Weak Mech Mod

Discussion in 'Ask An Expert' started by WrightRide125, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Been using SS316L on Mechs for a couple of years or so.
    NI200? Nope won't touch it. Only good for TC and that is even debateable.
     
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  2. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    I hear ya. Me too.
     
  3. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    To you and CactusFanaticus I agree 100%.
    I used to use Ni80 for everything. Then I got some stainless and never looked back.
     
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  4. CactusFanaticus

    CactusFanaticus Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Same experience here. I started with kanthal and to get the ohms I was after there was so much coil mass the ramp up was terrible, made me not care for mechs at the time. Started using nichrome for everything and it was great, but once I tried stainless that was it, fast ramp up like nichrome but better flavor for me. Used to vape higher wattage with dual coils 26x2/38 SS 6 wrap fused claptons, these days I’m too lazy to be bothered spinning claptons and use simple round wire single coils.
     
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  5. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    WHAT mod I use is not the point.. the point is... you can create vapor with no airflow therefore airflow is not required to create vapor. Key word is required.

    Now back to the original post.. you can see right off the get go what the problem is.. his resistance is to high to push enough watts through the coil to make any vapor in the first place. Airflow isn't a factor.
    The fact that airflow cools the coil is incidental, you use airflow to cool the vapor the coil just happens in the process. Yes, the airflow helps prevent the wick from burning, but does not contribute to vapor production in any way. Fact is, airflow is more of a preference than a requirement. Some like warm vape, some like cooler vape.. airflow is one of the factors used to regulate this.
    Like I said, you can get vapor without airflow, but you cant get vapor without heat. And what determines heat?
     
  6. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    Watts is what generates your temperature.
    Take what you are vaping now, turn your watts to lowest setting.. note the vapor.
    Now increase the watts to where you normally vape.. note the vapor..
    Did you change the airflow in any way? NOPE. just the power. One gave good vapor, the other didn't.
     
  7. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    Im betting mod one gives more clouds and mod 3 has the best flavor? Sound about right? So if you were going for a massive cloud, the King set up would probably be your go to?
     
  8. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    Exactly my point. I could tell him a decent build, guessing he is using about 5/6 wraps of twisted 26ga kanthal for his build. At 0.41 ohm on a 3.7 volt battery.. this provides 33W power, a very weak vapor. to get a more warm and better vapor, you have to increase the watts to around 50. Removing 1 wrap from his coil would pretty much do this..
     
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  9. Ralph_K

    Ralph_K Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    A 0.20 ohm build would be about right for a 18650 with 20A CDR. If it was me I'd switch to a different type of wire either SS316L or NI80 fused clapton
     
  10. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    I'd never suggest a new vaper use the builds that I use. I developed my tastes in vaping over a period of time just like everyone else and in that time I discovered I like low builds with a hot vape. That being said if I tried to use a .2 build I'd be pissed. Not disagreeing with you. Just saying. I know the limits of what I can do with the builds I prefer. To me right out of the gate a .41 on a single tube 18650 mech would be like trying to get smoke from a cigarette that hasn't been lit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  11. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    The point was you were talking about the warmth of the vape, not the capability to create vapor. Key word is warmth, so I'm not terribly sure how much longer you are going to keep missing the whole point, but........ geez.
    And you REALLY expect me to write a million times over you were talking about WARMTH of the vape? Keep digging the hole.
    FINALLY you're accepting the fact airflow cools the coil. Holy SHIT.
    The cooling effect on the coil happens in the process of vaping with airflow. We don't need funny stories of "just happens in the process" to know that it happens.
    Incorrect. Juice evaporates faster in fresh air than it evaporates in air that's almost completely saturated with vapor so, because airflow removes the vapor pulling it away from the liquid surface on which the evaporation occurs, fresh air from airflow causes evaporation to be accelerated. Faster evaporation also causes the cooling effect to be intensified further. The vast majority of fridges and freezers use evaporation to refridgerate and freeze. In order to compensate for this combined cooling effect that results from both airflow and evaporation, we can boost the wattage up, accordingly. These are all basic common facts.
    Power is what determines heat because the amount of heat is exactly equal to the amount of power, and, that also explains why transfer of heat and conversion of power to heat are expressed as watts. Both power and heat are energy, but despite they are two different forms of energy, doesn't mean the amount of energy will change if power is converted to heat.. the amount of energy stays the same. See: first law of thermodynamics.

    But another main important factor that you keep refusing to address is called temperature. A famous man named Joseph Black, who was also a friend of another famous man named James Watt, observed the rise in temperature of substances that occurs if heat is added to substances. What Jospeh Black found was, despite the amount of added heat was the same, the resulting temperature increase was not, excepting if the substance was also the same. So he discovered that different types of material can have different specific heats. The term specific heat was coined by him, and the term is still commonly used by physicists and engineers everywhere in the world. It is also known as heat capacity. If the heat capacity of the coil is too high, it ramps up too slow, which can be an additional problem that can also happen in addition to the wattage being too low. Wattage. Ramp up. Surface area. Temperature. Airflow and brains.
     
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  12. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Me gives up. wasted enough time on this.
     
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  13. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    The only reason why I put the big drip tip of my black 30mm Deathtrap RDA onto my brass Buddha V4 RDA was because it has that hot coil build in it that I was talking about earlier so the wide bore of the drip tip helps to spread out the hotness of the vape inside my mouth of course, but this build was just an experiment aimed first and foremost at creating a seriously hot vape with still reasonably OK flavor to explore hotness with this RDA instead of wanting to create a massive cloud. It is a .24 ohms dual coil monstrosity that's my own personal adaptation of a big tri-core fused claptons build, using Ni80 for the wrap wire and 3 strands of tiger wire laid in parallel for the cores, using Kanthal for both the round wire and the ribbon wire that the tiger strands are made of. But I have built much smaller builds that also are fairly hot vapes, and that also burn the wicks if you don't suck really very hard. Here is an (excellent IMO) example of that, and I vape this build on a stacked tube mech with 4 batteries in series:

    stapled tiger.jpg
     
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  14. Ralph_K

    Ralph_K Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    With .2 ohms amps are just under the CDR of the battery he is using. If you got pissed maybe it should be at yourself for buying shit mods. My mech is a 21700 and I build .12 ohms. I tried a small rdta with a .4 build on a pulse bf mod just to see what it would do and wouldn't make any vapor at all.
     
  15. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    I'm assuming you misinterpreted what I meant. I meant that for my vaping preference I like a low build hot dual coil vape so .2 wouldn't be anywhere close to what I like.

    And I don't think I'd call SOI and Vaperz Cloud "shit" as you put it.
     
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  16. Ralph_K

    Ralph_K Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I like 21700 mechs and have no interest in single 18650 mechs. Best vape for a mech is lower ohms but you can't go too far below the CDR of the battery or you will kill it. I killed a battery on a .08 ohm build so I learned my lesson. Probably would have been OK if I was using Samsung 30T
     
  17. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    I stated my personal preference. Why you wanted to say what you said is beyond me so ... whatever. I know how to set my, "shit", mods down without killing my batteries.
     
  18. Ralph_K

    Ralph_K Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    You could never run a .08 ohm build in those mechs
     
  19. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    I do it. A lot of people do it. And never have any trouble with it. I just know to hit it a couple of times and then set it down. You can't crank on it. It's not an all day chain vaping build.
     
  20. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    The suggested 0.21/0.20 ohm build is exactly the CDR on a 20A battery, so we normally can recommend this as a reasonably safe build, reasonably safe as no build is 100% safe. Advanced vapers, with a lot of research, can build even lower. I also prefer a fairly warm vapor, but of course I can't state my builds here. Of course, I don't mind helping new mech users with builds within the CDR limits, just as long as they don't expect youtube idiot builds.
     
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  21. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    I agree.. airflow was never the issue and totally unrelated to the OP issue. The problem was never with airflow, the problem was the build was not creating enough heat to produce vapor. Now, if the problem had been vapor to hot, then yes.. that is where airflow becomes important. Fact is, if you have no vapor to begin with, discussing airflow is totally worthless information.
     
  22. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Yeah, mate... I dunno why so many people prefer to vape at or above .2 ohms on a single battery mech, but I suppose it's primarily because of the battery safety recommendation/guideline in cohort with an obsessive-compulsory preference for seriously outdated 20A batteries such as the Samsung 25R and in some cases Sony VTC4, or possibly even some rewrap brands with such a loyal following it doesn't just border on the edge of fanboyism, but instead it goes miles beyond that. Scaremongering also plays a part, as Mooch recommends to stay at or below the CDR, but he also adds that this recommendation is intended specifically for those who ask, and that we should just let them find their own path after that so, what really happens after that is the ohms nazis line themselves up in bunches right in front of where this path begins.
     
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  23. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Vapers who aren't advanced vapers should stay away from mechs regardless of ohms. Going above the CDR requires a certain level of expertise on some points that goes additionally on top of the advanced level.
     
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  24. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Fact is, discussing warmth of the vape without discussing airflow is totally worthless information. SO YOUR INFORMATION ABOUT THAT IS WORTHLESS. Get it? Guess not........
    ...
    ....
    .........
    .................
    ............................................
     
  25. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    Airflow has to do with COOLING the vapor.. not warming it.. you got no heat, you don't need to cool anything. All you are doing by arguing this simple fact is showing how little you know about it. I'm done arguing a point with a person to small minded to grasp a simple concept.
    Never mind hijacking a post, trying to turn the topic to airflow, when the post is about getting vapor in the first place. Your airflow has not one thing to do with vapor production. As I mentioned.. 33watts does not create enough heat on a 26g twisted coil at 0.41ohm to create any decent amount of vapor. In fact, it is barely above the no vapor at all point. So what you wanna do? Thin this out even further by adding air? Again.. get this through your head.. the topic is NOT about vape temperature, it is about vapor production.. and airflow has nothing to do with vapor production. Period, end of story.. DROP MIC.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  26. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Problem is the Pulse BF mod. Horrible voltage drop. I have one and tested it.

    I use .35 -.4 paralell SS316L coil on a Pico Squeeze with a Wasp nano and get a good vape.
    Using 25R cells.
    a bit hotter vape with VTC5A.
     
  27. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    LOL That's what I was saying way back at the start. But I wanted the OP to use the links to figure out his own build to get more watts and more vapor..
    I wouldn't even hint at a 0.12 build unless the new user were using a 30A battery. Once he knows where to look and how to read the charts, he can figure out for himself if his cell can handle those builds. Those charts also give information such as how fast the cell heats up under load, which tells how much time a person would have in case the power switch got stuck.
     
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  28. jwill

    jwill The Great King of Nothing VU Vendor VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team Reddit Exile

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  29. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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  30. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    I'm not trying to kick a dead horse. I'm not going to start name calling (albeit sometimes I really want to). I'm not claiming to know more than anyone else. I learn something new every day. If I don't understand I will say "I don't understand ". If I am wrong I am man enough to say so and apologize if necessary.

    That being said ...

    Misinformation about the safe operation of ANY vaping product is not only dangerous to vapers and the people around them but it is also highly detrimental to the industry as a whole.

    Now, I don't have the knowledge, yet, to discuss vaping at an atomic level. Most people don't but I have, I'd like to think, at least some semblance of common sense.

    Correct me if I'm wrong because the whole point to me being here is to LEARN, not puff up in my "knowitallism" and refuse correction...

    Airflow most definitely cools both the coil AND the vapor.

    Explaining mechanical mod safety CANNOT be done using temperature control theory so what mod I'm using has EVERYTHING to do with it.

    What is CDR?
    Continuous Discharge Rate. Key word being Continuous. Keeping in mind this is about mechanical mods. I know if my build is low enough that I can't just keep wailing away on it or I'm going to have some serious trouble. I can't CONTINUALLY keep the fire button pressed because it will destroy the battery internals and vent. However I CAN take a very brief 1 or 2 second pull without having any issues provided I don't repeatedly do this and cross into the chain vaping realm and over DISCHARGE the battery. After that 1 or 2 second pull ... set it down ... vape something else ... cool your engines so to speak.

    If I've said this once I've said it a million times ...

    I DO NOT and WILL NEVER suggest to someone else "Hey, you ought to build super subohm". That would be beyond irresponsible. PERIOD. I don't have a problem with discussing it with someone who has proven to me that they know what they're doing. Even then I won't suggest that they go "even lower". That's for them to decide.

    I want to learn and this thread taught quite a bit I assure you.
     
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  31. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    BTW
    Thank you @Carambrda for explaining a LOT. You shared a lot of knowledge in here and I appreciate that.
     
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  32. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Strawman argument. I never claimed airflow warms the vapor.
    Again, you were talking about the warmth of the vape. Airflow provides cooling to both the vapor and the coil so keep digging the hole.
    1 + 1 = 3
    I sincerely hope for everyone's sake that you ARE finished.
    You're the one who hijacked it by trying to turn the topic to warmth of the vape.
    Incorrect. Not going to re-explain it.
    What I wanna do is remind you that you were talking about the warmth of the vape.
    Have I told you you were talking about the warmth of the vape?
    You really should get through your head the fact you were talking about the warmth of the vape.
    Then why were you talking about the warmth of the vape?
    Incorrect.
    So basically, you were talking about the warmth of the vape.
     
  33. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    1 + 1 = 10 in binary.
     
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  34. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    The term "over-discharge" means to let the resting voltage of the cell (assuming we're talking about a typical round cell such as the Sony VTC5A) reach below 2.5V, which can be dangerous because these cells are rated to between 4.2V (the cell fully charged) and 2.5V (the cell fully discharged).

    On a single battery mech, the vape grows too weak long before the cell goes anywhere near as low as 2.5V resting voltage so the real problem with chain vaping is you're not giving the cell much time to cool down BETWEEN successive hits. Whereas, if you draw more amps by building to lower ohms on the mech or if you select a battery with a lower CDR rating (and especially if you do both at the same time), you're heating the battery faster DURING each hit. Above 45 degrees Celsius (or 113 degrees Fahrenheit) is where a cell starts aging faster than normal. By the time it reaches that high, in a copper or brass tube mech that has no insulating lining on the inside of the tube, typically you will feel something is getting a little warm in there. BUT... if something goes wrong with the mod like an accidental long button press or a malfunctioning button.

    Button either gets stuck or starts firing on its own like with the Thunderhead Creations Tauren before the manufacturer issued a replacement button when they had discovered it had a serious design flaw that was causing this to happen, a problem now fixed and that advanced vapers are supposed to always verify it doesn't exist before deciding to put the mod in their pocket with the battery still inside the mod, but anyway... you get the picture. Unknown factors like noobs thinking they are experts... not aiming at you, but you get the picture again (I hope... :D).

    As for going above the CDR, yes I agree we should NEVER recommend that to anyone who asks "how much is safe". There are no hard and fast numbers that either are safe or are unsafe to vape so, the CDR number was not picked because it is safe, but because it just seems like a reasonable number to recommend to new vapers to start. (That is, to start at or below the CDR and then just let them find their own path instead of start yelling at them that "they're going to blow their face off").

    Finally, I'd like to add... I know from spending a lot of my time with mech users meeting them in person frequently all the time, the vast majority of them aren't vaping at .2 ohms nor above that on a single battery mech. Rather, almost all of them are vaping above the CDR of their battery, usually around .1 ohm so, clearly, all the yelling about staying at or below the CDR is pretty useless in the end, and, a much better approach IMO would be to just explain in shiny details how to prevent overheating the battery as we've discussed, as anyone capable enough to understand how to always avoid creating a hard short in their mech should also be capable enough to connect with those exact details.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  35. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Just a note.
    When i speak of CDR I am talking Mooch tested CDR. Never believe Any rewrap label.
    They have been known to label a 9 amp cell at 20 amps or higher.
     
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  36. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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  37. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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  38. Kitsune

    Kitsune New Member

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    I should give it try again then, I always had problems with SS316L on a mech. As soon as the coil heated up, it was completely different.
    How do you build your coils? A bit lower than usual so it's on the sweet spot when heated?

    On a side note, "fast ramp up and super clean taste" is exactly why I moved to NI80 back then (I've been using SS316L in normal RTAs, no mech) and I liked the flavor and feel with Ni80 more, but I guess NI80 vs SS316L is something where 10 people will have 12 opinions.
     
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  39. Ralph_K

    Ralph_K Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Its only about a .01 ohm difference when SS316L is heated
     
  40. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Do not glow SS316l as hot as you would kanthal or NI80.
     
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  41. CactusFanaticus

    CactusFanaticus Silver Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Yeah it’s one of those subjective things, why I added “for me” Some may say the opposite they don’t like the taste of ss, everyone’s tastes are different but it is definitely worth a try. Advanced vape supply has very good SS, along with some others.

    It ohms a bit lower than N80, so take that into account when building. The resistance will rise a bit when dry burning/pulsing, but you don’t notice a difference when wicked and juiced up because it doesn’t get as hot as when pulsing so as said the resistance doesn’t change much at all during vaping.
     
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  42. Pony Tail

    Pony Tail Bronze Contributor Bronze Contributor

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    I second the motion of AVS. I use their triple core fused clapton wire (30X3/38). With a 4mm ID it makes series builds a lot easier. For my tastes anyway. Really happy with it.
     
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  43. Kitsune

    Kitsune New Member

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    Well I'm based in Germany so ordering vape supply from the US is out of the picture due to some regulations.
    We do have some great suppliers for coils and wire here though, so I'll definitely give it a shot.
    If everything fails I'll just order wire and build a Fused Clapton myself. My go-to Ni80 build is a 2x26ga core with a 40ga wrap.
    With SS316L and a dual coil setup, 5 wraps with a 3mm ID, that should be 0.10 ohm ... perfect for my Luxotic NC in parallel mode. :)

    After all my tastebuds might have changed in the past year and I might like SS316L even more now.

    Thanks for all the input!
     
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  44. gbalkam

    gbalkam Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee Reddit Exile

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    Usually, I don't use stainless steel as a core wire. The resistance is a bit lower than I care to go for a large coil build. True, the ramp up would be faster but only because the resistance is so much lower. Especially if you like dual coils. You can get just as good flavor on a kanthal or nichrome core with a stainless steel wraping wire. Core wire heats the SS wraps and the wraps vape the majority of the ejuice, which is where your flavor will come from anyway. Basically, just saying be careful of your resistance when using stainless steel as a core wire.
     
  45. SteveS45

    SteveS45 Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years ECF Refugee

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    If you know how to build it doesn't matter what wire you use only those who don't know how to build will give a warning where not warranted. Wire gauge will determine resistance so use the right size core wire. Good Luck
     
    Carambrda likes this.

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