flavour vendors, and that independent testing is necessary. Very few actually test, yet I'd venture to say that 99% of juice makers & resellers claim "all our juices are diacetyl free"

Surely at the very least they should remove that claim if they are not testing and are not 100% sure that it is AA&D free? Does that not feel like the responsible thing to do? I know if I was making juice and didn't test, for legal reasons alone, I'd just say "I'm not sure if this contains AA&D". Reading these posts it's blatantly obvious that some don't care and they'd still have a market.


And, regardless of whether you don't really care if diacetyl is in your e-juice, the media will care, and it won't be pretty. And some of us do care and we'd like the choice to be able to purchase juice that doesn't have it, but it's pretty hard to do that when you can't trust the claims.

 

[Celtic Fog]

Schell from Vapor Bar is setting Bar higher. For those of you who want to know you are getting a safer alternative to smoking, here you go. Thank you Schell!

 

[Mr.Mann]

I've tried to maintain that what upsets me is not the notion that anyone is lying per se (and I try to stay consistent with this -- as can be seen in the thread on the other forum about the study), but that any market out there that is already under siege, like in the vaping industry, needs to not be making bold product claims that they themselves can't verify. But one thing that did feel more like a lie to me was vendors knowing that their flavors had acetyl propionyl/acetoin in them and yet they beat the drum of "no diacetyl", but never mentioned the "substitute" when a simpleton like me can do a 5 second search and find out that the substitutes (especially acetyl propionyl) are the same as diacetyl for why some want to avoid diacetyl.

I still say, just don't say anything or say our liquids "may contain" blah, blah, blah and deal with it. The issue was that few years ago when the diacetyl scare began, vendors got flooded with really persistent, plentiful and sometimes aggressive questions from customers and would-be customers about whether they were diacetyl free or not -- it damn near became a matter of making a sell or not. So I imagine the decision was made to put it on the site (based on the word of their supplier) so that bulk of emails/inquires would not take up so much energy, and because other vendors began making that claim and getting customers because of it.

I get it. That had to be a tough situation to be in. And I don't think there was an easy answer, but a business should always try to cover their own ass as much as possible -- what was done with the omnipresent claims was the opposite of covering one's ass, it was dropping pants and waiting to get "caught" with them down.

 

[Roger Schaeffer]

IMO I have come to believe that the Diacetyl [and its cousins] issue has become the Industries Achilles Heel. The best thing will be if somehow every E Liquid Maker Quickly becomes a member of AEMSA and adheres to their Standards or goes out of business[due to lack of sales]. The E-Liquid Industry needs to Stand United against the use of these compounds or the FDA will use it as an arguement to Ban all Flavors other then Tobacco and Menthol

 

[buffaloguy]

I guess I dont understand all the shock surrounding this info from Dr. F. When I learned he was going to do this study my initial reaction was most of the liquids being tested WOULD be positive for diacetyl. I expected this result, and I think anyone who has been making juice a long time knows diacetyl is a known issue, and that appropriate testing wasnt being done on flavorings for inhalation purposes. We have discussed this in diy circles for years now. The keyhas always been minimize KNOWN risks and until actual data surfaces NEVER take a flavoring manufacturer or juice vendors word that potentially harmful compounds dont exist in their liquids/flavorings.

Most eliquid vendors will take flavoring companies at their word. "My flavoring is diacetyl free cause thats what the manufacturer told me." They are never going to do their own lab testing. Besides they can just call the flavoring company and get their lab analysis. Most of your favorite big name juice makers are nothing more than some schmoe in his pajamas mixing and bottling at his kitchen table and if you think otherwise, thats fine, you can be deluded. They dont have the education, knowledge, or cash to deal with chemical analysis.

Ignorance is bliss. They just dont know better, and if they actually do, AND you can prove that... then its lies or fraud.

As someone whos been mixing a long time, this discovery is kinda "well duh, tell me something I didnt already know captain obvious!" We have all said for a long time custards and diketones(sp) should be avoided in large amounts. If you are going to vape them you do so with risk. We as diyers know this and always have.

The info was ALWAYS there for consumers to research on their own to make educated decisions on what to/what not to vape. So who is really at fault here. Vendors for being misled, or consumers for not educating themselves? Or both?

Just seems a big ol hulabaloo about known info tbh.

 

[Botboy141]

Are there any vendors out there that claim to be diacetyl free and have offered up MSDS sheets for proof?

 

[LoveVanilla]

Are there any vendors out there that claim to be diacetyl free and have offered up MSDS sheets for proof?

Yes, they've tried that. Realize that's not the purpose of the MSDS, and frequently inadequate for the subject at hand. Diketones are not typically tested -- if they are not listed on the MSDS, then they were not tested. And, when they are tested, they are typically testing for levels above 1%. Meanwhile, I would not consider vaping any flavors above 5ppm -- and likely only if zero, or at least below 1ppm.

 

[Botboy141]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean flavor vendors. I meant juice vendors. Like I know Suicide Bunny, Five Pawns, Space Jam etc haven't gotten on board with this, but have any of the smaller guys submitted their juice for testing and posted results on their website of a specific check into diketones?

 

[Mr.Mann]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean flavor vendors. I meant juice vendors. Like I know Suicide Bunny, Five Pawns, Space Jam etc haven't gotten on board with this, but have any of the smaller guys submitted their juice for testing and posted results on their website of a specific check into diketones?

Some have released a few (though I only actually saw one, from MOV), but I can guarantee you more will be coming. Posting test results, now, will give vendors a huge edge, or at the very least another selling point, and I expect to see it happening by the end of the year -- at least from some.

 

[LoveVanilla]

A number post MSDS on their products.

Some have released a few (though I only actually saw one, from MOV), but I can guarantee you more will be coming. Posting test results, now, will give vendors a huge edge, or at the very least another selling point, and I expect to see it happening by the end of the year -- at least from some.

Yes, let's hope suppliers got the message this time. If not, it is time to name and shame. We WILL crowd source the testing and put the bad vendors out of business. Vape suppliers should be the number one advocates for their customer's health -- not sleazy, fly-by-night operations that profit off the unsuspecting.

 

[Mr.Mann]

A number post MSDS on their products.


Yes, let's hope suppliers got the message this time. If not, it is time to name and shame. We WILL crowd source the testing and put the bad vendors out of business. Vape suppliers should be the number one advocates for their customer's health -- not sleazy, fly-by-night operations that profit off the unsuspecting.

The craziest part is that it's not about the low hanging fruit, it's going to be about the BIG names. There's no cover from the crowd when everyone knows your name!!!!

 

[LoveVanilla]

Yes, when consumers have been broadly deceived, it's going to take more than just "trust me". I'm from Missouri, and you are going to have to show me.

 

[bcollier]

For what is worth, Flavor West now has documents on their website showing test results

 

[Mr.Mann]

For what is worth, Flavor West now has documents on their website showing test results

Thanks. I hadn't seen that.

 

[LoveVanilla]

Don't want to waste much time on FW but believe they have now remove diacetyl and acetyl propionyl -- and replaced with acetoin. And in some case, massive quantities. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Count Vapula]

Very nice for TFA to give full MSDS sheets

Most have 'may not be safe to inhale' .. although I couldn't imagine putting 100% flavor into my lungs lol.

Read a few days ago that Diacetyl is a byproduct of the main component reactions in flavorings. Small % though.

So quite a lot will test positive, although the V/V% might be ~1%

As long as you aren't going for a flavor that relies on it (added on purpose), it shouldn't be a huge issue

 

[LoveVanilla]

Very nice for TFA to give full MSDS sheets

Here's the "easy button" if you want to ~bypass diketones with TFA.

 

[bcollier]

Don't want to waste much time on FW but believe they have now remove diacetyl and acetyl propionyl -- and replaced with acetoin. And in some case, massive quantities. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct. And the flavors affected are listed

 

[The Vape Space]

Yes, FlavorWest has also been a very shifty flavoring manufacturer, making claims without proof for a long time... That was something that really erked me, and made me respect companies like TPA, and FA more. One still has to be extremely careful with acetoin, not only is it itself a lung harming compound, but it will easily catalyze into diacetyl if the ph/temperature is lowered - something many flavoring manufacturers/diyers do already.

Glad to see there are people out there that care about this as much as I do.

 

[rohin7]

I know this is an alarmingly old thread but my recent investigations led me here and I feel I should share it with the lot of you as you all seem to have the same concerns I do when it comes to vaping diketones. I will also be making a post in the DIY section to make sure this reaches a wider audience. =)

Flavourart GCMS. Please note they do have "aromas" from their kitchen line listed here

Flavor West GCMS (THEY'VE FINALLY CAUGHT ON)

TFA/TPA Flavour Molecule Component list

Capella GCMS

Flavorah GCMS

If you have more vendors you can/would like to add to this list please comment and "like" this post so I get a reminder to check up =) I'm always looking for new flavourings to try and I'm currently very limited by shady flavouring companies lol

 

[trecenters]

So what is the point in the research? To scare and make everyone aware that it needs regulated? If that happens I wonder which juices will be able to stick around after the taxing starts?

Good time to start DIY. My grandpa made moonshine in Harlan Co Kentucky. This Kentucky boy will be running some fine mixed juice down copperhead road.