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Why 90% of E-liquid on The Market Is a Rip-Off

VH fan

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Don't let your finger slip off the spool of Kanthal? Just trying to help. :D


Repeating to self out loud " Don't let your finger slip off the spool " , Don't let my finger slip off the spool " you know i like that , makes sense , thank you.


That was a big help and i can't believe i didn't think of that myself .


I'm giving you a very enthusiastic upload_2014-11-22_21-16-1.pngupload_2014-11-22_21-16-5.png
 

Talon4x4

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I'm in the process of prototyping a small enclosure for my kanthal disks to go into. Basically you insert your kanthal disk into the housing and then thread the kanthal into a small opening at the top then secured by a magnet or clamp. Then close the housing. Just pull as much kanthal as you'll need and the disk will spin freely in the housing keeping things tidy.

You know this is a product already?!? You wouldn't have to prototype anything, just copy their design. Its used to hold fishing line but people use it for their kanthal.
 

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Chainvapor

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Whats fantastic for one may be horrific to another , most usually won't go for that big of a bottle until they know they like it.

Yeah, some might be put off by the size of the bottles, but for the price, I think most would be willing to take a chance. Considering that lots of vendors charge $20 for a 30ml bottle of juice (half the size of the Crimmy juice at the same price), Crimmy prices really are outstanding. Will everyone like it?.......Of course not. But I think everyone should part with $20 to find out, because if they do not like it, they can sell or trade it on the Dr. Crimmy facebook page.

CV :)
 

muth

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my first attempt tasted great,.....for a few days, then the salted caramel really took over! but thankfully I was given a tip as to how to roll the salted caramel flavor back and smooth it out, so now I have 1000ml of the salted caramel, cheesecake, blueberry and Graham cracker juice hehehehe.
I've got some caramel that's screaming it's bloody head off! How did you roll it back? If it's not too much to explain. Thanks
 

msgnyc

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You know this is a product already?!? You wouldn't have to prototype anything, just copy their design. Its used to hold fishing line but people use it for their kanthal.
Nice. May have to grab me one and modify it slightly. Just want it to hold a single disk and act as a coiling jig. Ill see what they got. Didnt even think about fishing line dispensers. Thanks
 
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InMyImage

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I've got some caramel that's screaming it's bloody head off! How did you roll it back? If it's not too much to explain. Thanks
If you know the percentages of everything that you used, and you know the volume of what you have, punch the numbers into eJuiceMeUp and then calculate what the current values should be. Then write them down.

Next start changing the percentage of the ingredient that you want to mute down and then bump up the volume until the amount required for said ingredient is equal to the amount currently in the existing mix. Then add the difference between what is currently in the mix and what needs to be in the mix for everything else, and badda bing badda boom. Tweaked juice :)
 

Celtic Fog

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I've got some caramel that's screaming it's bloody head off! How did you roll it back? If it's not too much to explain. Thanks
i had made 500ml with around 19%flavoring (around 6% of it was salted caramel) so i made another 120ml of unflavored nic juice and added it to the large batch, toned it down, then I added around 2% blueberry and around another 1% cotton candy to sweeten it up a little. now it tastes really good =)
 

muth

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i had made 500ml with around 19%flavoring (around 6% of it was salted caramel) so i made another 120ml of unflavored nic juice and added it to the large batch, toned it down, then I added around 2% blueberry and around another 1% cotton candy to sweeten it up a little. now it tastes really good =)
Thanks Mr Fog
 

pdxjlb

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my first attempt tasted great,.....for a few days, then the salted caramel really took over! but thankfully I was given a tip as to how to roll the salted caramel flavor back and smooth it out, so now I have 1000ml of the salted caramel, cheesecake, blueberry and Graham cracker juice hehehehe.
What "tip" was it that you were given?? Pay if forward please!! Sounds wonderful. Which Salted Caramel flavor are you working with??
 

Celtic Fog

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What "tip" was it that you were given?? Pay if forward please!! Sounds wonderful. Which Salted Caramel flavor are you working with??
oh yeah, it was graham cracker that I added, that and cotton candy, I lowered the percentage amount of the caramel by adding unflavored nic juice, then added graham cracker and cotton candy to the mix.
 

pdxjlb

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oh yeah, it was graham cracker that I added, that and cotton candy, I lowered the percentage amount of the caramel by adding unflavored nic juice, then added graham cracker and cotton candy to the mix.
Ah yes the beautiful solution of dilution. :D Thank you Sir!
 

supermarket

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I only read the first page, and I can't tell if the OP is being serious, or trolling.

He goes on this HUGE rant, talking about how 90% of e-liquid vendors are rip offs because they sell their e-liquid for a certain price. THEN, he goes on to sell e-liquid for a SIMILAR price to many great vendors, yet he explains "why he has to sell it at $13 for 30ml". Kind of ironic, right? Insulting 90% of ALL e-liquid vendors , the plugging your OWN business, and pretending to do it out of the kindness of your heart.

I don't think I've ever read a post on this forum yet, besides his, that claims to do something out of the kindness of his heart, for the entire vape community, and yet at the same time, insulting such a HUGE portion of the community.

He also insults our intelligence by insinuating that we are too stupid , or lacking basic math skills to know how inexpensive DIY is.

Do some e-liquid vendors over-charge? absolutely. However, there are HUNDREDS of great e-liquid vendors, charging right around 50cents per 1mL, or cheaper, that make fantastic juice. For him to own a business, plug it, and then pull some arbitrary number , like 90% of all e-liquid vendors are rip offs out of his butt is insulting to ALL of us.

Sorry bud, I would never order from you.
 

fq06

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That fishing line case is cool, but I just throw the wide rubber band that's wrapped around broccoli on the spool. The wire stays right where it should and costs $0.00 :D

And yeah, op didn't go as well as planned... kind of a backfire.
 
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muth

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I only read the first page, and I can't tell if the OP is being serious, or trolling.

He goes on this HUGE rant, talking about how 90% of e-liquid vendors are rip offs because they sell their e-liquid for a certain price. THEN, he goes on to sell e-liquid for a SIMILAR price to many great vendors, yet he explains "why he has to sell it at $13 for 30ml". Kind of ironic, right? Insulting 90% of ALL e-liquid vendors , the plugging your OWN business, and pretending to do it out of the kindness of your heart.

I don't think I've ever read a post on this forum yet, besides his, that claims to do something out of the kindness of his heart, for the entire vape community, and yet at the same time, insulting such a HUGE portion of the community.

He also insults our intelligence by insinuating that we are too stupid , or lacking basic math skills to know how inexpensive DIY is.

Do some e-liquid vendors over-charge? absolutely. However, there are HUNDREDS of great e-liquid vendors, charging right around 50cents per 1mL, or cheaper, that make fantastic juice. For him to own a business, plug it, and then pull some arbitrary number , like 90% of all e-liquid vendors are rip offs out of his butt is insulting to ALL of us.

Sorry bud, I would never order from you.
You are not the first member on this forum to notice this. Thank you for the helpful observation.
 

freemind

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When people willfully pay the asking price of a product, it is NEVER a rip off, scam, or "outrageous" profits. It's called a business transaction.

The OP'er is ignorant of over heads, operating costs, variable and fixed costs, profit margins, etc. Being a legitimate AND profitable business means you have to charge for it. Only the business owner themselves can decide and know what price will be.

I own a business (service related, not related to vaping or e-juice), and I find this completely unreasonable, idiotic, and just plain stupid, that another business owner would say so many stupid things. Better get your head screwed on straight or you will find out why most start up businesses FAIL.

I could likely teach the OP'er a thing or two about marketing, but I think it would be far over his head. He has already misused his opportunity to build value in his company. Instead, he has made a negative moment of truth. People remember negative things more intensely then they usually do positive things.

Talk about stepping on your own weenie.
 

MKPM

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I adore my $22 a bottle Merkury juice. With very few exceptions it is all I am willing to buy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

No Ash More Cash

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While on Vacation me and my wife hit several vape shops and tried ALOT of different juices. She really like the Castle long by Five Pawns. I will say that I like a couple of their juices, but not at 27.50 for a 30 ml bottle. I did some looking around and found a clone recipe here on VU. While the recipe is not identical it is very close and costs about $2 for a 30ml. I normally keep 2 100 ml bottles on hand, when I open one I mix another to start it steeping.
Your shitting me right?
 

InMyImage

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That fishing line case is cool, but I just throw the wide rubber band that's wrapped around broccoli on the spool. The wire stays right where it should and costs $0.00 :D

And yeah, op didn't go as well as planned... kind of a backfire.
These are some of my favorite kinds of threads :)
 

Botboy141

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the profit made from juice which apparently from my numbers can theoretically be as much as a 2000% return on investment
I'm honestly baffled as to how you came to these calculations.

To run an operation of the size and scale that these 'major California manufacturers' are running, costs them an assload more in expenses than just $1.03 per bottle. They have their ingredient cost which we all do, but there is tons more to it than that. The standard across all industries in the world is to desire a 300-400% ROI on manufacturing. If you are making an original product, it should be sold for at least 4x your cost. This is standard in all forms of manufacturing.

Now let's take a look at the load of expenses that you skipped that you claim are going 'straight into the pockets of these rich businessmen'.

First you have research and development, while some companies have obviously spent more money on this than others, I won't even bother to speculate on the R&D costs for a company like Five Pawns.

Next you have manufacturing costs. Most of this is being outsourced to companies like Molecule Labs and California Vapor who basically, take a companies recipe, and they are contracted to label the bottles, source the materials, and add it to the bottles in the appropriate quantities while maintaining an FDA approved lab and paying staff that meet that criteria. Expect your cost per bottle to increase to over $1.50 when outsourcing to something like this. If you don't outsource to an organization like this, you'll never be able to supply juice on a nationwide scale as these companies do.

Third, we have infrastructure costs. Insurance, phones, utilities, web sites, warehousing, logistics and all the associated employees. You can easily estimate this for a large scale company like 'Suicide Bunny' to be in excess of $50,000 monthly. I'd roughly expect to increase their per bottle cost by at least $1.00. This brings us up to $2.50 per bottle.

Fourth, we have sales. Suicide Bunny employs a full time sales team across the country. They have local reps, phone reps, web managers, advertising, marketing, design...After speaking with a sales rep for suicide bunny I can tell you that their commission is $0.20 per bottle + salary. There is additional infrastructure and management cost associated here. Let's add on another $0.50 per bottle. Ok so now their cost to bring their product to market is $3.00 per bottle. Suicide Bunny sells their 30ml bottles at wholesale pricing to B&M's @ $12.00 per bottle. They are achieving 400% mark up, manufacturing industry standard.

The local B&M then marks it up accordingly from there to achieve their typical 100% margin (less than that in retail and you're committing retail suicide).

These costs are in no way different than any other industry on the planet.

Would love to know where you achieved this 2000% ROI idea from.

TL;DR: 2000% ROI is a joke, manufacturing standard is 300-400% ROI and that's what we're seeing in the vaping industry. Basic business principles.
 

TheWestPole

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Yeah ..... What a joke. Hey op.... Your talking to the wrong crowd here.

I wish I could quote that line from the jack Nicholson movie " as good as it gets" when he's talking to the neighbor lady.


Talk about slinging some bullshit. If I didn't DIY , I guess I wouldn't mind paying retail for it, but don't piss down my back and tell Me it's raining.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"Sell crazy somewhere else. We're all full up here." Or something like that?
 

TheWestPole

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DIY bears little relation to the juice business or the juice market except the relation of refusal. It doesn't really have to make good monetary sense, let along compete on price or any other objective criteria.

A few weeks back if figured my cost of ingredients. Up front fixed costs aside (they are minimal) and buying all consumables retail, my juice comes to a total ingredient cost of just under $.10 per ml or $3 per 30 ml (at 25 mg nic, which is declining). So for my use of ~150 ml per month, my cost of ingredients comes to ~$15. Okay that's a savings of ~$135/mo. over cigs and ~$50/mo. over decent cheap juice. Woo hoo, right? Nope. If I think of the time I put in it begins to look, as economy, like false economy. If I consider that time in terms of the income it could represent I'm already in the hole. Worse, if I think of that time as a percentage of my monthly nut, doubly in the hole.

So why do it? First, the negatives I just mentioned are basically false. I am not a business. I am not stealing from income hours when I'm making juice. And I am not adding to my monthly nut when I use 3 sq. ft. of the kitchen table differently. The positives? We all know them, and they are very similar to the positives of buying ingredients to make some of our meals at home rather than buying everything we eat pre-prepared. DIY is qualitatively superior in many ways. It's empowering to learn to do for yourself, even in matters of luxury like inhaling pleasing vapors. You can whip up a batch of what you want when you want it. You can tune what you consume to your tastes, and as they change adjust on the fly. You can get off your consumer ass and make what you want rather than wait for somebody else to make it for you. That is all too infrequently an option we are able to choose.

It's a minor matter, of course, but nonetheless a matter of how you want to live. The figures? How the hell do you figure the cost/benefit of how you want to live in terms a business must use? I'm a thrifty bugger most of the time and a total profligate much more than I care to admit. In either extreme and in between, I would like to reduce the amount of resentments I carry around toward those entities which make a profit off of my living. DIY juice making, while a legit budgetary concern for some, is more of a choice enhancer and resentment reducer for me. ;)
 
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Whiskey

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II'm not sure that I agree with your opinion of "average" use for someone that is simply vaping to quit smoking. Quitters aren't the ones that sub ohm, or vape 60ml per week. Those folks are hobbyists. People who are trying to quit smoking typically use a higher level of nic than 3 or 6 mg, and therefore use a good bit less than 60ml per week. My point is, quitters vape less eLiquid with a higher nic content to satisfy their urge to smoke. Hobbyists vape much more eLiquid at a lower nic level because they are vaping for the enjoyment of vaping. Two different types of vapers. Vaping is cheaper for one type, more expensive for the other. It is certainly not a fairness or a class issue. As with everything else, it is a personal behavior issue.

.

Huge point right here I fall under this
 

OB61887

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If any of you are looking for juice at a great price I would suggest you check out Dr. Crimmy's V-liquid. It is $20 for a 60ml bottle and $30 for a 125ml bottle. I have used about 5 or 6 of his flavors so far and they are EXCELLENT. The Overdose line is his specialty and is a French Vanilla Custard that is very good. Anyway, if you are looking for some great juice at a great price........Check them out. - HERE

Happy Vaping Everyone!
CV :)
Just got my juice from these guys. They are still steeping but he sent me 3 extra juices. 1 60ml and 2 125 ml.
 
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StrappedKaos

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I second the rubber band on kanthal spool, it works wonders. I put it in the same direction as wire on the spool and it holds with enough tension to allow me to unwrap but not allow it to go crazy. Glad im not only one that does this.
 

zaroba

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Pretty much anything you buy in a store will be a ripoff price when compared to buying wholesale and building yourself.
Ever see the cost of building your own computer from parts vs buying a comparable model at a major outlet store?
A store bought computer could easily cost you 2x to 4x the cost to build your own PC with the same specs.

How about growing your own food vs buying it?
Building stuff out of wood and screws vs buying?
Doing household repairs or improvements vs hiring a contractor?
Going to a junkyard for auto parts and fixing your car vs going to a mechanic?
The list is endless.

It has little to do with knowing how to do it, it is just that a vast, vast, majority of people in the world would rather pay for the convenience of having stuff made for them without having to do the work themselves, or just don't know how much they can save with a bit of DIY. That's the world we live in though, convenience drives market sales in this fast paced modern world with everything at your finger tips. People will pay extra to shop at a close by crappy grocery store vs driving 15 miles to a beautiful clean store with lower prices, simply because it is convenient. If this wasn't true, every gas station in the country would have the same price for fuel, but prices can vary wildly in a radius of just a few miles.
 
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Count Vapula

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It's a fun hobby. Only time my chef and chemist skills ever met. Most of the time people are paying for a well rounded taste, which you will never get from one base flavour. Just like music, food and drink, its the proper notes and harmony that makes it work

Some don't have the palette or the patience. It's a convenience driven society, and there is always a price tag attached with that.

Hard to believe some people vape 30-60ml a day, think I do 10-15 a week. Although I can't much at work :(

I don't agree with some vendor prices, as it is unsteeped and who knows where they sourced the raw materials from

Also been sitting in plastic containers leeching hardener, as all the solvents used are fat soluble.

I'm just starting to supply locally for friends and coworkers. They know they are getting the same stuff that I vape and for half the price of the store, so its win-win. I won't get rich, but that's not really my goal either lol
 

backdoc

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OP, Did I miss something? you rambled in one long paragraph about how it costs about a buck(including the bottle)to make 30ml of ejuice and then condemn the high price vendors.....I checked your site and I personally think you are way overpriced, id say you cut your own throat with your disjointed rant
 

zaroba

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*looks at site*

lol, that is kinda funny.
I have seen plenty of other websites that sell for less.
Of course, I have also seen places that sell for higher as well.
 

Tony Da Taiga

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Placed an order on the 7th.... 4 days later still no word about my juice. I messaged them and nothing...
 

Tony Da Taiga

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I just want either the juice I ordered or my money back...
 

Drone

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You're right Tony, I was just joking a bit. I think the OP should have put a few bucks into customer service in his business plan. Of course, that might have raised the juice price.

There are lots of good juices available for a bargain if you look. Like Yaeliq from Isreal. VaporJoes site just had a deal for 10.00 for 100ml and this company has some seriously good juice. Might still be going on, there normal price is 18.00 for 100ml which is still great. They are in Israel, so there is a 10.00 shipping charge. But still, 100ml for 20.00 shipped is a great price. And they have lots of good reviews including a Street Shoutout from PBusardo for Saber's Blood. Worth a look for good juice at a good price. If you do get juice from them buy a couple different ones and it is still just 10.00 shipping.
 

Tony Da Taiga

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Cool! Thanks for the tip. I will check them out :D
 

nightshard

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Most manufacturers take advantage of the consumers stupidity/laziness/lack of interest.

Same as in most other products.
Nothing new here.
 
My goal is to open a vaping lounge/shop that will offer courses in everything DIY from juice to making your own mod. I will also carry what is being used currently,the tried and true equipment as well. Example I would have a course that taught coil building and wicking of rda's and rta's and the price of it would include a choice of dripper or dripper tank couple different wire gauges a couple different wicking materials and juice. I think it would be a hit. I'm still checking into funding sources right now.
That is exactly my vision of what a shop should be! Was telling that to a shop owner the other day as he has like over 2000 sq. ft. mostly empty. His eyes and body language said "not interested", so I left the empty shop empty handed as he had nothing I was interested in buying.
The shop would always sell to the folks that are not into DIY and would become more of a "destination" for vapers. The DIY folks could buy from you, you could hold classes, sell supplies etc. You might even have the mixing stations and sell the ingredients so they could mix and go, for the folks who can't/don't want to have the goods at home. I would also have building stations with iPads (secured of course) where someone could come in and tune into a coil build youtube from the likes of Rip Tripper etc. When you open, I hope its in the Las Vegas area
 

Tony Da Taiga

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Finally got through to them. They were having server issues and are expanding also. My juice will be getting shipped out tomorrow :D
 

Browncoat

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Most manufacturers take advantage of the consumers stupidity/laziness/lack of interest.

Same as in most other products.
Nothing new here.

Like everything else, there's different price and quality tiers. Like everything else, sometimes the prices don't match up to the quality. It's a free market economy, if you don't like a product or company, take your business elsewhere. As with any consumer product, quality (and in this case, taste) is subjective. But the key word here isn't necessarily quality.

I can recognize that Apple makes quality products. But you couldn't give me an iPad or an iPhone. Therefore, Apple products have no value to me. Value and quality are two very different things, and people often confuse the two. Value = relative worth.

High price + low quality = low value.
Low price + high quality = high value.

High price + high quality = high value
High price + high quality = low value

Those last two are where a lot of arguments are born. Take Five Pawns for example:

I don't think anyone would dispute that Five Pawns is a quality e-juice maker and company. However, some people value their products, and some don't, very similar to Apple. Five Pawns is a niche/designer product. All of the ballyhoo surrounding their juice with the fancy labeling and product showroom, commands a premium price tag. It gives their company an air of exclusivity. Some customers value that, others do not.
 

vapedick

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Like everything else, there's different price and quality tiers. Like everything else, sometimes the prices don't match up to the quality. It's a free market economy, if you don't like a product or company, take your business elsewhere. As with any consumer product, quality (and in this case, taste) is subjective. But the key word here isn't necessarily quality.

I can recognize that Apple makes quality products. But you couldn't give me an iPad or an iPhone. Therefore, Apple products have no value to me. Value and quality are two very different things, and people often confuse the two. Value = relative worth.

High price + low quality = low value.
Low price + high quality = high value.

High price + high quality = high value
High price + high quality = low value

Those last two are where a lot of arguments are born. Take Five Pawns for example:

I don't think anyone would dispute that Five Pawns is a quality e-juice maker and company. However, some people value their products, and some don't, very similar to Apple. Five Pawns is a niche/designer product. All of the ballyhoo surrounding their juice with the fancy labeling and product showroom, commands a premium price tag. It gives their company an air of exclusivity. Some customers value that, others do not.

Really, you wouldn't let me give you an iPhone 6 or an iPad Air? Why? I really want to give you a few of each. But never mind. I'll keep them. Quality and value in those things. But since you're so opinionated I'll sell them
 

vapedick

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Yes, really. I don't care for Apple products. Never have, never will.
Obviously,you have never used any. Sorry. Not even for free??? That's just shocking. You know you could sell it and buy some windows phones...... Or androids... Or a blackberry or 3. Or some VAPE gear. I couldn't even GIVE you one or 2??
 

freemind

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Obviously,you have never used any. Sorry. Not even for free??? That's just shocking. You know you could sell it and buy some windows phones...... Or androids... Or a blackberry or 3. Or some VAPE gear. I couldn't even GIVE you one or 2??
Not everyone is sold on the Apple B.S.
Apple is a marketing company that sells products. If Apple were truly "THE" company, Samsung would never have stomped their asses in the phone market.

It's a preference things. I never have liked Apple stuff. This from a guy who learned programing on a PET Commodore.
 

OB61887

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While I prefer the galaxy line over apple, I don't think it is fair to say they stomped them. Apple never tried to get into the affordable phone market. In 2013 they had 1/3rd the phones of Samsung, but they sell for far more and to a niche market that is highly devoted. Apple puts out a quality product. If it is worth it or not is up to the consumer.

Now that I think about it, that is very similar to juice... ;)
 

freemind

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I would not say the Galaxy line is "affordable". They are on par with pricing to Apple. Look at the price to outright buy an S5 or a Note4?

They are direct competitors. Yes, Samsung stomped them in performance. Samsung is poised to stomp them in the tablet market as well.
 

zaroba

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...most of the time your just paying for the brand name and can get just as much use out of something far cheaper.
Clothing is a perfect example of this. Pay $100 for Jeans with a Tommy Hilfiger label or pay $10 for pretty much the same pair of jeans at walmart without a fancy label. Lots of times the there is literally no difference between 'generic' and 'brand name' items besides a label and packaging, especially when it comes to food products.


Hey, Vapedick, still handing out those apple products? I'll take as many as you have for offer. I have no desire to use them personally, but I'd be glad to take them for the sake of selling them to people who are willing to pay more for something just because it is Apple brand :p
 
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Browncoat

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I didn't mean to start an Apple/PC war here, but that's kind of the point of this entire thread, because it applies to juice as well. We all have preferences and perceived value.

This same debate rages on camera forums (Nikon vs. Canon), car forums (Ford vs. Chevy), and tons of other products that have a large following due to brand loyalty and recognition. I dunno if the womenfolk have a make-up forum, but if so, I would imagine there's a Mary Kay vs. Avon debate raging right now, too.

I could go into a page-long tirade about why I don't like Apple, but it doesn't matter anyway. Apple is doing just fine without me.
 

vapedick

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Not everyone is sold on the Apple B.S.
Apple is a marketing company that sells products. If Apple were truly "THE" company, Samsung would never have stomped their asses in the phone market.

It's a preference things. I never have liked Apple stuff. This from a guy who learned programing on a PET Commodore.
Not even for free to resell? That was my point. You are such a hater you wouldn't even take it for free??? That's what you said.... Or someone said. I'm lost in all this free apple hatred.
 

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